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The solution to what I'm saying is gauging exactly how many units you need to build based on what they build. They completely control how you play what you need to do, and if you don't respond correctly, they win. The zerg needs superior scouting skills, to actually beat an allin terran. I'm already stating what needs to be done to beat them, what I am trying to articulate is that the amount of skill required by the zerg to beat these terran players is so much higher, purely because they are always on the defensive. The disparity of wins to losses from obscure, cheesy terran openings is much higher than you put it, obviously terrans don't win 100% of the time.
You completely understate the disparity between the amount of cheese that zerg has compared to other races. I am not saying cheese is a bad thing, I am saying that the amount of cheeses/allins available to the other races compared to zerg is ridiculous.
Protoss:
Proxy 2 gate
2 Gate pressure
Fast dts
Fast sg
Cannon rush (even just an expo cannon rush)
Warp prism harass
4 gate
Terran:
Marauder Hellion Timing
Blue flame Marine
Marine Hellion
Scv marine allin
6 rax marine allin (TLO)
2/3 rax bunker rush cheese
Tank hellion marine timing push
Fast banshee
Fast drop
Zerg:
3/5/7 rr
6/7/8/9/10 pool
baneling bust
speedling allin
roach ling allin
Half of these allins only apply to zvz (from an effectiveness standpoint)
The only thing that is actually available to zerg to pressure a terran without completely flipping a coin is baneling bust and a 5/7 roach rush.
and all the terran has to do to stop these is either a) build a couple more supply depots behind their block to stop baneling bust b) build a bunker an make marauders to stop roaches.
Terran can pull back at any time from an allin (with the exception of an allin that includes bringing all scvs like this one) if they feel they are losing much easier than a zerg can. There is no bunker, pf, simcity, block, etc. for a zerg to fall back on.
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On May 18 2011 07:51 randplaty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 07:19 VynsticusSC2 wrote:On May 18 2011 07:10 Velladin wrote:On May 18 2011 07:02 VynsticusSC2 wrote:
That's cool and all but what if I have 16 Marines and 18 SCVs? :D You should probably win. I don't usually do this against Terran because if I scout low ground wall off = bunker at the top for me. The build order I use doesn't rely on low-ground wall-off. It's a Marine dedicated build designed to attack with 16 Marines and 18 SCVs. 10 Supply Depot 12 Barracks (Naked) 14 Barracks (Naked) 16 Marine 17 Barracks (Naked) 17 Supply Depot 17 Marine 18 Marine 19 Barracks (Naked) 19 Marine 20 Marine 21 Marine 22 Marine 23 Supply Depot 23 Marine 24 Marine 25 Marine 26 Marine 27 Marine 30 Marine 31 Marine 32 Marine 33 Marine Like that. Usually get the last Marine out at 5:15-5:18. This is probably too slow. The reason the OP's build is tough to beat is because it leaves the base at 4:30 and arrives at your opponent's base at 5:10. Your build is leaving your base at 5:15 and will probably arrive at your opponents base at 5:55. As protoss, your warpgate finishes at 6mins. In a typical 2 gate robo build, they will get 2 sentries before warpgate finishes. So they can FF the ramp twice, buying 30 more seconds. Once warpgate finishes, they'll get 2 more sentries. You won't be able to get up the ramp until the 7 minute mark or later because the energy recharges on the sentries, and by then he'll have a ton of units.
The build is entirely adjustable. Example:
I can make the army smaller and have the last Marine out at 4:50. The army would then be 13 SCVs, 14 Marines.
9 Supply Depot
10 Barracks (Naked)
10 Barracks (Naked)
11 Marine
12 Barracks (Naked)
12 Marine
13 Marine
14 Marine
15 Marine
16 Marine
17 Supply Depot
17 Marine
18 Marine
19 Marine
20 Marine
21 Marine
23 Marine
24 Marine
25 Marine
Still think that would be more of a threat than the build the topic is about.
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Builds like this are just indicative of bad game design honestly, all-ins in this game are generally too strong. We've seen plenty of high level gsl players that are there because of the fact that they can abuse all-in plays and other really strong players (think most of IM but there are others) can't get into gsl because they lose to all-inish play in the qualifiers.
