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Hello everybody  . I saw a thread on dealing with DT’s but it was older and aimed more at dealing with DT’s as it was a one base push. With the introduction of the 3 gate DT expand, it is much less all in and has a lot of different transitions fro mit. So I decided to put up a post of my own with more theorycraft to hopefully get a lot more feedback on defending and playing against the DT opener.
I am a high diamond ranked terran player and have been having trouble with DT expand builds. I have thought of a couple different responses and would appreciate feedback on them.
DT expand to me does a slew of various things to the game. It gives them a chance to win outright if the terran is caught without turrets, while it also gives map control by making the terran wait until he has at least 2 scans before he can move out and put any pressure on the protoss. This allows them to tech quickly, spend their chrono boost on probes and upgrades to improve their chances of winning in the end game. I have found if the DT’s are not effective, they are behind but not severely as they can be turned into archons giving them a very strong to fight with against bio. Here are the responses I have thought of on the terran side of things.
1. Taking a fast third base
- If the terran holds off the DT’s well, they can take a fast third for various reasons. One, it will be a little while until the protoss knows about the 3rd CC as he will not have observers for a fairly long time. This allows the terran to rush past the protoss in economy and overwhelm him later in the game. Perhaps even throw in upgrading quickly as well?
2. Raven push
- The typical opening right now for terran in the TvP matchup has been a 2 rax reactor first opening. This provides a good amount of units, and flexibility on what to do with stim timing, medevac timing, and punishing fast nexus builds. If the terran thinks he is going DT’s, he can take a 2nd gas instead of expanding, perhaps put down a 3rd rax, tech to raven, and push into the protoss base and up his ramp as it is unlikely he will have a lot of sentries to hold off such a push up his ramp. I tend to stay away from builds like this as I prefer more macro oriented play to raise my skills all around, but could this be a response that is strong enough to not be held by the toss at the time of attack?
3. Mech Transition
- A typical response that tends to be very strong in the DT expand style is a fast chargelot upgrade after the harass. This upgrade alone can tear up bio and be very useful in the end game, but combined with sentries it can be downright deadly. Also, a high Templar transition is very typical following DT harass. When the DT tech is discovered, a fast ghostmech transition with blue flame hellions, thors, and ghosts can theoretically be very strong in my opinion. They will typically not have a robo quickly so the immortal count will be low, your ghosts can be used to EMP your own thors to stop feedback dmg and to EMP the protoss army as well, and blue flame hellions absolutely tear apart zealots.
4. Typical MMM expand with drops
- There is still the option of going the standard 3 rax starport build with medivac drops. This sounds like the most logical transition as the protoss will not a lot of gateway units out to combat it, but DTs do pretty well against drops. Dropping multiple locations sounds like it can be a significant pain the protoss’ side though
These are my current thoughts on the build and would appreciate feedback and corrections (as I may be incorrect on my thought process on some), and builds I may not be thinking of currently. Hope to hear back from you guys
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Just go fucking kill him. As Day9 would say. If he's going DTs before the 6 minute mark he just will not have enough units to hold off a standard 2 rax with conc shell push unless you engage poorly. Otherwise just out expand him, get a turret in each mineral line and your entrance and... win? I am a protoss and TBH I hate DT expand builds because of how vulnerable they are to early game pressure.
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On July 25 2011 12:12 BrisklyGrape wrote:
Just go fucking kill him. As Day9 would say. If he's going DTs before the 6 minute mark he just will not have enough units to hold off a standard 2 rax with conc shell push unless you engage poorly. Otherwise just out expand him, get a turret in each mineral line and your entrance and... win? I am a protoss and TBH I hate DT expand builds because of how vulnerable they are to early game pressure.
The DT's come at around 7:15-7:30, and the push can be held by staggering your DT's and catching him without enough scans as he only has 1 CC this early in the game. DT expands, if I am correct, are thought to do pretty well against 2 rax pressure openings
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Banshees, cloaked banshees in particular, will pretty much kill him.
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I disagree with the post above me. dt > 2 rax, I'm pretty sure every high level player knows that. The safest route is to get turrets in the beginning. You won't break him with 2 rax, b/c he can just send 1 dt at a time and he can also ff the ramp if he went gas b4 core which is common for these types of build.
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If he's going hardcore DTs, it's relatively easy to spot. You have to scout and be active, count his sentries, as every sentry puts toss behind ~1 more minute in tech; know protoss' standard expand timings. I'm just saying going hardcore DT is a pretty easy build to spot and I can't imagine it's too difficult to throw down an engi bay + turret.
To the posts above me, then don't 2 rax? I don't DT expand in my games because of how weird the timings get and I prefer to not be pigeonholed into a tech before I even get an expand up (MInus a 2-3gate robo expand if I'm worried something is up from gas first or early double gas).
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On July 25 2011 12:12 BrisklyGrape wrote:
Just go fucking kill him. As Day9 would say. If he's going DTs before the 6 minute mark he just will not have enough units to hold off a standard 2 rax with conc shell push unless you engage poorly. Otherwise just out expand him, get a turret in each mineral line and your entrance and... win? I am a protoss and TBH I hate DT expand builds because of how vulnerable they are to early game pressure.
wrong.
maybe at some level players arent able to defend a 2rax with DT build but at higher levels its easily done. once they have DTs out u will lose everything.
as for OP, i like the idea of countering with a fast 3rd, I feel like a raven push wouldnt quite cut it unless you were already going for it in the first place. ups + fast 3rd seems like a great counter
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On July 25 2011 12:12 BrisklyGrape wrote:
Just go fucking kill him. As Day9 would say. If he's going DTs before the 6 minute mark he just will not have enough units to hold off a standard 2 rax with conc shell push unless you engage poorly. Otherwise just out expand him, get a turret in each mineral line and your entrance and... win? I am a protoss and TBH I hate DT expand builds because of how vulnerable they are to early game pressure.
you make it sound like the protoss announces he is going dt expand at the start of the match or something.
depends on the timing, he may or may not be able to hold 2rax pressure, but more often than not it shouldn't be a problem.
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On July 25 2011 12:30 tuestresfat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2011 12:12 BrisklyGrape wrote:
Just go fucking kill him. As Day9 would say. If he's going DTs before the 6 minute mark he just will not have enough units to hold off a standard 2 rax with conc shell push unless you engage poorly. Otherwise just out expand him, get a turret in each mineral line and your entrance and... win? I am a protoss and TBH I hate DT expand builds because of how vulnerable they are to early game pressure. you make it sound like the protoss announces he is going dt expand at the start of the match or something. depends on the timing, he may or may not be able to hold 2rax pressure, but more often than not it shouldn't be a problem.
It's pretty easy to spot is all I am saying. Low sentry count, early second gas screams some sort of tech opening. Especially if the expansion is not up before the 7 minute mark. If you see that you should immediately become suspicious. I don't know what is so hard to understand about this.
