EPTAnyways, this build is almost impossible to stop as Protoss if not scouted. Quick question, does an economic 2 gate (e.g. 12/14) put an end to this build if you pull off probes along with it? You should have at least a few Zealots, with Probes trying to surround the marines while your Zealots kill them and the SCVs. Never actually tried it, but does it work?
[G] (T) 3 racks : Cheesing your way to GM league - Page 24
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epikAnglory
United States1120 Posts
Anyways, this build is almost impossible to stop as Protoss if not scouted. Quick question, does an economic 2 gate (e.g. 12/14) put an end to this build if you pull off probes along with it? You should have at least a few Zealots, with Probes trying to surround the marines while your Zealots kill them and the SCVs. Never actually tried it, but does it work? | ||
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eXtremophiLe
United States22 Posts
On May 16 2011 10:57 SwatRaven wrote: SVC's are not really OP, but I do believe they're almost balanced with Probes and Drones, although they have no regen so they are the worst of the 3 in my opinion. :D Only a small point here, SCVs actually do have a regen ability of sorts--they can repair each other. I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine kind of deal :-/ | ||
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
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LovE-
United States1963 Posts
Turns out I was doing it wrong though, I was waiting until I had 15 marines and 12 scvs before attacking... | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
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z0mghii
United States15 Posts
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Blackjackbob
Canada164 Posts
Don't waste your time on this build with the hopes of getting to what the OP said would be GM. It won't happen for you, just learn to play the game for real and be proud that you can use some skill, not just cheese to accomplish your goals. | ||
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Amalaxi
United States180 Posts
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Zurachi
Canada289 Posts
Otherwise, EVERYONE is doing this on ladder. It's not going to be as effective because of how common it has become... everyone's pretty much learned how to react correctively to it. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13394 Posts
On May 18 2011 12:59 ElPokemono wrote: I just tried this 7 times to put it to the test and went 3-4. Though, keep in mind the losses were super hard blind counters or terrans doing the exact same thing. I can see how ridiculously hard it is to stop as a protoss though, it's kind of dumb. Otherwise, EVERYONE is doing this on ladder. It's not going to be as effective because of how common it has become... everyone's pretty much learned how to react correctively to it. Really? In about 7 or 8 PvTs these past few days I haven't played against this strat more than once in diamond league :/ | ||
PR4Y
United States260 Posts
On May 18 2011 07:53 Blackman wrote: The solution to what I'm saying is gauging exactly how many units you need to build based on what they build. They completely control how you play what you need to do, and if you don't respond correctly, they win. The zerg needs superior scouting skills, to actually beat an allin terran. I'm already stating what needs to be done to beat them, what I am trying to articulate is that the amount of skill required by the zerg to beat these terran players is so much higher, purely because they are always on the defensive. The disparity of wins to losses from obscure, cheesy terran openings is much higher than you put it, obviously terrans don't win 100% of the time. You completely understate the disparity between the amount of cheese that zerg has compared to other races. I am not saying cheese is a bad thing, I am saying that the amount of cheeses/allins available to the other races compared to zerg is ridiculous. Protoss: Proxy 2 gate 2 Gate pressure Fast dts Fast sg Cannon rush (even just an expo cannon rush) Warp prism harass 4 gate Terran: Marauder Hellion Timing Blue flame Marine Marine Hellion Scv marine allin 6 rax marine allin (TLO) 2/3 rax bunker rush cheese Tank hellion marine timing push Fast banshee Fast drop Zerg: 3/5/7 rr 6/7/8/9/10 pool baneling bust speedling allin roach ling allin Half of these allins only apply to zvz (from an effectiveness standpoint) The only thing that is actually available to zerg to pressure a terran without completely flipping a coin is baneling bust and a 5/7 roach rush. and all the terran has to do to stop these is either a) build a couple more supply depots behind their block to stop baneling bust b) build a bunker an make marauders to stop roaches. Terran can pull back at any time from an allin (with the exception of an allin that includes bringing all scvs like this one) if they feel they are losing much easier than a zerg can. There is no bunker, pf, simcity, block, etc. for a zerg to fall back on. You are grossly exaggerating the use of the word, "Cheese"... I'll fix that list for you, real quick: + Show Spoiler + Revised "Cheese" list Protoss: Proxy 2 gate - Risk / Reward (Risking losing the game for the reward of bad scouting from opponent) 2 Gate pressure - Since when is PRESSURE considered cheese? Forreal? Fast dts - Using a unit given to your race.... pure cheese. *sarcasm* Fast sg - anything but colossus rushing? must be cheese! Cannon rush (even just an expo cannon rush) - I was OK with this being labeled as cheese, until you tried saying that a Forge Expand is cheese? Come on man, seriously? Warp prism harass - Key word = Harass... Harassment isn't cheese dude, get a clue. 4 gate - If you cut probes at 17-19, then this is an all-in... not cheese, all-in. Terran: Marauder Hellion Timing - Pro-Tip #1: In Real-TIME strategy games, TIMING strategies are used. Get used to it. Blue flame Marine - We are calling upgrades and tier 1 units cheese now? Marine Hellion - Are you simply creatively impaired? Scv marine allin - You said it yourself, ALL-IN. 6 rax marine allin (TLO) - easily scoutable, and completely all-in. 2/3 rax bunker rush cheese - Bunkers are built. People build them. People also stop them from ending the game. If you lose to a bunker rush, you didn't play correctly. Not cheese. Tank hellion marine timing push - See Also: "Marauder Hellion Timing" Fast banshee - Once again, using units that are at your disposal is not cheese... Fast drop - For the love of god, drops are SOOOOO OP!!!! Zerg: 3/5/7 rr - Risk / Reward... sacrificing early economy to be aggressive early on... Completely defend-able. 6/7/8/9/10 pool - So now if you get a pool at anything other then 14/15, it's cheese? Honestly, some people use early pool just as a counter-early pool build... 