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This is a question from the Terran perspective of this build, is it possible to get two barracks instead of a reactor, and have the two barracks by the ramp to disguise the 1-1-1 build? Or would you not have enough minerals to hit the timing window? It seems this build would be more gas heavy then minerals?
mlg spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +Boxer vs. incontrol game 1 at mlg, Boxer let incontrol's probe see a second rax which he proceeded to cancel after his marine popped. I don't know how much it threw off incontrol (who was destroyed) but that is an option.
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Impressive guide mate!
Very well thought out and constructed. I should be able to better handle this all in on the ladder next time XD
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On August 02 2011 20:18 sleepingdog wrote:
Good write-up - I don't necessarily like the one gate robo fe since you don't need to start immortal-production that early....but then again I have currently no idea what would be the best way to beat this build and will therefore just shut up.
I used to think the same thing, but I'm pretty insistent on getting out two observers, so I think it suits me. Also, if I make the wrong read while scouting and hit get by a 2 rax build instead, I will only have to delay my nexus. This is the reason why I think 1 Gate - Robo - FE is a bit safer.
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On August 02 2011 15:04 RoboBob wrote:
Really solid guide. I play T, and I gotta agree with you that the biggest mistake P can make vs 1-1-1 is to make too many Stalkers. With 1-1-1 we have access to so many units that shred Stalkers...Marauders, Tanks, Banshees, Ghosts.
How do you respond to Hellions though?
Personally the opening I do the most with 1-1-1 is blueflame drop into Banshees. Because Banshees tend to kill everything that Hellions cant, and I rarely see Stargate because Cloak forces Robo. At a first glance I would think it would be tough to fend off drops with 1 gate Stalker Sentry Sentry 2x Observer. Even if you spot it in advance and save all your probes you'll still probably lose both Sentries.
You bring up a good point -- I haven't seen much of the helion play, but I know that it can definitely poke holes in this strategy. I suppose it comes down to crisis management (as most encounters with helions do) in regards to saving your workers, placing good forcefields, and warping in enough stalkers to shut it down.
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On August 02 2011 12:08 itsTheSituatioN wrote:
One problem i see with this counter is that you cannot really differentiate from a reactor first 2rax or 1-1-1 in the early game.
All you will see is marines, and the 1 gas.
If you go 1gate nexus into robo, and the terran was actually doing a 2rax, you will lose your nexus and probably behind.
Do you think the faster robo is that critical to holding this off? or would 1gate nexus into 3gate before robo be better overall?
edit: reread OP for scouting tips
i don't know if the initial stalker poke will be enough to reveal the marauder for 2rax, most likely you'll just see 5 marines
I don't actually recommend the stalker poke at at the ramp if you cannot rule out a 2rax (concussive shell)... I think its much safer to simply have it at a xel'naga watch tower. That's why I prefer the 1 Gate - Robo - FE: you will be on top of your ramp for longer, and you will probably not have to go through cancelling your nexus.
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On August 02 2011 12:08 itsTheSituatioN wrote:
One problem i see with this counter is that you cannot really differentiate from a reactor first 2rax or 1-1-1 in the early game.
All you will see is marines, and the 1 gas.
If you go 1gate nexus into robo, and the terran was actually doing a 2rax, you will lose your nexus and probably behind.
Do you think the faster robo is that critical to holding this off? or would 1gate nexus into 3gate before robo be better overall?
edit: reread OP for scouting tips
i don't know if the initial stalker poke will be enough to reveal the marauder for 2rax, most likely you'll just see 5 marines
When I do this build I continually chrono out stalkers out of my first gateway. If my zealot/stalker poke sees something like 5 marines behind a wall and I back off, I wait for my 2nd stalker and poke again. Terran cannot hold off continuously chrono'ed stalkers unless they get a bunker or have a 2nd rax and must show their marauder to defend.
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On August 02 2011 20:37 Perfi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 20:32 iamke55 wrote:On August 02 2011 19:46 Perfi wrote:
TheBest has just raped CreatorPrime in Code A Qualifiers, using the 1-1-1 Marine/Tank/Banshee all in build on Xel'Naga Caverns. Creator engaged him in the middle off 3gates and 1 robo (doing 1gate expo followed by robo, then 2 more gateways) with some (~5) stalkers), like 4 chronoboosted Immortals and a bunch of zealots. Wolf claimed that you cannot hold the all in off without colossi. Any opinions on that?
