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XDJuicebox
United States593 Posts
Is there a style of Terran I can play that relies heavily on mass expanding and turtling, using a combination of static and cost effective-mobile defense? Or maybe a style that relies on really dumb harass (like reapers) to keep the pinned back while I mass expand and then just destroy them later? Appreciate the help :D | ||
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Strat4lyfe
Singapore133 Posts
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arto
United States59 Posts
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WarSame
Canada1950 Posts
Here is a quick example: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/+1_Mech_(vs._Protoss) Works on maps like Shakuras, etc. | ||
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userstupidname
Sweden272 Posts
So it will come down to tank/marine play with ton of marine agressiveness outside your wall. Or you can just have them all idle and go up to 200 but theres no meaning in that :/ Tips on gamers utilizing styles you talk about: Goody - One of the few (in my opinon) who does very good playing passively with nearly only tank play. | ||
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XDJuicebox
United States593 Posts
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Tweleve
United States644 Posts
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gejfsyd
Poland156 Posts
You can also play standard vs protoss and terran. Terran 200/200 MMMVG army can beat a 200 protoss army. Harassment is nice but not obligatory. Against zerg you must be agressive, unless you mech. Zerg can get too good eco too quickly if you left him unprerssured and terran 200 army dosent really do too well vs maxed zerg. | ||
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XDJuicebox
United States593 Posts
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naventus
United States1337 Posts
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peppilepew
93 Posts
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Ascendance
United States57 Posts
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imbecile
563 Posts
Here a replay. So, you will notice I'm silver, which means lots of bad execution on both sides. But here the reasoning behind it: It's tank marine medivac with a twist, namely nukes and vikings. I don't really do early harrass. I probably could, but I'm lazy and I like to play to relax. But that means zerg will get a big economy lead. That needs to be counteracted. That's what the vikings and nukes do. I'm getting Vikings pretty quickly. They hunt overlords and overseers pretty much on autopilot, denying him scouting and giving good scouting for you. And if the opportunity presents itself, you can put them behind a mineral line for good damage. In the replay I forget to really use my vikings later on. Could have been so much more effective. Supply blocking your opponent is good. Making him waste larva is good too. But Vikings alone isn't enough. They just give you opportunities. For drops for example. Which worked quite well in the game. The real hurt comes with the nukes though. Why does it work? No zerg gets spores against tank marine medivac and a few vikings. Most zerg tend to not use overseers too, even less if Vikings are on the field. You can just freely walk your ghosts around in cloak. You target the larva and eggs at the hatcheries, and always try to strike in multiple locations at once. Even if you don't kill any drones and structures, you will kill larva and eggs and most likely queens. Which means you will starve him of larva. Especially nasty when he does the larva intensive muta/bling style. It not only does big big damage to the zerg, it also sets him into panic mode and forces him to do very much at once for very little effort of yourself. The perfect opportunities to advance your armies etc. The big winning factor is the larva harrass. My opponent has thousands of resources, but can't spend them. He has a big army, but can't really attack into my defenses, and doesn't really dare, because he's mostly blind. And then there is also this constant threat of nukes, which oins him back and keeps him occupied. | ||
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IzieBoy
United States865 Posts
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
On June 06 2011 03:52 naventus wrote: Goody's style is really not that good. Have you seen him post any good results against top players? Yet he's still better than 99.9% of the people here. | ||
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IzieBoy
United States865 Posts
On June 06 2011 20:17 guitarizt wrote: Yet he's still better than 99.9% of the people here. lol so true | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
