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[D] TvP Thor/Banshee/Raven/Marine push - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
March 04 2011 15:12 GMT
#21
I've been facing this strat on ladder recently, how can Terran get so much off one base ? Even when I 1gate FE and shut down banshee harass, and by the end of the game I had 8k+ more resources than him ,this push is really hard to hold off

Do you have any replays where you lose doing this?
ROOTdrewbie
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada1392 Posts
March 04 2011 15:13 GMT
#22
sounds cool i will try it ~_~
www.root-gaming.com
Krikan
Profile Joined October 2010
Norway520 Posts
March 04 2011 15:27 GMT
#23
Hmm, considering how late this push is, and assuming your observer scout both thors and banshees I would imagine cannons would be the right response, together with either immortals or colossus, or the phoenix response could work too I guess. From what experience I have from doing similar one base pushes, cannons are amazingly annoying to deal with. 3 or 4 cannons can quickly grab a good 10 marines or more during a fight (or just do some general nice damage to the thors or w/e). This together with some decent forcefields and guardian shields together with immortal/colossi or phoenix should have a decent chance at holding.

This is mostly theory crafting I guess as I'm mostly on the Terran side of things, but in theory atleast it doesn't sound too bad. Like someone said earlier: the toss had mined 8k+ more resources, you should be willing to spend 500 ish on that for cannons (the forge can just upgrade +1 anyways which is always good) to give yourself a better fighting chance.
Naniwa on making the MLG finals: Uh, it's ok.
ROOTdrewbie
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada1392 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-04 15:36:11
March 04 2011 15:32 GMT
#24
ok i have a couple questions about this strat.

why do you get a banshee out before a raven? i think that it would good vs dts and also if a protoss gets an observer in your base fast then they could scout the armory. I think that you had enough gas in the games that you could have gotten the raven first, also you had like 190 energy at the timing of your push so you couldnt quite throw down 2 pdds

do you cut scvs on purpose ? you seem to stop at about 6 scvs on gas + 16 scvs on minerals for minimum saturation.

it seems super allin since you have like half your opponent's scvs when you are pushing, so why dont you pull like 10~ scvs to autorepair during the fight? I don't see how you could win with a follow up push of 2 banshee 2 thor + marines if this fails since your opponent will have such a higher economy

also i liked how you don't scout at all or micro in the fights really and still win easy LOL ;D nice strat


im not sure but i think that a 1 base build by the protoss could stop it, if they just camped their ramp thors/marines do pretty badly going up a ramp because they are slow and dont have the greatest range. but they would only do this if they know what you are doing and just make like 36 probes but camp out on their ramp
www.root-gaming.com
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-04 16:13:16
March 04 2011 16:06 GMT
#25
This is mostly theory crafting I guess as I'm mostly on the Terran side of things, but in theory atleast it doesn't sound too bad. Like someone said earlier: the toss had mined 8k+ more resources, you should be willing to spend 500 ish on that for cannons (the forge can just upgrade +1 anyways which is always good) to give yourself a better fighting chance.


Banshees weren't my problem, I managed to shoo them away with only losing 7~ Probes, which I think is an OK loss considering I 1gate FE'd.

I didn't have Phoenix though, when I saw the Thors they were the last thing I wanted to make, I'm not sure what I did wrong, my entire army just vanishes, I had charge lot/ Voidray/ Immortal/Stalker/Sentry

I'm not sure what the proper response is..., maybe I teched too much? But I had a 8k lead..., anyone have ANY replays of them beating this? or of them losing(as the Terran ofc)?


im not sure but i think that a 1 base build by the protoss could stop it, if they just camped their ramp thors/marines do pretty badly going up a ramp because they are slow and dont have the greatest range. but they would only do this if they know what you are doing and just make like 36 probes but camp out on their ramp

But what happens if you just camp the ramp at that point and expand? How am I going to bust down that ramp with Thor/Banshee/Raven situated perfectly waiting for you to run your army into the meat grinder, at that point wouldn't just a siege tank switch make it impossible for Protoss to leave?

