EPTPersonally my micro/macro is not up to the level where I can kite their army with stalkers w/ no losses while still effectively macroing up to defend and prevent harass, so I prefer to split my army and flank them while they siege up outside my natural. Another tip is that on many maps you can place pylons in your main where you can warp-in zealots on the low ground that allows for more flanking possibilities.
[G] QTIP’s guide to defending the 1-1-1 (PvT) - Page 4
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
Personally my micro/macro is not up to the level where I can kite their army with stalkers w/ no losses while still effectively macroing up to defend and prevent harass, so I prefer to split my army and flank them while they siege up outside my natural. Another tip is that on many maps you can place pylons in your main where you can warp-in zealots on the low ground that allows for more flanking possibilities. | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On August 03 2011 01:57 Skyro wrote: Yeah like others have mentioned your guide should have at least some mention about flanking as it is absolutely critical. Even if they spot your flank they can't really punish it due to the immobility of tanks and lack of concussive shells. Personally my micro/macro is not up to the level where I can kite their army with stalkers w/ no losses while still effectively macroing up to defend and prevent harass, so I prefer to split my army and flank them while they siege up outside my natural. Another tip is that on many maps you can place pylons in your main where you can warp-in zealots on the low ground that allows for more flanking possibilities. I agree - my rep on shattered temple has a low ground zealot warp-in to flank the tanks, but I fail to mention it in my guide. Will add under the NOTES section in Engagement. | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On August 03 2011 01:40 AmericanUmlaut wrote: (I should make clear I don't want to derail this conversation by making it into a topic on the Thor/Raven push, but rather indicate that I would be very happy to see such a thread created by Mr. QTIP should he feel so inclined.) I actually haven't seen this Thor / Raven push before. I've seen some gimmicky Thor builds on ladder, but nothing as strong as the 1-1-1. If you have some reps or perhaps a pro game in which this is used, I'd like to take a look. | ||
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EmilA
Denmark4618 Posts
On August 03 2011 01:38 Tigi wrote: Another Question I have: Wouldn't it work if you just try to base trade ? I don't see how you'd get to base trade unless you're going blink stalkers. I've ended up in base trades when doing this against bstalkers and it's never really a close game after I lift off. Ends up with me slowpushing towards his remaining proxy pylon/new base and eventually he has to engage with squishystalkers. | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On August 03 2011 01:08 EmilA wrote: Leaving zealots outside of your base is a common response that I've been getting a lot recently. If it goes according to plan, it rocks. If theyre somehow spotted before you're ready to engage, they die to banshees and you're f******. I don't know if WP works, I've lost to it once while doing this build, but that is also due to my awful management of the harassment. Also, an alternative tech path I'm seeing people go: Tech to high templar and try to feedback the banshees. NaViBabyK attempted this vs me just a few hours ago, and it really comes down to who controls their units better (I poke with banshees while avoiding HTs and focus firing them when he engages, shit is not easy though.) If you have cloak and he went HT's, he either doesn't have an observer or it will be extremely late. It should be a huge build order advantage for you. Did he have cannons in his minerals lines? Also did he have an observer with his army to see your banshees for feedback? I can't help but think that his build could have been exploited. | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On August 02 2011 12:11 4kmonk wrote: Anyways, I think you probably need more than 30 probes to theoretically deal with this push. This is for 2 reasons. First is that terran can get more income than you off 1 base with 30 scvs + mules than you can off of 2 base with 30 probes. Additionally, the terran's army scales better than yours as it grows. Tank splash gets a lot better, banshees scale better than stalkers, and marines scale better than zealots. Additionally, as the terran army grows, it's less likely that your immortals will be able to target his tanks. Thus, if the terran either somehow scouts you're cutting probes or blindly delays his push, you have no chance to defend. I think that 30-34 probes is sufficient in holding this push at the timings that are most common. (8:30 ~ 10:00). I agree with you that the Terran army will scale better than yours if you are still on Zealot / Sentry / Immortals. However, the tank immortal relationship does not favor the tanks until the tanks reach high numbers (6 and up? not sure). If the push does not come at a typical time and the Terran has blindly delayed his push, I would take my 3rd gas and immediately tech into colossus. Marines will melt your zealots too quickly (even with charge) if the push is considerably delayed. I would maintain a healthy number of immortals (~4) to