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I dont know, if you're dedicated to opening 2 rax reactor first, and you scouted 2 gas with your first scv, just have a reasonable timing on your engi bay based on when you're expecting dts, and take a quick third base. You don't have to do anything crazy unit comp wise to deal with DT play, just make the fewest number of turrets possible, and if you can't snipe the Dark Shrine with your first medivac drop, just addon swap and pump out a raven.
Also, like above posters mentioned, walling off and going banshee puts you in a strong position versus any dedicated dt opening, and gives you the production facility to pump out a raven after your 2 banshees. Watch Day9's daily on Happy. His build works excellently versus dts.
Just like any form of protoss tech, an important thing to consider is the gas expenditure. If he is going dts, he won't have a ton of sentries, and he will probably go templar before going colossus, simply because the tech path is easier. So prioritize ghosts over vikings until your scouting says otherwise, as if he knows his dt card is played, he will probably have a few archons, and ht coming. He will also likely have charge sooner than normal. Drops can do really good damage against this kind of build, because it relies on fragile tech structures.
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Just a funny thing i like to do and thought you should know.
If im sure they're dt expanding i like to bring around 5-6 scvs and build turrets(preferably 1 only ) to push..
( i wall so counter attacks r useless )
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On July 25 2011 12:12 BrisklyGrape wrote:
Just go fucking kill him. As Day9 would say. If he's going DTs before the 6 minute mark he just will not have enough units to hold off a standard 2 rax with conc shell push unless you engage poorly. Otherwise just out expand him, get a turret in each mineral line and your entrance and... win? I am a protoss and TBH I hate DT expand builds because of how vulnerable they are to early game pressure.
Im only in diamond but DT expand builds seem to be highly effective in stopping early aggression, thats actually why I love the open.
I agree that a heavy enough pressure can force a cancel on the expo but it shouldn't break the ramp.
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So can anybody explain to me why banshee/cloaked banshee is not an option presented in this thread by anyone but me?
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On July 25 2011 13:03 TheRabidDeer wrote:
So can anybody explain to me why banshee/cloaked banshee is not an option presented in this thread by anyone but me?
Shucks mentioned walling off and going cloak banshee as well?
Also, if your force a nexus cancel and you are building a CC as well as an engi bay aren't you ahead of a DT expand? Actually a serious question, as I would think if you're expanding behind your pressure and force a cancel you're already up a base.
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On July 25 2011 12:36 BrisklyGrape wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2011 12:30 tuestresfat wrote:On July 25 2011 12:12 BrisklyGrape wrote:
Just go fucking kill him. As Day9 would say. If he's going DTs before the 6 minute mark he just will not have enough units to hold off a standard 2 rax with conc shell push unless you engage poorly. Otherwise just out expand him, get a turret in each mineral line and your entrance and... win? I am a protoss and TBH I hate DT expand builds because of how vulnerable they are to early game pressure. you make it sound like the protoss announces he is going dt expand at the start of the match or something. depends on the timing, he may or may not be able to hold 2rax pressure, but more often than not it shouldn't be a problem. It's pretty easy to spot is all I am saying. Low sentry count, early second gas screams some sort of tech opening. Especially if the expansion is not up before the 7 minute mark. If you see that you should immediately become suspicious. I don't know what is so hard to understand about this.
No, that is not all you are saying. You claimed in your first post that DT fe leaves the protoss too vulnerable to early pressure, and that is the main point that I am disputing.
I feel like we need a specific build order to discuss, there are a few different timings of DT fe that I know of. The one MC created gets both gas at standard timings when skipping first Zealot. It is also very possible and standard to place the Nexus down ~6:30... well before the 7:00 mark you are so cautious of.
If you really think this build is so easy to scout as Terran you should ask Tarson how he died to it at Dreamhack. iirc he went 1 or 2 rax FE (can't remember which) which is the build you are claiming, will break a protoss early in the game. Tarson not only did not break him, but also did not expect DT follow up despite seeing Huk's unit comp. He is just one example btw.
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Then I'm wrong about the being vulnerable to pressure? My point about scouting it still stands. His sentry count determines how tech heavy he is. The great thing about mini pressure builds is that you can just go home. You don't have to commit your army into it if it is so heavily fortified. There are different DT timings depending on when you get your council (after your first, second, or third gate) and when you take your second gas (before or after your core).
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I have been going no gas inbase expo for sometime now, and the best solution for me has been to (besides scouting with the scv) has been to save up scans, the moment you see him 1 baseing and not knowing his composition. Then turret push out to your natural as fast as possible, when you see dts (hoping/trying to save as many scans as possible) and then go in and push the protoss with scans saved up.
Teching to raven takes too much time imo, turtling it out leaves you behind in some cases versus a greedy protoss and
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On July 25 2011 13:13 BrisklyGrape wrote:
Then I'm wrong about the being vulnerable to pressure? My point about scouting it still stands. His sentry count determines how tech heavy he is. The great thing about mini pressure builds is that you can just go home. You don't have to commit your army into it if it is so heavily fortified. There are different DT timings depending on when you get your council (after your first, second, or third gate) and when you take your second gas (before or after your core).
I think we have slightly different build orders in mind which is why we can't reach an agreement.
I said nothing about committing your army as Terran, not quite sure why you even brought that up. It's not relevant.
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On July 25 2011 13:19 Bixs wrote:
I have been going no gas inbase expo for sometime now, and the best solution for me has been to (besides scouting with the scv) has been to save up scans, the moment you see him 1 baseing and not knowing his composition. Then turret push out to your natural as fast as possible, when you see dts (hoping/trying to save as many scans as possible) and then go in and push the protoss with scans saved up.
Teching to raven takes too much time imo, turtling it out leaves you behind in some cases versus a greedy protoss and
so what happens if he's not 1baseing and actually expands, like you would do in any 'fast expand' build
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On July 25 2011 13:26 xXPrOmAsTeRzErGXxMLG wrote:
SCAN SCAN SCAN. TERRAN HAS THE SCANNING ABILITY, USE IT. I WOULDNT CONDONE THE FAST 3RD THOUGH. THE ARTOSIS MINDSET OF GETTING MORE AHEAD IN MY OPINION IS MORE GEARED TOWARDS ZERG. IF YOU SHUT DOWN HIS DTS JUST GO IN FOR THE JUGULAR, I HIGHLY DOUBT HE HAS MUCH OF AN ARMY IF HE GOES FAST DTS
PROMASTERZERG OUT!
I feel like even though trestres and I couldn't reach an agreement at least useful discussion was made.... Why all caps sir? and no you tend not to have a huge army if you go fast DTs, the DTs force Terran to react in some way, giving you map control to set up your expo with a (generally) smaller army (depending on if Terran just went heavy rax or if he went some sort of tech opener).
