|
On July 25 2011 13:26 xXPrOmAsTeRzErGXxMLG wrote:
SCAN SCAN SCAN. TERRAN HAS THE SCANNING ABILITY, USE IT. I WOULDNT CONDONE THE FAST 3RD THOUGH. THE ARTOSIS MINDSET OF GETTING MORE AHEAD IN MY OPINION IS MORE GEARED TOWARDS ZERG. IF YOU SHUT DOWN HIS DTS JUST GO IN FOR THE JUGULAR, I HIGHLY DOUBT HE HAS MUCH OF AN ARMY IF HE GOES FAST DTS
PROMASTERZERG OUT!
I feel like even though trestres and I couldn't reach an agreement at least useful discussion was made.... Why all caps sir? and no you tend not to have a huge army if you go fast DTs, the DTs force Terran to react in some way, giving you map control to set up your expo with a (generally) smaller army (depending on if Terran just went heavy rax or if he went some sort of tech opener).
|
|
|
On July 25 2011 13:42 xXPrOmAsTeRzErGXxMLG wrote:Show nested quote +so what happens if he's not 1baseing and actually expands, like you would do in any 'fast expand' build WELL HONESTLY HE SHOULD START PRODUCTION ON A 3RD. IF TOSS IS FAST EXPANDING THEN HE REALLY WONT HAVE MUCH OF AN ARMY. ALSO TERRAN CAN JUST WALL UP AND PLOP DOWN A SEIGE OR 2 AND BE PRETTY SAFE UNTIL THE LATE-MIDGAME PROMASTERZERG OUT!
Stop talking in caps already, it's not funny
|
On July 25 2011 13:42 BrisklyGrape wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2011 13:26 xXPrOmAsTeRzErGXxMLG wrote:
SCAN SCAN SCAN. TERRAN HAS THE SCANNING ABILITY, USE IT. I WOULDNT CONDONE THE FAST 3RD THOUGH. THE ARTOSIS MINDSET OF GETTING MORE AHEAD IN MY OPINION IS MORE GEARED TOWARDS ZERG. IF YOU SHUT DOWN HIS DTS JUST GO IN FOR THE JUGULAR, I HIGHLY DOUBT HE HAS MUCH OF AN ARMY IF HE GOES FAST DTS
PROMASTERZERG OUT! I feel like even though trestres and I couldn't reach an agreement at least useful discussion was made.... Why all caps sir? and no you tend not to have a huge army if you go fast DTs, the DTs force Terran to react in some way, giving you map control to set up your expo with a (generally) smaller army (depending on if Terran just went heavy rax or if he went some sort of tech opener).
don't feed the troll? haha anyways
to put into more solid numbers, assuming your scouting scv sees:
13 gate
15 gas
16 pylon
17 cyber
'no zealot production'
18/19 2nd gas
stalker @cyber 100% - chrono'ed
you then apply pressure with 2rax or whatever opening you chose and see ~5 stalkers, no nexus.
To me that narrows it down to:
1Base blink all in (viable on some maps) - likely in response to terran no gas FE
2 or 3 Gate voidray - in response to terran wall, late or lack of 2nd gas. probably threw down a delayed nexus
or of course, dt FE. I just don't see how you are able to narrow it down to DT and easily eliminate other possibilities which could kill you if you fail to react properly. throwing down blind ebay and turret is not what you want to do vs blink stalker all in. voidray all in also requires a very different reaction.
|
On July 25 2011 12:06 Carthac wrote:
DT expand to me does a slew of various things to the game. It gives them a chance to win outright if the terran is caught without turrets, while it also gives map control by making the terran wait until he has at least 2 scans before he can move out and put any pressure on the protoss. This allows them to tech quickly, spend their chrono boost on probes and upgrades to improve their chances of winning in the end game. I have found if the DT’s are not effective, they are behind but not severely as they can be turned into archons giving them a very strong to fight with against bio. Here are the responses I have thought of on the terran side of things.
I highlighted this part of your post because you are correct. The only way to hard-counter a 3-gate DT expand is to open with cloaked banshees - you can't hard-counter it going 1-rax expand, for example. However, note that you said the protoss is behind - and yes, that is correct. That means, all you really need to do is play normally, but you have an advantage. I don't think there is any need to do anything particularly special.
If you want to hard-counter DTs after going 2-rax, watch Polt vs Huk, GSL Supertournament, ro64 set2 on XNC. Polt follows up his 2-rax poke with 2-starports, getting a raven and some banshees. But note that Huk tried to push his way into Polt's front - if he didn't do so, it may have gone differently.
