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All diamond level and a couple masters level opponents. Anyway, my point is that I main protoss and I have no idea how a protoss should hold this push. I was wondering if any better protoss players than I had any ideas?
[D] TvP Thor/Banshee/Raven/Marine push
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OlorinPA
28 Posts
All diamond level and a couple masters level opponents. Anyway, my point is that I main protoss and I have no idea how a protoss should hold this push. I was wondering if any better protoss players than I had any ideas? | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
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L3g3nd_
New Zealand10461 Posts
i assume marine thor or marine banshee would be a lot earlier, and your gas would be spent more efficiently | ||
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Jumbled
1543 Posts
On March 03 2011 14:59 Whitewing wrote: The push is actually stronger, I find, with tanks instead of thors. You can harass with the banshees, slow push the tanks, and if the stalkers go after your banshees, you can pull forces into your siege tank range. The OP's push does sound a little scarier than the conventional marine/tank/banshee/raven all-in, mainly because the thors also provide some extra AA and shut down force fields. It sounds like it comes out quite late for a 1-base attack, however, and that could be a big weakness. Unfortunately I haven't been able to watch any of the replays yet as GameReplays seems to be having a fit. | ||
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OlorinPA
28 Posts
On March 03 2011 15:08 L3g3nd_ wrote: seems very gas heavy, how does it compare to just marine banshee or marine thor? i assume marine thor or marine banshee would be a lot earlier, and your gas would be spent more efficiently That's a good question. You open standard 1/1/1. You start the armory as soon as the first banshee is started. And a thor as soon as the armory is finished. You pretty much have enough gas to make banshees and thors continuously up until the push (minus a couple of seconds of downtime on both the factory and starport). You are more limited on thor build time than gas. So while you could skip the banshees and make the armory earlier, you will only get one extra thor out and no banshees. FF can't help the protoss b/c if he does you just move one thor forward to break it down. And banshees fly over the FF anyway. And anyway if you push earlier with just marine thor, you have waaaay fewer marines. The mass of marines is actually quite important b/c gateway heavy armies have difficulty killing off the marines. The whole build is designed around reaching a critical mass that the protoss will have a very difficult time dealing with. | ||
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OlorinPA
28 Posts
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HellsHeaven
South Africa12 Posts
Also since you dont have stim, void rays should really be a pain in the for you to deal with, esp since he should have 4+. I'm not sure since you dont say, but do your thors have strike cannons? | ||
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Blyadischa
419 Posts
The Marine/Thor/Banshee composition is definitely the strongest mid game composition to get. It is incredibly difficult to stop. In Synystyr's Anti-Colossus thread he has this same composition but goes 2 naked rax expand w/ 3 bunkers to have a giant push @~15 minutes. | ||
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OlorinPA
28 Posts
On March 03 2011 15:20 HellsHeaven wrote: Ive used a similar push before and the one game I lost was to a really fast HT storm tech since you cant put on to much pressure before moving out. Also since you dont have stim, void rays should really be a pain in the for you to deal with, esp since he should have 4+. I'm not sure since you dont say, but do your thors have strike cannons? No, all gas goes to factory/starport/armory/banshees/raven/thors. I don't know how storm would fare against this. Almost no protoss has storm researched by the 11:00 mark. I've beaten several players who did rush HT's, but they didn't have storm finished. As far as voidrays...I push with 30+ marines, I don't think the lack of stim will matter. I have beaten a couple guys who made VRs, but none of them were massing them. The closest I've come to losing was to a guy who made stalkers/immortal/phoenix/VR. | ||
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spbelky
United States623 Posts
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Phantom09
United States73 Posts
 Hey Olorin, I'M a high diamond Terran (rank #2 at the moment). I Actually tend to use a similar strategy, although I like doing my thor/banshee/Marine Push off of 2 base. I have to say, that's a pretty scary push you have going there. First off, I have to say, if you scout this as protoss, which you should be able to do, there are several things you can do. 1st option : early pressure. Early pressure against this sort of teching really can put the terran on his back foot. Since the terran is going 1/1/1, he isn't going to have a whole lot of units. - 4 gates have a pretty decent chance of busting this, especially if the terran doesn't have a bunker or two at the front. - A quick robo going into a 2 or 3gate + immortal push also does very well, as the marine count will be low off of 1 rax in the beginning, and the immortal can chew through the bunkers (and thors, if they are out early enough for the push.... which is unlikely if you go 1/1/1). -Another option is 2 or 3 gate stargate, with 2 void rays + gateway units to do an early push. If the terran doesn't wall off while teching like this, your zealots can get in and do loads of damage, focusing down the marines while void rays mop everything else up. If he has walled, your voids can charge on his wall and absolutely own. To survive this, a Terran has to see the pressure coming, build bunkers, and pull SCVs off the line. All this slows down and/or weakens the 11 min push, if it doesn't outright win you the game. 2nd option: econ. -If you see a terran teching like this, he is going to be unable to put any serious early pressure on you. You can probably safely 1 or 2 gate expand, and have your natural up by the 5 or 6 minute mark easy. Having a significant econ lead for that long (~5 min) should allow you to have enough forces to survive the push. As for composition - I would suggest either