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On July 04 2011 00:07 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Second against void rays you do NOT get more thors... That's just stupid. Void rays ass rape thors per cost. Get marines or vikings for VRs. I do a marine hellion tank push, into a tank bunker contain that works wonders for me to get out a slew of vikings for the collsai.
What?
you do mech every game and you havent realised 3-5 thors rape VR so hard.
Mech is good if you dont die early on, its just hard not to die early. good scouting is the key to mech.
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On July 04 2011 00:49 Johnranger-123 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 00:07 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Second against void rays you do NOT get more thors... That's just stupid. Void rays ass rape thors per cost. Get marines or vikings for VRs. I do a marine hellion tank push, into a tank bunker contain that works wonders for me to get out a slew of vikings for the collsai. What? you do mech every game and you havent realised 3-5 thors rape VR so hard. Mech is good if you dont die early on, its just hard not to die early. good scouting is the key to mech.
VRs beat thors per cost. VRs can fly. VRs get auto targeted by thors, therefore not hitting your ground army. So those 5-6 thors are doing cockshit damage to the VRs as the rest of his army just 1a's over you.
I don't get why people are saying thors beat VRs. You're doing what... 12? 14 damage a volley over 70+ to ground units.
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On July 03 2011 19:15 Nairi wrote:There is a great guide for building what he calls a terran death ball, actually implementing most terran units into the mix, including strategies on how to counter most toss builds: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=232753The big difference between mech and bio is that mech units are awful in small numbers and bio is amazing in small numbers. Meaning that with bio you want to engage with less then 100 food, or in many small engagements over the map. Protoss army somply becomes too strong in a 200/200 engagement (not unbeatable, but unless you are ahead in upgrades or economy you are fighting a uphill battle)
I have to disagree with this. Bio is only effective in smaller numbers as long as there is no charge and blink out for protoss. It gets even worse when there are Archons and HTs. At this point I much rather fight a big battle against a Protoss than throwing away small portions of my army for zero damage.
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On July 04 2011 01:05 Baum wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2011 19:15 Nairi wrote:There is a great guide for building what he calls a terran death ball, actually implementing most terran units into the mix, including strategies on how to counter most toss builds: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=232753The big difference between mech and bio is that mech units are awful in small numbers and bio is amazing in small numbers. Meaning that with bio you want to engage with less then 100 food, or in many small engagements over the map. Protoss army somply becomes too strong in a 200/200 engagement (not unbeatable, but unless you are ahead in upgrades or economy you are fighting a uphill battle) I have to disagree with this. Bio is only effective in smaller numbers as long as there is no charge and blink out for protoss. It gets even worse when there are Archons and HTs. At this point I much rather fight a big battle against a Protoss than throwing away small portions of my army for zero damage.
If you have mass emps and enough vikings to deal with collosus, bio does fine late game as well.
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On July 03 2011 12:54 redbrain wrote:
But my question is, if i play the standard bio into ghosts and vikings vs protoss i can _only_ win by kind of getting lucky or double pronged attack with a drop around the 10-12 min mark to get some some good dmg done to their tech or econ so i can get ahead max out and hit another timming off that.
Lol, how is that a question? that's just whining.
All the top terrans are successful playing bio so I doubt you can only win by getting lucky
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With mech tvp you can easily be abused in like 20 different ways. With bio+viking+ghost you have good opportunities to win the game but if it reaches late game with templar/collosus your army will never directly be stronger than protoss.
It's pretty tricky, because mech can work if you get maxed out with orbital farming and scv sacrifices, but the difficult part is getting to that point.
bio+viking+ghost+nuke almost always ends up with you being really mobile and running around the map in circles as much as possible, but the protoss army almost always seems stronger than yours if the protoss knows what they are doing.
skyterran imo is the strongest lategame tvp style, if you can get maxed out with all BCS/vikings/banshees, orbital farm, and 5-6 ghosts. Every time I've reached that point with skyterran i've had 100% win ratio vs any unit composition protoss went. It's essentially Terran deathball that protoss cannot kill. It's just tricky to get there. Just my 2 cents.
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The issue with Mech is not zeals or stalkers, or even immortals. Really its the Collosi. Tanks work because they have fodder such as Hellions or Marines in front of them. Without the fodder tanks die. In Standard TvP Maruaders have 125 HP and Medics thus they tank dmg. They also Kite. But in TvP Mech you have Hellions, but you a) don't have medics and b) can't kite because of your tanks.
