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5/24 edit: removed naniwa and kiwi replays now that the MLG links don't work anymore
Overview
Naniwa came up with a build that hits almost as hard as a 4 gate, yet expands almost as early as a 1 gate expand. You put pressure on the Terran's front using 6 units when a 4 gate would normally have 7 units. Against most standard Terran builds, this attack will hit at a timing where you will either kill a bunker and the marines inside of it for free, run past it and do heavy damage, or get some free marauder/marine kills while denying the expansion.
The strength of this build is such that IMO the 1 gate expo and 3 gate expo become obsolete on several maps.
I wanted to get more experience with this build before making a thread, but the new patch kills every build so I might as well go ahead now.
Opening Build
- 9 Pylon
- 13 Gateway, scout with probe
- 14 Assimilator
- 16 Pylon (start saving up Nexus energy after 3rd chrono)
- 18 Cybernetics Core
- 19 Zealot
- 22 Gateway
- @100% Cybernetics Core: Warpgate, chrono this as much as possible
- @100 minerals: Pylon, then Sentry as soon as you can afford it
- @100 gas: 2x Stalker
- 32 Pylon (proxy somewhere close to the Terran base)
- @100% Stalkers: walk all units toward Terran base
- 34 Nexus, convert Gateways into Warpgates
- Warp in 2 Stalkers at the proxy
- Attack the Terran player's base and build 2nd Assimilator
Attacking the Terran's base
In this section, I tell you how to play against the various things Terran can do, or things you see when you get to his base. Before doing any of these, suicide your probe up the ramp so you know what to do.
1 bunker by itself at the top of the ramp
Use Guardian Shield and kill it. If SCVs aren't already nearby for repair, you will be able to kill the bunker and all of the marines inside. If there are SCVs nearby, you can either focus them down and then run, or run past the bunker if there's nothing blocking your way. From here you can win the game outright or get some kind of a lead by killing workers, the 1st tank, the 1st banshee or raven, etc. Worst case scenario, you retreat with most of your units alive and you know whether he's going bio or tech.
2 bunkers at the top of the ramp
You can't take these head on so run past them and start causing mayhem in the Terran's base!
Bunker with supporting units
Use Guardian Shield and kill the supporting units, then either retreat or run past the bunker.
No bunker
Use Guardian Shield and kill all of his units! After that try to kill the SCVs that get pulled.
Incomplete Bunker(s) below ramp
You hit the jackpot! Kill the few marines/marauders nearby and the bunker as well, then try to run up the ramp and do as much damage as you can. If you can't kill him, you at least have a large unit advantage to delay the expansion. After this you will either win an easy macro game, or win a very easy macro game.
Complete bunker(s) and command center below ramp
This is a 1 rax expand with no gas, which you could've scouted earlier if you wanted to do a different build instead. Either run past into the main and do as much damage as you can, or go around the bunkers and kill SCVs/deny mining at the expansion. Or if you're not confident, you could always poke to force more bunkers and play a macro game since you have an expansion as well. But if you're not confident, then maybe you should've done a 1 gate expo instead when you scouted no gas...
Full wall-off at the top of the ramp
This is the worst situation because you've lost the option of running past the bunker, and I think if you saw this with your first scouting probe you could consider doing a different build. Preferably one involving a void ray. Nevertheless this isn't unwinnable, as you got your expansion first anyway. Use Guardian Shield and try to kill the bunker/units on top if you can.
Followup
There are a few different ways to play out the mid-game after your first poke. To play the most standard game plan afterward (hopefully with a sizable economic lead due to your attack!), make a Robotics Facility and 3rd Gateway as your expansion comes up. Then build the expo Assimilators and go for Colossus/upgrades as usual. At this point you’re in the same position or better compared to standard play so refer to my PvT guide for late game play, engagement tactics, dealing with drops, etc.
Alternatively, you can play Adel's style by getting a Forge instead of the Robotics Facility. You skip the expansion Assimilators and chrono out armor upgrades while massing gateway units.
