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Northern Ireland117 Posts
Hey all I've switched to terran for a while i got very frustrated with zerg in zvp in plat. And it seems my TvP is another big weakness.
I find it incredibly frustrating because i consider my TvZ and TvT pretty good and the same for ZvZ and ZvT.
But my question is, if i play the standard bio into ghosts and vikings vs protoss i can _only_ win by kind of getting lucky or double pronged attack with a drop around the 10-12 min mark to get some some good dmg done to their tech or econ so i can get ahead max out and hit another timming off that. Which feels kind of lame to play because the matchup doesnt even remotly feel dynamic like tvt or tvz, its you just loose or win in 1 attack.
It seems even if i do get epic dmg done by drops that and buy time i take more bases.
I've been maxed before with same upgrades and maxed really far ahead on econ and i missed clicked slightly and my army dissapeared even after magical emps because of the storms and collosus.
Its got me thinking i need some more robost way to play and really siege tanks should be amazing vs protoss but it feels like a nightmare because zealots and immortals and even stalkrs with blink are just so amazing vs siege tanks.
I am trying to find if anyone has got a more mech orientated style to work vs protoss and hopefully using sige tanks as the backbone. I guess i would need to go marine sigetank medivac with plenty of vikings for sight and maybe a raven for pdd?
And behind it macro pretty hard so i would be ready to switch into a standard bio force if i loose the siege tanks.
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I don't find mech to be efficient in TvP, I favor a much more bio oriented style. Whether its a fast expand into a lot of barracks, or some sort of early reactor 2 barracks 1 with tech pressure, I think bio is the most efficient way to start. Once you can get a good bio oriented army, tanks and medivacs are nice to help support your troops. Btw, im a mater league Terran about 1100 points
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There is a great guide for building what he calls a terran death ball, actually implementing most terran units into the mix, including strategies on how to counter most toss builds: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=232753
The big difference between mech and bio is that mech units are awful in small numbers and bio is amazing in small numbers.
Meaning that with bio you want to engage with less then 100 food, or in many small engagements over the map. Protoss army somply becomes too strong in a 200/200 engagement (not unbeatable, but unless you are ahead in upgrades or economy you are fighting a uphill battle)
Mech becomes stronger the more you have, so you dont want to engage before you are at 150+ food. (3 tanks tickle zealots, 8 tanks destroy them). I feel that with mech you can be behind in food or ecnomy, but if you get a good engagement you can still win.
There is a third style, skyterran which can be quite powerful if you can catch the toss offguard. Battlecruisers to tank and kill phoenix, banshees (the unit that deals the most damage) and vikings to kill void rays. This style however is gas heavy, and can be fought with templars/archons/stalkers.
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I disagree in that you need less than 100 food as Bio, just watch the latest day9 daily
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I agree with Catch22, watch the latest day9 daily and also check out HalbyStarcraft's TvP styles. I usually go for a MM+Stim timing attack which can win the game or at least deal a ton of damage. Watch out for one-base play though, if you don't see an expansion up and you didn't scout well enough DTs or a 4gate could be knocking at your door anytime soon.
I don't feel Mech is feasible as, unless you're turtling EXTREMELY hard on a map with an easily defensible natural and/or third because Protoss will be able to out-expand and out-macro you.
I've seen Sky terran work really well but I'm incapable of executing it properly. PDDs work really well against a Stalker (or Phoenix, lawl) heavy-army, Zealots are useless, sentries are much less useful when you have a light ground force, and colossi/immortals cry. Worst case scenario, you can kite void rays forever with vikings.
A replay would be helpful.
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Northern Ireland117 Posts
see the build i do at the moment keeps me safe to alot of cheese and DT's, i go for a 1 rax expand into 3 more rax and an engie bay and i put 2 bunkers and 2 turrets down and its all up before dt's can be out the trick is you have to get a reaper first before maruders so you dont have to scan. But i guess i just need to get more agressive i have a real problem with that.
Ifs funny though because in all other matchups except protoss ones macro passive styles are increibly powerful if your macro is good but in protoss matchups their army is just simply too strong so i guess i jsut want to keep attacking more
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I'm a 1.2k masters player, and I've had the same troubles you've been having, so I've started playing
around with mech, and it works really well tbh, it's definately viable, the biggest problem is that it's just that much harder than playing bio and you need really strong decision making.
What I do is that I open up with a 1 rax expand on most maps, either with marauders or marines(depends a bit on map and spawning location), and I then bunker up, the amount of bunkers I put up depends on what I scout, you want to scout for an expansion from the toss, cuz if there is none, you'll have to throw up a ton of bunkers(2-4).
