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On June 06 2011 22:28 Kukaracha wrote:Try Synystr's 4 Port build in TvP. Basically a 2 Rax FE, heavy turtling and then mass Banshee play. Harass a little with Banshees, get a 3d, push out. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172190Not hardcore turtle as you move out before max, but pretty turtle-y.
Easily hard countered by... so many builds I'm not going to start naming them.
You can turtle with mech, but you still need to harass with drops or hellions especially v zerg. There is no build where you can just sit back and not not do damage and expect to win at high level.
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Really their isn't a passive style for terran even in Mech. In mech you have to be super drop aggressive or banshee, your choice. And you have to do pdd timing attacks.
Try switching to Protoss. Protosses alot of times turtle turtle turle kill with mass tier 3 collosi. Zerg can be played pretty turtle style. Macro Macro Defend, Macro, attack. Both Protoss and Zerg have strong late games, which award lategame situations, which turtling brings you to.
On June 07 2011 09:13 starcraft911 wrote:Easily hard countered by... so many builds I'm not going to start naming them. You can turtle with mech, but you still need to harass with drops or hellions especially v zerg. There is no build where you can just sit back and not not do damage and expect to win at high level.
Pretty much. If you want to turtle switch races. Or play Age of Empires and be a dick and turtle with mass siege and 8 layer fortified walls
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On June 07 2011 09:24 GinDo wrote:
Really their isn't a passive style for terran even in Mech. In mech you have to be super drop aggressive or banshee, your choice. And you have to do pdd timing attacks.
Try switching to Protoss. Protosses alot of times turtle turtle turle kill with mass tier 3 collosi. Zerg can be played pretty turtle style. Macro Macro Defend, Macro, attack. Both Protoss and Zerg have strong late games, which award lategame situations, which turtling brings you to.
Agree^^
Unless they fix mech and make it viable. MMM+G+V will keep being standard. The problem I believe that alot of players run into is that while the composition of MMMGV vs Collsi+gate is pretty balanced, Its harder to always be the aggresor, you have to create the opening, you have to do a ton of micro with MMM it is so hard to preactically stutter step an entire game, while keeping macro flowing. Protoss is more in the habit of defend and attack when you know you can killl him. I feel that with T its more of, I neccesarily cant kill him but if I can attack this weak point I can work a huge advantage, It is very hard without korean APM to pull this off conistently and effectively. I thik thats why we see so many players complaining about P from the masters league. They are good players, but they do not have the skill to really play TvP like Thorzain and other top guys.
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From what I've seen, you can play mech defensive and expand slowly (so you can defend your expos) or you can go for more usual styles (marine-tank, etc) and expand more aggressively, but you have to be aggressive with your units.
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I'm fine with harassing. Hell, I love harassing. I just don't like pushing that much lol
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mech -LZ, avilo to name a few
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There *IS* an extremely defensive Terran Late game style where you build planetary fortresses, turrets, everywhere to cut the map in half, and then you basically whittle down your opponent until his half of the map has no more resources.
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On June 08 2011 01:14 ScythedBlade wrote:
There *IS* an extremely defensive Terran Late game style where you build planetary fortresses, turrets, everywhere to cut the map in half, and then you basically whittle down your opponent until his half of the map has no more resources.
Wouldn't your own side of the map, in most cases, mine out first, because of mules?
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On June 07 2011 09:13 starcraft911 wrote:Easily hard countered by... so many builds I'm not going to start naming them. You can turtle with mech, but you still need to harass with drops or hellions especially v zerg. There is no build where you can just sit back and not not do damage and expect to win at high level.
Mass air is having a great success on the ladder, I personnally get 100% success in NA top Diamond with this - which is not much but the 100% rate is significant. There is no "hard counter" when you have the economic advantage and when the Toss' survival relies on his obs.
But I would agree that 2 builds are hard to deal with doing this opening: 3Gate Robo push with an Immortal, and 3Gate Stargate, as an early Stargate tech denies Terran air pretty hard.
It's too easy to say "it's hard-counterable" and not backing it up with anything at all.