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On July 25 2011 13:42 xXPrOmAsTeRzErGXxMLG wrote:Show nested quote +so what happens if he's not 1baseing and actually expands, like you would do in any 'fast expand' build WELL HONESTLY HE SHOULD START PRODUCTION ON A 3RD. IF TOSS IS FAST EXPANDING THEN HE REALLY WONT HAVE MUCH OF AN ARMY. ALSO TERRAN CAN JUST WALL UP AND PLOP DOWN A SEIGE OR 2 AND BE PRETTY SAFE UNTIL THE LATE-MIDGAME PROMASTERZERG OUT!
Stop talking in caps already, it's not funny
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On July 25 2011 13:42 BrisklyGrape wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2011 13:26 xXPrOmAsTeRzErGXxMLG wrote:
SCAN SCAN SCAN. TERRAN HAS THE SCANNING ABILITY, USE IT. I WOULDNT CONDONE THE FAST 3RD THOUGH. THE ARTOSIS MINDSET OF GETTING MORE AHEAD IN MY OPINION IS MORE GEARED TOWARDS ZERG. IF YOU SHUT DOWN HIS DTS JUST GO IN FOR THE JUGULAR, I HIGHLY DOUBT HE HAS MUCH OF AN ARMY IF HE GOES FAST DTS
PROMASTERZERG OUT! I feel like even though trestres and I couldn't reach an agreement at least useful discussion was made.... Why all caps sir? and no you tend not to have a huge army if you go fast DTs, the DTs force Terran to react in some way, giving you map control to set up your expo with a (generally) smaller army (depending on if Terran just went heavy rax or if he went some sort of tech opener).
don't feed the troll? haha anyways
to put into more solid numbers, assuming your scouting scv sees:
13 gate
15 gas
16 pylon
17 cyber
'no zealot production'
18/19 2nd gas
stalker @cyber 100% - chrono'ed
you then apply pressure with 2rax or whatever opening you chose and see ~5 stalkers, no nexus.
To me that narrows it down to:
1Base blink all in (viable on some maps) - likely in response to terran no gas FE
2 or 3 Gate voidray - in response to terran wall, late or lack of 2nd gas. probably threw down a delayed nexus
or of course, dt FE. I just don't see how you are able to narrow it down to DT and easily eliminate other possibilities which could kill you if you fail to react properly. throwing down blind ebay and turret is not what you want to do vs blink stalker all in. voidray all in also requires a very different reaction.
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On July 25 2011 12:06 Carthac wrote:
DT expand to me does a slew of various things to the game. It gives them a chance to win outright if the terran is caught without turrets, while it also gives map control by making the terran wait until he has at least 2 scans before he can move out and put any pressure on the protoss. This allows them to tech quickly, spend their chrono boost on probes and upgrades to improve their chances of winning in the end game. I have found if the DT’s are not effective, they are behind but not severely as they can be turned into archons giving them a very strong to fight with against bio. Here are the responses I have thought of on the terran side of things.
I highlighted this part of your post because you are correct. The only way to hard-counter a 3-gate DT expand is to open with cloaked banshees - you can't hard-counter it going 1-rax expand, for example. However, note that you said the protoss is behind - and yes, that is correct. That means, all you really need to do is play normally, but you have an advantage. I don't think there is any need to do anything particularly special.
If you want to hard-counter DTs after going 2-rax, watch Polt vs Huk, GSL Supertournament, ro64 set2 on XNC. Polt follows up his 2-rax poke with 2-starports, getting a raven and some banshees. But note that Huk tried to push his way into Polt's front - if he didn't do so, it may have gone differently.
The danger of putting down that 2-starports reactively is that it's pretty much an all-in. When Polt did his poke, from the unit composition and the way Huk was playing, guessed that DTs were incoming (also probably helped by the fact that Huk uses a lot of DTs in crunch situations). But don't forget, this is Polt and this kind of starsense is not something many people have. If Huk had gone robo or stargate, the game would be quite different.
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I agree that it could be a blink all in but I didn't realize that build still existed, I thought most Toss were keeping to some sort of 3 gate aggressive expand or some variant of #gates + robo (although i have a few extremely greedy econ cheese builds, HuK 20 food, 1gate double gas FE).
At this point it's about scouting, both the expansion timing and the army composition. If you really aren't sure, you can throw a scan down into his base, at worst you see nothing but at best you see what you need to see.
3 Gate voidray if you produce more than one void ray is actually kind of an allinish build, how often do you run into 1 base blink vs #gate voidray vs dt expand on the ladder/in tournament games? Do you have replays of the 1 base blink play (I can't imagine why you would do this against a gasless expand, as a 3 gate aggressive build is much faster and is not allin and the HuK FE is the "counter" to the gasless 1rax FE)
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On July 25 2011 14:02 BrisklyGrape wrote:
I agree that it could be a blink all in but I didn't realize that build still existed, I thought most Toss were keeping to some sort of 3 gate aggressive expand or some variant of #gates + robo (although i have a few extremely greedy econ cheese builds, HuK 20 food, 1gate double gas FE).
At this point it's about scouting, both the expansion timing and the army composition. If you really aren't sure, you can throw a scan down into his base, at worst you see nothing but at best you see what you need to see.
3 Gate voidray if you produce more than one void ray is actually kind of an allinish build, how often do you run into 1 base blink vs #gate voidray vs dt expand on the ladder/in tournament games? Do you have replays of the 1 base blink play (I can't imagine why you would do this against a gasless expand, as a 3 gate aggressive build is much faster and is not allin and the HuK FE is the "counter" to the gasless 1rax FE)
Producing more than one void and throwing down a 3rd gate is definitely very all-in, but that's just what you might be up against.
I can't really say how often people do dt expand / voidray / 1base blink in PvT on any server because I don't play Terran x.x As far as streams of ladder games go, minigun did it a few times on typhon just like 2 days ago.
As far as tournaments go, gasless fe is popular on terminus, and i've seen 1base blink a few times in response. 2 I can remember right now would be LiquidTyler tsl3 ro16 game 2, Naniwa tsl3 finals (whatever game was on terminus).
Spoiler: Tyler's all in was unsuccessful, while Naniwa just barely won.
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On July 25 2011 14:16 tuestresfat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2011 14:02 BrisklyGrape wrote:
I agree that it could be a blink all in but I didn't realize that build still existed, I thought most Toss were keeping to some sort of 3 gate aggressive expand or some variant of #gates + robo (although i have a few extremely greedy econ cheese builds, HuK 20 food, 1gate double gas FE).
At this point it's about scouting, both the expansion timing and the army composition. If you really aren't sure, you can throw a scan down into his base, at worst you see nothing but at best you see what you need to see.
3 Gate voidray if you produce more than one void ray is actually kind of an allinish build, how often do you run into 1 base blink vs #gate voidray vs dt expand on the ladder/in tournament games? Do you have replays of the 1 base blink play (I can't imagine why you would do this against a gasless expand, as a 3 gate aggressive build is much faster and is not allin and the HuK FE is the "counter" to the gasless 1rax FE) Producing more than one void and throwing down a 3rd gate is definitely very all-in, but that's just what you might be up against. I can't really say how often people do dt expand / voidray / 1base blink in PvT on any server because I don't play Terran x.x As far as streams of ladder games go, minigun did it a few times on typhon just like 2 days ago. As far as tournaments go, gasless fe is popular on terminus, and i've seen 1base blink a few times in response. 2 I can remember right now would be LiquidTyler tsl3 ro16 game 2, Naniwa tsl3 finals (whatever game was on terminus). Spoiler: Tyler's all in was unsuccessful, while Naniwa just barely won.
