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[G]PvT Naniwa build - Page 4

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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ViperaViRuS
Profile Joined May 2011
United States82 Posts
May 17 2011 18:12 GMT
#61
I was just wondering if the OP will be altered at all in order to produce a new optimal build since the increase in time to research WG? Sadly I never got to test around with the build before the nerf.
"CHILL GET OUT" -NaNiwa
RedusK
Profile Joined December 2010
United States37 Posts
May 17 2011 21:40 GMT
#62
On May 18 2011 02:51 ximae wrote:
it works fine for me after some minor adjustments, push comes just 5-10 secs later

i just crono 2 times probes, first on 11 second at 14 (so i can place assim at 13 just after gate) then the rest on wg.

So the build remains the same just that ur one probe behind on every step o the bo.

its not as clean as before though ( 2nd gate pops a tad bit after u start 1st stalker, and gotta wait a sec to get second stalker due to gas shortage)... but still as efective.


pd: i do recomend putting the second gas at 32-33, so u got enough gas soon enough to get a robo while u push, banshees can be a pain if not.


I use this build a lot (high Diamond), and this is exactly how I've found it to be as well: almost as strong as before but not quite, only 2 CBs on probes the rest on WGs and everything flows great. I also agree with 2nd gas right before putting down Nexus, otherwise you're just praying your opponent isn't going Banshees.

The added benefit to this build is that it's completely safe vs any early Terran cheese, more so than 1 Gate FE. It also sometimes just kills the Terran outright if he's cutting corners like skipping early units or bunkers. The other huge advantage is that thanks to the early sentry you can setup a contain outside the Terran ramp while you secure your expo and get ramp up your production. Requires high APM while macroing but it's awesome.

But... it is less economical than 1 Gate FE, for sure. Can't have it all
If you're not riding on the edge, you're taking up too much space
black_drag0n
Profile Joined May 2011
4 Posts
May 17 2011 22:33 GMT
#63
i would really like to see how you are achieving this "almost as strong" as for my experience it seems much weaker. could you provide a replay?
i'll try to get a replay to post here on my own too.
wejeht
Profile Joined May 2011
3 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-17 23:19:54
May 17 2011 23:19 GMT
#64
So I did this build and when I got to his base and he had a bunch of bio units on 1 base and just killed me lol, can anyone tell me what I did wrong and how I could fix it, or was there anything that I saw that should have triggered something in my play

*platinum player

http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)Overloading_vs_(P)Wejeht_shakuras_plateau_sc2rep_com_20110518/8455
Snaphoo
Profile Joined July 2010
United States614 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-18 03:47:50
May 18 2011 03:43 GMT
#65
On May 18 2011 08:19 wejeht wrote:
So I did this build and when I got to his base and he had a bunch of bio units on 1 base and just killed me lol, can anyone tell me what I did wrong and how I could fix it, or was there anything that I saw that should have triggered something in my play

*platinum player

http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)Overloading_vs_(P)Wejeht_shakuras_plateau_sc2rep_com_20110518/8455


Hey wejeht, took a look at your replay, 2 kinds of suggestions: your play and your strategy.

--
PLAY:
* Your building placement needs to be smoother:

* 10 SECONDS LOST: At 2:52 you had 180 minerals and your Gateway was done; you dropped your Cyber Core at 3:03. You give the Terran a free 10 second head-start on tech and defending your poke-- cut that out of your gameplay and your poke will automatically come about 10 seconds faster, which is huge.

* 30 SECONDS LOST, -1 STALKER: At 3:33 you had 150 minerals banked, and could have dropped the 2nd Gateway. Instead, you continue banking 150 and drop it at 4:04. You could have gotten out an extra stalker in that time.

* -1 STALKER: At 5:20, your first Gateway pops out a stalker with Warpgate half-done, and you never build another one out of it until Warpgate finishes, despite floating 315/70. Your push was 1 stalker lighter.

* Your macro slipped a lot as you pushed out; you randomly built 2 assimilators at the natural but didn't add Gateways. Watch some replays of Naniwa to see how he transitions out of the build; you had 2 gateways + 1 Robo and 4 assimilators: You cannot spend all that gas with those structures.