It's frustrating and it's something that blizzard needs to address in the expansions. I don't really have anything against players that recognize these all-ins and use them though, ultimately we play the game to win and if this works then all the more power to people.
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@Blackman
Dude read what kind of stupidity you just wrote there...
All that you are basically saying is that everything that dont let zerg take free map control, 4 bases and 90 drones w/o being forced to make more zerglings than there are watch towers on map is cheese.
You are just being ridiculously biased.
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Eh, I've seen it once in ladder. Scouted him last on Typhon, saw wallin at bottom and just got a bunker (standard reaction really). Easy win, ofc he called me a noob, said he used to be GM etc etc
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On May 17 2011 21:28 mTw|NarutO wrote:
While I agree that you need a stalker or two to be agressive with, you absolutely need a sentry to forcefield your ramp at least once against an ALL SCV + 20 Marine Push. I do often no gas expand against Protoss and I can beat 8+ Stalkers easily with 20 Marines on a not superwide open area (which your main is not). If you think you can defend without pulling probes and with just 2 stalkers against all scvs + 10-20 Marines.. no way.
And as a grandmaster myself who playes against some of the best Zergs (DIMAGA in my team) I can tell you, you do not engage the Terran while he is moving to you. You sit back, because for every second he's not mining he will lose ground against your still mining production.
He can probably spend few saved minerals and send 5-8 marines as reinforcements but you can easily stall 30 seconds and have fresh 24 lings. While your army might be inferior when he starts the attack, it will probably be superior when he hits your base.
;-)!
Cool, so you're giving advice on how to counter a completely different build at completely different timings. That's extremely helpful advice in a thread about a 5 minute push.
You're talking about a push that comes (at the earliest) 90 seconds later...
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@Blackman
What a load of garbage your last post is. Zerg does not require superior skills to beat Terran nor does Terran require superior skills to beat Zerg. Whoever is the best player will simply win. That is how the game is designed. Yes, there may be some tweaks that are needed but normally, the player with better micro,macro,game sense, etc... will win the game.
So Zerg has less cheese, big deal. More zerg cheese will eventually be discovered.
Terran can pull back at any time from an allin (with the exception of an allin that includes bringing all scvs like this one) if they feel they are losing much easier than a zerg can. There is no bunker, pf, simcity, block, etc. for a zerg to fall back on.
This is totally false. Anyone who stops an all-in that didn't do enough damage to their opponent is SEVERELY behind. Watch Thorzain vs Naniwa in game 5 where Naniwa went for an all-in 6 gate and it failed. Thorzain later won the game because he was so far ahead.
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On May 18 2011 08:00 proxY_ wrote:
Builds like this are just indicative of bad game design honestly, all-ins in this game are generally too strong. We've seen plenty of high level gsl players that are there because of the fact that they can abuse all-in plays and other really strong players (think most of IM but there are others) can't get into gsl because they lose to all-inish play in the qualifiers.
It's frustrating and it's something that blizzard needs to address in the expansions. I don't really have anything against players that recognize these all-ins and use them though, ultimately we play the game to win and if this works then all the more power to people.
Meh, people who are much better than the OP are losing to this out of sheer inexperience of the build imo. Look at the games he lost section, the counters are relatively simple; chronoed sentries, repaired bunker, early blings.
It's only indicative of a design issue if it's too hard to scout various builds, but when I look back of the past months of SC2 at all the apparently OP all ins that have now all but disappeared I am confident that experience will eradicate this one as well.
I mean, remember when you couldn't turn on GSL without seeing scvs pulled before the 5 minute mark?
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On May 18 2011 08:12 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 21:28 mTw|NarutO wrote:
While I agree that you need a stalker or two to be agressive with, you absolutely need a sentry to forcefield your ramp at least once against an ALL SCV + 20 Marine Push. I do often no gas expand against Protoss and I can beat 8+ Stalkers easily with 20 Marines on a not superwide open area (which your main is not). If you think you can defend without pulling probes and with just 2 stalkers against all scvs + 10-20 Marines.. no way.
And as a grandmaster myself who playes against some of the best Zergs (DIMAGA in my team) I can tell you, you do not engage the Terran while he is moving to you. You sit back, because for every second he's not mining he will lose ground against your still mining production.
