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On August 03 2011 20:38 aznkukuboi wrote:
Question, if you gas steal, won't that mean this push comes even later, so you'll have enough units to defend?
I lost to it today, I pulled all my probes back to my base and the ramp was a horrible choke to defend.
Gas steal can be quite good -- I've seen Tester do this quite frequently vs Terrans. By doing so, you get some additional scouting information and you can delay this push. However, if he was simply opting for a 2 Rax opening, or a non-gas-intensive build, your assimilator is a waste. It's your call to make -- do not expect the Terran to avoid the 1-1-1 just because you threw a wrench into his plans. It is still incredibly powerful if it hits anywhere in the 8:30 ~ 10:00 mark.
As for your second point, if the Terran has set up his tanks at the ramp of your main, you have probably already lost the game. Either force mid-map engagements that force multiple siege/unsieges to delay the push, but engage no later than immediately outside your natural. Any better positioning and you will be at a huge disadvantage.
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I Crushed this based off of this guide however he expanded and did a second wave and crushed me
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On August 04 2011 03:14 NukemDukem wrote:
I Crushed this based off of this guide however he expanded and did a second wave and crushed me
This has happened to me too. Usually it will be the overwhelming number of banshees that come with the second push. Though you can reset the tank count, the banshees will often escape. If banshees get up to 6-7, you need a few phoenix - stalkers don't cut it anymore.
Keep scouting with your obs to see what unit composition is building in his base after the initial attack.
When the second push comes around, if you can soft-contain him for a bit (make him worry about a counter attack / take position outside of his natural) try to get a composition of Chargelots / a few Immortals / a few Phoenix. Even if the banshee count wasn't as high as you expected, your phoenix will be able to lift a couple tanks, which is still very useful. This will easily crush his composition. He will already have less workers than you assuming you did not lose too many probes.
I've seen some games where after crushing the initial attack, the Protoss player stops making immortals. This is a mistake -- after not succeeding a one base attack, a Terran player cannot afford to magically tech switch. Expect more of the same, banshees and tanks.
Hopefully this helps.
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On August 04 2011 04:00 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 03:14 NukemDukem wrote:
I Crushed this based off of this guide however he expanded and did a second wave and crushed me This has happened to me too. Usually it will be the overwhelming number of banshees that come with the second push. Though you can reset the tank count, the banshees will often escape. If banshees get up to 6-7, you need a few phoenix - stalkers don't cut it anymore. Keep scouting with your obs to see what unit composition is building in his base after the initial attack. When the second push comes around, if you can soft-contain him for a bit (make him worry about a counter attack / take position outside of his natural) try to get a composition of Chargelots / a few Immortals / a few Phoenix. Even if the banshee count wasn't as high as you expected, your phoenix will be able to lift a couple tanks, which is still very useful. This will easily crush his composition. He will already have less workers than you assuming you did not lose too many probes. I've seen some games where after crushing the initial attack, the Protoss player stops making immortals. This is a mistake -- after not succeeding a one base attack, a Terran player cannot afford to magically tech switch. Expect more of the same, banshees and tanks. Hopefully this helps.
Yeah its helpful thanks
heres a replay of me crushing the initial attack. I know I made some mistakes at the 6minute mark I let my zealot get shot by the bunker and lost my scouting stalker. I only had 1 stalker protecting my main instead of stalker/sentry so I lost many probes. I got my natural up late.
I didn't have a stalker at the watch tower
I did hide some units for a flank.
I didnt use my sentries and used immortals to shoot the tanks
(fail masters lol)
I tried a counter but he already had defenses up and lost my army. It feels like terran can easily transition out of this.
Besides the mistakes I mentioned any other advice you can give me?
