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Norway839 Posts
Build order
13 Hatchery
15 Pool
17 Overlord
03:14 - Extractor. Should you use a drone to scout early on, delay this gas timing appropriately.
16/18 drone
17/26 drone
18/26 drone (in expansion)
If 2rax bunker pressure is spotted, cancel the extractor, cancel this build and defend. If not, proceed:
19/26 pool finished. 19/26 Queen in natural expansion. 21/26 Roach Warren.
20/28 Gas finished - move 3 drones on gas smoothly.
20/28 drone in main
21/28 queen main
23/28 overlord in main
-- Wait --
23/36 creep tumor in expo
23/36 3 roaches in expo, 1 in main.
31/36 creep tumor in main
31/36 overlord
What does this build leave me with?
- 2 bases and a good economy.
- 4 roaches at your disposal. You can be offensive with all four, or go for a more safe 3-1 to stop runby hellions from killing the queen blocking the ramp to your main base. 3 roaches is also the magic number you need to one-shot SCVs and marines.
- 2 queens, meaning 2x tumors or 1 tumor/1 inject very early.
- 1gas, allowing lair to start as early as 5:40 if you desire. You can also go for zergling speed, melee or carapace upgrades after the roaches go off on their mission. You can also take drones off gas and transition into Ice Fisher while you use the roaches to kill off rocks, should they be unable to do damage.
![[image loading]](http://www.labocaprods.com/mambomanga/beginners_files/image006.jpg) The terran's expression as he encounters your roach force AND an expansion
What does this not work against?
- 2rax
- Medium computer
- 7rax all-in
- 1 Bunker
- Marauders
Why is it worth it then?
It is very powerful when not scouted. Terrans need bunkers to be safe. If not scouted, this build exploits that. It's aggressive. Roaches are powerful on the offense against hellions, marines and SCVs. It's defensive: This build keeps you safe against hellions by damaging them halfway and having the opportunity to create more roaches for further protection.
You do not need to wait for zergling speed to finish. Any terran can keep on mass producing hellions should he scout your mass lings: from there, it's your game to lose. With this build, you set the score even against reactor hellions instead of having to be on the defensive. As your bases become saturated, you will reap the benefits of double larva injects alongside the already-placed creep tumors.
It's flexible. If early pressure in form of 2rax scv arrives, you will be able to spot it in time and transition away from this build.
You get a good starting point against 1/1/1 and can softcontain your opponent until he can break out, should you be unable to do damage. When he breaks out of the soft contain, you will already be raining creep down over his natural with your Lair-enhanced overlord, effectively delaying his already delayed orbital move. You can pull your roaches back home and defend against elevator drops or clear rocks.
Terran builds that are weak against this opener
- Reaper Expand
- Double/Triple reaper
- 1rax expand
- Delayed 2rax
- Reactor Hellions
- 1-1-1 without proper scouting
- 1 hellion 5 marine pushes
When should I try this?
This build is good on 4-player maps where the terran is unlikely to apply 2rax/bunker pressure and is likely to go for mobility heavy builds such as reactor hellions. Strong maps:
- Typhon Peaks
- Tal'darim Altar
- Backwater Gulch
- iCCup Testbug
- iCCup Neo Enigma
Enjoy, if you find this useful please write down your favorite transition from 31 supply and out!
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14 hatch 15 pool is better, 13 hatch and 14 hatch go down at the same time any way..
I'll try it, thing I miss about no gas fe'ing or late gasing atleast is the lack of aggression.
Zerglings are to larva inefficient to make, roaches arent though, as well as the 2 queens you can send with them.
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Do you have any more replays to check out? Seems interesting.
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Not going to comment on 13 hatch...
The build itself is solid. Extemely similar to what Sheth has been doing for ages. LZGamer's Zerg also plays a very similar style to this.
Try it out. Its a great answer to any 1 gas Terran build.
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Thank you MrBitter, I was on the fence reading so far. And obviously thank you Snute for posting the thread 
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Just a question: when do you send a drone to scout with this build?
