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On July 19 2011 06:40 nunez wrote:
had to test this.
if you don't drone scout, micro your workers early game, send out drone on correct time etc etc, you avoid being idle on 3 larvae going 13 hatch by a few seconds.
If you don't drone scout you don't see the 2 rax, which is a build order win... Not to mention the countless other things you miss.
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a very safe opening but it's a risk as 50/50 players are going 2 rax or reactored hellion. As a safe guard, I've simply been going for pool first builds, I usually do something like this...
14 gas
14 pool
16 queen
19 hatch
From here, I either get a 2nd queen IF I spotted that the terran is opening with no gas or going 2 rax. IF I see he gets a geyser, instead of the 2nd queen I get a roach warren (21-22 supply) and I keep 2 guys on gas geyser instead of just 1 after getting speed upgrade for my zerglings.
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On July 19 2011 07:01 emc wrote:
a very safe opening but it's a risk as 50/50 players are going 2 rax or reactored hellion. As a safe guard, I've simply been going for pool first builds, I usually do something like this...
14 gas
14 pool
16 queen
19 hatch
From here, I either get a 2nd queen IF I spotted that the terran is opening with no gas or going 2 rax. IF I see he gets a geyser, instead of the 2nd queen I get a roach warren (21-22 supply) and I keep 2 guys on gas geyser instead of just 1 after getting speed upgrade for my zerglings.
it's not risky at all. The build doesn't even start until after the spawning pool finishes.
If you scout 2 rax, then don't make roach warren when the pool finishes. Simple.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Does this build works vs Protoss?
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Norway32 Posts
On July 19 2011 06:55 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 06:40 nunez wrote:
had to test this.
if you don't drone scout, micro your workers early game, send out drone on correct time etc etc, you avoid being idle on 3 larvae going 13 hatch by a few seconds. If you don't drone scout you don't see the 2 rax, which is a build order win... Not to mention the countless other things you miss.
You can often times tell whether a terran is going 2 rax or not by the information you get from a overlord scout or the timing of a potential scouting SCV.
But yeah, I guess its a reason for why 13 hatch isn't standard. A 14 or 15 hatch wouldn't change the roach timings much as far as I can see, so with some very minor alterations this build should be easily executable with a 14 or 15 hatch.
Else than this, this build is really viable and I'm defintely going to play around with this. This closes out most hellion tech paths as well as giving you good aggressive options (which really isn't too usual in zvt). You have to be cautions of banshee transitions though, as I would guess a lot of terrans seeing their hellions plans failing to roaches would immediatly go banshees to do some damage.
Oh and watch this guy's stream. He's awesome.
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I 13 hatch every game and I'm grandmaster. It's good and your larva is only idle at 3 for a couple of seconds. It is equivalent to less than half a larva with pool on 15 regardless of worker micro. It also is the zerg opening with the most minerals by 6 minutes. This is with drone scouting immediately after sending drone down to make a hatch.
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thanks for the post blasius and snute. was looking for some direction zvt and i think i found it. ive been going a little more roach heavy the last few games ive played and its worked out well.
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Norway32 Posts
On July 19 2011 07:38 lkjewq wrote:
I 13 hatch every game and I'm grandmaster. It's good and your larva is only idle at 3 for a couple of seconds. It is equivalent to less than half a larva with pool on 15 regardless of worker micro. It also is the zerg opening with the most minerals by 6 minutes. This is with drone scouting immediately after sending drone down to make a hatch.
is 13 hatch really that good? Wow, maybe I should start to use that myself then. Didn't know that, thanks ^^,
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Will definitely be looking into this build. I've been opening with roaches alot recently to scare off the ever increasing popularity of blue flame hellions. I love playing muta ling baneling against terran, and having 10 or so roaches in the composition makes the clean up easier after killing all of the tanks. Nothing makes me more unhappy than seeing 10 + blue flame hellions rolling with a terran army when I'm zergling heavy.
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Off topic concerning the 13 hatch thing:
+ Show Spoiler +I like 15 hatch 15 gas 16 pool.
The reasoning is: it can defend 2 rax, it gives you 100 gas as well roughly when pool finish so you can start ling speed at once OR roach warren (and afford 4 roaches) while taking drones off gas, and it's awesome econ.
I noticed that it was used a bit in the GSL if the Z didn't expect 2 rax with heavy bunkering, and I find it works quite well.
(one of the key things is to move 10-11 drones to expo right before it finish, so if it's pressure, you have the drones there for defense to kill marines and SCV's).
I just feel that it gives the most options, because you do get that extra early gas with the option of using it for several things depending on what you meet.
Much prefer it to the more common 22-24 gas timings I see a lot of people use, because I find that defending heavy pressure without ling speed, or getting good enough map control and scouting, feels harsh with such late ling speed.
On topic:
I really like this opening, that is, the idea, I have been using something slightly similiar at times in theory (quick fast roaches to pressure or defend) as I find many terrans have insufficient defenses early if they are not going for pressure since they feel wall off is safe.
I'll experiment some with this exact thing and see how it goes.
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On July 19 2011 06:55 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 06:40 nunez wrote:
had to test this.
if you don't drone scout, micro your workers early game, send out drone on correct time etc etc, you avoid being idle on 3 larvae going 13 hatch by a few seconds. If you don't drone scout you don't see the 2 rax, which is a build order win... Not to mention the countless other things you miss.
true dat.
not advocating no drone scout, but since op is indicating he doesn't drone scout i guess 13 hatch isn't actually idling larvae in this case. you will be delaying drones, but your hatch will go up faster. snute hinted at it being a stylistic choice.
you can scout on 11th or 12th drone as well and avoid the idling (i tried with 9 overlord, no extractor trick) by a smidge!