The danger of putting down that 2-starports reactively is that it's pretty much an all-in. When Polt did his poke, from the unit composition and the way Huk was playing, guessed that DTs were incoming (also probably helped by the fact that Huk uses a lot of DTs in crunch situations). But don't forget, this is Polt and this kind of starsense is not something many people have. If Huk had gone robo or stargate, the game would be quite different.
|
I agree that it could be a blink all in but I didn't realize that build still existed, I thought most Toss were keeping to some sort of 3 gate aggressive expand or some variant of #gates + robo (although i have a few extremely greedy econ cheese builds, HuK 20 food, 1gate double gas FE).
At this point it's about scouting, both the expansion timing and the army composition. If you really aren't sure, you can throw a scan down into his base, at worst you see nothing but at best you see what you need to see.
3 Gate voidray if you produce more than one void ray is actually kind of an allinish build, how often do you run into 1 base blink vs #gate voidray vs dt expand on the ladder/in tournament games? Do you have replays of the 1 base blink play (I can't imagine why you would do this against a gasless expand, as a 3 gate aggressive build is much faster and is not allin and the HuK FE is the "counter" to the gasless 1rax FE)
|
On July 25 2011 14:02 BrisklyGrape wrote:
I agree that it could be a blink all in but I didn't realize that build still existed, I thought most Toss were keeping to some sort of 3 gate aggressive expand or some variant of #gates + robo (although i have a few extremely greedy econ cheese builds, HuK 20 food, 1gate double gas FE).
At this point it's about scouting, both the expansion timing and the army composition. If you really aren't sure, you can throw a scan down into his base, at worst you see nothing but at best you see what you need to see.
3 Gate voidray if you produce more than one void ray is actually kind of an allinish build, how often do you run into 1 base blink vs #gate voidray vs dt expand on the ladder/in tournament games? Do you have replays of the 1 base blink play (I can't imagine why you would do this against a gasless expand, as a 3 gate aggressive build is much faster and is not allin and the HuK FE is the "counter" to the gasless 1rax FE)
Producing more than one void and throwing down a 3rd gate is definitely very all-in, but that's just what you might be up against.
I can't really say how often people do dt expand / voidray / 1base blink in PvT on any server because I don't play Terran x.x As far as streams of ladder games go, minigun did it a few times on typhon just like 2 days ago.
As far as tournaments go, gasless fe is popular on terminus, and i've seen 1base blink a few times in response. 2 I can remember right now would be LiquidTyler tsl3 ro16 game 2, Naniwa tsl3 finals (whatever game was on terminus).
Spoiler: Tyler's all in was unsuccessful, while Naniwa just barely won.
|
On July 25 2011 14:16 tuestresfat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2011 14:02 BrisklyGrape wrote:
I agree that it could be a blink all in but I didn't realize that build still existed, I thought most Toss were keeping to some sort of 3 gate aggressive expand or some variant of #gates + robo (although i have a few extremely greedy econ cheese builds, HuK 20 food, 1gate double gas FE).
At this point it's about scouting, both the expansion timing and the army composition. If you really aren't sure, you can throw a scan down into his base, at worst you see nothing but at best you see what you need to see.
3 Gate voidray if you produce more than one void ray is actually kind of an allinish build, how often do you run into 1 base blink vs #gate voidray vs dt expand on the ladder/in tournament games? Do you have replays of the 1 base blink play (I can't imagine why you would do this against a gasless expand, as a 3 gate aggressive build is much faster and is not allin and the HuK FE is the "counter" to the gasless 1rax FE) Producing more than one void and throwing down a 3rd gate is definitely very all-in, but that's just what you might be up against. I can't really say how often people do dt expand / voidray / 1base blink in PvT on any server because I don't play Terran x.x As far as streams of ladder games go, minigun did it a few times on typhon just like 2 days ago. As far as tournaments go, gasless fe is popular on terminus, and i've seen 1base blink a few times in response. 2 I can remember right now would be LiquidTyler tsl3 ro16 game 2, Naniwa tsl3 finals (whatever game was on terminus). Spoiler: Tyler's all in was unsuccessful, while Naniwa just barely won.
I'll have to look at those games. I guess I come from a hugely jaded view of how to play out games in RTS in general, as I am such a macro oriented player that I allin maybe 5% of my games on the ladder, just because I'm looking to improve my mechanics and such -.-
|
One base stalker build should be able to crush any gasless builds.
Check out Code A,Ro 16 match 4 - NSHoSeo_Tassadar vs SlayerS_Ryung Set 3.
Arrives at 7:30-8 with 10 stalkers. Remember that T is down 750 minerals, and possibly more if blindly countering DTs. If T is rushing fast medivac, then even more doomed with low rax count.