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Norway839 Posts
Generally you don't, most of the time the SCV scout tells the timing that you are looking for together with the scouting of the first overlord. If the process of elimination and timing doesn't work out, you can maybe send a drone scout around the 4:15 mark? It varies with the map of course, but you need to know where he is approx. 5:30.
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I'm surprised that reaper expand is weak to that opening since the terran can get a marauder out right away if needed. This seems like a nice answer to gas first yes?
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On July 19 2011 02:22 ReachTheSky wrote:
I'm surprised that reaper expand is weak to that opening since the terran can get a marauder out right away if needed. This seems like a nice answer to gas first yes?
I'd have to look at the timings but generally you don't have that much money when reaper expanding. Marauders are quite expensive but it could work out fine.
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Norway839 Posts
On July 19 2011 02:22 ReachTheSky wrote:
I'm surprised that reaper expand is weak to that opening since the terran can get a marauder out right away if needed. This seems like a nice answer to gas first yes?
I'm not sure. I feel it's strong against reaper expand because of the double queens and pressure power. Many terrans use their scouting scv for offensive bunkers right away instead of scouting the zerg main, so most of the time they don't really know what's up.
Even if the terran gets 1 marauder out, it should be slightly delayed because of the CC and it will be no match for 4 roaches if he doesn't add a bunker as well. But I don't know the timings that well yet. Either way, if the terran overconfidently builds his CC outside of his base, it's a very easy task to snipe the SCV and force even more marauders from the terran. It's a catastrophy for him if he doesn't see it coming.
It's maybe not the best build against reaper expand if it's scouted, but it keeps you safe and allows a small amount of pressure to be placed, and in addition you are quite safe against multireaper since you have 2 queens already.
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I use a hatch-first roach build in ZvT almost every game that I scout terran going 1 gas. However I do what Sheth does and try to hide it as a normal hatch-first build until the scouting scv is dead or runs back to base.
Use 14h14p or 15h15p instead of 13 hatch. 13 hatch will leave you idling at 3 larvae for a bit.
Also I don't see any zerglings in the build, which means you can't stop a SCV from hanging around your base and seeing you start a roach warren. As soon as terran sees a roach warren that early he will have a bunker + marauders at his ramp when your roaches arrive and they won't do any damage at all.
This build works best when the scouting scv is stopped. Therefore I suggest you add at least 1 pair of zerglings into the build. Here's what I do:
scout on 13 (earlier on 4 player maps) - If you see 2 rax,
do your normal 2 rax response instead.
15 hatch
15 pool
15 gas, 3 drones on gas when done
2 drones
16 overlord
@ 100% pool, 1 pair of lings and queen
as soon as scv is chased away or killed, put down roach warren
3 drones and an overlord, once overlord pops you will be at 22/36
@ 100% roach warren, 1-7 roaches (7 puts you at 36/36 supply)
Once you have your roaches, go attack. If everything went perfect you should have all your roaches + 2 lings to break his depot extremely quickly. I recommend at least 5 roaches, and if you are able to deny his scouting scv from seeing your roach warren or roaches, I would go for 7. 7 roaches + 2 lings will destroy a depot before pulled scvs can arrive. And if he sees roaches mid-map and starts a bunker, he will only be able to make a round of hellions and 1-2 marines. 7 roaches will do serious damage to that.
If his hellions try to go around your roaches, put your queen on the ramp to block while your roaches continue.
From here on you can change depending on what you see. The good thing about roaches is that they will force terran to show his tech:
-banshees: try to break the ramp. While you're attacking, take drones off of gas, make 2 queens and evo chamber ASAP. When evo chamber is done put 1 spore in mineral line at both bases. If he uses his banshees at his base to kill your roaches, you'll have plenty of time to get these up before the banshees hit your base.
-more hellions: keep drones on gas, keep making roaches (most terrans won't do this).
-tanks: If you see tanks at this point it means he is going 1 base tank push. Retreat your roaches, keep drones on gas, make ling speed @ 100 gas, put the rest of your gas into roaches and make lings with remaining minerals.