here is a replay
http://drop.sc/23383
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Canada13405 Posts
On August 04 2011 07:11 NukemDukem wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 04:00 QTIP. wrote:On August 04 2011 03:14 NukemDukem wrote:
I Crushed this based off of this guide however he expanded and did a second wave and crushed me This has happened to me too. Usually it will be the overwhelming number of banshees that come with the second push. Though you can reset the tank count, the banshees will often escape. If banshees get up to 6-7, you need a few phoenix - stalkers don't cut it anymore. Keep scouting with your obs to see what unit composition is building in his base after the initial attack. When the second push comes around, if you can soft-contain him for a bit (make him worry about a counter attack / take position outside of his natural) try to get a composition of Chargelots / a few Immortals / a few Phoenix. Even if the banshee count wasn't as high as you expected, your phoenix will be able to lift a couple tanks, which is still very useful. This will easily crush his composition. He will already have less workers than you assuming you did not lose too many probes. I've seen some games where after crushing the initial attack, the Protoss player stops making immortals. This is a mistake -- after not succeeding a one base attack, a Terran player cannot afford to magically tech switch. Expect more of the same, banshees and tanks. Hopefully this helps. Yeah its helpful thanks heres a replay of me crushing the initial attack. I know I made some mistakes at the 6minute mark I let my zealot get shot by the bunker and lost my scouting stalker. I only had 1 stalker protecting my main instead of stalker/sentry so I lost many probes. I got my natural up late. I didn't have a stalker at the watch tower I did hide some units for a flank. I didnt use my sentries and used immortals to shoot the tanks (fail masters lol) I tried a counter but he already had defenses up and lost my army. It feels like terran can easily transition out of this. Besides the mistakes I mentioned any other advice you can give me? here is a replay http://drop.sc/23383
You need to remember that even if you hold the attack and lose no probes and keep some army. Your economy will be better now but that won't translate into an advantage until later. So countering right away is a terrible idea if you JUST held a really strong one base push. You need to maintain your advantage and take a fast third base with a solid army behind that and go for a timing when they try to get off their second base.
The 1-1-1 all in is basically going to mean the Terran is on one base even when they take their nat because the main will be close to mined out. Taking a fast third makes the game three base toss vs essentially one base Terran and theres almost no way to lose unless you let them take a third base and macro up in that way.
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I'm EU gm toss player who has lost all hope defending this build with fast expansion, your guide seemed promising so i tried to master this defense for few days with little to no success...
Here are few classic scenarios:
http://drop.sc/24479
http://drop.sc/23157
edit: seems like my "moving avarage" wasnt high enough, even though ladder put me against progamers often, the promotion didnt came tt
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Did you even follow that guide? If you would have played according to the guide, you'd been in a very favorable position if not won it outright.
http://sc2ranks.com/eu/343847/MIKAMI
Is that your profile, by the way? If it's true, then since when is mid masters a GM level player? If it's not you, then I apologize.
Koal
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On August 05 2011 03:33 koalemos wrote:Did you even follow that guide? If you would have played according to the guide, you'd been in a very favorable position if not won it outright. http://sc2ranks.com/eu/343847/MIKAMIIs that your profile, by the way? If it's true, then since when is mid masters a GM level player? If it's not you, then I apologize. Koal
It is my account, perhaps you could take another look at it when grandmaster league opens ?
Also what exactly do i have to do differently to win out right ?
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You made too few zealots and warped in stalkers at the wrong time. Why warp in stalkers when there are still tanks at your natural? You should spend more chrono boost on immortals aswell.
You weren't in GM during season 2 either, you have played 1 game this season and you lost that. Why would you suddenly become a GM level player? This push is very easy to defend with proper decision making.
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On August 05 2011 04:09 koalemos wrote:
You made too few zealots and warped in stalkers at the wrong time. Why warp in stalkers when there are still tanks at your natural? You should spend more chrono boost on immortals aswell.
You weren't in GM during season 2 either, you have played 1 game this season and you lost that. Why would you suddenly become a GM level player? This push is very easy to defend with proper decision making.
You obviously didn't watch the second replay on Shakuras where i had 21 zealots/4 immortals/4 stalkers against his push and it got wrecked aswell.
In the first engagment u want as many zealots as possible, but after that it's better to warp in stalkers than lone zealots, since stalkers do well against marines and you can snipe a tank with them, they also deal with an additional banshee threat. few zealots just get out microed and killed. If i had used that extra chrono boost on immortal or had a little bit more army, i still don't see myself crushing this as u mentioned.
During last season ladder lock i was on "even" status starting from #40 GM players. The first placement match this season was against aAa.Nerchio (which i lost) who ended up as #1. Once GM league opens i expect myself to be there since i can play solid macro game with top GM players. But yes it's a mistake to label myself as GM before the league is actually out. But that shouldn't be the main discussion. I'm really at a loss here against 1/1/1 builds even though i have tried to figure this out for weeks now...