Once my CC lands at my natural I start taking a lot of gas, I start off with 3 geysers, then take more as the game goes on(you want to take your 4th gas pretty soon tho.) Then I throw down 2 factories, 1 with a tech lab for siege tanks obviously and one with a reactor for hellions.
From here:
1. Constantly produce siege tanks and hellions
2. Upgrade first siege mode, then pre-igniter
3. Try and get a fast third command center up if the toss has expanded.
4. Get an engineering bay pretty fast in case of DT's, just make a turret at your naturals choke(you may need more on some maps)
Here is where you need to adapt a lot with mech, I'll list a couple of scenarios and what you wanna do:
The toss has expanded(to his natural, he is on 2base, you are on 2base):
Get a fast 3rd, try and expand towards the toss in a way that protects the attack path that leads to your natural and main(if possible) add on armories for upgrades and factorys for more siege tanks after you've put down your 3rd CC(You don't need more than one factory with a reactor for hellions, focus on siege tanks for the rest of your factories)
The toss is taking a really fast third, or even a fast 4th, trying to outexpand you
This is where many fail, and think they are weaker than they are. You could continue with what I wrote above and take a fast third anyway, but then youre gonna have to wait until your maxed to do any pushes.
BUT, what you actually can do is just slow push his third while taking your own third, make sure to plant down turrets etc and always keep some of your tanks sieged, scan a lot in front of your army, you MUST make sure he does not catch you out of siege. In most cases I am able to snipe his third quite easily. If you do, just back off, unless you've basically killed his entire army if he tried to defend it and have a lot of stuff left.
Some unit compositions that toss usually do vs mech:
Mass immortal:
This is a easy one, if you scout him doing this, just throw down a ghost academy and push when you have 2-3 emp, you'll most likely kill him right there if you do it right. You can turtle and wait for him too, but he might get insane ammounts of immortals, and unless you have planetarys etc and a lot of shit in his way, not even emp will help you in many cases.
Void rays
Get a lot of thors, add in a few marines, you'll totally rape the void rays.
Getting vikings and kiting the void rays is also an option, what ever suits you best, I prefer the first way tho, since thors add a lot to my ground mix too.
Colossus/high templars
This is the easiest mix of them all, just make sure to keep tanks in front of your third in case he tries to push it.
Else, just go heavy on the tanks and scan frequently for any tech transitions so you can adapt in time, and you'll kill this shit off so easily as long as he doesn't get you out of siege mode.
Hope this helps! I might make an elaborate guide on this later, this is really rough, hope you enjoy success with this!
The only replay I have of this currently:
http://drop.sc/18239
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First off, a replay is worth a thousand words. Second off, if you are going bio, the strength with bio is when you split the army up with drops. The protoss colossi ball of doom is a stay together win together army. Many protoss players don't have the apm to deal with 2 or more simultaneous drops, not to mention that 1 medivac full of bio with stim is better than 1 round of warpgate units.
When I don't open bio, then I open 1-1-1 and get some banshees to harass, then I transition out of it by expanding and making 3 more barracks. Research stim and shields and get reactors on as many barracks as possible. I also drop an eBay and armory. No, I'm not massing Marines (as that is a horrible idea). Add a tech lab to your factory and research Thor cannons and get out some thors. Keep making banshees (with cloak) and maybe a few ravens if you have the gas (for pdd). Now, why would this work?
Marines: these unfortunate souls are your mineral dump and they are going to die to zealots and colossi, no way to avoid it.
Banshees: aerial support that can hand out some heavy damage, and because stalkers default target ground, banshees can go unchecked until focused down. Use a scan and snipe the observer, cloak, and eliminate the colossi as fast as possible. Then clean up with them.
Thor: Your dps. They 2 shot sentries, 3 shot zealots and 3 shot stalkers. They have a cannon that allows 1 shotting on colossi if you can get them close enough without the Thor dying. If you lose all of your thors, there is a very good chance you lost the battle. Keep the Marines in front of the thors to absorb the zealot damage and have the thors focus down the gateway units.
Raven: a long ass poem by Edgar Allan Poe...ok, I'll be serious. They are your saving grace vs. Stalkers. Throw down a pdd or two and it will block 20-40 stalker attacks. This is huge. Most of that protoss deathball is made of stalkers. Imagine going to war and your army's guns didn't fire during a war deciding battle. Good. Now you know how protoss feels. Just make sure that your Ravens aren't sniped, that's a lot of gas you put into it. You can also use the raven to save scans and snipe that obs, it makes toss very uncomfortable when their spy goes down.