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On June 08 2011 01:16 Bluedraqy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 01:14 ScythedBlade wrote:
There *IS* an extremely defensive Terran Late game style where you build planetary fortresses, turrets, everywhere to cut the map in half, and then you basically whittle down your opponent until his half of the map has no more resources. Wouldn't your own side of the map, in most cases, mine out first, because of mules?
Terran units are crazy cost-effective. *ALL* of your units can always be healed to full health whether with energy or with resources. And Tanks, Thors do amazing splash, and Planetary Fortresses help. Basically, with your units, kill off waves of your opponent until he mines out his half and runs out of resources.
Basically, you'll have stockpiled a huge amount of resources.
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Based on my experience (low-mid master) Turtling can be beneficial in TvZ and TvP, however there must be either supplemental scouting or supplemental harassment along with turtling.
TvZ: Turtle with supplemental harassment. Because an un-bothered Zerg will drone up, take half the map, and then replenish its 200 food army seemingly nonstop, the Zerg must be prevented. I find Turtling to be effective TvZ ONLY when I use drops or harassment. My preference is to go 1 Rax FE into 2 Fac (and then add on Rax or Fac depending on where the game goes.) Out of those 2 fac, I get 6+ hellion as soon as I can, take map control, poke and prod the Zerg expo. Don't lose those hellions at all cost. Instead, patrol around the map, snipe any units you can find, and if you see an opportunity roast some drones. If the Zerg takes a quick third (like before 10 minutes) you should easily be able to punish it by pushing out. As you do this, continue to macro a mech army. Hellions are the best aggressor TvZ I feel.
TvP: Turtle with supplemental scouting. While you don't need to worry about Protoss taking half the map, you do need to worry about certain Protoss "armies of death." They can contain, and not be limited to, Immortal, Colossus, Phoenix, Void Ray, DT, HT. Some, or even all. Terran needs the appropriate counters for each. While you don't need to harass, you need to constantly send in marines or SCV to check out the army composition. Scan around the main to see what structures he is producing out of. From there, you can make a counter-army.
However, I don't like turtling in TvP. I find constant pressure to be key to keep his army low. Protoss armies are most effective when the damage-dealers like Colossus reach 3+. Before then, their damage is limited and they are more easily sniped.
Really, the only time I turtle hardcore is TvZ. But I never do so without harassment. Without it, you're likely to kill his main army but be slaughtered by an incessant stream of reinforcements.
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Go watch replays of "Goody".
He plays Mech only with Terran in every Match and Match-up.
Won already many cups and could defeat "Nestea" at TSL.
He often goes for some kind of early Harras to have a little advantage and then just makros of 2 and a late 3rd base till he has 200/200 and then pushes out.
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Regarding goodys mechanics (especially macro and multitasking)in comparison to his results he's probably the best player worldwide, seriously.
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I am just a zerg player, but when I use terran I like to get 4 OCs when I'm still on 2 bases. Mules are super powerful. plus you always have a scan in the back pocket when you need one. and they provide 10 supply. 550 minerals is a lot, but then, even if you mine out, you're still in the game because you can lift one to the golds and drop 12 mules on it and watch your minerals skyrocket to 3000.
Probably best to play heavy bio with this strat because you'll be flooded with minerals but a little short on gas. definitely best to pump out a few tanks for D before you switch totally to medivacs. remember that if it's z, with good spread you can just make him waste all his banelings on your rines, and by the time he's rebuilt you have twice as many rines as the last time, 'cause your mineral income will be so much higher than it's even possible for his to be (unless he had like 80 workers and a golds). People say that zerg econ is stronger, but there's a lot more nuance to it than that. Terran can mint minerals like it's nothing without using any supply, and the defensive posture allows them to get the extra OCs up to do this. zerg's economic strengths come more in the form of faster initial saturation, and a higher likelihood of being +2 geysers on the other race. But honestly trying to play big macro with zerg T 1-1.5, I've found you just can't get enough minerals even on 3 base to fight a terran making marines only.
not sure if this stuff would work very far into diamond league, but plat and below it's really not that hard to get away with screwy shit like this. **of course, getting to the point where you're close enough to even and on 2 bases with require either a ballsy FE or a rush to keep the zerg from making drones only. Also be as active as you can about denying the 3rd, without committing your whole army.
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EPT