If you walked up the ramp and saw a raven all-in, it should be easier to hold than usual due to the damage your units did. Skip the expo gas, cut probes after 38, then just spam units from 4 Gateways and add immortals if you saw tanks.
Replays
Against a 1 rax marauder expand, followed by Adel style:
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Please don't use my replay as example T___T I played so bad
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Kidding I don't mind..
This build is sick good. Nice guide, sad it goes to hell next patch
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Interesting!
Looking forward to going over this build in more detail !!
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On April 29 2011 13:06 Pokebunny wrote:
Please don't use my replay as example T___T I played so bad
I read your reply before I read the build and thought this might be a proxy 1 gate guide.
For the record, Naniwa played sick good in your series vs him. It was a bad weekend to be paired vs him.
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Wow, the average skill level of people responding to this thread is currently progamer. Purge is working!
Yeah I remember being unable to believe how strong this build was when I first realized it existed. Your first attack could do zero damage and you'd still be sitting almost the same economy as 1 gate expand. And then you realize you have 1 less unit than a 4 gate, so what are the odds of doing zero damage with that?
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Yea thats basically the build, possible to do some slight variations eg 13gas, 16core for bit faster units.
Mainly looks like you are missing proxy pylon before nexus in the BO.
Its not a common builds so its early strength can catch terrans by surprise, but since they can easily scout you going fast 2nd gate terrans should catch on to how many units you can have and be prepared in time. A less aggressive 2gate expo build will give better economy. For comparison sake, an unscouted version of this would be 3gate, same amount of units but attacks 1min later.
With patch can cb units 4x instead of wg for similar effect.
edit- if you robo right after nexus can get ob in time for fast cloak banshee.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
If I suspect that P is opening with this build, I found that opening banshee can usually deal enough economic damage for me to justify the later cc and the wonky unit composition that I'll get as a follow-up which is typically banshee/tank/marine/marauder with a raven thrown in there for good measure.
edit: Of course, I didn't actually play naniwa using this build so who knows if the robo is supposed to come on time but the few times I ran into this situation, the protoss typically had a robo building but not complete.
edit2: When you play against this build the 1st time, you will think that it's at least a 3 gate. I thought it was a 4 gate until I saw the protoss nat -__- Painuser thought something similar on MrBitter's stream today even though he saw the nat going up. It was obvious he hasn't played against that build before but it is actually pretty popular on ladder nowadays
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1st post, woo \o/
I use this build for every of my PvT matchup, based on the ChiTaPrime 2 Gate Pressure into Expand Build
edit: Of course, I didn't actually play naniwa using this build so who knows if the robo is supposed to come on time but the few times I ran into this situation, the protoss typically had a robo building but not complete.
I just send my proxy pylon's probe run up the Terran's ramp to check his army composition. If I see heavy marines, i just directly put my Robo, my observer came in perfect timing to counter any clocked banshee. If not, just plant more gateways.
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wow, this build looks exactly the same, just a 12 gate instead of 13. So the build is not new, just forgotten 
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I think this build will have even more options with decreased gateway build times, going to be fun to add this to my pvt openers.
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On April 29 2011 13:25 infinity21 wrote:
If I suspect that P is opening with this build, I found that opening banshee can usually deal enough economic damage for me to justify the later cc and the wonky unit composition that I'll get as a follow-up which is typically banshee/tank/marine/marauder with a raven thrown in there for good measure.
edit: Of course, I didn't actually play naniwa using this build so who knows if the robo is supposed to come on time but the few times I ran into this situation, the protoss typically had a robo building but not complete.
edit2: When you play against this build the 1st time, you will think that it's at least a 3 gate. I thought it was a 4 gate until I saw the protoss nat -__- Painuser thought something similar on MrBitter's stream today even though he saw the nat going up. It was obvious he hasn't played against that build before but it is actually pretty popular on ladder nowadays
You aren't supposed to be able to do (enough) damage with banshees against this build, as it gets an obs out at about 7:15. (EDIT: I make 1 less stalker and 1 more zealot when I do it so that I can throw down a robo right after the 2nd assimilator... maybe it's much weaker to banshees the way other people do it)
Also, random tidbits: Transfer probes to natural right after you warp in the last 2 units at the proxy pylon. The nexus finishes just around there, and you don't want to have to transfer them in the middle of microing your units.