I'll have to look at those games. I guess I come from a hugely jaded view of how to play out games in RTS in general, as I am such a macro oriented player that I allin maybe 5% of my games on the ladder, just because I'm looking to improve my mechanics and such -.-
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One base stalker build should be able to crush any gasless builds.
Check out Code A,Ro 16 match 4 - NSHoSeo_Tassadar vs SlayerS_Ryung Set 3.
Arrives at 7:30-8 with 10 stalkers. Remember that T is down 750 minerals, and possibly more if blindly countering DTs. If T is rushing fast medivac, then even more doomed with low rax count.
I don't believe gasless, or any sub 7+m expand is safe against all P all ins. It just so happens that these T expansion builds are not tested very often by P's but when they are, they are almost always found wanting against the difficult ones [blink, vr, dt].
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Really the best way is to just use turrets. Turrets basically give you an auto win against a dt expand since you probably expanded first, and now hes invested in a bunch of tech that isn't going to be very useful. My personal favorite follow up is to get ghosts and exactly 1 raven followed by a push. Normally they won't hold it, and if they do they at least take a bunch of damage. At worst it fails and you just take a third base.
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On July 25 2011 14:19 BrisklyGrape wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2011 14:16 tuestresfat wrote:On July 25 2011 14:02 BrisklyGrape wrote:
I agree that it could be a blink all in but I didn't realize that build still existed, I thought most Toss were keeping to some sort of 3 gate aggressive expand or some variant of #gates + robo (although i have a few extremely greedy econ cheese builds, HuK 20 food, 1gate double gas FE).
At this point it's about scouting, both the expansion timing and the army composition. If you really aren't sure, you can throw a scan down into his base, at worst you see nothing but at best you see what you need to see.
3 Gate voidray if you produce more than one void ray is actually kind of an allinish build, how often do you run into 1 base blink vs #gate voidray vs dt expand on the ladder/in tournament games? Do you have replays of the 1 base blink play (I can't imagine why you would do this against a gasless expand, as a 3 gate aggressive build is much faster and is not allin and the HuK FE is the "counter" to the gasless 1rax FE) Producing more than one void and throwing down a 3rd gate is definitely very all-in, but that's just what you might be up against. I can't really say how often people do dt expand / voidray / 1base blink in PvT on any server because I don't play Terran x.x As far as streams of ladder games go, minigun did it a few times on typhon just like 2 days ago. As far as tournaments go, gasless fe is popular on terminus, and i've seen 1base blink a few times in response. 2 I can remember right now would be LiquidTyler tsl3 ro16 game 2, Naniwa tsl3 finals (whatever game was on terminus). Spoiler: Tyler's all in was unsuccessful, while Naniwa just barely won. I'll have to look at those games. I guess I come from a hugely jaded view of how to play out games in RTS in general, as I am such a macro oriented player that I allin maybe 5% of my games on the ladder, just because I'm looking to improve my mechanics and such -.-
There's nothing with that, you just have to realize that other people will try to all in you and you have to tailor your macro based builds to be safe from those all ins. And the first thing you have to do is be able to scout the all in, which is what we're discussing in this thread.
btw
On July 25 2011 14:02 BrisklyGrape wrote:
(although i have a few extremely greedy econ cheese builds, HuK 20 food, 1gate double gas FE).
(I can't imagine why you would do this against a gasless expand, as a 3 gate aggressive build is much faster and is not allin and the HuK FE is the "counter" to the gasless 1rax FE)
first of all, I'm pretty sure it's 1gas 20 Nexus? haha I really can't imagine double gas with 19 mining probes.
Second, that build is unviable from what I know. You will die to variations of 2rax and it can be done by reaction, not blindly. Yea true, chances are the non-grandmasters on ladder won't recognize and punish properly, but I just don't like refining builds that I know can be exploited =[
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It is 1 gas 20 nexus, i was talking about two separate builds: HuK expand, and the 1 gate double gas FE which is pretty popular. I've never been exploited by a 2 rax reaction so I guess I am not at the level that will be exploited but I have not really ever had problems with the build against a true 1rax gasless FE. It keeps you on even terms or slightly ahead against the Terran.
Anyway, back to the original problem of scouting it. I think the main problem is the tipoff for a DT expand is low sentry count. Which goes to your three builds that toss could be doing. You can't be safe against everything, you have to sacrifice something even if you're trying to be "safe." (I don't know about the Terran safest build, but a 2-3gate robo expand from Protoss is the "safest" build but its sacrifice is a later nexus as a result of being safer and being able to scout).
Are Terrans trying to do too many things at once? I've always wondered whether Terrans nowadays are trying to tech/expand/get infrastructure all at once too quickly (I consider addons as infrastructure, then a lot of Terrans seem to add a factory and expo at the same time while pushing with their two rax pressure, that just seems like a lot when Toss gets a couple of gates and expos in the MU).
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On July 25 2011 14:33 tuestresfat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2011 14:19 BrisklyGrape wrote:On July 25 2011 14:16 tuestresfat wrote:On July 25 2011 14:02 BrisklyGrape wrote:
I agree that it could be a blink all in but I didn't realize that build still existed, I thought most Toss were keeping to some sort of 3 gate aggressive expand or some variant of #gates + robo (although i have a few extremely greedy econ cheese builds, HuK 20 food, 1gate double gas FE).
At this point it's about scouting, both the expansion timing and the army composition. If you really aren't sure, you can throw a scan down into his base, at worst you see nothing but at best you see what you need to see.
3 Gate voidray if you produce more than one void ray is actually kind of an allinish build, how often do you run into 1 base blink vs #gate voidray vs dt expand on the ladder/in tournament games? Do you have replays of the 1 base blink play (I can't imagine why you would do this against a gasless expand, as a 3 gate aggressive build is much faster and is not allin and the HuK FE is the "counter" to the gasless 1rax FE) Producing more than one void and throwing down a 3rd gate is definitely very all-in, but that's just what you might be up against. I can't really say how often people do dt expand / voidray / 1base blink in PvT on any server because I don't play Terran x.x As far as streams of ladder games go, minigun did it a few times on typhon just like 2 days ago. As far as tournaments go, gasless fe is popular on terminus, and i've seen 1base blink a few times in response. 2 I can remember right now would be LiquidTyler tsl3 ro16 game 2, Naniwa tsl3 finals (whatever game was on terminus). Spoiler: Tyler's all in was unsuccessful, while Naniwa just barely won. I'll have to look at those games. I guess I come from a hugely jaded view of how to play out games in RTS in general, as I am such a macro oriented player that I allin maybe 5% of my games on the ladder, just because I'm looking to improve my mechanics and such -.- There's nothing with that, you just have to realize that other people will try to all in you and you have to tailor your macro based builds to be safe from those all ins. And the first thing you have to do is be able to scout the all in, which is what we're discussing in this thread. btw Show nested quote +On July 25 2011 14:02 BrisklyGrape wrote:
(although i have a few extremely greedy econ cheese builds, HuK 20 food, 1gate double gas FE).
