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Hey,
Been thinking alot about what the best way is to get detection against dt,s and 3gate dt expand (whatever that is)
Terran has the worst detection from all races by far (qq) and they are left with turrets, ravens, scans
After alot of thinking..and also a few experiences in practice i have come to the conclusion that the best detection method is the orbital scan
Turret: its relativly cheap but the problem is that its static ,has a limited range,and has usually no other function against toss beside detection
you will need to spend quiet alot of minerals on turrets if you want to be truly dt safe on all bases and then you still have to safe up scans when you move out or incase dt hide outside range turret inbase..
so:while 1 turret near the ramp and bunker will prove immensly usefull for the first 3 dt,s
turrets are not the definite answer to dts and you will at least need scans if you actually want to do something
Raven:while the raven is immensly usefull in general against protoss its detection capabilities are rather limited
The raven is verry fragile compared to observers wich never die and it can only be at one spot at a time
Getting a raven only for detection feels expensive (you will need at least 2 to be able to move out and safe at home) but against protoss you it has more uses so guess its somewhat worth it
the disadvantage of the raven and why i dont consider it a good option early game is that it takes a while to get a raven out , you need build a few tech structures to wich you maybe dont want to commit yet early in game
Scan:first i hated the scans as detection because the dt,s always managed to move outside range before beeing killed
another disadvantage is that you actually have to perform the detection yourself, its not there permanent like when there is a turret or raven and this is a huge disadvantage
unless you pro since then you can be all over the map at the same time, but this is advice for pros annyway
if your not a pro, i strongly recommand turrets..
the huge advantage is that scans are realy free... the cost you nothing and in the end this method of detection actually makes you monney
what i would sugest is to build an extra inbase cc to orbital purely with the aim to use it for scans to detect and scout
you have the added benefit of suv production and the ability to eventually float the cc to a 3rd or 4th expansion
while the oc initially costs you 550 minerals, you will soon make this monney back since you wont need to spend all its energy on scans and you can get a few suply drops in to get your monney back later
why imo this should be viable against 3gate dt expand is that 3gate dt,s isnt as strong as an attack as the usual 3 gate or 4 gate attacks wich allows you to safely cut a few units and build the extra oc
well this all coming from a somewhat lower lvl player lol but hope some people find it usefull annyway
building tons of turrets btw is what i saw goody do earlier today in a game on stream against 3gate dt expand (forgot against who) where it did work verry well to completely shut down the dts, but still
he had like 10 turrets and i somehow had a feeling that that just couldnt be the "best" way of dealing with dt,s
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On July 26 2011 03:51 vnlegend wrote:
You guys are talking too much about "I know exactly what's hes gonna do and going to perfectly counter it with this BO" or about what you're going to do. It's much more important to see what the Protoss is doing (the timings), what scouting info you can gather, and how you can figure out his build.
3gate DT seems like a solid build. The 3gates should give enough units to defend vs anything. Any decent Protoss can cut your army in half if you try to go up the ramp. A reaper opening might be useful in scouting this though.
Best advice in terms of scouting the build so far. I think reaper expand plus follow up light pressure is the best way to identify this build from all the other possibilities.
"go fucking kill him" is the worst advice on this thread.
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I generally open 1 rax fe or marauder fe, so take this with a grain of salt, but when you scout that 2nd gas, there's a few things it's likely to be: DT expand, stargate pressure/all-in, blink all in, 3 gate expo to 6gate. Personally, I haven't seen much of that blink all in, but I'll mention it since others seem to see it. If you use a build that doesn't get concussive right away, you'll have a bunker up anyways, but you should have one ready to go. An engineering bay deals with both DT and Stargate pressure, and helps a great deal with a void ray all-in. My standard timing is to get the engi bay after my 3rd barracks. I don't remember the timing of that when you do the 2 rax pressure, so you may need to get the engi bay right when you expand. Regardless, get a turret at your bunker, and if your build is susceptible to air units, a turret for your main and natural. The turret at your bunker goes a long way to helping with the void ray all-in. Every little extra bit of dps helps. The last big helpful thing is to have a scout sitting outside the protoss' base so you know if it's an all in. It will buy you that pressure few seconds to start more bunkers to deal with an all in.
Once you hold it off, you can just tweak your build to what your opponent is doing. Don't drastically alter your game plan just because your opponent pressured you, but you can do little tweaks. For example, if you were planning on bio and you hold off DT, I would favor getting a faster ghost academy over starport, as the ghosts can negate DT, and you know your opponent can't get fast robo tech, so you don't need the vikings super fast.