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On April 29 2011 17:37 partisan wrote:
I think this build will have even more options with decreased gateway build times, going to be fun to add this to my pvt openers.
Incorrect. This build will no longer work if the patch goes through in its current state. Because the build revolves around a timing push, all the timings are extremely precise. Since gateway units will build faster and WG comes later, everything is thrown to hell. Some form of a 2 gate will still be viable, but not this build.
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Like said above, it's weak to cloaked banshees. After warping in two stalkers, you will have 0 gas.
I take my assimilator BEFORE making the nexus, it's slows down the push just a little, but saves you if they are going cloaked banshees. Your obs will be out in time and it doesn't really hurt the push. If I see marauders, I don't mine the gas until a bit later.
I love this build, and it has become my standard.
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This is my preferred build in pvt. I sincerly hope Blizzard will revert some changes of PTR, because otherwise this build will end in the bin.
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I really love this build, i'm going to try this out and work on it. Thank you
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As far I know, it is creatorprime who came up with this build. I would just call it a 2 gate expand build. This build is so amazingly good. I have been using it since february.
However I take the second gas around 26 supply. Why? Against tech builds (tanks, banshees) you want a robo as soon as possible. That isn't possible with a second gas. Against bio openings I like to go zealot sentry heavy, so the faster gas imo is always useful.
The key to the succes of this build is to guess correctly with your poke what terran is doing: 1 rax, 2 rax, hellion drop, banshee, thor, tank, etc.
This build can potentially kill greedy/risky startegies from terran such as can be seen here: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/170460-1v1-terran-protoss-xelnaga-caverns (me vs fnaticfenix)
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I've had alot of experience vs this build in grandmasters.
If i scout that super early 2nd gate off of 1 gas while I have the plan to go 2 barracks FE, I totally change my plan to just going 2 barracks into medivacs and skipping the expo. Not only are you safe for this early pressure but you can totally RAPE the protoss once the medivacs and stim are out.
Naniwa's build is tailored towards the gradual barracks pressure into CC build. If you skip the CC and just 1 base it with medivacs, the protoss will have no tech to deal with your developed army. His build is a gradual protoss expo that gets the nexus at a funny time and can easly be punished with a simple adapted timing attack.
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On April 30 2011 00:34 YoiChiBow wrote:
I've had alot of experience vs this build in grandmasters.
If i scout that super early 2nd gate off of 1 gas while I have the plan to go 2 barracks FE, I totally change my plan to just going 2 barracks into medivacs and skipping the expo. Not only are you safe for this early pressure but you can totally RAPE the protoss once the medivacs and stim are out.
Naniwa's build is tailored towards the gradual barracks pressure into CC build. If you skip the CC and just 1 base it with medivacs, the protoss will have no tech to deal with your developed army. His build is a gradual protoss expo that gets the nexus at a funny time and can easly be punished with a simple adapted timing attack.
I haven't seen that play in along time, but I agree that 1 base medivacs might be somewhat tough to handle. Do you have an eu account?