Fuck I hate Terran 1 base so much
matrius
Profile Joined February 2011
100 Posts
March 04 2011 16:09 GMT
#26
Oh, btw, the first banshee can be used to harass - I killed 6 probes before he could get the probes away and bring over his stalkers! You probably want to put an scv scout somewhere to make sure you don't harass at the same time as you are being attacked, since you will have a smaller army at that point.
ROOTdrewbie
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada1392 Posts
March 04 2011 16:13 GMT
#27
yea the OP didn't harass or scout at all lol, I think it would be best to make the raven before the banshee and deny any scouting and just camp out in your base.

Dommk if the terran does that then he will have 25 scvs vs 36ish for P and even though I guess he could switch to tanks it would be really slow though, the protoss could have like 2-3 colossus out when the push comes and just micro them from up his ramp
www.root-gaming.com
matrius
Profile Joined February 2011
100 Posts
March 04 2011 16:21 GMT
#28
On March 05 2011 01:06 Dommk wrote:
Show nested quote +
Banshees weren't my problem, I managed to shoo them away with only losing 7~ Probes, which I think is an OK loss considering I 1gate FE'd.

I didn't have Phoenix though, when I saw the Thors they were the last thing I wanted to make, I'm not sure what I did wrong, my entire army just vanishes, I had charge lot/ Voidray/ Immortal/Stalker/Sentry

I'm not sure what the proper response is..., maybe I teched too much? But I had a 8k lead..., anyone have ANY replays of them beating this?


I think if you have that much extra resources, you just cannon up - 5 cannons at each base should do it, and then you will out macro him. Can you post your replay?

As well, if you have an observer and you see marine/thor/banshee, just make chargelots/colossi/void ray which should counter everything (theorycraft here). Stalkers kinda sux vs this. Easiest way to test the unit comps is to use the unit tester vs similar valued army.
http://www.sc2mapster.com/maps/unit-tester/

Show nested quote +

im not sure but i think that a 1 base build by the protoss could stop it, if they just camped their ramp thors/marines do pretty badly going up a ramp because they are slow and dont have the greatest range. but they would only do this if they know what you are doing and just make like 36 probes but camp out on their ramp

But what happens if you just camp the ramp at that point and expand? How am I going to bust down that ramp with Thor/Banshee/Raven situated perfectly waiting for you to run your army into the meat grinder, at that point wouldn't just a siege tank switch make it impossible for Protoss to leave?

This is a bad idea (staying up your ramp), the terran will bunker up and you will be totally contained, and if you move out, you will funnel into a deathball. A forward pylon (with a cannon if you want some extra defense) will be better.
matrius
Profile Joined February 2011
100 Posts
March 04 2011 16:22 GMT
#29
PS. I always make 36 scvs and then send some along when I push with this strat
Synystyr
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1446 Posts
March 04 2011 16:46 GMT
#30
I play this style very heavily in TvP and have yielded amazing results...I honestly believe that the only way to play against Protoss lategame is with air. As someone posted earlier, I have a thread detailing a more macro focused version of this build.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172190

I like fast expanding first and then macroing. It's not so all in, and your and push only comes a little later, but it's so much more powerful AND you can take a third and transition easily out of it into BCs.

What I think you could do differently with this style is:

Thor + Raven before Banshee.
Continue constant SCV production.

Thor + Raven first will give you a lot more power to stop 1 base pushes and to deny scouting. If done perfectly, your opponent will make Immortals in response to your Thor, which is exactly what you want. Also, you can bank energy on your raven for 2 PDDs later when you engage.

Don't cut SCVs. You need something to fall back on in case your push gets stomped. You'll want to expand as you attack and with constant SCV production, you'll at least be able to saturate your nat.

For those wondering how to stop it..

Since this is a 1 base push, your best bet is to try and get as many Phoenix + Zealots out as fast as you can, as this is the ideal composition to stop it. Stalkers just don't trade very well at all with this army. Your AA must be Phoenix. Cannons will also be a huge help. YOU WANT TO DEFEND. Defenders advantage is what you really need here.

Thor/Banshee/Raven/Marine is such a powerful mid game composition...you need to scout perfectly and get the right balance of units out to stop it, otherwise you lose in an extremely 1 sided fashion...GL
Sky Terran TvP V2.0: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355839
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-04 17:23:46
March 04 2011 17:06 GMT
#31
On March 05 2011 01:13 drewbie.root wrote:
yea the OP didn't harass or scout at all lol, I think it would be best to make the raven before the banshee and deny any scouting and just camp out in your base.