He can probably spend few saved minerals and send 5-8 marines as reinforcements but you can easily stall 30 seconds and have fresh 24 lings. While your army might be inferior when he starts the attack, it will probably be superior when he hits your base.
;-)! Cool, so you're giving advice on how to counter a completely different build at completely different timings. That's extremely helpful advice in a thread about a 5 minute push. You're talking about a push that comes (at the earliest) 90 seconds later...
well the same concepts apply. He's saying that if you stall the push then it gives you a better chance to win.
I've used this push against a few of my zerg practice partners (High diamond, Master level) and the only way we've found that zerg can stop this with a 15 hatch build is to assume it's coming when you scout the bottom wall off, and then make 3 or 4 spines at their front, cut drone production for as many lings as possible, and then build a baneling nest to transition into a counter baneling bust, assuming that this cheese doesn't actually come.
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whew I finally beat this build for the first time in 800 level master league. Once you see a supply depot and a barracks on the low ground, immediately suspect 3 rax cheese. then add 2 more gateway (so stay on 3 gate), and chronoboost stalkers ( don't upgrade wg since it will cost you the valuable 50 gas). finally when the marines & scvs arrive, micro your stalkers and use the probes to surround the marines. make stalkers until you run out of gas, and make zealots - chronoboost gateways! still it will be pretty close.
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On May 18 2011 08:14 Velladin wrote:@Blackman What a load of garbage your last post is. Zerg does not require superior skills to beat Terran nor does Terran require superior skills to beat Zerg. Whoever is the best player will simply win. That is how the game is designed. Yes, there may be some tweaks that are needed but normally, the player with better micro,macro,game sense, etc... will win the game. So Zerg has less cheese, big deal. More zerg cheese will eventually be discovered. Show nested quote +
Terran can pull back at any time from an allin (with the exception of an allin that includes bringing all scvs like this one) if they feel they are losing much easier than a zerg can. There is no bunker, pf, simcity, block, etc. for a zerg to fall back on.
This is totally false. Anyone who stops an all-in that didn't do enough damage to their opponent is SEVERELY behind. Watch Thorzain vs Naniwa in game 5 where Naniwa went for an all-in 6 gate and it failed. Thorzain later won the game because he was so far ahead.
Watching the EG Masters Cup earlier, Morrow vs Drewbie, Drewbie did a 2 rax bunker rush that failed, didn't lose much but didn't do any damage, and because it's an ALL IN Morrow could just roll him with roaches immediately after. If you can retreat and be fine, it's not an all in.
But anyway, why does it even matter that zerg has less bullshit cheese available? If you resent not having the ability to have a selection of high risk/reward ways of attempting cheap wins, then pick Terran. You obviously can't like zerg very much if you think they need more all ins to be good...if you play a race because you prefer them I'm assuming you'd want to be good at it rather than cheesing all the time anyway.
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I guess i'm early scouting after 10 depot (or even earlier since theres a chance to scout the wrong way) every TvT I have and if I see a low wall ill drop a bunker and pump out a few extra marines. Looks like hard build to defend against. If I see the low wall i'm gunna hide my scout and see if he does the supply drop around the right timing (ill have to check that). If he doesn't then you basically know its not this build or a slower version and therefore easier to hold off version of the build.
Whats more interesting is to see whether people start using the lower wall to hide other builds like fast cloak banshee and how well those builds win. As a terran a really fast banshee isn't as bad as other races because of scan and marines but its still bad. At the moment when I see a lower wall off ill expect this build. The ideal is to scout this early (before any marines out) and hide the scv (though the cheeser could just attack follow your scout and bring over another scv but this will slightly delay the timing and perhaps ultimately show that you're cheesing).
My two cents as a first time poster 
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you're kinda stuck with having to cheese every game once you ladder up like this :o
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On May 18 2011 08:02 Sek-Kuar wrote:
@Blackman
Dude read what kind of stupidity you just wrote there...
All that you are basically saying is that everything that dont let zerg take free map control, 4 bases and 90 drones w/o being forced to make more zerglings than there are watch towers on map is cheese.