Mech is effective as long as the Collosi count doesn't get to high, which is your job. Terran unlike other races does not benefit from Turtling, but rather aggression and harassment. If your gonna Mech you have to constantly pressure your opponent.
To do so you need PDD. PDD makes it so you could have a lower food army beat a higher food, because you are negating a large part of the army with PDD.
Personally i like to open 1/1/1 And do a Marine Tank Banshee Raven attack. If they also 1 base then I expand. If they Expand then i attack to put pressure, usually killing the expo or forcing a probe pull and expand behind it. After that I add factories for Hellions continuing Banshee Tank Ravens. All the while harassing. When i have energy for PDD I attack. I use PDD and the Banshees to snipe the Collosi or at least keep them at bay.
Aslong as you keep the Collosi count down Mech is good, because your Hellions don't Die. If your hellions don't die then your tanks are safe.
Remember PDD and EMP allow you to have a lower food count, but still have the advantage in the Battle.
As for Backstabs, PF and Turrets. These two pretty much solve all the backstab mobility issues.
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I think the last time mech was used late game in the GSL was in the GSTL season 2 MVP vs Squirtle (MVP lost), so yes, you can say that Mech just isn't an option against a protoss who knows what he's doing.
I find this rather worrying, isn't each matchup supposed to have different unit compositions for each race because it really seems Blizzard is fine with this and doesn't mind seeing the same games all over again. Also because of the the instant nerf the thor got during TSL3 when Thorzain showed his build.
Now, I know mech builds will have some success in masters and lower leagues, but the fact we haven't seen mech in late game vs protoss in GSL with players who practice 10 hours a day and who are probably constantly trying out new builds, shows that it's very/too hard to pull off against players who know how to counter this.
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On July 04 2011 02:11 Pseudo- wrote:
I think the last time mech was used late game in the GSL was in the GSTL season 2 MVP vs Squirtle (MVP lost), so yes, you can say that Mech just isn't an option against a protoss who knows what he's doing.
I find this rather worrying, isn't each matchup supposed to have different unit compositions for each race because it really seems Blizzard is fine with this and doesn't mind seeing the same games all over again. Also because of the the instant nerf the thor got during TSL3 when Thorzain showed his build.
Now, I know mech builds will have some success in masters and lower leagues, but the fact we haven't seen mech in late game vs protoss in GSL with players who practice 10 hours a day and who are probably constantly trying out new builds, shows that it's very/too hard to pull off against players who know how to counter this.
All MVP do was make tanks that had no upgrades and Turtle. He played like crap. He had no EMPS, or Ravens for PDD. Just flipping tanks. No wonder he lost. If he had 3/3 Mech EMP Ravens and Hellions with PF support with the crap ton of minerals in the bank he would have won.
Also he should have hellion dropped. All these stupid terran open up blue flame, yet stop using them after the 10min mark. Blue Hellion Drops are flipping OP as hell.
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On July 04 2011 02:20 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 02:11 Pseudo- wrote:
I think the last time mech was used late game in the GSL was in the GSTL season 2 MVP vs Squirtle (MVP lost), so yes, you can say that Mech just isn't an option against a protoss who knows what he's doing.
I find this rather worrying, isn't each matchup supposed to have different unit compositions for each race because it really seems Blizzard is fine with this and doesn't mind seeing the same games all over again. Also because of the the instant nerf the thor got during TSL3 when Thorzain showed his build.
Now, I know mech builds will have some success in masters and lower leagues, but the fact we haven't seen mech in late game vs protoss in GSL with players who practice 10 hours a day and who are probably constantly trying out new builds, shows that it's very/too hard to pull off against players who know how to counter this. All MVP do was make tanks that had no upgrades and Turtle. He played like crap. He had no EMPS, or Ravens for PDD. Just flipping tanks. No wonder he lost. If he had 3/3 Mech EMP Ravens and Hellions with PF support with the crap ton of minerals in the bank he would have won. Also he should have hellion dropped. All these stupid terran open up blue flame, yet stop using them after the 10min mark. Blue Hellion Drops are flipping OP as hell.
that wasn't my point, it was the fact that it has been such a long time that we've seen mech late game in GSL.
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Northern Ireland117 Posts
Hey i just want to say a big thank you!!! to SunTzuEU mech really is working 1000000x better for me, it feels way better and stronger since it relys on good scouting and good macro. Bio feels way too much like a coin flip for me if i get good dmg done by drops to get ahead i win by hitting a timming off that and it just feels hyper lame its like 50/50 if i hit it or i dont.