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One question I have is what if the terran denies scouting of the ramp or builds their barracks behind the ramp and uses a supply depot wall in. I play both terran and protoss and I always do supply depot wall in, with barracks in the back. Also if a marine is at the bottom of the ramp there is no way of telling whether it is a 2rax or a 1-1-1 all in. Will you still go blind 1gate 1 robo (which will get destroyed by a 2rax, you had 3 sentries 1 stalker 1 finished gate at 6:45 which is by far not enough, from the first replay on typhon peaks), or what else would you do?
Also, as a masters terran and masters protoss player, this push I feel was not the most optimal. As terran I like to push with 30 marines 16 scvs(of my 27) 2 tanks and 2 cloak banshee (that do harass to mineral line) and be at the opponent natural around 10 minutes with a tank or banshee rallied over. I do a 1/1/1 into 2 more rax and I have not lost a game doing this unless I got 4gated. How does this build fare vs this type of push? There are tons of variations, the one I studied and just described was Bomber vs Hasuobs on Terminus, where I copied exactly what bomber did. I feel that is the most optimal push from a 1/1/1 all in. As a protoss player though, I am unable to hold less optimal pushes from terran players, even though my main race is still protoss.
If you want I can post some replays of me doing the push as well as Bomber's push. I feel that specific push would destroy this build, but quick collosus may fare well against this. However you might only get 1 collosus out in time, and the cloak banshee forces a delay in collosus production as you will need to get an extra observer.
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On August 05 2011 04:46 chaopow wrote:
One question I have is what if the terran denies scouting of the ramp or builds their barracks behind the ramp and uses a supply depot wall in. I play both terran and protoss and I always do supply depot wall in, with barracks in the back. Also if a marine is at the bottom of the ramp there is no way of telling whether it is a 2rax or a 1-1-1 all in. Will you still go blind 1gate 1 robo (which will get destroyed by a 2rax, you had 3 sentries 1 stalker 1 finished gate at 6:45 which is by far not enough, from the first replay on typhon peaks), or what else would you do?
Also, as a masters terran and masters protoss player, this push I feel was not the most optimal. As terran I like to push with 30 marines 16 scvs(of my 27) 2 tanks and 2 cloak banshee (that do harass to mineral line) and be at the opponent natural around 10 minutes with a tank or banshee rallied over. I do a 1/1/1 into 2 more rax and I have not lost a game doing this unless I got 4gated. How does this build fare vs this type of push? There are tons of variations, the one I studied and just described was Bomber vs Hasuobs on Terminus, where I copied exactly what bomber did. I feel that is the most optimal push from a 1/1/1 all in. As a protoss player though, I am unable to hold less optimal pushes from terran players, even though my main race is still protoss.
If you want I can post some replays of me doing the push as well as Bomber's push. I feel that specific push would destroy this build, but quick collosus may fare well against this. However you might only get 1 collosus out in time, and the cloak banshee forces a delay in collosus production as you will need to get an extra observer.
You can hold off 2 rax pressure with Stalker-sentry-sentry as your three units. 1 Gate Robo is considered that safest build in PvT at the moment. Your initial forcefield will be more than enough time to get out another sentry or Stalker (it should already be in production because you see the 2 rax coming) and your warpgate/s will finish. If the Terran comes up your ramp, they are making a cost-inefficient trade and a Protoss player can easily hold it with decent forcefields. More importantly, if I was doing 1 - Gate - Robo expecting 1-1-1 but I saw a 2 rax coming (with stalker at xelnaga tower), I would immediately throw down a 2nd gate. This would not only allow me to hold the 2 Rax, but potentially take an aggressive stance with an immortal. On maps like Typhon, it is easy to spot a 2 rax coming from a long while away. There are plenty of games where I expect 1-1-1 but get 2 Rax'd instead. It's true that I had just 3 sentries + Stalker at 6:45, but did you check how many forcefields I had? There is no way you are busting my ramp. (On Tal'Darim, 2 gate Robo is a much safer build if you can't get any conclusive scouting information)
I've seen Bomber's push before, but have't experienced that exact build on ladder. Please go ahead and post some replays of you doing it successfully against a 1 gate Robo FE / FE Robo, and let's see if we can find a solution for the Protoss player. If you want to do it against me feel free to message me on B.NET QTIP.630 for a game.