You are just being ridiculously biased.
lol I am not saying that at all, taking 4 bases and getting 90 drones is a completely different conversation, that involves a macro game. I am not saying at all that harassment should not be used, but there is a big difference between a 10 minutes marine tank timing push designed to stop a zerg third or dropping at expos to lower drone count, and a marine scv allin that comes at 4 minutes designed to kill the opponent flat out.
On May 18 2011 08:14 Velladin wrote:@Blackman What a load of garbage your last post is. Zerg does not require superior skills to beat Terran nor does Terran require superior skills to beat Zerg. Whoever is the best player will simply win. That is how the game is designed. Yes, there may be some tweaks that are needed but normally, the player with better micro,macro,game sense, etc... will win the game. So Zerg has less cheese, big deal. More zerg cheese will eventually be discovered. Show nested quote +
Terran can pull back at any time from an allin (with the exception of an allin that includes bringing all scvs like this one) if they feel they are losing much easier than a zerg can. There is no bunker, pf, simcity, block, etc. for a zerg to fall back on.
This is totally false. Anyone who stops an all-in that didn't do enough damage to their opponent is SEVERELY behind. Watch Thorzain vs Naniwa in game 5 where Naniwa went for an all-in 6 gate and it failed. Thorzain later won the game because he was so far ahead.
1. I am talking about early allin/cheese builds not overall macro games, so yes in a normal macro game the better player usually wins, but early on, terran allin builds do not require anything but execution of the build order and micro. A zerg must be able to a) identify the build b) figure out what he needs to make to counter it c) figure out how many drones is safe to build before the rush arrives so that even if he defeats the rush he doesn't lose afterward based on the fact that he over compensated for it d) have equal or better micro than the terran executing the rush.
2. Zerg does have less cheeses that are not only less in number, but are, on a net scale, less effective and harder to execute than a terran allin/cheese. The fact that zerg has so much less options allows terran to almost completely dictate the early game, which shouldn't be the case. The amount of cheese and the vast differences in the responses to each also makes the zerg have to play much more of a guessing game than the terran has to i.e. if a terran sees a zerg trying to baneling bust, they will notice an earlier pool/gas, and they will see a large amount of ling production, and most of all: no expansion. This is the give away that completely destroys zerg cheese potential because it is so easy to scout for. On the other hand, terran allins are impossible to scout without an overlord sac, and a competent terran will use good build placement and marines to prevent vision. Terran cheese openings and standard openings are almost indistinguishable from each other solely because, until lair tech, all the zerg can see is the ramp of the terran, and any good terran will hide their unit count and put building further back to prevent vision of them. For example, you can do this 3 rax/scv allin with a 2 rax building placement, making most zergs assume you are doing a 2 rax. And when you dont put down an initial bunker rush, the zerg will probably go so far as to assume that you are just playing economical.
3. A) 6 gate is not an early game push, it is a midgame push. B) I'm talking exclusively about the tvz matchup C) The fact that terrans can salvage, lift off, and use of bunkering and blocking against the zerg nullifies any sort of counter attack without a significant supply lead, the terran can get away with an allin if the zerg suffers enough losses to even the playing field from the attack, if zerg counter attacks and fails miserably, or if the terran just bunkers down, spams mules, and turtles ridiculously. Terran can save up enough mules and use enough harassment (forcing units instead of drones or flat out killing drones) to easily put itself back into the game at the least.
Conversely, if a zerg allins, say with a baneling bust, they attack, break the wall, get in and manage to barely kill all of the terran units, but they do not have enough reinforcements fast enough to push the attack to victory (i.e. the terran immediately rebuilds the block) they are immediately behind economically and are also immediately vulnerable to a counter attack or a fast tech switch. Terran has the option of playing hyper aggressive and being semi economical with it (this is the entire basis of players like qxc's play), while zerg must choose between aggression or economy, there is no in between. Zerg has no option to switch into turtle/defensive mode, since they are always playing on the defensive to begin with.
Comments like "zerg doesn't have as much cheese so what" makes me feel like you've never played zerg at a high diamond/masters level, and don't understand how much effort it takes to know how to defend against semi competent, cheesy players.