Because personally i feel my TvZ and TvT is much much stronger and my ZvT and ZvZ to be much much stronger, it feels like very macro orientated players have alot of problems vs protoss at the moment. and it feels like mech lets me focus on macro and take a lead based on macro moreso than bio ever did.
If i go mech i can threaten blue flame helion drops but also hold a position really well. But also if you get a macro lead its 100x easier to hold that lead than compared to bio because 1 bad click with bio your army dissapears but with mech your on power with their army to some extend in dmg wise.
It think its kind of map dependant or spawning position for example shakuras plataeu its worked really really well for me, but on metalopalis with close air it felt awkard but then again it was my first game of it and i think this style requires you to expand closer to your enmy and start an early contain to work properly but if your macro is good you can max out much faster than protoss with a stronger army and take the map.
I think i need some more practice but it really does work i think i need to mix in some vikings for sighting instead of wasting scans
Its defenitly a good style i think i will stick with it feels more close to what i enjoy playing.
I will maybe only use bio on maps like scrap station or close air position maps because it maps drops in the main easier.
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I usually do a FE either 2 rax or 1 rax marauder and throw down bunkers according to what I scout. I get fast upgrades and throw down a 2nd starport after I get about 2 medivacs (providing I scout colossus) and then push when I have 2/2 with what I have.
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On July 04 2011 03:42 redbrain wrote:
Hey i just want to say a big thank you!!! to SunTzuEU mech really is working 1000000x better for me, it feels way better and stronger since it relys on good scouting and good macro. Bio feels way too much like a coin flip for me if i get good dmg done by drops to get ahead i win by hitting a timming off that and it just feels hyper lame its like 50/50 if i hit it or i dont.
Because personally i feel my TvZ and TvT is much much stronger and my ZvT and ZvZ to be much much stronger, it feels like very macro orientated players have alot of problems vs protoss at the moment. and it feels like mech lets me focus on macro and take a lead based on macro moreso than bio ever did.
If i go mech i can threaten blue flame helion drops but also hold a position really well. But also if you get a macro lead its 100x easier to hold that lead than compared to bio because 1 bad click with bio your army dissapears but with mech your on power with their army to some extend in dmg wise.
It think its kind of map dependant or spawning position for example shakuras plataeu its worked really really well for me, but on metalopalis with close air it felt awkard but then again it was my first game of it and i think this style requires you to expand closer to your enmy and start an early contain to work properly but if your macro is good you can max out much faster than protoss with a stronger army and take the map.
I think i need some more practice but it really does work i think i need to mix in some vikings for sighting instead of wasting scans
Its defenitly a good style i think i will stick with it feels more close to what i enjoy playing.
I will maybe only use bio on maps like scrap station or close air position maps because it maps drops in the main easier.
Woah, I'm happy you appreciated it and that it's working out fine for you! I'm just like you, bio feels really squishy and.. just... ew... I like mech a lot more!
Regarding meta, I usually go for the gold as my third and just turtle up until the toss gets enough and decides to push into my siege lines /PF (which always ends badly :D), just like I did in the replay, and it works 100% if I get to the time I take the gold. 
If he like never ever pushes, you can just push really really slowly by putting down planetaries as you push!
And regarding vikings instead of scans, I don't know, I usually get a lot of extra minerals when going mech, so I don't think you really need those mules, if that's what you mean. But a few vikings wouldn't hurt!
Best of luck with your mech, and if you have any questions/want additional replays in the future you can msg me on b.net EU: SunTzu.438
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On July 04 2011 04:20 SunTzuEU wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 03:42 redbrain wrote:
Hey i just want to say a big thank you!!! to SunTzuEU mech really is working 1000000x better for me, it feels way better and stronger since it relys on good scouting and good macro. Bio feels way too much like a coin flip for me if i get good dmg done by drops to get ahead i win by hitting a timming off that and it just feels hyper lame its like 50/50 if i hit it or i dont.
Because personally i feel my TvZ and TvT is much much stronger and my ZvT and ZvZ to be much much stronger, it feels like very macro orientated players have alot of problems vs protoss at the moment. and it feels like mech lets me focus on macro and take a lead based on macro moreso than bio ever did.
If i go mech i can threaten blue flame helion drops but also hold a position really well. But also if you get a macro lead its 100x easier to hold that lead than compared to bio because 1 bad click with bio your army dissapears but with mech your on power with their army to some extend in dmg wise.