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On April 29 2011 17:37 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 13:25 infinity21 wrote:
If I suspect that P is opening with this build, I found that opening banshee can usually deal enough economic damage for me to justify the later cc and the wonky unit composition that I'll get as a follow-up which is typically banshee/tank/marine/marauder with a raven thrown in there for good measure.
edit: Of course, I didn't actually play naniwa using this build so who knows if the robo is supposed to come on time but the few times I ran into this situation, the protoss typically had a robo building but not complete.
edit2: When you play against this build the 1st time, you will think that it's at least a 3 gate. I thought it was a 4 gate until I saw the protoss nat -__- Painuser thought something similar on MrBitter's stream today even though he saw the nat going up. It was obvious he hasn't played against that build before but it is actually pretty popular on ladder nowadays You aren't supposed to be able to do (enough) damage with banshees against this build, as it gets an obs out at about 7:15. (EDIT: I make 1 less stalker and 1 more zealot when I do it so that I can throw down a robo right after the 2nd assimilator... maybe it's much weaker to banshees the way other people do it) Also, random tidbits: Transfer probes to natural right after you warp in the last 2 units at the proxy pylon. The nexus finishes just around there, and you don't want to have to transfer them in the middle of microing your units.
Ah I forgot to mention that I get a few marauders so P thinks I'm going bio
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On April 29 2011 17:17 Rek1zek wrote:1st post, woo \o/ I use this build for every of my PvT matchup, based on the ChiTaPrime 2 Gate Pressure into Expand BuildShow nested quote +edit: Of course, I didn't actually play naniwa using this build so who knows if the robo is supposed to come on time but the few times I ran into this situation, the protoss typically had a robo building but not complete. I just send my proxy pylon's probe run up the Terran's ramp to check his army composition. If I see heavy marines, i just directly put my Robo, my observer came in perfect timing to counter any clocked banshee. If not, just plant more gateways.
Didn't know that was on Liquipedia! I saw Naniwa using this in January though. When did other people start doing it?
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While studying Nani's MLG Dallas run I came across this build and even found a couple games where he outright killed the terran with his 2 gate poke. It was pretty funny, but it was only mid-way through the open bracket and his opponents were no names. Real weakness is just if you can't kill any standing army of the terrans you create this window where you have to cut everything to put a robo down while still continuing to make gateway units.
A lot of you guys struggling with a banshee response to this should honestly try just cutting workers and only building units while adding your robo and one additional gateway. Resume probe production when you're ready for banshees. You won't be behind in workers or economy because if you say a CC up the ramp he's either not attacking, not going banshees, or didn't have the marine count to survive your poke.
I've never had trouble with banshees as a response to this using this method, I will try to get some replays against good opponents to post here if I can though some of you blue posters are in GM while im only masters.
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Infinity has a few replays showing that his cloak banshee can get several probe kills before an observer is out.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-206018.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-206019.jpg)
So it might be a good idea to take the 2nd gas when Minigun does and mine from it regardless of whether or not you see marauders.
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Actually this build order was first written by ChitaPrime couple months ago. I was using this build order for a while and was getting 85% win ratio against terrans. I was actually thinking of writing this build order but I'm not a good writer and this build had weakness so I didn't bother. This build is weak against banshee rush or banshee followed up by marine+banshee+tank+raven+scv allins.
I actually used a variation of this build. With the mentioned build above, you need to get gas asap after the gateway and mine it fast as possible in order to get a sentry out after a zealot. Smart terrans who micro the scv well will scout that the toss have only 1 gas and will scout until the sentry comes out. Instead of 1 zealot 1 sentry 4 stalker rush, I go for 1 zealot 5 stalker. This is actually better for the terran that pressures with the early 2 marine maruader scv rush. I wrote up a build order and some replays for my friends a while ago. Here is the link for someone who is interested.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10758013/2gate.rar
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I'm having a lot of trouble vs 3 rax MM expand while using 2Gate Robo. Is this build a little better suited to handle that if I scout the early tech lab? I'm specifically having trouble dealing with the second push of MM right as I transfer to my natural off 2gate robo.
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On April 30 2011 05:52 CardinalSC wrote:
I'm having a lot of trouble vs 3 rax MM expand while using 2Gate Robo. Is this build a little better suited to handle that if I scout the early tech lab? I'm specifically having trouble dealing with the second push of MM right as I transfer to my natural off 2gate robo.