-marauders: retreat your roaches, keep drones on gas for another 100 gas to get ling speed, then take them off. Mass ling and drones, get at least 1 spine crawler at nat, get a 3rd queen.
If the scouting scv manages to see your roach warren, you can either cancel the roach warren, or you can only make 1-3 roaches for hellion defense then go back to droning.
Edit: also in general I don't recommend playing defensive with this opening, there are very few maps where 3-4 roaches are the best hellion defense. In almost all maps it's better to evo chamber + spine + queen sim city, this lets you use your gas on upgrades and/or lair. Lastly, it is of course much more larvae efficient (spines/evo chamber use 1 larvae, queens use 0 larvae), which lets you drone up hard.
Edit2: upon closer inspection Sheth does almost this exact build. Get gas a couple of supply earlier, make 1-2 pairs of lings when pool is done, don't get 2nd queen and you'll easily be able to make 5-7 roaches when the roach warren finishes while denying scouting
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Even if you don't do any damage, this build seems pretty useful for marching up the ramp, forcing the terran to show his tech, and then retreating if you see something you can't take.
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Isn't this the perfect opening if you're going LosirA style?
Sheth's version does seem more optimized though.
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Norway839 Posts
Can you post the Sheth version by chance?
I'd like to run side-by-side tests to figure out what's optimal :D
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what do people find so repugnant about a 13 hatch? just wondering..
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On July 19 2011 05:06 KimJongChill wrote:
what do people find so repugnant about a 13 hatch? just wondering..
In the early game, Zerg has a very limited amount of larva to work with. A hatchery will produce one larva every 12 seconds, but it will stop producing any time it has 3 idle larva. (Queen inject not included)
So any build that doesn't make efficient use of your early game larva is usually considered kinda bad...
13 hatch will have you cut drones for quite some time, and you will be sitting on 3 idle larva long enough to have wasted 2-3 units worth of larva.
Might not seem like much, but consider ZvZ.
If your opponent's first 2 lings kill 2-3 drones, how behind do you feel?
Answer should be very.
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Norway839 Posts
I updated the main post with a replay against Reaper/Multireaper Expand into bio, I think it's very powerful!
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had to test this.
if you don't drone scout, micro your workers early game, send out drone on correct time etc etc, you avoid being idle on 3 larvae going 13 hatch by a few seconds.
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On July 19 2011 06:40 nunez wrote:
had to test this.
if you don't drone scout, micro your workers early game, send out drone on correct time etc etc, you avoid being idle on 3 larvae going 13 hatch by a few seconds.
If you don't drone scout you don't see the 2 rax, which is a build order win... Not to mention the countless other things you miss.
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a very safe opening but it's a risk as 50/50 players are going 2 rax or reactored hellion. As a safe guard, I've simply been going for pool first builds, I usually do something like this...
14 gas
14 pool
16 queen
19 hatch
From here, I either get a 2nd queen IF I spotted that the terran is opening with no gas or going 2 rax. IF I see he gets a geyser, instead of the 2nd queen I get a roach warren (21-22 supply) and I keep 2 guys on gas geyser instead of just 1 after getting speed upgrade for my zerglings.
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On July 19 2011 07:01 emc wrote:
a very safe opening but it's a risk as 50/50 players are going 2 rax or reactored hellion. As a safe guard, I've simply been going for pool first builds, I usually do something like this...
14 gas
14 pool
16 queen
19 hatch
From here, I either get a 2nd queen IF I spotted that the terran is opening with no gas or going 2 rax. IF I see he gets a geyser, instead of the 2nd queen I get a roach warren (21-22 supply) and I keep 2 guys on gas geyser instead of just 1 after getting speed upgrade for my zerglings.
it's not risky at all. The build doesn't even start until after the spawning pool finishes.
If you scout 2 rax, then don't make roach warren when the pool finishes. Simple.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Does this build works vs Protoss?
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On July 19 2011 06:55 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 06:40 nunez wrote:
had to test this.
if you don't drone scout, micro your workers early game, send out drone on correct time etc etc, you avoid being idle on 3 larvae going 13 hatch by a few seconds. If you don't drone scout you don't see the 2 rax, which is a build order win... Not to mention the countless other things you miss.
