EPT
[G] QTIP’s guide to defending the 1-1-1 (PvT) - Page 7
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
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ssregitoss
Turkey241 Posts
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StaplerPhone
United States813 Posts
On August 09 2011 01:46 Micket wrote: What do people think about the variation Marineking showed? It is a marine hellion drop after opening 1/1/1. He used it vs SaSe and after killing a ton of probes, followed up with the deadly 1/1/1 which SaSe couldn't have held. All depends on the hellion drop I think, because if your hellion drop gets shut down you basically have a delayed 1/1/1 with less tanks or marines since you chose to invest in hellions. So yes it is viable as long as you get some probe kills, but I don't think its necessary since the 1/1/1 is already so deadly. | ||
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Arch00
United States233 Posts
On August 08 2011 23:03 AmericanUmlaut wrote: Could you please post some replays? This discussion really needs a good selection of high-level replays of toss holding the push. Here's one vs a rank 35 Masters terran http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/07-08-11/161818-EnVKaySee-VS-Arch.html and heres another from diamond league (I tanked my alternate account since I wanted to start learning zerg) http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/03-08-11/161824-pHazeKY-VS-TechnoViking.html | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On August 09 2011 03:48 StaplerPhone wrote: All depends on the hellion drop I think, because if your hellion drop gets shut down you basically have a delayed 1/1/1 with less tanks or marines since you chose to invest in hellions. So yes it is viable as long as you get some probe kills, but I don't think its necessary since the 1/1/1 is already so deadly. That build by MKP is basically the next step in the evolution of the 1/1/1. Everyone agrees that Protoss needs a very fast expansion and a fast Robo in order to deal with the all-in. However, this means that you won't have a lot of units at a certain timing, having invested in a Nexus and Robo. That's when MKP attacks the front with a group of Marines while dropping Hellions in the back. It's nasty because it's pretty hard to take no damage from a Hellion drop with just a few Stalkers and Sentries, especially with Marines at your front (forcing you to relocate your probes to the main, making the drop potentially even stronger). And if he keeps the Hellions alive, they do just fine as a core army unit during the main push. If you do shut down the Hellion drop with minimal losses though, you're in a pretty good spot. | ||
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EmilA
Denmark4618 Posts
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On August 08 2011 13:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Very nice guide! Thanks for making I was a bit confused about seeing all this about the Terran 111 all-in build recently, wondering what it was about, but apparently it just means the marine/raven/banshee/tank all-in and its variations. I agree with this guide, 1 gate robo and 1 gate expo robo are really good builds, especially since it deals well with these 111 all-ins (and is both economical, flexible, and helps you learn to scout, all good for learning players). SlayerS Cella was giving a protoss some lessons on how to defend against 111 all-ins and he said the 1 gate robo was the best. I'm adding this part about Cella using it to the OP. Given how many Slayers Terrans use this build, it is relevant that Cella promotes the 1 Gate - Robo build as a good counter. Cella must surely be an authority on this topic. Thanks. | ||
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CuHz
United States354 Posts
So ive faced many 1-1-1's in the past; the problem to me is deciphering which 1base terran all-in is coming.. There are many variations and 2 extreme ones which will hurt you. The obvious standard 1-1-1 marine/tank/banshee but then theres this other one that will kill you if u prepare for the standard 1-1-1; which is the dual starport banshee marine scv all-in. I've had many games where i probe/stalker poke (incase mauraders concussive so i only lose a probe) and scout rines; then later a bunker. then i Think "ok he's going for a 1-1-1 build". so i prepare with FE/ immortals / 4-5gate / zlot sentrys/ and a few stalkers. I keep poking the ramp nd all i see is bunker(s) nd rines. I send in my obs to his base nd it dies instantly to the raven. I think im all set ready to win this fight with my good positioning and wait for his marines/tank/raven/banshee/scvs . Nxt thing you know he comes with all banshee's/ravens/rines/and scvs nd then im basically dead, not enough anti-air. And then another game; same situation happens above. But this time i see he sends 2 hellions out to scout (1 after another) so i think; Ok there must not be an xlab on the factory so he is going dual starport. So i then make a stargate nd prepare for dual starport rine scv all in. Nxt thing you know i am greeted by the standard marine/tank/raven/banshee/scv all-in and i have made too many stalkers and have to sac my expo but i end up holding the push but i lose the game (lost too many probes and coming back was an uphill battle). How do you decipher between which all-in is coming? my idea is getting hallucination; but 100/100 cost is very harmful to such a timing attack. Also ninja'in the observer but most the time good Terrans have their raven sittin by their starport with rines and denys any scouting possible. Any ideas? | ||
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SpiZe
Canada3640 Posts
It was on Antiga Shipyard and I opened with HuK's 20 food FE. I scouted him last wich allowed me to loose the probe and see his gas. My second probe saw he was going pure marines and also the reactor on the rax. I assumed 1-1-1 and started a robo, however, i didn't even have gas to start my first obs when the first banshee knocked on my nat mineral line, he lost it due to bad control. His push came much faster than i expected and my first immortal wasnt even done so I had to meet him while he was unsieged but he didn't went for the bait but I forced him to siege at the ramp below my nat nonetheless. When I had 2 immortals I pushed and focus all of his tanks and killed 2 banshee, however he still had 2 bunkers filled with marines and another tank coming. I traded immos for tanks and banshee and after 2-3 trades I was able to break him and he was forced to gg. Thanks bro | ||
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SeriouR
Spain622 Posts