be able to one shot tanks, and a ton of Zealots to force the marines to scoot and shoot and expose the tanks. Even one colossus will make a huge difference. If he does something wild like a delayed two-port banshee, with marines and a few tanks sprinkled in, I honestly don't see an answer except for good scouting with your obs and phoenix. Stalkers can't keep up once the banshees reach a high number. Also, I would not be afraid to throw up a 5th gate and make an additional 5-8 probes. If your economy can support 5 gateways + 1 Robo / colossus, you should be able to hold this attack. The main problem with the 1-1-1 is that it hits before your expansion can really pay off. If he delays his attack long enough, it will be a healthy 2 base protoss with decent saturation against a 1 base Terran. You should be able to hold. | ||
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NukemDukem
United States133 Posts
NukemDukem.958 | ||
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
I dislike that your guide only handles 2 opening builds -- the 1 gate robo and the 1 gate FE into robo. There are a lot of common openers that aren't the two you aren't mentioning such as 15 nex and any of the various 20/22 food expands. You can't always be sure he isn't 2 raxxing -- even if he shows you it and the techlab on the 1st barracks he can always cancel it and do this push (see Boxer vs. Incontrol). Here you would assume it was a 2 rax and open with a 1 gate expo into 2 more gates or a 3 gate expo. Seeing a reactor on the first barracks could mean this push is coming, as well as a 2 rax, or cloaked banshee... or even reactored hellions. Also what if it's a big 4-player map and you can't even get into the Terran's base and you can't even get a look at the gas timings? Seeing a second marine tells you he is going for a quick CC or some kind of tech, but if the terran player is any good he's not going to show you that. If he is going 1 rax CC a robo is going to put you behind and if you go 1 gate expo into a quick robo a 2 rax concuss or 3 rax stim is going to kill you. | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On August 03 2011 08:35 sjschmidt93 wrote: I really like the guide, and thank you for it, but here's some criticism-- I dislike that your guide only handles 2 opening builds -- the 1 gate robo and the 1 gate FE into robo. There are a lot of common openers that aren't the two you aren't mentioning such as 15 nex and any of the various 20/22 food expands. You can't always be sure he isn't 2 raxxing -- even if he shows you it and the techlab on the 1st barracks he can always cancel it and do this push (see Boxer vs. Incontrol). Here you would assume it was a 2 rax and open with a 1 gate expo into 2 more gates or a 3 gate expo. Seeing a reactor on the first barracks could mean this push is coming, as well as a 2 rax, or cloaked banshee... or even reactored hellions. Also what if it's a big 4-player map and you can't even get into the Terran's base and you can't even get a look at the gas timings? Seeing a second marine tells you he is going for a quick CC or some kind of tech, but if the terran player is any good he's not going to show you that. If he is going 1 rax CC a robo is going to put you behind and if you go 1 gate expo into a quick robo a 2 rax concuss or 3 rax stim is going to kill you. Hi thank you for the critique. In my guide I explain that neither of these builds are optimal against a 2 rax. Instead, I suggest the 1 gate - Nexus - 2 gates as a stronger build in not only crushing 2 Rax, but putting on pressure afterwards. If they show you a tech lab, you should be suspicious. You should not just assume that you have correct information and return your probe. Per my guide, I mention that it is extremely important to scout multiple times to get as much information as possible. You should be thinking: Was he actually planning on building that? Am I lucky to see that? Or did he let me see that on purpose? (Playing Boxer of all people.... -_-) Example: You see the tech lab before the marine forces you out. There is no way to know for sure if its legit now that the marine is out. However, you can do your best to poke at the ramp multiple times to see if there is are any gas units at the ramp at a later time. If he built a tech lab but you see a healthy # of marines on your second poke -- you know that the tech lab was a fake out. (He actually built a tech lab to make more marines?) If you can't verify if its a 1-1-1 / 2 Rax, I still suggest opening 1 Gate - Robo - FE. Again, its your call to make, you have to play the probabilities based on the information you have. If you watch Incontrol vs Boxer from MLG Anaheim, its clear that Incontrol was tricked into thinking that he could opt for the 1 gate - Nexus - 2 gates play when he saw the tech lab. However, its clear that his build could not hold the 1-1-1. That's why, in the situation where you are not sure what is coming, I suggest the 1 Gate - Robo - FE. Incontrol would have been in a much better position if he had opted for this build over the 1 gate - Nexus - 2 gates build. Also, on larger maps where scouting is more difficult when you scout a player last, there is definitely some luck involved. However, your criticism is not specific to my guide. This "random" factor of scouting your opponent last and having your probe killed by a marine is a factor you have to take into account when playing the game. Do I suggest that you should still assume a 1-1-1 if your probe dies to the first marine because you scout him last? No. I simply suggest that you persistently scout with your probe, and poke at the ramp to get as much information as possible. There is nothing you can do about something that is out of your control. | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