On June 06 2011 03:52 naventus wrote: Goody's style is really not that good. Have you seen him post any good results against top players? I've seen quite some, he's ranked around 2 in GM so I believe he faces good players all the time. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On June 06 2011 03:03 arto wrote: As terran you really cannot turtle (without harrasing) because Terran has slower worker production. If you do not attack Z they will out macro you due to larva mechanics. Maybe versus protoss you can get away with it but the power of the deathball late game and Chrono early game letting them macro freely is bound to turn out poorly more often then not. For TvZ, there's no real Terran army that can take out multiple waves of zerg max armies like in BW. Additional factory armies are fairly easily countered by baby throwers and Zerg plowing into it properly with neural and lots of roaches and lings. Its not like in BW where the most common guardian build is that you make guardians (which were like slightly worse Broodlords) and lose the game because you wasted money on guardians. | ||
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Ragoo
Germany2773 Posts
On June 06 2011 03:52 naventus wrote: Goody's style is really not that good. Have you seen him post any good results against top players? It is very good, it's just very unique and very passive so other players aren't patient enough to play/train it. But people actually start to play his mech style with tank+hellion in tvt now. That Goody loses so much recently is probably because his mechanics are beyond horrible plus the fact that I don't think he ever found a stable TvP mech style. | ||
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Kukaracha
France1954 Posts
Basically a 2 Rax FE, heavy turtling and then mass Banshee play. Harass a little with Banshees, get a 3d, push out. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172190 Not hardcore turtle as you move out before max, but pretty turtle-y. | ||
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Gantritor
Italy112 Posts
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Dinosaur
Denmark112 Posts
On June 06 2011 03:52 naventus wrote: Goody's style is really not that good. Have you seen him post any good results against top players? Besides beating Strelok, Cloud, Brat_Ok, Fayth, Happy, Kas, Sjow, Sase, Avilo, DDE, Nestea and taking games from Naniwa, Morrow, Socke, Dimaga, Demuslim, Hasuobs and Select, no not really ... I guess his style sucks. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On June 06 2011 22:22 Ragoo wrote: It is very good, it's just very unique and very passive so other players aren't patient enough to play/train it. But people actually start to play his mech style with tank+hellion in tvt now. That Goody loses so much recently is probably because his mechanics are beyond horrible plus the fact that I don't think he ever found a stable TvP mech style. The last Goody game I actually remember involves his tank army getting chased across the map into a corner by 6 broodlords. :\ | ||
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ComaDose
Canada10357 Posts
TANKS People are saying when you unseige and move out you will get crushed. but if your going for this you need a slower "push" leapfrogging your tanks etc. I don't understand why terrans dont build turrets in their tank lines anymore. Really helps hold position against zergs. But yeah, go tanks sink your extra mins into riens or hellions which you can use to drop harass to keep the game frisky and then slowly take your 3rd/4th while your tank wall grows and just never let it break. Eventually the tank wall will reach your opponent. | ||
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Ragoo
Germany2773 Posts
On June 06 2011 22:48 Dinosaur wrote: Besides beating Strelok, Cloud, Brat_Ok, Fayth, Happy, Kas, Sjow, Sase, Avilo, DDE, Nestea and taking games from Naniwa, Morrow, Socke, Dimaga, Demuslim, Hasuobs and Select, not not really ... I guess his style sucks. He actually beat at least Socke, Dimaga, Hasuobs and Morrow in at least one boX and was in more than 50% of the weekly cup finals for some weeks. His TvT record at that time was nearly 100% in tournaments. As the game evolves he will probably be worse if he doesn't improve his mechanics. He is still a tactical genius and super patient tho ^^ If mech in TvP becomes viable in the future Goody might become very solid overall  | ||
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NoisyNinja
United States991 Posts
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.Mthex-
United States168 Posts
its how you utilize the turtle that will matter-- you honestly should try to poke out with cloaked banshees as often as you can, or blue flame hellion drops. You just want to maintain some sort of *poke* harass. | ||
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cilinder007
Slovenia7251 Posts
On June 06 2011 03:52 naventus wrote: Goody's style is really not that good. Have you seen him post any good results against top players? yes he beat nestea.... so his style does work even at the highest level | ||
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Leaky
United States176 Posts
Tanks are pretty awful in TvP past the early midgame though, because they are too supply costly, and because protoss units can soak up a lot of tank hits before going down. Pure thor/hellion can be pretty effective even after the thor nerf, but you'll need ghosts to EMP high templars & immortals. It's hard to say if TvP mech is truly viable though, since the protoss can mass a much more cost efficient deathball that is more mobile than terran mech. Players like Goody can make it work sometimes, but I've seen high level protosses such as Hasuobs and Naniwa rip apart Goody's style with ease when they know it's coming. | ||