(I can't imagine why you would do this against a gasless expand, as a 3 gate aggressive build is much faster and is not allin and the HuK FE is the "counter" to the gasless 1rax FE) first of all, I'm pretty sure it's 1gas 20 Nexus? haha I really can't imagine double gas with 19 mining probes. Second, that build is unviable from what I know. You will die to variations of 2rax and it can be done by reaction, not blindly. Yea true, chances are the non-grandmasters on ladder won't recognize and punish properly, but I just don't like refining builds that I know can be exploited =[
Whattttt?? Did you see Huk in GSTL, he held a 3 rax w/ 1 gate FE, not sure if it was that variation, but I think it was. I'm sure 2 rax is no problem if Huk can stop 3 rax all-in.
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On July 25 2011 15:05 SoKHo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2011 14:33 tuestresfat wrote:On July 25 2011 14:19 BrisklyGrape wrote:On July 25 2011 14:16 tuestresfat wrote:On July 25 2011 14:02 BrisklyGrape wrote:
I agree that it could be a blink all in but I didn't realize that build still existed, I thought most Toss were keeping to some sort of 3 gate aggressive expand or some variant of #gates + robo (although i have a few extremely greedy econ cheese builds, HuK 20 food, 1gate double gas FE).
At this point it's about scouting, both the expansion timing and the army composition. If you really aren't sure, you can throw a scan down into his base, at worst you see nothing but at best you see what you need to see.
3 Gate voidray if you produce more than one void ray is actually kind of an allinish build, how often do you run into 1 base blink vs #gate voidray vs dt expand on the ladder/in tournament games? Do you have replays of the 1 base blink play (I can't imagine why you would do this against a gasless expand, as a 3 gate aggressive build is much faster and is not allin and the HuK FE is the "counter" to the gasless 1rax FE) Producing more than one void and throwing down a 3rd gate is definitely very all-in, but that's just what you might be up against. I can't really say how often people do dt expand / voidray / 1base blink in PvT on any server because I don't play Terran x.x As far as streams of ladder games go, minigun did it a few times on typhon just like 2 days ago. As far as tournaments go, gasless fe is popular on terminus, and i've seen 1base blink a few times in response. 2 I can remember right now would be LiquidTyler tsl3 ro16 game 2, Naniwa tsl3 finals (whatever game was on terminus). Spoiler: Tyler's all in was unsuccessful, while Naniwa just barely won. I'll have to look at those games. I guess I come from a hugely jaded view of how to play out games in RTS in general, as I am such a macro oriented player that I allin maybe 5% of my games on the ladder, just because I'm looking to improve my mechanics and such -.- There's nothing with that, you just have to realize that other people will try to all in you and you have to tailor your macro based builds to be safe from those all ins. And the first thing you have to do is be able to scout the all in, which is what we're discussing in this thread. btw On July 25 2011 14:02 BrisklyGrape wrote:
(although i have a few extremely greedy econ cheese builds, HuK 20 food, 1gate double gas FE).
(I can't imagine why you would do this against a gasless expand, as a 3 gate aggressive build is much faster and is not allin and the HuK FE is the "counter" to the gasless 1rax FE) first of all, I'm pretty sure it's 1gas 20 Nexus? haha I really can't imagine double gas with 19 mining probes. Second, that build is unviable from what I know. You will die to variations of 2rax and it can be done by reaction, not blindly. Yea true, chances are the non-grandmasters on ladder won't recognize and punish properly, but I just don't like refining builds that I know can be exploited =[ Whattttt?? Did you see Huk in GSTL, he held a 3 rax w/ 1 gate FE, not sure if it was that variation, but I think it was. I'm sure 2 rax is no problem if Huk can stop 3 rax all-in.
Yes I saw that game, he used a variant, a much safer one. And don't assume 3rax is more difficult to hold than 2rax... the timings are very different.
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I see some okay responses, but I was more looking for what people think is the optimal follow-up, not how I should just kill him after I shut down his DT tech.
I believe the pushing with 2 rax and scvs, then building turrets at his front is definitely a cute contain idea :p. I liked the idea of playing it safe and turret pushing out, saving scans, then moving out when I had a few medivacs. The 2 starport build was interesting as well, but seemed pretty risky
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On July 25 2011 15:21 Carthac wrote:
I see some okay responses, but I was more looking for what people think is the optimal follow-up, not how I should just kill him after I shut down his DT tech.
I believe the pushing with 2 rax and scvs, then building turrets at his front is definitely a cute contain idea :p. I liked the idea of playing it safe and turret pushing out, saving scans, then moving out when I had a few medivacs. The 2 starport build was interesting as well, but seemed pretty risky
haha sorry, we went on a tangent about scouting and didn't even discuss follow ups in the least. that would be my bad
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On July 25 2011 15:21 Carthac wrote:
I see some okay responses, but I was more looking for what people think is the optimal follow-up, not how I should just kill him after I shut down his DT tech.
I believe the pushing with 2 rax and scvs, then building turrets at his front is definitely a cute contain idea :p. I liked the idea of playing it safe and turret pushing out, saving scans, then moving out when I had a few medivacs. The 2 starport build was interesting as well, but seemed pretty risky
I feel that the optimal follow up is to play normally but you have an advantage (the size of which is how effectively you've dealt with the harass). I don't believe in trying to do any contain because those things rally go well.
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a lot of very, very poor responses here. 3 gate dt expand is a very strong build and there isn't one 'correct' response. it is purely reactionary, but no just going cloaked banshee or 'go fucking kill him' isn't the answer. i'm not sure it really needs to be explained why these are not the answer. your reaction needs to be based entirely on what your opponents follow up, something which becomes infinitely harder because dts deny map presence so effectively. turtling into a faster in base 3rd and a raven before medivacs is usually my response but this depends on protoss's response which you have to gauge mainly through scans.
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I havent seen any recent TvP's from Korea, but last I saw they basically all get engi bays before 6 mins.
Usually with such a fast bay i can blindly put down turrets when im suspicious.
And from my experience, once you hold early game DT's you've won the game.
Edit: I would like to mention that I actually have a harder time dealing with DT's in the lategame, but thats because I refuse to make planetaries probably.