STRATEGY:
7:08: Terrible decision, easily fixed: why did you go up the ramp? You saw 9 marines and a marauder, and maybe the second marauder if you were careful. Remember, this build is not a 4 gate; the poke is strong enough to kill greedy teching terrans, but for someone going 2 rax it's dicey to go up the ramp with that many marines, and for 3 rax (as he had) you simply cannot win.

You got what you wanted; your poke showed you (a) where his army was (b) that he hadn't expanded (c) that he had at least 2 barracks (d) that he wasn't going cloaked banshees, one of the weaknesses of this build (e) that he spent somewhere around as much as you on units and hadn't expanded-- so you were ahead. At that point, there is NO NEED to attack or run up his ramp and unnecessarily lose units.

--

Overall your play was fine, you're just going to improve with time. I can't emphasize enough how much you should watch pro replays at a place like www.sc2rep.com and see how pros properly macro. I'm low Diamond and have pretty trash macro, but I still win games (often long ones, lol), so it's helpful to watch replays to realize how far I have to go even though I win on ladder. Hope this was helpful. Good luck to you!
Arco
Profile Joined September 2009
United States2090 Posts
May 18 2011 04:06 GMT
#66
On May 18 2011 03:12 ViperaViRuS wrote:
I was just wondering if the OP will be altered at all in order to produce a new optimal build since the increase in time to research WG? Sadly I never got to test around with the build before the nerf.

save energy for chronoboost after 2nd chronoboost instead of 3rd
wejeht
Profile Joined May 2011
3 Posts
May 18 2011 04:10 GMT
#67
On May 18 2011 12:43 Snaphoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 18 2011 08:19 wejeht wrote:
So I did this build and when I got to his base and he had a bunch of bio units on 1 base and just killed me lol, can anyone tell me what I did wrong and how I could fix it, or was there anything that I saw that should have triggered something in my play

*platinum player

http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)Overloading_vs_(P)Wejeht_shakuras_plateau_sc2rep_com_20110518/8455


Hey wejeht, took a look at your replay, 2 kinds of suggestions: your play and your strategy.

--
PLAY:
* Your building placement needs to be smoother:

* 10 SECONDS LOST: At 2:52 you had 180 minerals and your Gateway was done; you dropped your Cyber Core at 3:03. You give the Terran a free 10 second head-start on tech and defending your poke-- cut that out of your gameplay and your poke will automatically come about 10 seconds faster, which is huge.

* 30 SECONDS LOST, -1 STALKER: At 3:33 you had 150 minerals banked, and could have dropped the 2nd Gateway. Instead, you continue banking 150 and drop it at 4:04. You could have gotten out an extra stalker in that time.

* -1 STALKER: At 5:20, your first Gateway pops out a stalker with Warpgate half-done, and you never build another one out of it until Warpgate finishes, despite floating 315/70. Your push was 1 stalker lighter.

* Your macro slipped a lot as you pushed out; you randomly built 2 assimilators at the natural but didn't add Gateways. Watch some replays of Naniwa to see how he transitions out of the build; you had 2 gateways + 1 Robo and 4 assimilators: You cannot spend all that gas with those structures.

STRATEGY:
7:08: Terrible decision, easily fixed: why did you go up the ramp? You saw 9 marines and a marauder, and maybe the second marauder if you were careful. Remember, this build is not a 4 gate; the poke is strong enough to kill greedy teching terrans, but for someone going 2 rax it's dicey to go up the ramp with that many marines, and for 3 rax (as he had) you simply cannot win.

You got what you wanted; your poke showed you (a) where his army was (b) that he hadn't expanded (c) that he had at least 2 barracks (d) that he wasn't going cloaked banshees, one of the weaknesses of this build (e) that he spent somewhere around as much as you on units and hadn't expanded-- so you were ahead. At that point, there is NO NEED to attack or run up his ramp and unnecessarily lose units.

--

Overall your play was fine, you're just going to improve with time. I can't emphasize enough how much you should watch pro replays at a place like www.sc2rep.com and see how pros properly macro. I'm low Diamond and have pretty trash macro, but I still win games (often long ones, lol), so it's helpful to watch replays to realize how far I have to go even though I win on ladder. Hope this was helpful. Good luck to you!