I don't believe gasless, or any sub 7+m expand is safe against all P all ins. It just so happens that these T expansion builds are not tested very often by P's but when they are, they are almost always found wanting against the difficult ones [blink, vr, dt].
|
Really the best way is to just use turrets. Turrets basically give you an auto win against a dt expand since you probably expanded first, and now hes invested in a bunch of tech that isn't going to be very useful. My personal favorite follow up is to get ghosts and exactly 1 raven followed by a push. Normally they won't hold it, and if they do they at least take a bunch of damage. At worst it fails and you just take a third base.
|
On July 25 2011 14:19 BrisklyGrape wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2011 14:16 tuestresfat wrote:On July 25 2011 14:02 BrisklyGrape wrote:
I agree that it could be a blink all in but I didn't realize that build still existed, I thought most Toss were keeping to some sort of 3 gate aggressive expand or some variant of #gates + robo (although i have a few extremely greedy econ cheese builds, HuK 20 food, 1gate double gas FE).
At this point it's about scouting, both the expansion timing and the army composition. If you really aren't sure, you can throw a scan down into his base, at worst you see nothing but at best you see what you need to see.
3 Gate voidray if you produce more than one void ray is actually kind of an allinish build, how often do you run into 1 base blink vs #gate voidray vs dt expand on the ladder/in tournament games? Do you have replays of the 1 base blink play (I can't imagine why you would do this against a gasless expand, as a 3 gate aggressive build is much faster and is not allin and the HuK FE is the "counter" to the gasless 1rax FE) Producing more than one void and throwing down a 3rd gate is definitely very all-in, but that's just what you might be up against. I can't really say how often people do dt expand / voidray / 1base blink in PvT on any server because I don't play Terran x.x As far as streams of ladder games go, minigun did it a few times on typhon just like 2 days ago. As far as tournaments go, gasless fe is popular on terminus, and i've seen 1base blink a few times in response. 2 I can remember right now would be LiquidTyler tsl3 ro16 game 2, Naniwa tsl3 finals (whatever game was on terminus). Spoiler: Tyler's all in was unsuccessful, while Naniwa just barely won. I'll have to look at those games. I guess I come from a hugely jaded view of how to play out games in RTS in general, as I am such a macro oriented player that I allin maybe 5% of my games on the ladder, just because I'm looking to improve my mechanics and such -.-
There's nothing with that, you just have to realize that other people will try to all in you and you have to tailor your macro based builds to be safe from those all ins. And the first thing you have to do is be able to scout the all in, which is what we're discussing in this thread.
btw
On July 25 2011 14:02 BrisklyGrape wrote:
(although i have a few extremely greedy econ cheese builds, HuK 20 food, 1gate double gas FE).
(I can't imagine why you would do this against a gasless expand, as a 3 gate aggressive build is much faster and is not allin and the HuK FE is the "counter" to the gasless 1rax FE)
first of all, I'm pretty sure it's 1gas 20 Nexus? haha I really can't imagine double gas with 19 mining probes.
Second, that build is unviable from what I know. You will die to variations of 2rax and it can be done by reaction, not blindly. Yea true, chances are the non-grandmasters on ladder won't recognize and punish properly, but I just don't like refining builds that I know can be exploited =[
|
It is 1 gas 20 nexus, i was talking about two separate builds: HuK expand, and the 1 gate double gas FE which is pretty popular. I've never been exploited by a 2 rax reaction so I guess I am not at the level that will be exploited but I have not really ever had problems with the build against a true 1rax gasless FE. It keeps you on even terms or slightly ahead against the Terran.
Anyway, back to the original problem of scouting it. I think the main problem is the tipoff for a DT expand is low sentry count. Which goes to your three builds that toss could be doing. You can't be safe against everything, you have to sacrifice something even if you're trying to be "safe." (I don't know about the Terran safest build, but a 2-3gate robo expand from Protoss is the "safest" build but its sacrifice is a later nexus as a result of being safer and being able to scout).
Are Terrans trying to do too many things at once? I've always wondered whether Terrans nowadays are trying to tech/expand/get infrastructure all at once too quickly (I consider addons as infrastructure, then a lot of Terrans seem to add a factory and expo at the same time while pushing with their two rax pressure, that just seems like a lot when Toss gets a couple of gates and expos in the MU).
|
On July 25 2011 14:33 tuestresfat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2011 14:19 BrisklyGrape wrote:On July 25 2011 14:16 tuestresfat wrote:On July 25 2011 14:02 BrisklyGrape wrote:
I agree that it could be a blink all in but I didn't realize that build still existed, I thought most Toss were keeping to some sort of 3 gate aggressive expand or some variant of #gates + robo (although i have a few extremely greedy econ cheese builds, HuK 20 food, 1gate double gas FE).