Not gonna explain why bio works, its pretty basic.
Ok, fine...
Marines: anti air and dps
Marauders: anti armor
Medivac: keeps the army alive
Edit: I'll put up a replay or to of marine Thor banshee. I would do it now but at the airport and posting this from my phone. My credentials: 1v1 platinum as random. I watched pretty much all of the husky casts on YouTube, that's how I learned the basics.
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Mech does not really work against a toss who knows what he is doing.
IMO keep doing the bio. Keep working on your drop play and hopefully this will get you the advantage going into late game.
Mid-game: Typically he will go collosus after his 1/3gate expo. I first start producing vikings after i have like 4-5 medis, as collosus arent good in small numbers. But take qucik second starport and add a reactor, and hence you should be able to have at least 2 vikings for each collosus combined with some medis.
Late game: dont just get 2-3 ghosts. GET A LOT of them. LIke 10 or so (esp against HT, against collosus heavy you can get a few less). By getting 10+ youd ont have to carefully place your emp, just f..... emp every unit the toss has. If you have the money sack some scvs and build OC instead.
I think you follow this rule: Optimal amount of scvs = 80 - 4 * each OC.
So if you can get get like 8 orbitual command you prob just need 48 scvs making your army stronger than the protoss army.
My above advice however typically only applies given that you can get into late game with an advantage. On maps like Tal darim or to some extent xel naga it feels like the toss can take a 3rd just as quick as you, making it very hard for you going into late game. And I think you just have to be a better player than the toss to win late game then. However on most maps you can take a 3rd before him and do some dmg with drops given you a small lead.
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Mech does not really work against a toss who knows what he is doing.
Funny, because I'm 1600 master on NA and 1500 on EU, in a horrible loss streak, but I mech vs protoss every game. I win a LOT of TvP with 3 fac mech pushes and tank contains. My MMR is matching me with 1700-1900 and grandmasters. Odd. I wonder when they're gonna know what they're doing...?
Void rays
Get a lot of thors, add in a few marines, you'll totally rape the void rays.
Getting vikings and kiting the void rays is also an option, what ever suits you best, I prefer the first way tho, since thors add a lot to my ground mix too.
Colossus/high templars
This is the easiest mix of them all, just make sure to keep tanks in front of your third in case he tries to push it.
Else, just go heavy on the tanks and scan frequently for any tech transitions so you can adapt in time, and you'll kill this shit off so easily as long as he doesn't get you out of siege mode.
Horrible advice... First off. HT is the hardest compo to deal with, personally. HT does into mass chargelot/archon/HT which nothing is killable with storm and archons taking tank fire.
Second against void rays you do NOT get more thors... That's just stupid. Void rays ass rape thors per cost. Get marines or vikings for VRs. I do a marine hellion tank push, into a tank bunker contain that works wonders for me to get out a slew of vikings for the collsai.
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For whoever says mech isn't viable, they are crazy, Mech just takes some time getting used to and some good desiscion making.
@OP if you have some good protoss practice partners i'd start trying some siege expand type builds to see if you like it, if not, just get better with bio, keep practicing!!!
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Show nested quote +
Void rays
Get a lot of thors, add in a few marines, you'll totally rape the void rays.
Getting vikings and kiting the void rays is also an option, what ever suits you best, I prefer the first way tho, since thors add a lot to my ground mix too.
Colossus/high templars
This is the easiest mix of them all, just make sure to keep tanks in front of your third in case he tries to push it.
Else, just go heavy on the tanks and scan frequently for any tech transitions so you can adapt in time, and you'll kill this shit off so easily as long as he doesn't get you out of siege mode.
Horrible advice... First off. HT is the hardest compo to deal with, personally. HT does into mass chargelot/archon/HT which nothing is killable with storm and archons taking tank fire. Second against void rays you do NOT get more thors... That's just stupid. Void rays ass rape thors per cost. Get marines or vikings for VRs. I do a marine hellion tank push, into a tank bunker contain that works wonders for me to get out a slew of vikings for the collsai.
You obviously haven't tried getting Thors vs void rays, please do try it before you diss it completely. Void rays get totally annihilated by thors once you have ~6 of them(which doesn't take long to get.)
And wtf, you have troubles against HT with mech? I've never ever lost to it, do you even get hellions? If you micro hellions properly, not only will they DESTROY the chargelots in a matter of seconds together with the tanks, you can also micro them to kill off a ton of templars easily.
Idk how you play mech, but I play a really slow style where I push with planetaries and turrets, but if youre having success with your style, that's fine by me, I was just giving the guy advice which rly isn't terrible advice, because it obviously works for me?