You can often times tell whether a terran is going 2 rax or not by the information you get from a overlord scout or the timing of a potential scouting SCV.
But yeah, I guess its a reason for why 13 hatch isn't standard. A 14 or 15 hatch wouldn't change the roach timings much as far as I can see, so with some very minor alterations this build should be easily executable with a 14 or 15 hatch.
Else than this, this build is really viable and I'm defintely going to play around with this. This closes out most hellion tech paths as well as giving you good aggressive options (which really isn't too usual in zvt). You have to be cautions of banshee transitions though, as I would guess a lot of terrans seeing their hellions plans failing to roaches would immediatly go banshees to do some damage.
Oh and watch this guy's stream. He's awesome.
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I 13 hatch every game and I'm grandmaster. It's good and your larva is only idle at 3 for a couple of seconds. It is equivalent to less than half a larva with pool on 15 regardless of worker micro. It also is the zerg opening with the most minerals by 6 minutes. This is with drone scouting immediately after sending drone down to make a hatch.
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thanks for the post blasius and snute. was looking for some direction zvt and i think i found it. ive been going a little more roach heavy the last few games ive played and its worked out well.
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On July 19 2011 07:38 lkjewq wrote:
I 13 hatch every game and I'm grandmaster. It's good and your larva is only idle at 3 for a couple of seconds. It is equivalent to less than half a larva with pool on 15 regardless of worker micro. It also is the zerg opening with the most minerals by 6 minutes. This is with drone scouting immediately after sending drone down to make a hatch.
is 13 hatch really that good? Wow, maybe I should start to use that myself then. Didn't know that, thanks ^^,
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Will definitely be looking into this build. I've been opening with roaches alot recently to scare off the ever increasing popularity of blue flame hellions. I love playing muta ling baneling against terran, and having 10 or so roaches in the composition makes the clean up easier after killing all of the tanks. Nothing makes me more unhappy than seeing 10 + blue flame hellions rolling with a terran army when I'm zergling heavy.
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Off topic concerning the 13 hatch thing:
+ Show Spoiler +I like 15 hatch 15 gas 16 pool.
The reasoning is: it can defend 2 rax, it gives you 100 gas as well roughly when pool finish so you can start ling speed at once OR roach warren (and afford 4 roaches) while taking drones off gas, and it's awesome econ.
I noticed that it was used a bit in the GSL if the Z didn't expect 2 rax with heavy bunkering, and I find it works quite well.
(one of the key things is to move 10-11 drones to expo right before it finish, so if it's pressure, you have the drones there for defense to kill marines and SCV's).
I just feel that it gives the most options, because you do get that extra early gas with the option of using it for several things depending on what you meet.
Much prefer it to the more common 22-24 gas timings I see a lot of people use, because I find that defending heavy pressure without ling speed, or getting good enough map control and scouting, feels harsh with such late ling speed.
On topic:
I really like this opening, that is, the idea, I have been using something slightly similiar at times in theory (quick fast roaches to pressure or defend) as I find many terrans have insufficient defenses early if they are not going for pressure since they feel wall off is safe.
I'll experiment some with this exact thing and see how it goes.
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On July 19 2011 06:55 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 06:40 nunez wrote:
had to test this.
if you don't drone scout, micro your workers early game, send out drone on correct time etc etc, you avoid being idle on 3 larvae going 13 hatch by a few seconds. If you don't drone scout you don't see the 2 rax, which is a build order win... Not to mention the countless other things you miss.
true dat.
not advocating no drone scout, but since op is indicating he doesn't drone scout i guess 13 hatch isn't actually idling larvae in this case. you will be delaying drones, but your hatch will go up faster. snute hinted at it being a stylistic choice.
you can scout on 11th or 12th drone as well and avoid the idling (i tried with 9 overlord, no extractor trick) by a smidge!