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On May 18 2011 08:31 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 08:14 Velladin wrote:@Blackman What a load of garbage your last post is. Zerg does not require superior skills to beat Terran nor does Terran require superior skills to beat Zerg. Whoever is the best player will simply win. That is how the game is designed. Yes, there may be some tweaks that are needed but normally, the player with better micro,macro,game sense, etc... will win the game. So Zerg has less cheese, big deal. More zerg cheese will eventually be discovered.
Terran can pull back at any time from an allin (with the exception of an allin that includes bringing all scvs like this one) if they feel they are losing much easier than a zerg can. There is no bunker, pf, simcity, block, etc. for a zerg to fall back on.
This is totally false. Anyone who stops an all-in that didn't do enough damage to their opponent is SEVERELY behind. Watch Thorzain vs Naniwa in game 5 where Naniwa went for an all-in 6 gate and it failed. Thorzain later won the game because he was so far ahead. Watching the EG Masters Cup earlier, Morrow vs Drewbie, Drewbie did a 2 rax bunker rush that failed, didn't lose much but didn't do any damage, and because it's an ALL IN Morrow could just roll him with roaches immediately after. If you can retreat and be fine, it's not an all in. But anyway, why does it even matter that zerg has less bullshit cheese available? If you resent not having the ability to have a selection of high risk/reward ways of attempting cheap wins, then pick Terran. You obviously can't like zerg very much if you think they need more all ins to be good...if you play a race because you prefer them I'm assuming you'd want to be good at it rather than cheesing all the time anyway.
The only reason morrow was able to roll drewbie after the 2rax fail was because drewbie transitioned in a completely greedy way: throwing down 2 ebays and immediately switching to hellions. If drewbie had played defensive at all, i.e. putting down a bunker, fortifying his block, or just plain scanning to see what the zerg was doing, he wouldn't have lost. That being said I think one of the main reasons morrow won was just because he is a flat out better player than Drewbie to begin with.
The deficit in cheese options for zerg has nothing to do with feeling like we need more allins to be better, but more as an issue of having as many options so we can have an equal playing field in the early game. Cheeses are about mind games and options, and zerg certainly gets the short end of the stick on both of those.
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He had one finished bunker, it was nowhere near enough, he had about 6 others in production because he knew he was DEAD + Show Spoiler +And he did scan. Interesting fact, at the beginning of the game they were discussing the roach/bling bust Morrow did in game 1 and Drewbie said he was gonna 'scan you this time'. Morrow replied by saying 'scan and if I'm not doing it you're behind. Fun thing about TvZ, you're blind.'
As for options, you've got plenty without cheeses. I guess I'll just have to disagree that zerg needs all ins for the purposes of mind games...
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On May 18 2011 09:20 The KY wrote:He had one finished bunker, it was nowhere near enough, he had about 6 others in production because he knew he was DEAD + Show Spoiler +And he did scan. Interesting fact, at the beginning of the game they were discussing the roach/bling bust Morrow did in game 1 and Drewbie said he was gonna 'scan you this time'. Morrow replied by saying 'scan and if I'm not doing it you're behind. Fun thing about TvZ, you're blind.' . He wasn't going for hellions, he'd just added on more rax and yes he was making 2 engy bays but I guarantee you he was dead anyway even if he'd had those 250 minerals. He all inned, he failed, he got bitch slapped. He was already dead before Morrows blings got there. The point being that regardless of whether Morrow > Drewbie, the claim that terran can just 'put down a bunker' and be fine after failing to all in is absurd. As for options, you've got plenty without cheeses. I guess I'll just have to disagree that zerg needs all ins for the purposes of mind games...
Zerg has larva for the purpose of mindgames.
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Almost every terran player on ladder is now using this build. Can't hope for a non-cheesy PvT game now.
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wat are you guys seriously arguing zerg options/game balance this was just a build order thread
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On May 18 2011 10:13 Moobla wrote:
Almost every terran player on ladder is now using this build. Can't hope for a non-cheesy PvT game now.
I know, but many of those Terrans are retards and think they can still a-click and win. I have been messing around with this build and I've managed to won one games by having ONE scv running near them and they all chase after it, giving me time to make an additional EIGHT marines before he realizes 'oh crap, wtf am I doing?'
Other tvt games are just all-in versus all-in. Being a random player, I'm not as familiar with terran micro as they are so I stop marine production half way and make a bunker...
User was warned for this post
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EPT