TheBest engaged at roughly 9:40, with 4 tanks, siege mode and 3 banshees. At 9:40 you can only have 1 colossus. I think I'd rather have immortals and gateway units for that specific timing. I know, I wasn't agreeing with Wolf there, just quoting him for those who didn't see the game.
Yea Wolf is wrong here.
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On August 02 2011 23:40 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 20:18 sleepingdog wrote:
Good write-up - I don't necessarily like the one gate robo fe since you don't need to start immortal-production that early....but then again I have currently no idea what would be the best way to beat this build and will therefore just shut up. I used to think the same thing, but I'm pretty insistent on getting out two observers, so I think it suits me. Also, if I make the wrong read while scouting and hit get by a 2 rax build instead, I won't have to cancel my nexus. This is the reason why I think 1 Gate - Robo - FE is a bit safer.
I don't want to sound offensive at all, but how are an earlier robo and 2 observers supposed to hold a 2 rax? Last time I checked, observers actually did very little DPS to marine/marauder 
Normally the 2 rax hits very early, definitely before you can get an immortal out if you produce 2 observers. Also a 2 rax shouldn't reveal itself before the player starts moving out.
In fact, I've always been of the opinion that gate/robo FE is rather terrible vs 2 rax aggression - vs 2 rax I want to get my warpgate asap and have 3 gates ready when it finishes to clean up with my triple-stalker-warp + lots of probe-support.
Maybe I just don't get what you mean, could you elaborate in howfar the robo helps you to keep the nexus alive vs 2 rax?
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On August 03 2011 00:10 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 23:40 QTIP. wrote:On August 02 2011 20:18 sleepingdog wrote:
Good write-up - I don't necessarily like the one gate robo fe since you don't need to start immortal-production that early....but then again I have currently no idea what would be the best way to beat this build and will therefore just shut up. I used to think the same thing, but I'm pretty insistent on getting out two observers, so I think it suits me. Also, if I make the wrong read while scouting and hit get by a 2 rax build instead, I won't have to cancel my nexus. This is the reason why I think 1 Gate - Robo - FE is a bit safer. I don't want to sound offensive at all, but how are an earlier robo and 2 observers supposed to hold a 2 rax? Last time I checked, observers actually did very little DPS to marine/marauder Normally the 2 rax hits very early, definitely before you can get an immortal out if you produce 2 observers. Also a 2 rax shouldn't reveal itself before the player starts moving out. In fact, I've always been of the opinion that gate/robo FE is rather terrible vs 2 rax aggression - vs 2 rax I want to get my warpgate asap and have 3 gates ready when it finishes to clean up with my triple-stalker-warp + lots of probe-support. Maybe I just don't get what you mean, could you elaborate in howfar the robo helps you to keep the nexus alive vs 2 rax?
I open Stalker - sentry - sentry. 2 sentries is completely capable of holding a 2 Rax until your WG Finishes, and you can definitely kill a good portion of it without any losses if the Terran is dumb enough to come up your ramp. More importantly, you should be able to spot the 2 Rax coming across the map with your stalker at a Xel'naga tower (you can throw up a 2nd gate now), and you'll know that you will have to delay your Nexus a bit. If the Terran loiters at the bottom of your ramp, you do not need a second observer, quickly chrono your first immortal. A single immortal can break any kind of "2 rax contain" or "bunker contain" strategy.
My two observer suggestion is really only if you expect the 1-1-1. You are correct, 2 Rax will crush a 1 Gate - Robo - FE. If I can rule out 1-1-1 through scouting, then I will almost always do an aggressive 1 Gate - Nexus - 2 Gates like yourself. I only suggest the 1 Gate - Robo - FE when you aren't sure of what to expect or you know 1-1-1 is coming.
You bring up a good point though, my guide isn't very clear about this. I added a *** notifying readers that the builds I suggest are not optimal vs 2 rax openers. If a 2 rax can be verified, 1 Gate - Expo - 2 gates or 2 gate Robo are better builds.