At this point it's about scouting, both the expansion timing and the army composition. If you really aren't sure, you can throw a scan down into his base, at worst you see nothing but at best you see what you need to see.
3 Gate voidray if you produce more than one void ray is actually kind of an allinish build, how often do you run into 1 base blink vs #gate voidray vs dt expand on the ladder/in tournament games? Do you have replays of the 1 base blink play (I can't imagine why you would do this against a gasless expand, as a 3 gate aggressive build is much faster and is not allin and the HuK FE is the "counter" to the gasless 1rax FE) Producing more than one void and throwing down a 3rd gate is definitely very all-in, but that's just what you might be up against. I can't really say how often people do dt expand / voidray / 1base blink in PvT on any server because I don't play Terran x.x As far as streams of ladder games go, minigun did it a few times on typhon just like 2 days ago. As far as tournaments go, gasless fe is popular on terminus, and i've seen 1base blink a few times in response. 2 I can remember right now would be LiquidTyler tsl3 ro16 game 2, Naniwa tsl3 finals (whatever game was on terminus). Spoiler: Tyler's all in was unsuccessful, while Naniwa just barely won. I'll have to look at those games. I guess I come from a hugely jaded view of how to play out games in RTS in general, as I am such a macro oriented player that I allin maybe 5% of my games on the ladder, just because I'm looking to improve my mechanics and such -.- There's nothing with that, you just have to realize that other people will try to all in you and you have to tailor your macro based builds to be safe from those all ins. And the first thing you have to do is be able to scout the all in, which is what we're discussing in this thread. btw Show nested quote +On July 25 2011 14:02 BrisklyGrape wrote:
(although i have a few extremely greedy econ cheese builds, HuK 20 food, 1gate double gas FE).
(I can't imagine why you would do this against a gasless expand, as a 3 gate aggressive build is much faster and is not allin and the HuK FE is the "counter" to the gasless 1rax FE) first of all, I'm pretty sure it's 1gas 20 Nexus? haha I really can't imagine double gas with 19 mining probes. Second, that build is unviable from what I know. You will die to variations of 2rax and it can be done by reaction, not blindly. Yea true, chances are the non-grandmasters on ladder won't recognize and punish properly, but I just don't like refining builds that I know can be exploited =[
Whattttt?? Did you see Huk in GSTL, he held a 3 rax w/ 1 gate FE, not sure if it was that variation, but I think it was. I'm sure 2 rax is no problem if Huk can stop 3 rax all-in.
|
On July 25 2011 15:05 SoKHo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2011 14:33 tuestresfat wrote:On July 25 2011 14:19 BrisklyGrape wrote:On July 25 2011 14:16 tuestresfat wrote:On July 25 2011 14:02 BrisklyGrape wrote:
I agree that it could be a blink all in but I didn't realize that build still existed, I thought most Toss were keeping to some sort of 3 gate aggressive expand or some variant of #gates + robo (although i have a few extremely greedy econ cheese builds, HuK 20 food, 1gate double gas FE).
At this point it's about scouting, both the expansion timing and the army composition. If you really aren't sure, you can throw a scan down into his base, at worst you see nothing but at best you see what you need to see.
3 Gate voidray if you produce more than one void ray is actually kind of an allinish build, how often do you run into 1 base blink vs #gate voidray vs dt expand on the ladder/in tournament games? Do you have replays of the 1 base blink play (I can't imagine why you would do this against a gasless expand, as a 3 gate aggressive build is much faster and is not allin and the HuK FE is the "counter" to the gasless 1rax FE) Producing more than one void and throwing down a 3rd gate is definitely very all-in, but that's just what you might be up against. I can't really say how often people do dt expand / voidray / 1base blink in PvT on any server because I don't play Terran x.x As far as streams of ladder games go, minigun did it a few times on typhon just like 2 days ago. As far as tournaments go, gasless fe is popular on terminus, and i've seen 1base blink a few times in response. 2 I can remember right now would be LiquidTyler tsl3 ro16 game 2, Naniwa tsl3 finals (whatever game was on terminus). Spoiler: Tyler's all in was unsuccessful, while Naniwa just barely won. I'll have to look at those games. I guess I come from a hugely jaded view of how to play out games in RTS in general, as I am such a macro oriented player that I allin maybe 5% of my games on the ladder, just because I'm looking to improve my mechanics and such -.- There's nothing with that, you just have to realize that other people will try to all in you and you have to tailor your macro based builds to be safe from those all ins. And the first thing you have to do is be able to scout the all in, which is what we're discussing in this thread. btw On July 25 2011 14:02 BrisklyGrape wrote:
(although i have a few extremely greedy econ cheese builds, HuK 20 food, 1gate double gas FE).