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On July 25 2011 18:29 rmAmnesiac wrote:
a lot of very, very poor responses here. 3 gate dt expand is a very strong build and there isn't one 'correct' response. it is purely reactionary, but no just going cloaked banshee or 'go fucking kill him' isn't the answer. i'm not sure it really needs to be explained why these are not the answer. your reaction needs to be based entirely on what your opponents follow up, something which becomes infinitely harder because dts deny map presence so effectively. turtling into a faster in base 3rd and a raven before medivacs is usually my response but this depends on protoss's response which you have to gauge mainly through scans.
Actually you can just go freakin kill him depending on your own build^^
But my standard respons to a dt opening (low chrono, early 2nd gas, low but existing sentry count pre-6 minutes) depends on my own opening.
With a 2rax i transition to starport->raven-> double medvac -> push & expand
With a 1rax fe I grab a engi before 2nd gas, turret at choke, ghost stim shield push (with a few scans saved up)
Both pushes hit before follow up tech kicks in for protoss (unless it's a gateway followup) and give you a nice opportunity to do damage & scouting.
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carthac i tried to tell you man, assuming you 2 rax expanded, get an e-bay if you see a lack of gas invested in my units by poking the front with scvs or even units. If you see sentries, don't worry...if you see no sentries, get an e-bay, because it's likely going to be DTs or Voids. From there, you can get an early 3rd CC, because P just spent their entire "tech money" towards something that you are now safe against.
If the P tries to also take a fast third with his DT map control, use drops to negate the fact that he can harass you during your move-out. If he defends with DTs at your drop, just pick up and get out.
Carthac fighting!
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United Kingdom1381 Posts
I've seen pros throw down a ghost academy and rely on EMPs to fend off the DTs.
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play 1 rax expand and attack with a scv marine and maruader u can then break the ramp and punish any sort of techy opening by killing probes or killing pylons or generally just making the protoss play a little more defensibly while u get the economic advantage.
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I personally like to go marine-thor-banshee plus a raven against dt's, which you can actually do off of 1 base. You can harass with the banshees and push as soon as you repel the first wave of dt's or just when you feel your army is ready. Thors are very difficult to beat with a pure gateway army, let alone a smaller one because of dt's.
Something like this:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=197990
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to op:
Taking a fast third base:
It is a good Response, however what happends if Protoss also goes for one, and vs a good Protoss you will need to spend a few scans to get up the turrets to properly protect it.
Raven Push:
What needs to be considered is that to get a raven out, the terran has to tech about as far as the Protoss has to get dt. Granted, raven is really good vs dt, but Protoss can always make archons meaning it will come down to micro. (assuming equal amounts of expanding)
Mech transition:
This Actually has nothing to do with DTs, or dealing with the harrass. In theory it sounds great, but how do you actually get there in practice? How do you deal with DTs? (getting ebay or raven is not really optimal if you want to go mech) Getting the ghosts first is ofc one option, but quite risky and somewhat hard to pull of. Also, If I were Protoss I would be pretty fast to put up a robo bay after my harrass, somekinda detection(and spotting for potential drops) is needed.
Typical MMM expand with drops:
The problem with 3 rax is that it hits too late, the dts will already be out and typicly you will not have enough scans to march to the other side of the map.
Cloak Banshee:
If he goes dt and you go cloak banshee with a wall-of. You will get an almost free win. However you cannot do this reactionally (must be pre-planned). But from what I've seen Happy does this often and he is quite succesful, from what I can figure out protoss cannot hard counter this without taking some risks himself.
The 2 rax conc push:
Is what I do vs toss, I feel its the best all-round build. Best case is that you kill him, but this is rare and moving up the ramp is very risky, 1 gate FE is shut down however. But in any case you can see his unit composition, which really should tip you off. If it seems he is teching I usually scan to see if its robo(noone hides a robo). If not I assume dt or voidray(proxied), which in either case will require a starport (raven or viking). Just to be sure I save energy for scans.
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He will not have enough units to defend an early 2 rax with con. shell. He also wont have enough FFs if he's going DTs to protect his ramp. Just put up a lot of early pressure and kill him. I got bored of always pushing for the maco game and instead do pressure expands. 2 racks does fine against a DT opener.
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either 1 rax gasless FE or 1 rax concussive shells push FE into fast ebay (5:30-6:30) followed by a ghost academy at 8 min
the most likely transition from a dt will probably be a heavy zealot/archon mix, and you'll need ghosts + upgrades to deal with it. a 10 minute push with 2-3 ghosts, plus a couple of scans saved up should be enough to win the game.
(ofc this is dependent on you getting a turret at your mineral line by 7min otherwise you're going to waste a lot of scans and your push will be very weak)
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raven is better than turrets imo because obviously turrets cant move and while you may have your mineral lines protected with turrets all the production facilities and supply depots are in danger
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"just go f*ing kill him"
~Day9's worst contribution to the SC2 community.
p.s. Don't get all butthurt, especially if you don't even know what I mean.
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On July 25 2011 12:12 BrisklyGrape wrote:
Just go fucking kill him. As Day9 would say. If he's going DTs before the 6 minute mark he just will not have enough units to hold off a standard 2 rax with conc shell push unless you engage poorly. Otherwise just out expand him, get a turret in each mineral line and your entrance and... win? I am a protoss and TBH I hate DT expand builds because of how vulnerable they are to early game pressure.
I 2 rax, reactor first, conc shell pressure/scout every TvP.
With FF's + Ramp, you would be hard pressed to kill him with a 2 rax pressure. However, if he controls poorly, you may be able to sneak an SCV up the ramp and snipe a sentry. Maybe.
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Damn. Another Protoss build order that I'll have to worry about. I haven't really run into this yet at my lvl though (high masters), but I haven't played much.
This build looks similar to two gas 3-gate expand into 6 gate 2-base attack. Both gets 2 gases with stalkers to deny scouting. So sometimes I expect DT/Void Ray, get engineering bay/turret only to get crushed by the 6gate attack.
"Just go f'ing donate your army to cloaked units!" indeed.
You guys are talking too much about "I know exactly what's hes gonna do and going to perfectly counter it with this BO" or about what you're going to do. It's much more important to see what the Protoss is doing (the timings), what scouting info you can gather, and how you can figure out his build.
3gate DT seems like a solid build. The 3gates should give enough units to defend vs anything. Any decent Protoss can cut your army in half if you try to go up the ramp. A reaper opening might be useful in scouting this though.
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The best response if you know before the game that your opponent is going for a 3 gate DT expand, is of course a marine tank raven all-in off of 1 base, with some banshees for good measure.
However, you can't really scout a DT expand during a game and then be able to do your build as reaction to it, however you can save scans, build a raven, get turrets up in time, and then abuse your eco and army advantage to convert it into a win. Standard bio play with some ghost and a fast third should set you up nicely to for a win, and utilize the early e-bay for fast upgrades, you should have a sick 2-2 timing with 2-4 ghosts, and a sizeable bioball, heavy marine count will help deal with the larger number of zealots.