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On July 04 2011 00:22 SunTzuEU wrote:Show nested quote +
Void rays
Get a lot of thors, add in a few marines, you'll totally rape the void rays.
Getting vikings and kiting the void rays is also an option, what ever suits you best, I prefer the first way tho, since thors add a lot to my ground mix too.
Colossus/high templars
This is the easiest mix of them all, just make sure to keep tanks in front of your third in case he tries to push it.
Else, just go heavy on the tanks and scan frequently for any tech transitions so you can adapt in time, and you'll kill this shit off so easily as long as he doesn't get you out of siege mode.
Horrible advice... First off. HT is the hardest compo to deal with, personally. HT does into mass chargelot/archon/HT which nothing is killable with storm and archons taking tank fire. Second against void rays you do NOT get more thors... That's just stupid. Void rays ass rape thors per cost. Get marines or vikings for VRs. I do a marine hellion tank push, into a tank bunker contain that works wonders for me to get out a slew of vikings for the collsai. You obviously haven't tried getting Thors vs void rays, please do try it before you diss it completely. Void rays get totally annihilated by thors once you have ~6 of them(which doesn't take long to get.) And wtf, you have troubles against HT with mech? I've never ever lost to it, do you even get hellions? If you micro hellions properly, not only will they DESTROY the chargelots in a matter of seconds together with the tanks, you can also micro them to kill off a ton of templars easily. Idk how you play mech, but I play a really slow style where I push with planetaries and turrets, but if youre having success with your style, that's fine by me, I was just giving the guy advice which rly isn't terrible advice, because it obviously works for me?
Problem with thors vs VR is that VRs absorb dmg as thors auto fire them. If you decide to do mech ( which is IMO a bad idea) use vikings not thors vs air.
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You obviously haven't tried getting Thors vs void rays, please do try it before you diss it completely. Void rays get totally annihilated by thors once you have ~6 of them(which doesn't take long to get.)
6 void rays > 6 thors. Thors target air over ground. VRs can FF down thors EVEN faster. VRs are armored. Thors attack slow.
And wtf, you have troubles against HT with mech? I've never ever lost to it, do you even get hellions? If you micro hellions properly, not only will they DESTROY the chargelots in a matter of seconds together with the tanks, you can also micro them to kill off a ton of templars easily.
Idk how you play mech, but I play a really slow style where I push with planetaries and turrets, but if youre having success with your style, that's fine by me, I was just giving the guy advice which rly isn't terrible advice, because it obviously works for me?
Well, I think we play different level of protoss. Ever been pushing and got flanked by chargelots and archons from both sides as you try to push? Ever had them warp prism harass you because you have no mobility.
I play an aggressive mech style, not some sit and turtle shit. I make more hellions than you can imagine. Chargelots still hurt hellions badly, as they cover your hellions almost like zerglings before you can get 2 shots off.
Let's just reiterate... I'm playing 1800 or so master protosses and losing to HT/archon/chargelot with upgrades and fast third. Playing passive, with your retarded griffith like style, is just asking to get run over.
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Iamjeffrey:
Most toss dont have experience with mech, so most likely they dont know what they are doing (even high master players, since I guess you meant masters and not grand master players)
So please learn the difference between winning with a build and the long-term sustainibilty of a build.
And since you try to validate your arguments indirectly by refering to your rank as high masters I can inform you that I am higher ranked on both servers than you.
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On July 04 2011 00:38 Hider wrote:
Iamjeffrey:
Most toss dont have experience with mech, so most likely they dont know what they are doing. And now you playing against high masters (there arent any 1900 grand masters out there).
So please learn the difference between winning with a build and the long-term sustainibilty of a build.
And since you try to validate your arguments indirectly by refering to your rank as high masters I can inform you that I am higher ranked on both servers than you.
Odd, because I do seem to win multiple games against the same person using the same build just by changing to what they do.
Odd. And I said 1900 masters, not grandmasters, friend.
And if that's the case, I don't think anyone would suggest THORS vs VRs, at all. Vikings are a much better option. Camp near thors, and kite VRs into thors, maybe. But thors vs VRs is just asking for him to just over run you. But then you play a slow turtle puss style, and I play 115% aggressive in every sense and way
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On July 04 2011 00:30 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +You obviously haven't tried getting Thors vs void rays, please do try it before you diss it completely. Void rays get totally annihilated by thors once you have ~6 of them(which doesn't take long to get.)