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Norway32 Posts
On July 19 2011 08:05 nunez wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 06:55 MrBitter wrote:On July 19 2011 06:40 nunez wrote:
had to test this.
if you don't drone scout, micro your workers early game, send out drone on correct time etc etc, you avoid being idle on 3 larvae going 13 hatch by a few seconds. If you don't drone scout you don't see the 2 rax, which is a build order win... Not to mention the countless other things you miss. true dat. not advocating no drone scout, but since op is indicating he doesn't drone scout i guess 13 hatch isn't actually idling larvae in this case. you will be delaying drones, but your hatch will go up faster. snute hinted at it being a stylistic choice. you can scout on 11th or 12th drone as well and avoid the idling (i tried with 9 overlord, no extractor trick) by a smidge!
Sending a scouting drone on 13 along with your expansion drone will easily arrive in time to scout a 2 rax and smoothly transition out of this build.
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On July 19 2011 07:38 lkjewq wrote:
I 13 hatch every game and I'm grandmaster. It's good and your larva is only idle at 3 for a couple of seconds. It is equivalent to less than half a larva with pool on 15 regardless of worker micro. It also is the zerg opening with the most minerals by 6 minutes. This is with drone scouting immediately after sending drone down to make a hatch.
Maybe I shouldn't call it outright bad...
Its nice getting the hatch down sooner, making it less likely to be blocked, but there's no debating that it slows your droning, even if just slightly.
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13hatch is fine. It would be more popular if terrans actually e-bay blocked 15hatch builds.
As for opening roach: I would get a couple lings out before throwing down the roach warren to get rid of the scouting scv and feign speedling. Once you build the roach warren you get 20 drones in total, which is enough to build pure roach. Then you go allin.
Or you can build just 4/5 roaches, take drones off gas, and try to saturate your natural. This is meh though since opening speedling is more economic and can allow you to counter.
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On July 19 2011 08:11 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 07:38 lkjewq wrote:
I 13 hatch every game and I'm grandmaster. It's good and your larva is only idle at 3 for a couple of seconds. It is equivalent to less than half a larva with pool on 15 regardless of worker micro. It also is the zerg opening with the most minerals by 6 minutes. This is with drone scouting immediately after sending drone down to make a hatch. Maybe I shouldn't call it outright bad... Its nice getting the hatch down sooner, making it less likely to be blocked, but there's no debating that it slows your droning, even if just slightly.
Mr Bitter: + Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174374
you get the hatch down faster which leads to less blocking you lose a small fraction of larva on your main hatchery but your expansion hatchery gets up faster for better saturation/creep spread and oh yeah it spawns LARVA as well so it makes up for the larva you lost on the main hatch.
Personally I dislike the roach openings because I find speedlings are way more versatile and can do a great deal when micro'd well. Not to mention they offer a means of map control and pressure that roaches really dont offer, even with this build.
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This sounds really good. A lot of gas-first openings open with just precautionary 1 marauder though; 1 marauder behind a wall (or even without the wall) would be enough to repel this, wouldn't it?
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I dont rly like to play with a strict buildorder as zerg... But I guess your build is good if the terran is doing X and not Y and I dont like to play in that way 
+ I hate having roaches in ZvT (unless the terran goes mech)
Also as ppl have said before, 13 hatch is kinda meh
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@lkjewq: Is engineering bay blocking something that happens frequently? I haven't encountered it much myself really. Surely something like that could be more damaging to the terran's build order then it is to your's?
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Norway839 Posts
On July 19 2011 19:18 deathcount248 wrote:
This sounds really good. A lot of gas-first openings open with just precautionary 1 marauder though; 1 marauder behind a wall (or even without the wall) would be enough to repel this, wouldn't it?
Hi, thanks! Watch the top replay in the original post, it's a perfect example of what happens should you hit a wall like that. You can also do more damage if you have an overlord for upvision. 2 marauders or 1 marauder and 2 marines in a bunker stops this 4 roach push dead from attacking up the ramp itself, but you can softcontain his natural until he has at least 2 marauders and 2-3 marines. By that time your eco is very strong and you also get a good read on what route your opponent is taking! Much of the art with this build is knowing where to keep your 4 roaches at what different times and when to back off =)
It is true that this build is weak against precautionary marauder and it's also not the best against siege tank rush, but if he does not make enough marines it should be possible to delay his orbital with lair&overlord. Like I wrote in the guide this build is terrible against medium computer (marine marauder rush), but those builds are very uncommon because of their weakness against traditional zerg openers with speedlings.
On July 19 2011 19:31 JoeAWESOME wrote:I dont rly like to play with a strict buildorder as zerg... But I guess your build is good if the terran is doing X and not Y and I dont like to play in that way + I hate having roaches in ZvT (unless the terran goes mech) Also as ppl have said before, 13 hatch is kinda meh
13 hatch is fine like the other posters in this thread has stated, the larva thing is not an issue and you get really early creep, its very good for the early queen in the natural & creep tumor. I understand not liking roaches in ZvT and I agree, they are often bad against bio and siege tanks, but the purpose of this build is not to go more roaches unless you have to. You only use the timing push to apply pressure, delay his expand and drone behind it... please watch the top replay, as you can see, i dont make more roaches after the first 4 (i think)
This build is strong because it has some sweet strict timing and if you dont like strict timings then i guess this build is not for you :D i hope you try it out at least once though!
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I took this build from your stream, and it works out pretty well for me
Thank you Snute
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EPT