chargelots/stalkers/immortals or chargelot/stalker/colossi. If you get the immortals, focus down the thors then clean up the marines/banshees with the rest of your army. If you get the colossi, focus down the marines first. Because of the raven/pdd, you could cut some stalkers and add in some void rays, which do very well against thor/banshee, but you'd have to micro them properly against the marines. Whatever composition you choose, your econ lead + defenders advantage should allow you to defend successfully. Things NOT to do: Go pure gateway. Thors/marine/banshees have one thing in common - high dps. They will walk through much larger gateway armies. The key to this composition is the synergy between the units. Marines do very well against all air, and provide good ground dps - and are especially good at taking out immortals, which could counter thors. Thors do massive ground dps and have a large amount of health, helping the marines to survive, especially against things such as colossi. Banshees rounds it all out, having a very high anti-ground dps, doing well against colossi and immortal - and are protected in the air by the marines, and even the thors, who do very well against phoenixes. What I've found counters this build best is some composition that focuses down ONE of these units very well, then is able to mop up the other two afterwards. Usually, the best unit (imo) to focus down is the thor. If you kill the thors, zealots/stalkers can clean up the marines/banshees without too much trouble, especially if you are reinforcing throughout the battle. There are some other things the terran can do when he is teching like this, like cloaked banshee harass, but that was not the point of this thread, and therefore I will not address those. These aren't easy solutions - that 11 minute push looks pretty devastating. However, if you exploit its weaknesses, you should be able to handle it. TL;DR Either early pressure or FE macro builds are the best against tech based, 1base allins. | ||
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OlorinPA
28 Posts
My whole point to this is that 1 base play seems so strong compared to how hard it is to hold off with economic builds. Like, I'm sure there is a way to beat this build as protoss (4 gate certainly has a chance, but it preempts the push), but to do it economically? I'm not sure... | ||
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Jumbled
1543 Posts
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OlorinPA
28 Posts
I would suggest the last one as well. Typical FE and he scouts exactly what I was going for. Goes with what I think most protoss think the "counter" would be at that stage in the game. I think he was Masters level as well. | ||
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Jumbled
1543 Posts
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Phantom09
United States73 Posts
On March 03 2011 15:41 OlorinPA wrote: Hey, phantom. You are absolutely right that this build has the same difficulty holding off early aggression by the protoss (4 gate, etc) as a 1/1/1 build does. However, I disagree that the economic build is necessarily the way to go. B/c the protoss' I tend to crush easiest are the ones who FE. I generally scan a couple minutes before the push and if I see an expo I know he is going to die. You should check out the replays to see what I mean. My whole point to this is that 1 base play seems so strong compared to how hard it is to hold off with economic builds. Like, I'm sure there is a way to beat this build as protoss (4 gate certainly has a chance, but it preempts the push), but to do it economically? I'm not sure... Olorin, You have a good point. I agree that this sort of push is harder to hold off if you expo. But if you expand early enough, it should put you in a better position overall if you manage to hold this push off. It's just harder to macro correctly and get the correct composition then it is to 4gate. I just watched your last game against scythe, who did a 3 gate expand. I honestly think he could have held it, had he not made these mistakes. 1) His macro slipped. He had enough money for an extra 2 immortals or so, which would have really helped. 2) He built phoenixes. Phoenixes are pretty good at killing banshees.... but void rays are better, especially since void rays do well against thors AND void rays aren't affected by the PDD. If he had had void rays instead of phoenixes, he would have done better. 3) Target fired your thors. I noticed that a lot of the time, he 1a'ed and therefore his immortal was firing on your marines. Big waste of DPS. 4) Not enough immortals. This relates to #1. If he had at 2 or 3 more immortals, and target fired your thors.... he would have done so much better. 5) He probably could have safely gone for a 2gate expo against your build. Haven't tested this or anything, but that's just what I feel from watching the replay. TL;DR It is possible to hold off your push with an economic build - it is just harder, as it requires good micro, macro, and army composition. But then again, isn't good micro, macro, and army composition what any good player wants?  | ||
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matrius
100 Posts
The only time I lost is when I messed up my micro and a thor or two attacked a building instead of their army  As well, he had colossi which I find tougher. You have to keep your marines behind the thors or they get toasted.I think colossi, zealots, void ray/phoenix might give this trouble, but who does that? Everyone seems to go for stalkers anyway. PDD is good for them Thanks again! PS. Held off 4 gateway push too - I had built 2 bunkers because I notice there are a few extra minerals and he attacked with the pylon close by to warp in, but was able to hold the front line, and then my thor popped. Was close though, I was a bit slow with my scvs...I'm wondering if the order was changed to get Thor building first, then SP, raven, banshee just to give you a bit more army earlier - Thors much better at helping hold off the rush than a banshee... | ||
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BONE
United States176 Posts
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kusu
Sweden440 Posts
If he goes phoenix you transition into BCs. Really strong build ! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172190 | ||
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NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
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