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On July 19 2011 08:05 nunez wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 06:55 MrBitter wrote:On July 19 2011 06:40 nunez wrote:
had to test this.
if you don't drone scout, micro your workers early game, send out drone on correct time etc etc, you avoid being idle on 3 larvae going 13 hatch by a few seconds. If you don't drone scout you don't see the 2 rax, which is a build order win... Not to mention the countless other things you miss. true dat. not advocating no drone scout, but since op is indicating he doesn't drone scout i guess 13 hatch isn't actually idling larvae in this case. you will be delaying drones, but your hatch will go up faster. snute hinted at it being a stylistic choice. you can scout on 11th or 12th drone as well and avoid the idling (i tried with 9 overlord, no extractor trick) by a smidge!
Sending a scouting drone on 13 along with your expansion drone will easily arrive in time to scout a 2 rax and smoothly transition out of this build.
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On July 19 2011 07:38 lkjewq wrote:
I 13 hatch every game and I'm grandmaster. It's good and your larva is only idle at 3 for a couple of seconds. It is equivalent to less than half a larva with pool on 15 regardless of worker micro. It also is the zerg opening with the most minerals by 6 minutes. This is with drone scouting immediately after sending drone down to make a hatch.
Maybe I shouldn't call it outright bad...
Its nice getting the hatch down sooner, making it less likely to be blocked, but there's no debating that it slows your droning, even if just slightly.
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13hatch is fine. It would be more popular if terrans actually e-bay blocked 15hatch builds.
As for opening roach: I would get a couple lings out before throwing down the roach warren to get rid of the scouting scv and feign speedling. Once you build the roach warren you get 20 drones in total, which is enough to build pure roach. Then you go allin.
Or you can build just 4/5 roaches, take drones off gas, and try to saturate your natural. This is meh though since opening speedling is more economic and can allow you to counter.
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On July 19 2011 08:11 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 07:38 lkjewq wrote:
I 13 hatch every game and I'm grandmaster. It's good and your larva is only idle at 3 for a couple of seconds. It is equivalent to less than half a larva with pool on 15 regardless of worker micro. It also is the zerg opening with the most minerals by 6 minutes. This is with drone scouting immediately after sending drone down to make a hatch. Maybe I shouldn't call it outright bad... Its nice getting the hatch down sooner, making it less likely to be blocked, but there's no debating that it slows your droning, even if just slightly.
Mr Bitter: + Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174374
you get the hatch down faster which leads to less blocking you lose a small fraction of larva on your main hatchery but your expansion hatchery gets up faster for better saturation/creep spread and oh yeah it spawns LARVA as well so it makes up for the larva you lost on the main hatch.
Personally I dislike the roach openings because I find speedlings are way more versatile and can do a great deal when micro'd well. Not to mention they offer a means of map control and pressure that roaches really dont offer, even with this build.
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This sounds really good. A lot of gas-first openings open with just precautionary 1 marauder though; 1 marauder behind a wall (or even without the wall) would be enough to repel this, wouldn't it?
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I dont rly like to play with a strict buildorder as zerg... But I guess your build is good if the terran is doing X and not Y and I dont like to play in that way
+ I hate having roaches in ZvT (unless the terran goes mech)
Also as ppl have said before, 13 hatch is kinda meh
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@lkjewq: Is engineering bay blocking something that happens frequently? I haven't encountered it much myself really. Surely something like that could be more damaging to the terran's build order then it is to your's?
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Norway839 Posts
On July 19 2011 19:18 deathcount248 wrote:
This sounds really good. A lot of gas-first openings open with just precautionary 1 marauder though; 1 marauder behind a wall (or even without the wall) would be enough to repel this, wouldn't it?
Hi, thanks! Watch the top replay in the original post, it's a perfect example of what happens should you hit a wall like that. You can also do more damage if you have an overlord for upvision. 2 marauders or 1 marauder and 2 marines in a bunker stops this 4 roach push dead from attacking up the ramp itself, but you can softcontain his natural until he has at least 2 marauders and 2-3 marines. By that time your eco is very strong and you also get a good read on what route your opponent is taking! Much of the art with this build is knowing where to keep your 4 roaches at what different times and when to back off =)
It is true that this build is weak against precautionary marauder and it's also not the best against siege tank rush, but if he does not make enough marines it should be possible to delay his orbital with lair&overlord. Like I wrote in the guide this build is terrible against medium computer (marine marauder rush), but those builds are very uncommon because of their weakness against traditional zerg openers with speedlings.