It think its kind of map dependant or spawning position for example shakuras plataeu its worked really really well for me, but on metalopalis with close air it felt awkard but then again it was my first game of it and i think this style requires you to expand closer to your enmy and start an early contain to work properly but if your macro is good you can max out much faster than protoss with a stronger army and take the map.
I think i need some more practice but it really does work i think i need to mix in some vikings for sighting instead of wasting scans
Its defenitly a good style i think i will stick with it feels more close to what i enjoy playing.
I will maybe only use bio on maps like scrap station or close air position maps because it maps drops in the main easier. Woah, I'm happy you appreciated it and that it's working out fine for you! I'm just like you, bio feels really squishy and.. just... ew... I like mech a lot more! Regarding meta, I usually go for the gold as my third and just turtle up until the toss gets enough and decides to push into my siege lines /PF (which always ends badly :D), just like I did in the replay, and it works 100% if I get to the time I take the gold. If he like never ever pushes, you can just push really really slowly by putting down planetaries as you push! And regarding vikings instead of scans, I don't know, I usually get a lot of extra minerals when going mech, so I don't think you really need those mules, if that's what you mean. But a few vikings wouldn't hurt! Best of luck with your mech, and if you have any questions/want additional replays in the future you can msg me on b.net EU: SunTzu.438
I dont think your opening is really safe. There are simply some possibilites for the toss to attack you with blink stalkers/collosus/VR where he cant avoid attacking your bunkers.
But lets say he takes a quick 3rd/4rd. You attack him, and he plays smart and counter you expo. IMO its really not possible for a terran with an immobile army to punish a greedy smart toss player in the early midgame.
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Northern Ireland117 Posts
On July 04 2011 06:20 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 04:20 SunTzuEU wrote:On July 04 2011 03:42 redbrain wrote:
Hey i just want to say a big thank you!!! to SunTzuEU mech really is working 1000000x better for me, it feels way better and stronger since it relys on good scouting and good macro. Bio feels way too much like a coin flip for me if i get good dmg done by drops to get ahead i win by hitting a timming off that and it just feels hyper lame its like 50/50 if i hit it or i dont.
Because personally i feel my TvZ and TvT is much much stronger and my ZvT and ZvZ to be much much stronger, it feels like very macro orientated players have alot of problems vs protoss at the moment. and it feels like mech lets me focus on macro and take a lead based on macro moreso than bio ever did.
If i go mech i can threaten blue flame helion drops but also hold a position really well. But also if you get a macro lead its 100x easier to hold that lead than compared to bio because 1 bad click with bio your army dissapears but with mech your on power with their army to some extend in dmg wise.
It think its kind of map dependant or spawning position for example shakuras plataeu its worked really really well for me, but on metalopalis with close air it felt awkard but then again it was my first game of it and i think this style requires you to expand closer to your enmy and start an early contain to work properly but if your macro is good you can max out much faster than protoss with a stronger army and take the map.
I think i need some more practice but it really does work i think i need to mix in some vikings for sighting instead of wasting scans
Its defenitly a good style i think i will stick with it feels more close to what i enjoy playing.
I will maybe only use bio on maps like scrap station or close air position maps because it maps drops in the main easier. Woah, I'm happy you appreciated it and that it's working out fine for you! I'm just like you, bio feels really squishy and.. just... ew... I like mech a lot more! Regarding meta, I usually go for the gold as my third and just turtle up until the toss gets enough and decides to push into my siege lines /PF (which always ends badly :D), just like I did in the replay, and it works 100% if I get to the time I take the gold. If he like never ever pushes, you can just push really really slowly by putting down planetaries as you push! And regarding vikings instead of scans, I don't know, I usually get a lot of extra minerals when going mech, so I don't think you really need those mules, if that's what you mean. But a few vikings wouldn't hurt! Best of luck with your mech, and if you have any questions/want additional replays in the future you can msg me on b.net EU: SunTzu.438 I dont think your opening is really safe. There are simply some possibilites for the toss to attack you with blink stalkers/collosus/VR where he cant avoid attacking your bunkers. But lets say he takes a quick 3rd/4rd. You attack him, and he plays smart and counter you expo. IMO its really not possible for a terran with an immobile army to punish a greedy smart toss player in the early midgame.
Well i personally disagree, this is the difference mech is working for me because i come from zerg and my macro and scouting was actually very good, and i feel my macro and scouting is also very strong in terran.