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On July 26 2011 00:04 k!llua wrote:
either 1 rax gasless FE or 1 rax concussive shells push FE into fast ebay (5:30-6:30) followed by a ghost academy at 8 min
the most likely transition from a dt will probably be a heavy zealot/archon mix, and you'll need ghosts + upgrades to deal with it. a 10 minute push with 2-3 ghosts, plus a couple of scans saved up should be enough to win the game.
(ofc this is dependent on you getting a turret at your mineral line by 7min otherwise you're going to waste a lot of scans and your push will be very weak)
I really like this idea. I feel the fast ebay will do great vs DTs and void ray pushes as well. I can put down the turret, then if I discover it is DTs hit him with a 3 ghost stim push on most any map while progressing my tech to aid me in the late game. The push has the capability to do a lot of damage while allowing me to start a 3rd base as well
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Cloaked banshees isnt a good idea, please stop saying that. Every time I see a bunker wall-off when DT rushing I know to place a forge at 6:00 and a single cannon in the main. It's fine because I have a mineral surplus anyway, you just basically cut a few zealots cause you know there's not going to be any pressure. My 3 DTs are out at 6:50, cloaked banshees are out at 7:30
Just save a scan or build your CC/OC in base and get ghosts it's not that hard to defend. In fact, DT expand is pretty fragile because it loses to a lot of early pressure
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keep in mind every turret you place beyond the first one (considering that you're upgrading +1 weapons) is going to delay your factory (which means medivacs) that much sooner, if you're producing constantly out of 3 rax (which is the most normal transition from any 1 rax expand, gasless or otherwise).
i can post a replay of me doing a +1 ghost timing hit vs a mid-ranked GM player on SEA when i get home if you like. from memory, however, my macro is a bit sloppy in places so i don't have quite as many units as i should (i think im about 10-15 supply short).
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On July 26 2011 04:48 k!llua wrote:
keep in mind every turret you place beyond the first one (considering that you're upgrading +1 weapons) is going to delay your factory (which means medivacs) that much sooner, if you're producing constantly out of 3 rax (which is the most normal transition from any 1 rax expand, gasless or otherwise).
i can post a replay of me doing a +1 ghost timing hit vs a mid-ranked GM player on SEA when i get home if you like. from memory, however, my macro is a bit sloppy in places so i don't have quite as many units as i should (i think im about 10-15 supply short).
If you know DTs or Voids are coming the medivacs aren't really a priority, though, right?
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On July 26 2011 04:49 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 04:48 k!llua wrote:
keep in mind every turret you place beyond the first one (considering that you're upgrading +1 weapons) is going to delay your factory (which means medivacs) that much sooner, if you're producing constantly out of 3 rax (which is the most normal transition from any 1 rax expand, gasless or otherwise).
i can post a replay of me doing a +1 ghost timing hit vs a mid-ranked GM player on SEA when i get home if you like. from memory, however, my macro is a bit sloppy in places so i don't have quite as many units as i should (i think im about 10-15 supply short). If you know DTs or Voids are coming the medivacs aren't really a priority, though, right?
DTs, not so much, but Vikings will help a lot against the Voids.
edit: i'm not saying you'll get the vikings out in time for the void rays, but if you're facing sustained 3 gate VR pressure, you might have a situation where you're still fending off the pressure and then you have the option of getting the vikings out instead of a medivac.
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On July 26 2011 04:48 k!llua wrote:
keep in mind every turret you place beyond the first one (considering that you're upgrading +1 weapons) is going to delay your factory (which means medivacs) that much sooner, if you're producing constantly out of 3 rax (which is the most normal transition from any 1 rax expand, gasless or otherwise).
i can post a replay of me doing a +1 ghost timing hit vs a mid-ranked GM player on SEA when i get home if you like. from memory, however, my macro is a bit sloppy in places so i don't have quite as many units as i should (i think im about 10-15 supply short).
That would be great thanks
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On July 26 2011 02:59 TimeSpiral wrote:
"just go f*ing kill him"
~Day9's worst contribution to the SC2 community.
p.s. Don't get all butthurt, especially if you don't even know what I mean.
indeed. possibly the most missunderstood and missquoted soundbite.
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On July 26 2011 03:51 vnlegend wrote:
Damn. Another Protoss build order that I'll have to worry about. I haven't really run into this yet at my lvl though (high masters), but I haven't played much.
This build looks similar to two gas 3-gate expand into 6 gate 2-base attack. Both gets 2 gases with stalkers to deny scouting. So sometimes I expect DT/Void Ray, get engineering bay/turret only to get crushed by the 6gate attack.
"Just go f'ing donate your army to cloaked units!" indeed.
You guys are talking too much about "I know exactly what's hes gonna do and going to perfectly counter it with this BO" or about what you're going to do. It's much more important to see what the Protoss is doing (the timings), what scouting info you can gather, and how you can figure out his build.
3gate DT seems like a solid build. The 3gates should give enough units to defend vs anything. Any decent Protoss can cut your army in half if you try to go up the ramp. A reaper opening might be useful in scouting this though.
high masters and you haven't played vs 3 gate dt expand? hmm.
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Hey,
Been thinking alot about what the best way is to get detection against dt,s and 3gate dt expand (whatever that is)
Terran has the worst detection from all races by far (qq) and they are left with turrets, ravens, scans
After alot of thinking..and also a few experiences in practice i have come to the conclusion that the best detection method is the orbital scan
Turret: its relativly cheap but the problem is that its static ,has a limited range,and has usually no other function against toss beside detection
you will need to spend quiet alot of minerals on turrets if you want to be truly dt safe on all bases and then you still have to safe up scans when you move out or incase dt hide outside range turret inbase..
so:while 1 turret near the ramp and bunker will prove immensly usefull for the first 3 dt,s
turrets are not the definite answer to dts and you will at least need scans if you actually want to do something
Raven:while the raven is immensly usefull in general against protoss its detection capabilities are rather limited
The raven is verry fragile compared to observers wich never die and it can only be at one spot at a time
Getting a raven only for detection feels expensive (you will need at least 2 to be able to move out and safe at home) but against protoss you it has more uses so guess its somewhat worth it
the disadvantage of the raven and why i dont consider it a good option early game is that it takes a while to get a raven out , you need build a few tech structures to wich you maybe dont want to commit yet early in game
Scan:first i hated the scans as detection because the dt,s always managed to move outside range before beeing killed
another disadvantage is that you actually have to perform the detection yourself, its not there permanent like when there is a turret or raven and this is a huge disadvantage
unless you pro since then you can be all over the map at the same time, but this is advice for pros annyway
if your not a pro, i strongly recommand turrets..
the huge advantage is that scans are realy free... the cost you nothing and in the end this method of detection actually makes you monney
what i would sugest is to build an extra inbase cc to orbital purely with the aim to use it for scans to detect and scout
you have the added benefit of suv production and the ability to eventually float the cc to a 3rd or 4th expansion
while the oc initially costs you 550 minerals, you will soon make this monney back since you wont need to spend all its energy on scans and you can get a few suply drops in to get your monney back later
why imo this should be viable against 3gate dt expand is that 3gate dt,s isnt as strong as an attack as the usual 3 gate or 4 gate attacks wich allows you to safely cut a few units and build the extra oc
well this all coming from a somewhat lower lvl player lol but hope some people find it usefull annyway
building tons of turrets btw is what i saw goody do earlier today in a game on stream against 3gate dt expand (forgot against who) where it did work verry well to completely shut down the dts, but still
he had like 10 turrets and i somehow had a feeling that that just couldnt be the "best" way of dealing with dt,s
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On July 26 2011 03:51 vnlegend wrote:
You guys are talking too much about "I know exactly what's hes gonna do and going to perfectly counter it with this BO" or about what you're going to do. It's much more important to see what the Protoss is doing (the timings), what scouting info you can gather, and how you can figure out his build.