On July 19 2011 19:31 JoeAWESOME wrote:I dont rly like to play with a strict buildorder as zerg... But I guess your build is good if the terran is doing X and not Y and I dont like to play in that way + I hate having roaches in ZvT (unless the terran goes mech) Also as ppl have said before, 13 hatch is kinda meh
13 hatch is fine like the other posters in this thread has stated, the larva thing is not an issue and you get really early creep, its very good for the early queen in the natural & creep tumor. I understand not liking roaches in ZvT and I agree, they are often bad against bio and siege tanks, but the purpose of this build is not to go more roaches unless you have to. You only use the timing push to apply pressure, delay his expand and drone behind it... please watch the top replay, as you can see, i dont make more roaches after the first 4 (i think)
This build is strong because it has some sweet strict timing and if you dont like strict timings then i guess this build is not for you :D i hope you try it out at least once though!
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I took this build from your stream, and it works out pretty well for me
Thank you Snute
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Any decent Terran who goes Reapers will be looking for both the amount of gas mined and the timing of speed.. Unless you can hide both, a marauder and a bunker makes you waste 100 gas.
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ran into this earlier =p its a scary build when you don't see it coming.
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On July 19 2011 18:19 lkjewq wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 08:11 MrBitter wrote:On July 19 2011 07:38 lkjewq wrote:
I 13 hatch every game and I'm grandmaster. It's good and your larva is only idle at 3 for a couple of seconds. It is equivalent to less than half a larva with pool on 15 regardless of worker micro. It also is the zerg opening with the most minerals by 6 minutes. This is with drone scouting immediately after sending drone down to make a hatch. Maybe I shouldn't call it outright bad... Its nice getting the hatch down sooner, making it less likely to be blocked, but there's no debating that it slows your droning, even if just slightly. Mr Bitter: + Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174374
you get the hatch down faster which leads to less blocking you lose a small fraction of larva on your main hatchery but your expansion hatchery gets up faster for better saturation/creep spread and oh yeah it spawns LARVA as well so it makes up for the larva you lost on the main hatch. Personally I dislike the roach openings because I find speedlings are way more versatile and can do a great deal when micro'd well. Not to mention they offer a means of map control and pressure that roaches really dont offer, even with this build.
You don't "make up" any larva. You're going to get the larva from your new hatchery regardless of when you start that hatch.
Look, I've played with 13 hatch. Personally I don't really like it. That doesn't mean that it isn't viable.
I think if you step back and look at allll the top guys, though, you'll notice a trend of hatching later than 13 because, at the end of the day, it's a little bit more efficient.
edit:
And because I don't want to derail this thread any further, this is the last time I'll speak to 13 hatch.
(lol, I said I wasn't going to mention it the first time I posted here for this very reason)
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No, you make up the larvae. You waste a few seconds of larvae time at 13 supply, but the 13 hatch begins generating larvae sooner than a 15 hatch... so you essentially make up the larvae.
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Interesting, I've been looking for a good Roach build in ZvT. I think they're an underused unit, really only coming out when Mech is on the field, but in fact I find they fare well against the standard Marine/Tank/Medivac group as well, especially with speed and upgrades and Infestor/Speedling support.
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Norway839 Posts
Keep in mind that this build isn't neccesarily intended for a roach-centric midgame even though it begins with roaches. It works for that as well, but the important thing is to transition correctly as your 4 roaches in combination with your overlords help you identify the game plan of the terran! :D
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just from playing around with timings the biggest advantage of the earlier hatch is the creep spread it creates. This allows you to place your roach warren in a better spot, possibly blocking a hellion path.