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On August 05 2011 06:04 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 04:46 chaopow wrote:
One question I have is what if the terran denies scouting of the ramp or builds their barracks behind the ramp and uses a supply depot wall in. I play both terran and protoss and I always do supply depot wall in, with barracks in the back. Also if a marine is at the bottom of the ramp there is no way of telling whether it is a 2rax or a 1-1-1 all in. Will you still go blind 1gate 1 robo (which will get destroyed by a 2rax, you had 3 sentries 1 stalker 1 finished gate at 6:45 which is by far not enough, from the first replay on typhon peaks), or what else would you do?
Also, as a masters terran and masters protoss player, this push I feel was not the most optimal. As terran I like to push with 30 marines 16 scvs(of my 27) 2 tanks and 2 cloak banshee (that do harass to mineral line) and be at the opponent natural around 10 minutes with a tank or banshee rallied over. I do a 1/1/1 into 2 more rax and I have not lost a game doing this unless I got 4gated. How does this build fare vs this type of push? There are tons of variations, the one I studied and just described was Bomber vs Hasuobs on Terminus, where I copied exactly what bomber did. I feel that is the most optimal push from a 1/1/1 all in. As a protoss player though, I am unable to hold less optimal pushes from terran players, even though my main race is still protoss.
If you want I can post some replays of me doing the push as well as Bomber's push. I feel that specific push would destroy this build, but quick collosus may fare well against this. However you might only get 1 collosus out in time, and the cloak banshee forces a delay in collosus production as you will need to get an extra observer. You can hold off 2 rax pressure with Stalker-sentry-sentry as your three units. 1 Gate Robo is considered that safest build in PvT at the moment. Your initial forcefield will be more than enough time to get out another sentry or Stalker (it should already be in production because you see the 2 rax coming) and your warpgate/s will finish. If the Terran comes up your ramp, they are making a cost-inefficient trade and a Protoss player can easily hold it with decent forcefields. More importantly, if I was doing 1 - Gate - Robo expecting 1-1-1 but I saw a 2 rax coming (with stalker at xelnaga tower), I would immediately throw down a 2nd gate. This would not only allow me to hold the 2 Rax, but potentially take an aggressive stance with an immortal. On maps like Typhon, it is easy to spot a 2 rax coming from a long while away. There are plenty of games where I expect 1-1-1 but get 2 Rax'd instead. It's true that I had just 3 sentries + Stalker at 6:45, but did you check how many forcefields I had? There is no way you are busting my ramp. (On Tal'Darim, 2 gate Robo is a much safer build if you can't get any conclusive scouting information) I've seen Bomber's push before, but have't experienced that exact build on ladder. Please go ahead and post some replays of you doing it successfully against a 1 gate Robo FE / FE Robo, and let's see if we can find a solution for the Protoss player. If you want to do it against me feel free to message me on B.NET QTIP.630 for a game.
The primary concern is not busting up the ramp, but delaying or canceling your nexus and killing a low ground pylon if you have one. A 2rax hits around 6 minutes, and even if it was delayed to say 6:45, your 4 units (with 2 gateways still in production) might very well force a nexus cancel. There is not enough dps to deal with the harass even if you have several forcefields. As terran I have canceled several 1gate expos, and even some 3gate expos with well timed 2rax pressure.
I will look through my replays to find one that fits a 1gate robo FE or FE robo. I have not labeled my replays but I have every one of my ladder replays saved. Will update this post with a replay if I can find.
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The imortals are definately important, i tried mass gateway lots of times having a way higher army count, but it doesnt do nearly as well as the imortals, but i think you can get away with 1gate fe then robo and still have enough imortals out in time. as long as you have like 2 out in time. Flanking is also amazingly important, just proxy a pylon somewhere outside your base, since you should be doing this anyways it works out. Here is a replay of 1g fe holding it
http://drop.sc/24686.
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You can't ever rely on your early probe scouting information. Good terrans fake their standard 2-raxes and similar build into looking like 1-1-1 (not showing their tech labs/marauders/reapers etc). Against standard terran FE builds and 2-rax FE build your early robo builds gets crushed. This guide is maybe good for plat-dia-low masters but not above. It's just such a gamble to go early robo FE although some warprism harass might save few games after your expo gets denied.