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elitesniper420
Canada135 Posts
On June 06 2011 20:17 guitarizt wrote: Yet he's still better than 99.9% of the people here. Oh wow someone who plays this game for a living and is a on whole different level is better than most people here????? what a surprise! anyway, OP, in ZvT Terran can ALWAYS play defensively. Tanks are the best defense unit in the game and you also use them to attack. That's why Marine / Tank is so popular. What you do is start with something like 2rax or reactor hellion expand and then switch to tank tech. With well placed turrets and your marines you can shut down Mutas while your tanks will mean any ling / baneling attack is absolute suicide. Get upgrades, mass up units, etc, and move out constantly to pressure the Zerg while back home you'll be perfectly safe as more and more tanks/marines produce. Keep taking expansions after pressure and if you delay the drone count of the Zerg you've already won the game. | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
On June 07 2011 04:12 NoisyNinja wrote: Regardless of race, if I see a turtle, i mass expand, enter macro mode, build up and then steam roll you. Except in Soviet Russia the turtler steamrolls you! Anyway, is there any counterpart to mass turtle for protoss? | ||
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Antylamon
United States1981 Posts
On June 06 2011 03:03 arto wrote: As terran you really cannot turtle (without harrasing) because Terran has slower worker production. If you do not attack Z they will out macro you due to larva mechanics. Maybe versus protoss you can get away with it but the power of the deathball late game and Chrono early game letting them macro freely is bound to turn out poorly more often then not. Mules are worth 8 workers if I recall correctly, and one OC can constantly call down mules if it isn't using any scans. It doesn't count in worker saturation as well, so the mule evens out the economy for Terrans. Because of Mules, Terrans have the strongest late game imo because you can just make 10 OCs just for mules and kill off all your SCVs to get a real 200/200 army. | ||
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genius_man16
United States749 Posts
On June 06 2011 03:52 naventus wrote: Goody's style is really not that good. Have you seen him post any good results against top players? He beat Nestea, probably the best player in the world right now, is that not good enough? Part of the reason he is "not so good" is because he has pretty bad mechanics and multitasking abilities. He has a pretty low APM (like ~100 maybe) so if someone does a good job making him react to multiple things he crashes pretty hard. I think Goody's style is destined to be the future of TvZ, because it's much more stable when done correctly and doesn't require you to walk on eggshells vs banelings. The problem is most pro's haven't really gotten away from the marine/tank shenanigans. Edit: To answer the OP's question I would suggest Goody's mech style. Or perhaps try to be a little like a protoss and get 3 bases up and then make a deathpush at 200/200. The problem with doing that vs zerg is generally the deathpush involves a lot of marines, so if the zerg got quick infestors or you mess up your micro vs banelings then it can get shut down pretty easily. | ||
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elitesniper420
Canada135 Posts
On June 07 2011 07:31 eYeball wrote: Except in Soviet Russia the turtler steamrolls you! Anyway, is there any counterpart to mass turtle for protoss? Yes, it's called cannons + forcefields | ||
Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
On June 06 2011 03:05 Peterblue wrote: Not in TvZ. Mech in TvZ, especially on Xel'Naga Caverns, is strong. Once you get to your gold you just have to watch your flank, watch for drops, and not miss the transition to Brood Lords. If you get a 4th base it's super hard for Zerg. This is at Masters, I don't know wtf is happening above that. | ||
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elitesniper420
Canada135 Posts
On June 07 2011 07:37 genius_man16 wrote: He beat Nestea, probably the best player in the world right now, is that not good enough? It isn't when he aclicks his entire roach/bane army into his army. That series was incredibly awful. As for future of "ZvT", remember when tanks did 50 damage against light (probably not)? All Terran did was go Mech, but now with the nerf it has so many weaknesses you only really see it done in Diamond League. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
i tend to turtle when i'm going for tank focused army (marine/tank) or other tech focued route like banshee and thor, or something i've been doing a lot lately for fun, 1rax3oc. since i would get eaten up with only 1 or 2 tanks and handful of marines against zerg/protoss, i tend to turtle until i have a good size army to maximize my damage and move out. if not, i'd have two dropships with 2 tanks and 8 marines to drop at a cliff/isolated area like in tal darim and lost temple or two dropships full of marine and few marauder to take out key buildings and upcoming expansions. on the other hand i like to move out early with handful of units against terran if there is an opening to siege up and cause a little damage or delay his/her 1st expansion. | ||