If you follow the build to the t (no zerglings) then your roach warren will probably be scouted, which isnt always a bad thing
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Norway839 Posts
Yes, but unfortunately it is very limited due to the timing. At best you can create a link for an early midgame-wall. I think I would build it in the main, but that's down to personal preference
+ Show Spoiler [Expo creep level at warren timing] +
Update: I also checked the creep timing up against the placement of creep tumor in the expansion when using 13hatch instant-queen-in-expo, I think it is just before the natural creep from the hatchery itself is about to reach its limit. I think it's 1 tile away from maximum, perhaps 2. Could be very random tho
+ Show Spoiler [First Tumor with 13h instant-nat-queen] +
(ps: roach warren timing executed wrongly in the screenshot, its supposed to be earlier^_^)
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On July 19 2011 05:21 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 05:06 KimJongChill wrote:
what do people find so repugnant about a 13 hatch? just wondering.. In the early game, Zerg has a very limited amount of larva to work with. A hatchery will produce one larva every 12 seconds, but it will stop producing any time it has 3 idle larva. (Queen inject not included) So any build that doesn't make efficient use of your early game larva is usually considered kinda bad... 13 hatch will have you cut drones for quite some time, and you will be sitting on 3 idle larva long enough to have wasted 2-3 units worth of larva. Might not seem like much, but consider ZvZ. If your opponent's first 2 lings kill 2-3 drones, how behind do you feel? Answer should be very.
1315 and 1415 are the two most economical builds under the conditions that:
- no gas is taken
- you make pure drone into your 20s supply.
If these two conditions are satisfied, 1315 and 1415 with about 6 drones transferred are the best openings. This is just off memory of TL experiments going way back. There were two different, independent large scale experiments. 1415 was concluded to be the best in one, and 1315 in the other. In these experiments, the earlier queens must have compensated for the temporarily stifling of larvae production when the main had 3 larvae doing nothing.
But yeah, if these assumptions don't hold, which they don't in real games, 1315 and 1415 may (and in the 1315 case I suspect it would) fall behind their conventional counterpart, the 1515. 1515 gives faster lings as well, so is better against a 9pool or 10pool build range, 1413 no speed banelings, 11/12 et al 2 raxes and so on.
PS I do have my reservations w.r.t. the above experiments. Even people in high masters can have atrocious drone stacking, and I'm not even sure if the experimenter used drone stacking. And when the 1515 was attempted the experimenter may not have rallied from the 14th egg, which is the optimal way to 1515 when the eggs are facing away from the mineral line, or the distance from main to natural is scrapstation-esque far away. 14th egg to natural is also optimal if you have 2 drones on all 4 close patches from about the 9th or 10th drone onwards, no matter the map.
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does this work against 2 port banshee? cuz my friend goes 2 port banshee and then marine hellions
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Norway839 Posts
On March 02 2012 17:37 kidbuu wrote:
does this work against 2 port banshee? cuz my friend goes 2 port banshee and then marine hellions
It's one of the weakest builds against 2port if you skip additional queens. It's fine if you follow it up with more queens and detection.
The roaches will block any sort of expand play and you might be able to buy time and see the banshees if you move the roaches to his natural. You can also deal a lot of damage if your friend forgets to place down a bunker with his 2 port build.
It's more about your transition though. You only commit to 4 roaches, but choose your transition from there wisely.
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I just wanted to say thanks for this awesome build. Executing it right now in Diamond League and won six ZvT in a row after losing twice while learning it. It's a rally awesome macro opening and quite easy to execute.
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I see it is mentioned that this build does very well against hellion opening. I have a feeling it may run into problems against a hellion open with 1 marauder.
This opening has the following at ~6:00-6:10
-2 hellions (and 2 hellion well on their way building)
-2 marines
-1 maurauder
-CC almost done
Supply depot wall can tank while last 2 hellions pop out.
With this composition at the front it seams to me that it should be easy to defend against 4 roaches even if two of the hellions are stuck outside the wall.
I have been using this build for awhile with the single blind marauder to help against 6 roach rushes. The techlab later gets reused for factory, or is used for stim (depends).
A terran opening like this could cause a lot of problem as far as I can tell. Anyone agree/disagree?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/A4nCk.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/644aS.jpg)
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