3gate DT seems like a solid build. The 3gates should give enough units to defend vs anything. Any decent Protoss can cut your army in half if you try to go up the ramp. A reaper opening might be useful in scouting this though.
Best advice in terms of scouting the build so far. I think reaper expand plus follow up light pressure is the best way to identify this build from all the other possibilities.
"go fucking kill him" is the worst advice on this thread.
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I generally open 1 rax fe or marauder fe, so take this with a grain of salt, but when you scout that 2nd gas, there's a few things it's likely to be: DT expand, stargate pressure/all-in, blink all in, 3 gate expo to 6gate. Personally, I haven't seen much of that blink all in, but I'll mention it since others seem to see it. If you use a build that doesn't get concussive right away, you'll have a bunker up anyways, but you should have one ready to go. An engineering bay deals with both DT and Stargate pressure, and helps a great deal with a void ray all-in. My standard timing is to get the engi bay after my 3rd barracks. I don't remember the timing of that when you do the 2 rax pressure, so you may need to get the engi bay right when you expand. Regardless, get a turret at your bunker, and if your build is susceptible to air units, a turret for your main and natural. The turret at your bunker goes a long way to helping with the void ray all-in. Every little extra bit of dps helps. The last big helpful thing is to have a scout sitting outside the protoss' base so you know if it's an all in. It will buy you that pressure few seconds to start more bunkers to deal with an all in.
Once you hold it off, you can just tweak your build to what your opponent is doing. Don't drastically alter your game plan just because your opponent pressured you, but you can do little tweaks. For example, if you were planning on bio and you hold off DT, I would favor getting a faster ghost academy over starport, as the ghosts can negate DT, and you know your opponent can't get fast robo tech, so you don't need the vikings super fast.
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Problem with the idea of taking a fast third is the idea that they'll still have insurmountable amounts of map control over you. The more spread out you are, the more effective the dt's are. Just like drops.
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There is a lot of good advice here on builds to counter when you know the DTs are coming and how to react to them if you are surprised. However, I think a lot of your follow up needs to depend on the map and the position.
If you try and do any sort of timing push against a DT using toss on a big map like Tal'Darim or SP then you are in for some bad times. The toss will just force you to spend your scans before you even get close to the base and, if they are smart, will have pylons everywhere to keep you running around your huge base and the map in general. In that case, slow, sure macro play would likely be best. Take your win by minimizing loses, protecting your tech (sniping a tech lab easy for DTs), and securing your perimeter. Take a third and make sure you can defend it. Take a small victory and turn it into a larger and larger lead.
However, on a small map or on close positions it would likely just be better to turtle and tech and do a really strong push. Before the toss has a critical amount of T3 units and mass gateways set up. Ghost, tank/banshee, ravens all can be incorporated into powerful builds.
I think the key is just not over reacting and thinking, "He is cheesing me and I should go kill him". The great thing about the warp in mechanic is that you don't need to build the unit if you know it won't be effective. If I am fighting a Terran and I know that he is adequately prepared to stop any sort of DT harass, I just build one to stand outside their perimeter and then work on getting better upgrades and continue teching as per usual. 5 gates with charge and archons are pretty darn good against any sort of messy counter rush timing by the terran.
Going for DT expo is all about knowing when you can get away with harass, when to cut your losses and what you are going to follow up with. You shouldn't be thinking, "How am I going to deal with the DTs?" You should be thinking, "What is he going to follow this up with (6 gate +charge/archons/HTs, etc) and how do I stop that?"
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On July 26 2011 08:02 rmAmnesiac wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 02:59 TimeSpiral wrote:
"just go f*ing kill him"
~Day9's worst contribution to the SC2 community.
p.s. Don't get all butthurt, especially if you don't even know what I mean. indeed. possibly the most missunderstood and missquoted soundbite.
Is that a Teal'C reference, or do you just enjoy that word?
But yes ... I agree with you agreeing with me, I would only add that in addition to being the most misunderstood and the most misquoted, it may also be the most frequently used one evar!
know moar eye seigh!
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I recently went up against some kid who went for a 3gate DT build. After scouting his early 2nd gas i decided to go for an early second gas and went for banshees. 1 banshee+cloack destroyed him because he had no robo, and i built a raven after my first banshee which gave me detection. 2 bunkers with marines+lots of scvs blahblahblah. Banshee opener destroys any DT opening.
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On July 26 2011 23:21 bunnymuncher wrote:
I recently went up against some kid who went for a 3gate DT build. After scouting his early 2nd gas i decided to go for an early second gas and went for banshees. 1 banshee+cloack destroyed him because he had no robo, and i built a raven after my first banshee which gave me detection. 2 bunkers with marines+lots of scvs blahblahblah. Banshee opener destroys any DT opening.
no it doesn't, he was retarded and never got a forge/cannon at main/nat, and prolly doesn't even know where to put the pylon even if he did. DT expands have have mineral surpluses, or they are dumb and blow all minerals on zeals. In that case, it isnt the DT expand that lost him the game it was him not playing that build correctly.
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On July 27 2011 06:48 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 23:21 bunnymuncher wrote:
I recently went up against some kid who went for a 3gate DT build. After scouting his early 2nd gas i decided to go for an early second gas and went for banshees. 1 banshee+cloack destroyed him because he had no robo, and i built a raven after my first banshee which gave me detection. 2 bunkers with marines+lots of scvs blahblahblah. Banshee opener destroys any DT opening. no it doesn't, he was retarded and never got a forge/cannon at main/nat, and prolly doesn't even know where to put the pylon even if he did. DT expands have have mineral surpluses, or they are dumb and blow all minerals on zeals. In that case, it isnt the DT expand that lost him the game it was him not playing that build correctly.
I'm sure it was his build order. The guy I played went for 3 gates and DTs on 1 base. Even if the guy does a 1 gate DT expand he wont get a forge and cannons unless he scouts the banshees. He isnt able to scout the banshees due to a lack of robo->observer. Even if he did go for a forge after he expod and it wasnt ridiculously late, he would not have enough detection/static defense for his whole base. He'd need a fast robo which would be delayed due to the DT tech.
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EPT