(I can't imagine why you would do this against a gasless expand, as a 3 gate aggressive build is much faster and is not allin and the HuK FE is the "counter" to the gasless 1rax FE) first of all, I'm pretty sure it's 1gas 20 Nexus? haha I really can't imagine double gas with 19 mining probes. Second, that build is unviable from what I know. You will die to variations of 2rax and it can be done by reaction, not blindly. Yea true, chances are the non-grandmasters on ladder won't recognize and punish properly, but I just don't like refining builds that I know can be exploited =[ Whattttt?? Did you see Huk in GSTL, he held a 3 rax w/ 1 gate FE, not sure if it was that variation, but I think it was. I'm sure 2 rax is no problem if Huk can stop 3 rax all-in.
Yes I saw that game, he used a variant, a much safer one. And don't assume 3rax is more difficult to hold than 2rax... the timings are very different.
|
I see some okay responses, but I was more looking for what people think is the optimal follow-up, not how I should just kill him after I shut down his DT tech.
I believe the pushing with 2 rax and scvs, then building turrets at his front is definitely a cute contain idea :p. I liked the idea of playing it safe and turret pushing out, saving scans, then moving out when I had a few medivacs. The 2 starport build was interesting as well, but seemed pretty risky
|
On July 25 2011 15:21 Carthac wrote:
I see some okay responses, but I was more looking for what people think is the optimal follow-up, not how I should just kill him after I shut down his DT tech.
I believe the pushing with 2 rax and scvs, then building turrets at his front is definitely a cute contain idea :p. I liked the idea of playing it safe and turret pushing out, saving scans, then moving out when I had a few medivacs. The 2 starport build was interesting as well, but seemed pretty risky
haha sorry, we went on a tangent about scouting and didn't even discuss follow ups in the least. that would be my bad
|
On July 25 2011 15:21 Carthac wrote:
I see some okay responses, but I was more looking for what people think is the optimal follow-up, not how I should just kill him after I shut down his DT tech.
I believe the pushing with 2 rax and scvs, then building turrets at his front is definitely a cute contain idea :p. I liked the idea of playing it safe and turret pushing out, saving scans, then moving out when I had a few medivacs. The 2 starport build was interesting as well, but seemed pretty risky
I feel that the optimal follow up is to play normally but you have an advantage (the size of which is how effectively you've dealt with the harass). I don't believe in trying to do any contain because those things rally go well.
|
a lot of very, very poor responses here. 3 gate dt expand is a very strong build and there isn't one 'correct' response. it is purely reactionary, but no just going cloaked banshee or 'go fucking kill him' isn't the answer. i'm not sure it really needs to be explained why these are not the answer. your reaction needs to be based entirely on what your opponents follow up, something which becomes infinitely harder because dts deny map presence so effectively. turtling into a faster in base 3rd and a raven before medivacs is usually my response but this depends on protoss's response which you have to gauge mainly through scans.
|
I havent seen any recent TvP's from Korea, but last I saw they basically all get engi bays before 6 mins.
Usually with such a fast bay i can blindly put down turrets when im suspicious.
And from my experience, once you hold early game DT's you've won the game.
Edit: I would like to mention that I actually have a harder time dealing with DT's in the lategame, but thats because I refuse to make planetaries probably.
|
On July 25 2011 18:29 rmAmnesiac wrote:
a lot of very, very poor responses here. 3 gate dt expand is a very strong build and there isn't one 'correct' response. it is purely reactionary, but no just going cloaked banshee or 'go fucking kill him' isn't the answer. i'm not sure it really needs to be explained why these are not the answer. your reaction needs to be based entirely on what your opponents follow up, something which becomes infinitely harder because dts deny map presence so effectively. turtling into a faster in base 3rd and a raven before medivacs is usually my response but this depends on protoss's response which you have to gauge mainly through scans.
Actually you can just go freakin kill him depending on your own build^^
But my standard respons to a dt opening (low chrono, early 2nd gas, low but existing sentry count pre-6 minutes) depends on my own opening.
With a 2rax i transition to starport->raven-> double medvac -> push & expand
With a 1rax fe I grab a engi before 2nd gas, turret at choke, ghost stim shield push (with a few scans saved up)
Both pushes hit before follow up tech kicks in for protoss (unless it's a gateway followup) and give you a nice opportunity to do damage & scouting.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