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-UMADIMSTYLIN-
Cuba292 Posts
Unit comp is mostly tank/helion/viking ghost. Any good protoss though will know how to abuse your immobility once you're trying to protect 3/4 bases (want spidermines) : (. Anyways its a lot more fun to play then bio and if anyone cares, 1200 master terran | ||
CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
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codonbyte
United States840 Posts
You could try to do a marine drop, but if it gets killed (which is likely if mutas are out), you've lost 500/100 (8 marines plus one medivac). Alternatively, for the cost of one EMPTY medivac, you can make a zerg player (or any player) believe that one of their bases is in imminent danger. The "Nuclear Launch Detected" warning that zerg will receive upon the nuke's launch is extremely disruptive, especially late game. I mean, think about it: you're a zerg player with 4+ bases, and now all of a sudden you have to drop everything you're doing and look in every base for the little red dot. Obviously, zerg can't really be doing any fancy micro while he's looking for the dot. Heck, it might even be worth 100/100 just to make zerg hear the warning, even if there's actually no chance that any of his stuff will get nuked. Mutas trashing your base? Launch a nuke on some random part of the map that zerg doesn't have vision of. He'll have to drop everything and look in each of his bases for the dot. He'll probably have to double or triple check, since he obviously won't find it. All the while, he can't be microing his mutas. | ||
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
On June 06 2011 22:28 Kukaracha wrote: Try Synystr's 4 Port build in TvP. Basically a 2 Rax FE, heavy turtling and then mass Banshee play. Harass a little with Banshees, get a 3d, push out. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172190 Not hardcore turtle as you move out before max, but pretty turtle-y. Easily hard countered by... so many builds I'm not going to start naming them. You can turtle with mech, but you still need to harass with drops or hellions especially v zerg. There is no build where you can just sit back and not not do damage and expect to win at high level. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
Try switching to Protoss. Protosses alot of times turtle turtle turle kill with mass tier 3 collosi. Zerg can be played pretty turtle style. Macro Macro Defend, Macro, attack. Both Protoss and Zerg have strong late games, which award lategame situations, which turtling brings you to. On June 07 2011 09:13 starcraft911 wrote: Easily hard countered by... so many builds I'm not going to start naming them. You can turtle with mech, but you still need to harass with drops or hellions especially v zerg. There is no build where you can just sit back and not not do damage and expect to win at high level. Pretty much. If you want to turtle switch races. Or play Age of Empires and be a dick and turtle with mass siege and 8 layer fortified walls | ||
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
On June 07 2011 09:24 GinDo wrote: Really their isn't a passive style for terran even in Mech. In mech you have to be super drop aggressive or banshee, your choice. And you have to do pdd timing attacks. Try switching to Protoss. Protosses alot of times turtle turtle turle kill with mass tier 3 collosi. Zerg can be played pretty turtle style. Macro Macro Defend, Macro, attack. Both Protoss and Zerg have strong late games, which award lategame situations, which turtling brings you to. Agree^^ Unless they fix mech and make it viable. MMM+G+V will keep being standard. The problem I believe that alot of players run into is that while the composition of MMMGV vs Collsi+gate is pretty balanced, Its harder to always be the aggresor, you have to create the opening, you have to do a ton of micro with MMM it is so hard to preactically stutter step an entire game, while keeping macro flowing. Protoss is more in the habit of defend and attack when you know you can killl him. I feel that with T its more of, I neccesarily cant kill him but if I can attack this weak point I can work a huge advantage, It is very hard without korean APM to pull this off conistently and effectively. I thik thats why we see so many players complaining about P from the masters league. They are good players, but they do not have the skill to really play TvP like Thorzain and other top guys. | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
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XDJuicebox
United States593 Posts
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ROOTIllusion
United States1060 Posts
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ScythedBlade
308 Posts
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Bluedraqy
Denmark496 Posts
On June 08 2011 01:14 ScythedBlade wrote: There *IS* an extremely defensive Terran Late game style where you build planetary fortresses, turrets, everywhere to cut the map in half, and then you basically whittle down your opponent until his half of the map has no more resources. Wouldn't your own side of the map, in most cases, mine out first, because of mules? | ||
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Kukaracha