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On August 03 2011 00:21 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 00:10 sleepingdog wrote:On August 02 2011 23:40 QTIP. wrote:On August 02 2011 20:18 sleepingdog wrote:
Good write-up - I don't necessarily like the one gate robo fe since you don't need to start immortal-production that early....but then again I have currently no idea what would be the best way to beat this build and will therefore just shut up. I used to think the same thing, but I'm pretty insistent on getting out two observers, so I think it suits me. Also, if I make the wrong read while scouting and hit get by a 2 rax build instead, I won't have to cancel my nexus. This is the reason why I think 1 Gate - Robo - FE is a bit safer. I don't want to sound offensive at all, but how are an earlier robo and 2 observers supposed to hold a 2 rax? Last time I checked, observers actually did very little DPS to marine/marauder Normally the 2 rax hits very early, definitely before you can get an immortal out if you produce 2 observers. Also a 2 rax shouldn't reveal itself before the player starts moving out. In fact, I've always been of the opinion that gate/robo FE is rather terrible vs 2 rax aggression - vs 2 rax I want to get my warpgate asap and have 3 gates ready when it finishes to clean up with my triple-stalker-warp + lots of probe-support. Maybe I just don't get what you mean, could you elaborate in howfar the robo helps you to keep the nexus alive vs 2 rax? I open Stalker - sentry - sentry. 2 sentries is completely capable of holding a 2 Rax until your WG Finishes, and you can definitely kill a good portion of it without any losses if the Terran is dumb enough to come up your ramp. More importantly, you should be able to spot the 2 Rax coming across the map with your stalker at a Xel'naga tower (you can throw up a 2nd gate now), and you'll know that you will have to delay your Nexus a bit. If the Terran loiters at the bottom of your ramp, you do not need a second observer, quickly chrono your first immortal. A single immortal can break any kind of "2 rax contain" or "bunker contain" strategy. My two observer suggestion is really only if you expect the 1-1-1. You are correct, 2 Rax will crush a 1 Gate - Robo - FE, if your Nexus is already up. If I can rule out 1-1-1 through scouting, then I will almost always do an aggressive 3 Gate FE like yourself. I only suggest the 1 Gate - Robo - FE when you aren't sure of what to expect or you know 1-1-1 is coming.
Maybe there was a bit of an understanding, but I wasn't trying to advertise a 3 gate FE but a one gate FE without a robo before nexus. 
If the map is suitable for a one gate FE, then I think there's no reason to build the robo before the nexus. I agree with pretty much everything you've said until it comes to the immortal. You can hold/break a 2 rax pressure without any problems if you constantly chrono your warpgate tech and throw down 2 more gates that finish just in time...it's the standard "HuK"-expo that has been discussed for a really long time now.
This is exactly why I don't like the robo - the robo is actually a liability, because it's 200/100 (and possibly the observer too) that could be spent in gateway-units + gateways.
EDIT: clarified
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On August 03 2011 00:33 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 00:21 QTIP. wrote:On August 03 2011 00:10 sleepingdog wrote:On August 02 2011 23:40 QTIP. wrote:On August 02 2011 20:18 sleepingdog wrote:
Good write-up - I don't necessarily like the one gate robo fe since you don't need to start immortal-production that early....but then again I have currently no idea what would be the best way to beat this build and will therefore just shut up. I used to think the same thing, but I'm pretty insistent on getting out two observers, so I think it suits me. Also, if I make the wrong read while scouting and hit get by a 2 rax build instead, I won't have to cancel my nexus. This is the reason why I think 1 Gate - Robo - FE is a bit safer. I don't want to sound offensive at all, but how are an earlier robo and 2 observers supposed to hold a 2 rax? Last time I checked, observers actually did very little DPS to marine/marauder Normally the 2 rax hits very early, definitely before you can get an immortal out if you produce 2 observers. Also a 2 rax shouldn't reveal itself before the player starts moving out. In fact, I've always been of the opinion that gate/robo FE is rather terrible vs 2 rax aggression - vs 2 rax I want to get my warpgate asap and have 3 gates ready when it finishes to clean up with my triple-stalker-warp + lots of probe-support. Maybe I just don't get what you mean, could you elaborate in howfar the robo helps you to keep the nexus alive vs 2 rax? I open Stalker - sentry - sentry. 2 sentries is completely capable of holding a 2 Rax until your WG Finishes, and you can definitely kill a good portion of it without any losses if the Terran is dumb enough to come up your ramp. More importantly, you should be able to spot the 2 Rax coming across the map with your stalker at a Xel'naga tower (you can throw up a 2nd gate now), and you'll know that you will have to delay your Nexus a bit. If the Terran loiters at the bottom of your ramp, you do not need a second observer, quickly chrono your first immortal. A single immortal can break any kind of "2 rax contain" or "bunker contain" strategy. My two observer suggestion is really only if you expect the 1-1-1. You are correct, 2 Rax will crush a 1 Gate - Robo - FE, if your Nexus is already up. If I can rule out 1-1-1 through scouting, then I will almost always do an aggressive 3 Gate FE like yourself. I only suggest the 1 Gate - Robo - FE when you aren't sure of what to expect or you know 1-1-1 is coming. Maybe there was a bit of an understanding, but I wasn't trying to advertise a 3 gate FE but a one gate FE without a robo before nexus. If the map is suitable for a one gate FE, then I think there's no reason to build the robo before the nexus. I agree with pretty much everything you've said until it comes to the immortal. You can hold/break a 2 rax pressure without any problems if you constantly chrono your warpgate tech and throw down 2 more gates that finish just in time...it's the standard "HuK"-expo that has been discussed for a really long time now. This is exactly why I don't like the robo - the robo is actually a liability, because it's 200/100 (and possibly the observer too) that could be spent in gateway-units + gateways.