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Problem with the idea of taking a fast third is the idea that they'll still have insurmountable amounts of map control over you. The more spread out you are, the more effective the dt's are. Just like drops.
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There is a lot of good advice here on builds to counter when you know the DTs are coming and how to react to them if you are surprised. However, I think a lot of your follow up needs to depend on the map and the position.
If you try and do any sort of timing push against a DT using toss on a big map like Tal'Darim or SP then you are in for some bad times. The toss will just force you to spend your scans before you even get close to the base and, if they are smart, will have pylons everywhere to keep you running around your huge base and the map in general. In that case, slow, sure macro play would likely be best. Take your win by minimizing loses, protecting your tech (sniping a tech lab easy for DTs), and securing your perimeter. Take a third and make sure you can defend it. Take a small victory and turn it into a larger and larger lead.
However, on a small map or on close positions it would likely just be better to turtle and tech and do a really strong push. Before the toss has a critical amount of T3 units and mass gateways set up. Ghost, tank/banshee, ravens all can be incorporated into powerful builds.
I think the key is just not over reacting and thinking, "He is cheesing me and I should go kill him". The great thing about the warp in mechanic is that you don't need to build the unit if you know it won't be effective. If I am fighting a Terran and I know that he is adequately prepared to stop any sort of DT harass, I just build one to stand outside their perimeter and then work on getting better upgrades and continue teching as per usual. 5 gates with charge and archons are pretty darn good against any sort of messy counter rush timing by the terran.
Going for DT expo is all about knowing when you can get away with harass, when to cut your losses and what you are going to follow up with. You shouldn't be thinking, "How am I going to deal with the DTs?" You should be thinking, "What is he going to follow this up with (6 gate +charge/archons/HTs, etc) and how do I stop that?"
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On July 26 2011 08:02 rmAmnesiac wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 02:59 TimeSpiral wrote:
"just go f*ing kill him"
~Day9's worst contribution to the SC2 community.
p.s. Don't get all butthurt, especially if you don't even know what I mean. indeed. possibly the most missunderstood and missquoted soundbite.
Is that a Teal'C reference, or do you just enjoy that word?
But yes ... I agree with you agreeing with me, I would only add that in addition to being the most misunderstood and the most misquoted, it may also be the most frequently used one evar!
know moar eye seigh!
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I recently went up against some kid who went for a 3gate DT build. After scouting his early 2nd gas i decided to go for an early second gas and went for banshees. 1 banshee+cloack destroyed him because he had no robo, and i built a raven after my first banshee which gave me detection. 2 bunkers with marines+lots of scvs blahblahblah. Banshee opener destroys any DT opening.
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On July 26 2011 23:21 bunnymuncher wrote:
I recently went up against some kid who went for a 3gate DT build. After scouting his early 2nd gas i decided to go for an early second gas and went for banshees. 1 banshee+cloack destroyed him because he had no robo, and i built a raven after my first banshee which gave me detection. 2 bunkers with marines+lots of scvs blahblahblah. Banshee opener destroys any DT opening.
no it doesn't, he was retarded and never got a forge/cannon at main/nat, and prolly doesn't even know where to put the pylon even if he did. DT expands have have mineral surpluses, or they are dumb and blow all minerals on zeals. In that case, it isnt the DT expand that lost him the game it was him not playing that build correctly.
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On July 27 2011 06:48 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 23:21 bunnymuncher wrote:
I recently went up against some kid who went for a 3gate DT build. After scouting his early 2nd gas i decided to go for an early second gas and went for banshees. 1 banshee+cloack destroyed him because he had no robo, and i built a raven after my first banshee which gave me detection. 2 bunkers with marines+lots of scvs blahblahblah. Banshee opener destroys any DT opening. no it doesn't, he was retarded and never got a forge/cannon at main/nat, and prolly doesn't even know where to put the pylon even if he did. DT expands have have mineral surpluses, or they are dumb and blow all minerals on zeals. In that case, it isnt the DT expand that lost him the game it was him not playing that build correctly.
I'm sure it was his build order. The guy I played went for 3 gates and DTs on 1 base. Even if the guy does a 1 gate DT expand he wont get a forge and cannons unless he scouts the banshees. He isnt able to scout the banshees due to a lack of robo->observer. Even if he did go for a forge after he expod and it wasnt ridiculously late, he would not have enough detection/static defense for his whole base. He'd need a fast robo which would be delayed due to the DT tech.
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EPT