Thank you this was very helpful
bagofhell
Profile Joined November 2010
United States10 Posts
May 18 2011 11:08 GMT
#68
Using this to great success, it seems that its just fast enough that you can nullify the banshee. I agree with Minigun getting the earlier 2nd assim.
Its not that I am lazy, its that I just dont care. -Office Space
ZUR1CH
Profile Joined February 2011
United States108 Posts
May 18 2011 17:08 GMT
#69
I've tried this attack but i can't seem to get enough damage off of it. Is it possible that my attack is coming to late? around what time should i be at their ramp with the 6 units?
dafnay
Profile Joined May 2010
Angola375 Posts
May 18 2011 17:15 GMT
#70
Arround 6 minute mark if im correct
Xanatoss
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany539 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-22 22:58:59
May 22 2011 22:26 GMT
#71
Yeah, slightly beyond 6 Minutes your attack should hit.

I also want to emphasize how ugly it is to use this build against full wallins. You lose a lot of oomph if your Zealot and Probe are not able to attack the bunker/scv's and you are not able to threaten a runby. Better opt for Voidrays if you intend to pressure him early on in case of wallin.
The chair slowly turns around. You see his face, but it can't be. He's not supposed to be here. Not him. Not a Protoss. Not THAT Protoss. MC says, "Hi Greg, long time no see." You back slowly out of the booth. But you can't. It's already forcefielded.
Divine110
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States22 Posts
May 23 2011 06:57 GMT
#72
Does this build still work post patch?
I AM Divine <3
Snaphoo
Profile Joined July 2010
United States614 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-23 07:40:03
May 23 2011 07:39 GMT
#73
On May 23 2011 15:57 Divine110 wrote:
Does this build still work post patch?


Yes. Use one extra chrono on WG and it lines up pretty close to the OP.
WeaVerPrime
Profile Joined May 2011
34 Posts
May 23 2011 09:52 GMT
#74
After reading your article the first idea tha comes into my mind is that this build is very similar to the ChitaPrime one, linked on teamliquis as "2gate pressure" or similar, take a look
shizna
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom803 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-23 10:17:36
May 23 2011 10:15 GMT
#75
if terran rushed for siege tanks, would he have 1-2 siege tanks ready by the push timing?


maybe it's similar to broodwar in that terran needs to get siege tanks to effectively hold off and expand.

i think he could have a wall, 2 x siege tanks and building expo in-base when your attack hits.

if he manually attacks the clumped units with his tanks (preferably stalkers), the push will be very messy.
WeaVerPrime
Profile Joined May 2011
34 Posts
May 23 2011 12:25 GMT
#76
Next i'll read all before posting, i'm the 6th suggesting the same thing ^^ Anyway the minigun suggestion is good, the patch don't change radically the build, still good but suffer banshee and hellion drop, for banshee obs is a solution but vs hellion drop cannon still better...
ChickenLips
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2912 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-23 12:32:02
May 23 2011 12:31 GMT
#77
wrong thread
❤Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ✿
Provocateur
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden1665 Posts
May 23 2011 12:40 GMT
#78
On May 23 2011 19:15 shizna wrote:
if terran rushed for siege tanks, would he have 1-2 siege tanks ready by the push timing?


maybe it's similar to broodwar in that terran needs to get siege tanks to effectively hold off and expand.

i think he could have a wall, 2 x siege tanks and building expo in-base when your attack hits.

if he manually attacks the clumped units with his tanks (preferably stalkers), the push will be very messy.

Getting two tanks that quickly would limit terran's options a lot. Either he'd have to settle for getting an expansion much later than protoss or he'd have to do a 1base allin. The poke isn't designed to kill, just punish greedy terrans, so if you see that he's commited a lot to units just back away and enjoy your economic situation.
IIIOmegaIII
Profile Joined May 2011
Sweden319 Posts
May 23 2011 13:37 GMT
#79
really nice build gonna try it out ))
Alejandr0
Profile Joined September 2010
United States18 Posts
May 25 2011 01:33 GMT
#80
I was wondering if OP will be adjusting build after patch. Also, those replay links do not work. Does anyone have good ones done by pros?
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