Dommk if the terran does that then he will have 25 scvs vs 36ish for P and even though I guess he could switch to tanks it would be really slow though, the protoss could have like 2-3 colossus out when the push comes and just micro them from up his ramp

That isn't going to work.

I just pulled up a game and tried to see how many Colossus I could get by 11mins with 14 and 18gas (skipping first zealot), I built 3 Observers, which I think is reasonable due to observer snipes. I built nothing other than 2gate, robo, support bay and Colossus (w/ Thermal lance). No "defense" of stalkers for early Banshee harass.

By 11mins, I have 451 gas (http://i.imgur.com/Unxjw.jpg that is me trying to hit 38 workers, 2 for scouting/building, as fast as I can, so the minerals won't be that high in a real game), what exactly am I supposed to get with 451 gas to stop Banshees? Even if I skipped a Colossus and an observer, that means I have 726 Gas. If we just assume I need 5 Stalkers for early Banshee defense, that means I only have 476 gas to counter left the rest of the push, Gas is a considerably limiting factor here, I don't see how 2/3 Colossus could stop this push at all...
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
March 04 2011 17:09 GMT
#32
On March 05 2011 01:46 Synystyr wrote:
I play this style very heavily in TvP and have yielded amazing results...I honestly believe that the only way to play against Protoss lategame is with air. As someone posted earlier, I have a thread detailing a more macro focused version of this build.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172190

I like fast expanding first and then macroing. It's not so all in, and your and push only comes a little later, but it's so much more powerful AND you can take a third and transition easily out of it into BCs.

What I think you could do differently with this style is:

Thor + Raven before Banshee.
Continue constant SCV production.

Thor + Raven first will give you a lot more power to stop 1 base pushes and to deny scouting. If done perfectly, your opponent will make Immortals in response to your Thor, which is exactly what you want. Also, you can bank energy on your raven for 2 PDDs later when you engage.

Don't cut SCVs. You need something to fall back on in case your push gets stomped. You'll want to expand as you attack and with constant SCV production, you'll at least be able to saturate your nat.

For those wondering how to stop it..

Since this is a 1 base push, your best bet is to try and get as many Phoenix + Zealots out as fast as you can, as this is the ideal composition to stop it. Stalkers just don't trade very well at all with this army. Your AA must be Phoenix. Cannons will also be a huge help. YOU WANT TO DEFEND. Defenders advantage is what you really need here.

Thor/Banshee/Raven/Marine is such a powerful mid game composition...you need to scout perfectly and get the right balance of units out to stop it, otherwise you lose in an extremely 1 sided fashion...GL


Do you have any replays of you losing whilst doing this (not to early stuff like 4gate)?
BlinkGosu
Profile Joined December 2010
United States46 Posts
March 04 2011 17:16 GMT
#33
Hey guys 3.3k masters toss here, my build for Terran is a 2gate robo expand with contain, after you have safely expanded you make a mothership while continuing to produce immortals and gateway units. When your mothership has 100 energy you can push with your army on maps where the natural and main are close, vortexing half his army or whole army and using forcefueld+ gaurdian shield. If on shattered temple or other similar map you can push with your army then back up lure him out and recall into his base and snipe productionfacilities and you'll be set to win.
lol
OlorinPA
Profile Joined December 2010
28 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-04 19:28:13
March 04 2011 19:20 GMT
#34
On March 05 2011 00:32 drewbie.root wrote:
ok i have a couple questions about this strat.

why do you get a banshee out before a raven? i think that it would good vs dts and also if a protoss gets an observer in your base fast then they could scout the armory. I think that you had enough gas in the games that you could have gotten the raven first, also you had like 190 energy at the timing of your push so you couldnt quite throw down 2 pdds

do you cut scvs on purpose ? you seem to stop at about 6 scvs on gas + 16 scvs on minerals for minimum saturation.

it seems super allin since you have like half your opponent's scvs when you are pushing, so why dont you pull like 10~ scvs to autorepair during the fight? I don't see how you could win with a follow up push of 2 banshee 2 thor + marines if this fails since your opponent will have such a higher economy

also i liked how you don't scout at all or micro in the fights really and still win easy LOL ;D nice strat


im not sure but i think that a 1 base build by the protoss could stop it, if they just camped their ramp thors/marines do pretty badly going up a ramp because they are slow and dont have the greatest range. but they would only do this if they know what you are doing and just make like 36 probes but camp out on their ramp


Wow a response from Drewbie. Anyway, I get the banshee first b/c I initially don't have the gas saved up for a raven (since I start the armory shortly after starting the banshee). Also, I think having the banshee first will be better for holding off any early aggression than getting a raven first. And a DT rush would have to be pretty fast to beat the raven out (I think). I'm and sure some tweaks like this could potentially improve it, certainly.