6/7pool are the only builds to be considered even "slightly" cheesey. 8pool doesn't even exist to my knowledge, as it's so inefficient. baneling bust - Back to Risk / Reward... good players can see this coming and react accordingly. speedling allin roach ling allin I'm not even going to comment on the speedling/roach allin cheese declarations, as they are clearly no more then what you said they are, all-in. Did I get my point across here? You are abusing an already over-used word and making it seem like every viable strategy can be viewed as cheese. This isn't the B.Net forums here, man... if you want to whine about how terrible zerg is there are other, more suitable places, to do so. Stop trolling and make some useful suggestions. Troll Rating: 0/10 | ||
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
On May 18 2011 08:00 VynsticusSC2 wrote: The build is entirely adjustable. Example: I can make the army smaller and have the last Marine out at 4:50. The army would then be 13 SCVs, 14 Marines. 9 Supply Depot 10 Barracks (Naked) 10 Barracks (Naked) 11 Marine 12 Barracks (Naked) 12 Marine 13 Marine 14 Marine 15 Marine 16 Marine 17 Supply Depot 17 Marine 18 Marine 19 Marine 20 Marine 21 Marine 23 Marine 24 Marine 25 Marine Still think that would be more of a threat than the build the topic is about. The problem with doing a 10 rax is that it makes it obvious what you're doing. With the 10 depot 12 rax you're literally doing the standard opener as far as they can tell. I don't actually use the cheese, however, in TvZ i started building below my ramp to make them think I was doing it to get them to overcommit to lings which lets my hellions do terrible terrible damage. Also walling on the bottom isn't so bad because you can double wall for banelings if the z goes all in baneling off 1 base thinking you're going to cheese.. | ||
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apalemorning
Canada509 Posts
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dschneid
United States101 Posts
Personally I think there is a lot of potential here to start building at the bottom of one's ramp, and fool the other person into thinking a cheese is coming, meanwhile teching all the way... | ||
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DaemonX
545 Posts
Thoroughly tested this build (over 100 games), and it's really not that good. I don't know how you guys are picking up games with it; and beating pros - well, you are just meta-gaming them out, because if they're playing safe noone above platinum will die to this. 1) Terran hard counters it with...a bunker. Really nothing more to say. Half terran builds have a bunker up before 5 mins, half of the rest will have one down when they see a low wall and fast rax. The only way I could die as terran was not to repair - even tech openings are safe. 2) Tested this extensively both on ladder and with prac partner. Zerg doesn't lose to this unless he's being lazy or greedy. Zerg deals with it because nearly all pool first builds get speed up by 5:05-5:10. When speed gets up your attack ball dies instantly unless zerg threw away his lings. You can avoid engaging and take out one of his bases, but zerg just needs to start macroing at the other base and he auto-wins. Then tested hatch first. It kills hatch-first 100% if there's no spine crawler. But long story short - if zerg drops a blind sunken and has semi-decent micro (but no other over-commitment whatsoever), you can't break a hatch first zerg due to having creep down at his natural so much sooner. Sure you can kill a base, but that isn't enough to put you ahead even if most of your scvs are still alive and you go home. Zerg just doesn't lose to this once they practice against it once or twice. 99% of zergs are dropping blind sunkens on ladder atm. Sorry Mondragon, you were being very bad. If you doubt me, msg me and ill hook you up with my practice partner. He will crush this with 0-2 pre-built lings and a full macro opening until the rush is scouted. 3) Protoss dies to it 90% of the time. But this isn't a revelation - it applies almost the exact same pressure and has the exact same timing as a 7RR or 7RR all-in, which likewise kills 90% of protoss on smaller map positions, only because they don't know the correct response. Anway, protoss can beat this play with the exact same response as to counter a 7RR all-in - fast cannons w/ wall, or triple chrono sentries, for an auto-win. If you want a silly all-in to walk to master league, roach rushing is far better than this flimsy build. Really disappointed, I thought this was going to be fun. | ||
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Syorm
131 Posts
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PR4Y
United States260 Posts
On May 18 2011 13:20 dschneid wrote: @starcraft911 - just because the person builds the barracks at 10 doesn't mean a scout is going to be able to recognize this. If it's a 4 player map and they don't scout you right away (pretty plausible scenari0) they're just going to see a finished barracks, not knowing when it was actually up. Completely incorrect... Good players can recognize the difference between an 10/12rax almost immediately. It's simply a matter of seeing it before it's complete. This is the reason people scout... to see what builds the opponent is doing. 10rax comes almost a full 30 seconds before a 12rax, so if your game timer shows the rax being WAY more complete then it should be at the standard 12rax, they are doing a questionable build, period. (unless you are in copper league, and timings / builds don't matter) | ||
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NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
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DrakanSilva
Chile932 Posts
and this is why ladder maps aren't at TSL GSL NASL etctera | ||
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LovE-
United States1963 Posts
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