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On August 06 2011 15:43 izgodlee wrote: The imortals are definately important, i tried mass gateway lots of times having a way higher army count, but it doesnt do nearly as well as the imortals, but i think you can get away with 1gate fe then robo and still have enough imortals out in time. as long as you have like 2 out in time. Flanking is also amazingly important, just proxy a pylon somewhere outside your base, since you should be doing this anyways it works out. Here is a replay of 1g fe holding it http://drop.sc/24686.
I watched your replay. You did well but I can't help thinking if he had made a raven and put down a PDD at that ramp you would have been in trouble. It's better if you can engage further out from your base, no?
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On August 06 2011 18:56 vizir wrote:
You can't ever rely on your early probe scouting information. Good terrans fake their standard 2-raxes and similar build into looking like 1-1-1 (not showing their tech labs/marauders/reapers etc). Against standard terran FE builds and 2-rax FE build your early robo builds gets crushed. This guide is maybe good for plat-dia-low masters but not above. It's just such a gamble to go early robo FE although some warprism harass might save few games after your expo gets denied.
Problem is, yesterday I've learned what can happen if you try to be safe against 2 rax and do 1 Gate FE -> 2 more Gates -> Robo -> Observer. I scouted a completely standard Gas timing, and later poked up to see he went 1 Marine and then Reactor, and also walled off with a Bunker and 2 Depots. I figured this could still be 2 rax, and since I knew what unit composition I wanted against the Marine/Tank/Banshee push, I decided to be safe and throw down 2 more Gateways before a Robo.
As it turns out, he had just made hellions out of his naked factory, and built 2 ports instead. My observer arrived at his base only to see him move out with maybe 15 Marines, 3 Hellions, 4 banshees and a Raven. As I was mostly building up Zealots, Sentries and Immortals, I managed to clean up his ground army (Hellions doing surprisingly well against what I had though), and then subsequently lost to the Banshees and Raven. I even forced a PDD before he got to my natural, didn't matter at all.
So yeah, at the moment this very much appears to be a coinflip to me. No matter what you do, they can always do something that hard counters your build, and you have no way to scout fast enough without losing your natural to 2 rax. Furthermore, even if you do guess correctly, you still pretty much have to outplay the Terran to hold. And you can't even 4gate him after the Warpgate nerf. :/
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On August 02 2011 11:02 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 11:00 Anihc wrote:Pretty solid guide. You hit all the key parts, and I agree with pretty much everything said here. Personally 1 thing I like doing is to hide half my zealots somewhere outside my base, and then flank/sandwich the terran army as it comes into my natural. This is great because it doesn't even require any forcefields (so oftentimes I only get 2 sentries total, 1 guardian shield for each half of my army) so there's less micro involved, plus it's great for avoiding the SCV barrier and easily disposing of tanks. Here's an example: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187808¤tpage=207#4139 I've seen someone hide their zealots as well! It's a fantastic strategy. (Above my level right now heh). Excellent video.
I like to in additional make a proxy pylon outside my natural (on shakuras, e.g., on the high ground of my vertical third) so I can warp in reinforcements from behind. A lot of time I just take my whole army and position it outside my natural to catch him from a good angle as he is sieging. Your ramp can be more of a liability than anything else against this, in my experience.
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On August 06 2011 20:04 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2011 15:43 izgodlee wrote: The imortals are definately important, i tried mass gateway lots of times having a way higher army count, but it doesnt do nearly as well as the imortals, but i think you can get away with 1gate fe then robo and still have enough imortals out in time. as long as you have like 2 out in time. Flanking is also amazingly important, just proxy a pylon somewhere outside your base, since you should be doing this anyways it works out. Here is a replay of 1g fe holding it http://drop.sc/24686. I watched your replay. You did well but I can't help thinking if he had made a raven and put down a PDD at that ramp you would have been in trouble. It's better if you can engage further out from your base, no?
i dunno i like to engage when hes almost at my nat because the pylon is right there and i get instant reinforcements. might be better mid map, have to test more.
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This build doesn't "counter" the 1-1-1, it merely counters the ThorZain all-in style. very good guide though
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EPT