And it is incredibly all in. Which is not my play style at all. This has just been a giant experiment for me. I would pull the SCVs, except I have not run into a need to yet. I have not lost with the push (I've have lost to a couple 4 gates though, which obviously hit before the push). Anyway...I've been experimenting with this b/c SC2 seems so much harder to play economically than in BW. That is 1 base play in SC2 is sooo strong if you play it right. I started getting frustrated that I would so often lose to some random 10:00 push that seems completely unbeatable if I FE. So I decided to try a similar tactic for myself and this is the result.


On March 05 2011 01:13 drewbie.root wrote:
yea the OP didn't harass or scout at all lol, I think it would be best to make the raven before the banshee and deny any scouting and just camp out in your base.

Dommk if the terran does that then he will have 25 scvs vs 36ish for P and even though I guess he could switch to tanks it would be really slow though, the protoss could have like 2-3 colossus out when the push comes and just micro them from up his ramp


Yeah...again not my usual style of play. My reasoning for lack of scouting is...I simply don't care what the protoss is doing. I'm going to try and smash right in regardless. Obviously, trying to scout for a 4 gate so that you could change it up to better respond isn't a bad idea...but I usually just put a bunker at the front and call it good, lol. I originally WOULD harass with the first banshee, but I was often losing it. And I sort of came to the realization that maybe I don't even need to harass for this to be effective so I stopped doing it and just saved the banshee for the push...the more the better.
OlorinPA
Profile Joined December 2010
28 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-04 19:28:37
March 04 2011 19:26 GMT
#35
Double post.
Barca
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States418 Posts
March 04 2011 20:54 GMT
#36
Hmmm, seems pretty powerful.

@OP: Do you think there is anyway to stop this off a 1 gate FE? Since that build comes out before the Protoss can scout your build? By 11:00 the expo should have paid for itself, I believe.
- I hate threads that end with "Thoughts?" -
OlorinPA
Profile Joined December 2010
28 Posts
March 04 2011 21:00 GMT
#37
On March 05 2011 05:54 Barca wrote:
Hmmm, seems pretty powerful.

@OP: Do you think there is anyway to stop this off a 1 gate FE? Since that build comes out before the Protoss can scout your build? By 11:00 the expo should have paid for itself, I believe.


All, I know is that I have the easiest time beating a "typical" FE. That is FE, then mass gateway units and maybe immortals before transitioning into colossus. If you FE'ed and then rush straight to colossi as fast as possible and if you could have 2 colossi out in time...then yes I think that would hold it. But that is hardly a "typical" FE.
kwan_1984
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada58 Posts
March 07 2011 00:50 GMT
#38
man im loving this strat,,, it works really really well against zerg too. I have been leaving the Raven out against zerg, is that a good or bad idea? i leve it out so i can get an extra banshee for the push.
I am in platinum, so at 11 minutes, typically all i see is maybe 4 mutas, mostly lings, blings or roaches.

Would the raven even be that much more of a help in a zerg match or would it be smarter to get the extra banshee?
Blamajama
Profile Joined September 2010
156 Posts
March 07 2011 01:56 GMT
#39
So a 4 gate proxy pylon rarely ever breaks this defense? What about maps where they are able to warp inside your base should you not spot the pylon like DQ? What about blink stalkers flooding your base while immortals bust the wall?
kwan_1984
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada58 Posts
March 07 2011 08:11 GMT
#40
how would u tweak this to go against a zerg? or how viable would this strat be against terran? i have actually had more success with this against zerg , since i started trying it today.

I have lost twice, but that is to my screw up in macro. but its a very very solid build especially if the zerg or toss fast expands i find.
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