Because we get blue flame helions we can actualy threaten alot of drops with them, and protoss players generaly dont have the apm mid game to deal with a blue flame helion drop that well and even if he does take half map so can we if we sit in a good position.
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On July 04 2011 02:25 Pseudo- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 02:20 GinDo wrote:On July 04 2011 02:11 Pseudo- wrote:
I think the last time mech was used late game in the GSL was in the GSTL season 2 MVP vs Squirtle (MVP lost), so yes, you can say that Mech just isn't an option against a protoss who knows what he's doing.
I find this rather worrying, isn't each matchup supposed to have different unit compositions for each race because it really seems Blizzard is fine with this and doesn't mind seeing the same games all over again. Also because of the the instant nerf the thor got during TSL3 when Thorzain showed his build.
Now, I know mech builds will have some success in masters and lower leagues, but the fact we haven't seen mech in late game vs protoss in GSL with players who practice 10 hours a day and who are probably constantly trying out new builds, shows that it's very/too hard to pull off against players who know how to counter this. All MVP do was make tanks that had no upgrades and Turtle. He played like crap. He had no EMPS, or Ravens for PDD. Just flipping tanks. No wonder he lost. If he had 3/3 Mech EMP Ravens and Hellions with PF support with the crap ton of minerals in the bank he would have won. Also he should have hellion dropped. All these stupid terran open up blue flame, yet stop using them after the 10min mark. Blue Hellion Drops are flipping OP as hell. that wasn't my point, it was the fact that it has been such a long time that we've seen mech late game in GSL.
The reason for that is that 1) 3/3 Bio is better then 0/0 Mech. 2) I heard Marauders are good.
The only reason Bio works is because of kiting, Cheap tanking units, and Medics. If The Maruader never actually stays in the storm or in Collosi range, or gets dealt quick enough damage. Thus they simply retreat and get fully healed.
Mech can't do that. Mech is supposed to be the strongest Army composition possible with its weakness being reinforcement, cost, and mobility. Instead you have units like the collosi who destroy the Tanks support force that 1) can't kite or risk leaving the tanks open 2) Can't be healed 3)Don' have as much HP as a Marauder.
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First of all you definitely need a replay. Even if you feel that your question is general, The dynamic in TvP is such that your timings and engagements are critical in every phase of the game. As Terran, you simply can't 1t1a into a toss army, you need to spread your units, flank with vikings, emp if necessary, and spread your units. if both players 1t1a or 1f1a respectively, toss will roll everytime even if they are on worse upgrades. TvP can be an extremely fun match up, but it's definitely not easy.
Again, please post a replay, if for no other reason than not getting banned.
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When I go siege tanks it's always with the intent of switching tech.
No matter your strat, your opponents will eventually find he counter to it. So a unit comp either has to kill the opponent (marine/marauder, etc...), run away from the opponent (medivacs, hellions, etc...) or be constantly evolving and changing. Becase your opponent will adapt to what you have. No matter your strat, don't forget your opponent.
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To the OP, I'd recommend watching MrBitter's VODs on Blip.tv. There are two episodes for TvP. In one QXC discusses a bio-heavy style with harass and drops while PainUser showcases a Bio style with tanks.
You might also like to watch the two PvT episodes with White-Ra and Socke; it will allow you what weaknesses in the terran's play can be exploited by the toss opponent.
Also some tips for TvP using bio-heavy style :
- Never fall behind in upgrades.
- u need to constantly drop harass to damage protoss infrastructure and split up his forces.
Its the same philosophy as in ZvP. A split up toss army is weak and the trade off is generally in your favor since bio units are cheap.
- in a 200/200 situation, the number of vikings in you army should be slightly more than what can 1-shot a collosus. That way, you can take out the collossi fast and your bio army with ghosts for emp should tear through his gateway units.
- positioning is important and the defender has the advantage of being able to position his units. Try not to attack in his base-head on, even if ur max on upgrades and what not. Force him out to engage your perfectly positioned army while by constant harassment.
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On July 04 2011 00:41 iAmJeffReY wrote:
But thors vs VRs is just asking for him to just over run you. But then you play a slow turtle puss style, and I play 115% aggressive in every sense and way
.. Somone's trying to show off his e-peen.
Anyways. I think you should stick with what you started out with. It'll probably be better that way. You really have to work on your drop play. Dropping is very important in TvP bio. Split up army, fight in smaller engagements, that's really what everyone else says. But make sure that when you get a third, try and get it before the toss does, and only get you're second reactor starport when you see he's heavily committed into a Collosus tech.
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EPT