Yes there was a bit of misunderstanding. When I said 3 Gate FE, I meant the exact build you were talking about. 1 gate - Nexus - 2 more gates, finish just in time to deal with early MM pressure. I am very familiar with this build, and do it often. It can hold 2 rax, and get very aggressive afterwards. I only suggest the Robo when all the scouting information you have gathered to this point suggests a high probability of a 1-1-1 all-in.
I have gone back and changed the wording of 3 Gate FE into 1 gate - Nexus - 2 gates (which is actually what I meant). Sorry for the confusion.
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Any thoughts on leaving units outside your base to try and take the tanks from behind, or even going for a warp prism after immortals?
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Leaving zealots outside of your base is a common response that I've been getting a lot recently. If it goes according to plan, it rocks. If theyre somehow spotted before you're ready to engage, they die to banshees and you're f******.
I don't know if WP works, I've lost to it once while doing this build, but that is also due to my awful management of the harassment.
Also, an alternative tech path I'm seeing people go: Tech to high templar and try to feedback the banshees. NaViBabyK attempted this vs me just a few hours ago, and it really comes down to who controls their units better (I poke with banshees while avoiding HTs and focus firing them when he engages, shit is not easy though.)
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Thanks so much for the guide. I've been really frustrated with the discussion around responding to 1-1-1 all-ins because of all the conflicting (and bad) advice coming from every direction.
Any chance you could put together a guide for responding correctly to the Thor/Raven push that moves out at 11:00? I've had exactly the same issue trying to find a reasonable response to that build on TL.
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On August 03 2011 01:29 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
Thanks so much for the guide. I've been really frustrated with the discussion around responding to 1-1-1 all-ins because of all the conflicting (and bad) advice coming from every direction.
Any chance you could put together a guide for responding correctly to the Thor/Raven push that moves out at 11:00? I've had exactly the same issue trying to find a reasonable response to that build on TL.
basically you need a lot of zealots. an immortal and stalkers is good, but just concentrate on mass zealot. zealots rip that apart.
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Another Question I have:
Wouldn't it work if you just try to base trade ?
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On August 03 2011 01:36 L3g3nd_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 01:29 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
Thanks so much for the guide. I've been really frustrated with the discussion around responding to 1-1-1 all-ins because of all the conflicting (and bad) advice coming from every direction.
Any chance you could put together a guide for responding correctly to the Thor/Raven push that moves out at 11:00? I've had exactly the same issue trying to find a reasonable response to that build on TL. basically you need a lot of zealots. an immortal and stalkers is good, but just concentrate on mass zealot. zealots rip that apart.
(I should make clear I don't want to derail this conversation by making it into a topic on the Thor/Raven push, but rather indicate that I would be very happy to see such a thread created by Mr. QTIP should he feel so inclined.)
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On August 03 2011 01:38 Tigi wrote:
Another Question I have:
Wouldn't it work if you just try to base trade ?
I don't really want to suggest base trade as an option when trying to put together a solid guide. Why base trade when you can save your expansion, kill his army, and delay his expansion?
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Just a quick tip to differentiate a 2 rax and 1-1-1: If your probe scouts a terrans base and sees the one gas, you can run it away, and then when there the first marine pops out, you can run it back in to the base.
If a reactor comes out or an extra marine comes out, it is most likely a 1-1-1, and if you see a second gas that early, its probably 2 port banshee. If there is a tech lab built, it is a 2 rax.
You can also poke up the ramp with your first stalker, and you should see a full wall off, either with 3 supply depots or 2 supply depots and a rax with reactor, and a full bunker behind it with 3ish marines not inside it. This screams 1-1-1, accounting for the fact that you saw him get a gas geyser.
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EPT