France1954 Posts
On June 07 2011 09:13 starcraft911 wrote: Easily hard countered by... so many builds I'm not going to start naming them. You can turtle with mech, but you still need to harass with drops or hellions especially v zerg. There is no build where you can just sit back and not not do damage and expect to win at high level. Mass air is having a great success on the ladder, I personnally get 100% success in NA top Diamond with this - which is not much but the 100% rate is significant. There is no "hard counter" when you have the economic advantage and when the Toss' survival relies on his obs. But I would agree that 2 builds are hard to deal with doing this opening: 3Gate Robo push with an Immortal, and 3Gate Stargate, as an early Stargate tech denies Terran air pretty hard. It's too easy to say "it's hard-counterable" and not backing it up with anything at all. | ||
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ScythedBlade
308 Posts
On June 08 2011 01:16 Bluedraqy wrote: Wouldn't your own side of the map, in most cases, mine out first, because of mules? Terran units are crazy cost-effective. *ALL* of your units can always be healed to full health whether with energy or with resources. And Tanks, Thors do amazing splash, and Planetary Fortresses help. Basically, with your units, kill off waves of your opponent until he mines out his half and runs out of resources. Basically, you'll have stockpiled a huge amount of resources. | ||
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RukKus
United States197 Posts
TvZ: Turtle with supplemental harassment. Because an un-bothered Zerg will drone up, take half the map, and then replenish its 200 food army seemingly nonstop, the Zerg must be prevented. I find Turtling to be effective TvZ ONLY when I use drops or harassment. My preference is to go 1 Rax FE into 2 Fac (and then add on Rax or Fac depending on where the game goes.) Out of those 2 fac, I get 6+ hellion as soon as I can, take map control, poke and prod the Zerg expo. Don't lose those hellions at all cost. Instead, patrol around the map, snipe any units you can find, and if you see an opportunity roast some drones. If the Zerg takes a quick third (like before 10 minutes) you should easily be able to punish it by pushing out. As you do this, continue to macro a mech army. Hellions are the best aggressor TvZ I feel. TvP: Turtle with supplemental scouting. While you don't need to worry about Protoss taking half the map, you do need to worry about certain Protoss "armies of death." They can contain, and not be limited to, Immortal, Colossus, Phoenix, Void Ray, DT, HT. Some, or even all. Terran needs the appropriate counters for each. While you don't need to harass, you need to constantly send in marines or SCV to check out the army composition. Scan around the main to see what structures he is producing out of. From there, you can make a counter-army. However, I don't like turtling in TvP. I find constant pressure to be key to keep his army low. Protoss armies are most effective when the damage-dealers like Colossus reach 3+. Before then, their damage is limited and they are more easily sniped. Really, the only time I turtle hardcore is TvZ. But I never do so without harassment. Without it, you're likely to kill his main army but be slaughtered by an incessant stream of reinforcements. | ||
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HarryKlein
Germany220 Posts
He plays Mech only with Terran in every Match and Match-up. Won already many cups and could defeat "Nestea" at TSL. He often goes for some kind of early Harras to have a little advantage and then just makros of 2 and a late 3rd base till he has 200/200 and then pushes out. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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Danger-dog
United States50 Posts
Probably best to play heavy bio with this strat because you'll be flooded with minerals but a little short on gas. definitely best to pump out a few tanks for D before you switch totally to medivacs. remember that if it's z, with good spread you can just make him waste all his banelings on your rines, and by the time he's rebuilt you have twice as many rines as the last time, 'cause your mineral income will be so much higher than it's even possible for his to be (unless he had like 80 workers and a golds). People say that zerg econ is stronger, but there's a lot more nuance to it than that. Terran can mint minerals like it's nothing without using any supply, and the defensive posture allows them to get the extra OCs up to do this. zerg's economic strengths come more in the form of faster initial saturation, and a higher likelihood of being +2 geysers on the other race. But honestly trying to play big macro with zerg T 1-1.5, I've found you just can't get enough minerals even on 3 base to fight a terran making marines only. not sure if this stuff would work very far into diamond league, but plat and below it's really not that hard to get away with screwy shit like this. **of course, getting to the point where you're close enough to even and on 2 bases with require either a ballsy FE or a rush to keep the zerg from making drones only. Also be as active as you can about denying the 3rd, without committing your whole army. | ||
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