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On August 09 2011 06:32 SpiZe wrote: Hey, great guide thanks, I just won a game using it ^^ It was on Antiga Shipyard and I opened with HuK's 20 food FE. I scouted him last wich allowed me to loose the probe and see his gas. My second probe saw he was going pure marines and also the reactor on the rax. I assumed 1-1-1 and started a robo, however, i didn't even have gas to start my first obs when the first banshee knocked on my nat mineral line, he lost it due to bad control. His push came much faster than i expected and my first immortal wasnt even done so I had to meet him while he was unsieged but he didn't went for the bait but I forced him to siege at the ramp below my nat nonetheless. When I had 2 immortals I pushed and focus all of his tanks and killed 2 banshee, however he still had 2 bunkers filled with marines and another tank coming. I traded immos for tanks and banshee and after 2-3 trades I was able to break him and he was forced to gg. Thanks bro These kind of posts make me happy. ^_^ | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On August 09 2011 06:45 SeriouR wrote: Regarding scouting for 2 rax or 111. I think it's quite a good trick to either block the add on with a pylon or build it by the rax so oyu can SEE what add on is he getting, f he is getting no add on, it's likely it's not 2 rax or else a bad 2 rax, which is better. Interesting trick - I haven't experimented with this myself, but it does seem to have some appealing benefits. However, my current build order for 1 gate - Robo - is very tight to ensure safety against a 2 rax so I'm not sure if I can work it in. However, I do see how it can not only give you great scouting info but also be incredibly annoying. | ||
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bertu
Brazil871 Posts
On August 09 2011 06:53 QTIP. wrote: Interesting trick - I haven't experimented with this myself, but it does seem to have some appealing benefits. However, my current build order for 1 gate - Robo - is very tight to ensure safety against a 2 rax so I'm not sure if I can work it in. However, I do see how it can not only give you great scouting info but also be incredibly annoying. Thank you for the guide, it helped me stopping the 1-1-1 a few times but I still can`t execute everything properly. I know where I need to improve though. Could you please share your initial build order? Thank you once again. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On August 09 2011 02:59 ssregitoss wrote: if i am sure he is going for 1-1-1 he wont have cloak.if he has cloak his push will delay.i personally found fast one phonex and twlight charge zealots destroy this cost effective.after i put down my twilight i put 3 more gates plus phonex crush this easily.then you can go dark templar or what ever you want.the key is to know he is 1-1-1 and no cloak. Just no. Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about. If you don't go robo after seeing only marines in a bunker at the ramp of the terran, you are gambling. From what you are saying you are at most a diamond player because you have no idea what is in the realm of possibility. The goal of this is to get a safe, adaptable response to the terran when this build is executed that will kill it every time. spoilered for reader safety. GSL spoilers so open at own risk + Show Spoiler + Used x2 in Code A. I have no problem with them mixing it up. However when they gamble their whole career on a not-so-risky allin, then it's quite ridiculous. The fact that they have more faith in the all-in than their standard play means that one is quite possibly easier to pull off(hint: it's not the standard play) | ||
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Erik.TheRed
United States1655 Posts
On August 09 2011 06:53 QTIP. wrote: Interesting trick - I haven't experimented with this myself, but it does seem to have some appealing benefits. However, my current build order for 1 gate - Robo - is very tight to ensure safety against a 2 rax so I'm not sure if I can work it in. However, I do see how it can not only give you great scouting info but also be incredibly annoying. I think Sase was doing this quite a bit at dreamhack. He was also undefeated in his group and had a very convincing PvT style, so I'm curious to see if this is still something he is working with. In any case, if they are rushing for an add on, you will see them lift the rax with your constructing pylon, otherwise you will see a second marine building, in which case you can just cancel the pylon. Depending on where they built the first rax, you can also let the pylon finish and sometimes see a second gas/ factory/ second barracks/ CC (especially on maps with small bases, like xelnaga caverns). | ||
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oI2ange
United States10 Posts
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Xahhk
Canada540 Posts
On August 09 2011 06:14 CuHz wrote: Top Master Protoss who face GM / beat gm occasionally here and I have a question / suggestion / discussion about this problem. So ive faced many 1-1-1's in the past; the problem to me is deciphering which 1base terran all-in is coming.. There are many variations and 2 extreme ones which will hurt you. The obvious standard 1-1-1 marine/tank/banshee but then theres this other one that will kill you if u prepare for the standard 1-1-1; which is the dual starport banshee marine scv all-in. I've had many games where i probe/stalker poke (incase mauraders concussive so i only lose a probe) and scout rines; then later a bunker. then i Think "ok he's going for a 1-1-1 build". so i prepare with FE/ immortals / 4-5gate / zlot sentrys/ and a few stalkers. I keep poking the ramp nd all i see is bunker(s) nd rines. I send in my obs to his base nd it dies instantly to the raven. I think im all set ready to win this fight with my good positioning and wait for his marines/tank/raven/banshee/scvs . Nxt thing you know he comes with all banshee's/ravens/rines/and scvs nd then im basically dead, not enough anti-air. And then another game; same situation happens above. But this time i see he sends 2 hellions out to scout (1 after another) so i think; Ok there must not be an xlab on the factory so he is going dual starport. So i then make a stargate nd prepare for dual starport rine scv all in. Nxt thing you know i am greeted by the standard marine/tank/raven/banshee/scv all-in and i have made too many stalkers and have to sac my expo but i end up holding the push but i lose the game (lost too many probes and coming back was an uphill battle). How do you decipher between which all-in is coming? my idea is getting hallucination; but 100/100 cost is very harmful to such a timing attack. Also ninja'in the observer but most the time good Terrans have their raven sittin by their starport with rines and denys any scouting possible. Any ideas? In that dual starport game, did he hide the second starport somewhere? I don't know you would be able to see that unless you get lucky with your obs movement manage to insert it deep into the terran base. | ||
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SKaREO
Canada58 Posts
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
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