6 void rays > 6 thors. Thors target air over ground. VRs can FF down thors EVEN faster. VRs are armored. Thors attack slow. Show nested quote +
And wtf, you have troubles against HT with mech? I've never ever lost to it, do you even get hellions? If you micro hellions properly, not only will they DESTROY the chargelots in a matter of seconds together with the tanks, you can also micro them to kill off a ton of templars easily.
Idk how you play mech, but I play a really slow style where I push with planetaries and turrets, but if youre having success with your style, that's fine by me, I was just giving the guy advice which rly isn't terrible advice, because it obviously works for me?
Well, I think we play different level of protoss. Ever been pushing and got flanked by chargelots and archons from both sides as you try to push? Ever had them warp prism harass you because you have no mobility. I play an aggressive mech style, not some sit and turtle shit. I make more hellions than you can imagine. Chargelots still hurt hellions badly, as they cover your hellions almost like zerglings before you can get 2 shots off. Let's just reiterate... I'm playing 1800 or so master protosses and losing to HT/archon/chargelot with upgrades and fast third. Playing passive, with your retarded griffith like style, is just asking to get run over.
cba, getting into some flamefest, but yeah, you play on a higher level, doesn't mean you necessarily have a better playstyle than me. We play a different mech, mine works for me, yours works for you. I'm fine with your aggressive mech working, youre obviously not fine with my defensive mech style working, mostly because you do not understand it.
To your points: I play tosses at about 1500 rating currently(some even higher), so yes, they are a little bit lower than yours, and yours are probably better, I agree, but for now this is working(and the guy I'm giving advice is platinum, so I'm pretty damn sure it will work for him too.)
Ofcourse I've been warp prism harassed, but it sounds more scary than it is, it's all about good preparation. It can do damage, but I deal with it pretty well I'd say, most of the time.
I've had my thors deal with double the amount of VR's at least, but if you say so, it's probably right! I did say that going vikings or marines is a good alternative, just that I prefer my way, cuz they actually contribute to my anti-ground army.
Judging by the rest you say, I'd say you need to work on your micro and positioning, but ofcourse, I'm lower rated than you and play a retarded style, so you'll probably disagree even tho it would help you. Keep flaming me, it only makes you look like a douchebag bro.
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Judging by the rest you say, I'd say you need to work on your micro and positioning, but ofcourse, I'm lower rated than you and play a retarded style, so you'll probably disagree even tho it would help you. Keep flaming me, it only makes you look like a douchebag bro.
Or it just gets old seeing people suggest stupid things to people who won't have the control to even make something like that work. It why I never suggest any mech style to anyone, really at all. It's a feel thing, and truely honestly will not work forever. It's very very gimmicky, which is why I play it so aggressively with mass blue flames and drops and run bys everywhere to let me get a hold with tank thor marine bunker pushes.
I'm done trolling for now. To OP, I do not suggest mech to someone at your level. The fact of getting TO the mech, and knowing when and where to attack, and slow hopping tanks, etc is a bit difficult. I cannot do it, which is why I mass hellions to equalize econ to let me get a lead that way.
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On July 04 2011 00:41 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 00:38 Hider wrote:
Iamjeffrey:
Most toss dont have experience with mech, so most likely they dont know what they are doing. And now you playing against high masters (there arent any 1900 grand masters out there).
So please learn the difference between winning with a build and the long-term sustainibilty of a build.
And since you try to validate your arguments indirectly by refering to your rank as high masters I can inform you that I am higher ranked on both servers than you. Odd, because I do seem to win multiple games against the same person using the same build just by changing to what they do. Odd. And I said 1900 masters, not grandmasters, friend. And if that's the case, I don't think anyone would suggest THORS vs VRs, at all. Vikings are a much better option. Camp near thors, and kite VRs into thors, maybe. But thors vs VRs is just asking for him to just over run you. But then you play a slow turtle puss style, and I play 115% aggressive in every sense and way
I never said I was higher than you in the ladder, I wrote my rating in the very first post too, nor do I put as much weight on the ladder as you do.
Youre pretty much pointless to argue with, cause you present absolutely no facts, just state complete bullshit and call people names. I may also disagree with Hider, but you don't exactly convince people any more than him with the way you talk.
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On July 04 2011 00:45 iAmJeffReY wrote:
I'm done trolling for now. To OP, I do not suggest mech to someone at your level. The fact of getting TO the mech, and knowing when and where to attack, and slow hopping tanks, etc is a bit difficult. I cannot do it, which is why I mass hellions to equalize econ to let me get a lead that way.
And this, I actually agree with, but he asked if anyone had a nice way to do siege tank builds, and I replied, it's up to him to try it out now, and if it fails for him, he can always go back to bio.
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EPT