- Uploaded a better replay - Created Critique section | ||
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NukemDukem
United States133 Posts
On August 03 2011 10:39 QTIP. wrote: 8/2/11: - Uploaded a better replay - Created Critique section Thanks for keeping it updated | ||
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juw
76 Posts
How do you stop bf hellion drops with a few stalkers? What if he went hellion thor instead of tanks? Also, if I am sure he is going 111, I do an FE phoenix open. If my pheonix scouts a low marine count (eg, armory), I have been able to rush 2 carriers with zealot support and won. Anyone tried that as well? | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On August 03 2011 13:23 juw wrote: There are other variations of the 111. Can you go over these scenarios too? How do you stop bf hellion drops with a few stalkers? What if he went hellion thor instead of tanks? Also, if I am sure he is going 111, I do an FE phoenix open. If my pheonix scouts a low marine count (eg, armory), I have been able to rush 2 carriers with zealot support and won. Anyone tried that as well? The crux of this build is seeing what is coming. It's the main reason why you get a faster observer to see what tech terran is giong for. 1x sentry stops bf runby's if you are very quick, and BFH is not going to transition any time soon to 1-1-1 allin. Hellion thor again is outside the scope of this, and playing safely is still good -> again fast observer is key. FE phoenix is fine against a 1-1-1. BUT what league are you in, because going for carriers, while you should be able to scout if he is going cloak or not, leaves a ~3 minute timing window for terran to kill you. Confirming that it is NOT in fact a 2 rax means that it is perfectly safe to go 1gate robo into expo in MOST cases, and this is my goto build when I suspect a teching terran. Leave a probe outside his ramp to attempt to not get tricked and you should be fine. | ||
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darkcloud8282
Canada776 Posts
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Fission
Canada1184 Posts
If they attack with cloak, it will be less banshees, probably 3, same with the raven variant. A word of caution though - a smart terran who opens with the cloak version of this build will start killing all your sentries if you dont have an obs out yet, this significantly hampers your chances of defending. TLDR: prob about 2 stalkers per line, maybe a sentry or two, move stalkers around as needed. Don't be suckered into making a ton of stalkers to deal with the harass, you'll lose. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On August 03 2011 10:30 QTIP. wrote: If you watch Incontrol vs Boxer from MLG Anaheim, its clear that Incontrol was tricked into thinking that he could opt for the 1 gate - Nexus - 2 gates play when he saw the tech lab. However, its clear that his build could not hold the 1-1-1. That's why, in the situation where you are not sure what is coming, I suggest the 1 Gate - Robo - FE. Incontrol would have been in a much better position if he had opted for this build over the 1 gate - Nexus - 2 gates build. Just on that - I've seen that multiple times already, if your opponent throws down a second rax in your plain sight literally SECONDS before your probe is pushed out or gets killed, then it's (in higher leagues) almost safe to assume that he's going to cancel it. Nobody in Master and probably nobody in Diamond either is stupid enough, to not a) wait for the probe to leave, or b) build the 2nd rax a little bit more in the back unless he wants you to see the rax. | ||
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NukemDukem
United States133 Posts
http://drop.sc/23308 | ||
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AmericanUmlaut
Germany2574 Posts
On August 03 2011 01:54 mixXanber wrote: Just a quick tip to differentiate a 2 rax and 1-1-1: If your probe scouts a terrans base and sees the one gas, you can run it away, and then when there the first marine pops out, you can run it back in to the base. I find this to be a really good tactic in general. I find that if I leave at ~3:00 and return at ~3:30 (against Ts who don't wall off), a lot of Terrans will assume my probe is gone for good and start their second structure and/or second gas, and since they'll only ever have one marine at that time, you can usually get good scouting information. Of course, it's 99% sure to cost you your probe, but the intel is well worth it. If you're Terran and want to be super clever, you should park that first Marine at the bottom of your ramp instead of the top to have a better chance of sniping the returning probe before it spots anything. | ||
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aznkukuboi
120 Posts
I lost to it today, I pulled all my probes back to my base and the ramp was a horrible choke to defend. | ||
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SC2ShoWTimE
Germany722 Posts
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