If you scout it with your observer, that's your cue to make immortals and a third gate. And since it's a 1 base semi all-in, you should be cutting probes and spamming as many units as you can. I have yet to encounter a 3 rax with naniwa's build.
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Great writeup, wish I had started doing this on the ladder before it became so popular ^_^
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I have been using this build in PvT since MLG Dallas. I have to say I really love it. The opening is so strong, gives you a balanced army along with a FE. There are so many paths to take after the first attack. Either add robo or jump up to pure WG with forges. Highly recommended for any protoss player to learn it.
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Thank you!
Tried this build versus my friend the other day, and since my timing was off he had an expansion up along with two bunkers at the natural. It was on metalopolis, so it was very easy to run around the back and harass his mineral line. The unit comp of 1 sentry, 4 stalkers, 1 zealot is very powerful for low numbers of marine/marauder if you micro your stalkers well and don't let the sentry unnecessarily die.
Does anyone know of a way to avoid quick banshee? Throw down robo right as one attacks?
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This build is really good, nevertheless in the first couple of games I tried it a couple of weeks ago, I found that it is surprisingly weak vs a very standard 3 rax early stim all-in that is hidden (!). With hidden I mean that the terran walls off completely and kinda fakes a tech opening. The problem is, that the push hits just when you are really weak due to the complete lack of scouting - and you need to push for the observer since the opponent could very well do a tech opening. But I guess it's more like just me being bad than the build having a real disadvantage there.
Socke also uses (used?) this build a lot, he also has some very interesting transitions like fast DTs vs a no gas FE where he just keeps poking with zealot/stalker and forces scvs being pulled early on.
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On May 01 2011 23:16 CardinalSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2011 09:03 FictionSC wrote:
Great writeup, wish I had started doing this on the ladder before it became so popular ^_^ Thank you! Tried this build versus my friend the other day, and since my timing was off he had an expansion up along with two bunkers at the natural. It was on metalopolis, so it was very easy to run around the back and harass his mineral line. The unit comp of 1 sentry, 4 stalkers, 1 zealot is very powerful for low numbers of marine/marauder if you micro your stalkers well and don't let the sentry unnecessarily die. Does anyone know of a way to avoid quick banshee? Throw down robo right as one attacks?
You won't have enough gas. Minigun's solution (first page) works very well. Basically, you get gas before nexus (so slightly delay nexus).
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i saw drewbie one night trying so bad to counter Naniwa's build.
he kept asking him to rematch so he could try new stuff, Nani kept rolling him.
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It's builds like this that make me think PvT is imba for P. Not complaining, though. I like my 90% winrate against T very much indeed. I've usually preferred 1gate expand with a 2zeal1stalker timing push, but this looks to be very interesting indeed.
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I play all 3 races from time to time, and this build just absolutely murdered my Terran play. I actually got pissed because I thought I lost to a 4 gate. Then I watched the replay where he had 2 gates, a robo and an expo, and my mind was blown.
Nice guide.
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On May 01 2011 23:26 sleepingdog wrote:
This build is really good, nevertheless in the first couple of games I tried it a couple of weeks ago, I found that it is surprisingly weak vs a very standard 3 rax early stim all-in that is hidden (!). With hidden I mean that the terran walls off completely and kinda fakes a tech opening. The problem is, that the push hits just when you are really weak due to the complete lack of scouting - and you need to push for the observer since the opponent could very well do a tech opening. But I guess it's more like just me being bad than the build having a real disadvantage there.
Socke also uses (used?) this build a lot, he also has some very interesting transitions like fast DTs vs a no gas FE where he just keeps poking with zealot/stalker and forces scvs being pulled early on.
Wait, really? I'm a bit confused as to how this hidden tech surprises you with the early zealot/sentry/4 stalker poke. I've had terran players intelligently attempt to hide 3rax with just a marine bunker and marauders further back in the base, but the poke is strong enough it should force reveal them. Perhaps you're being too passive, or not building the last 2 stalkers close enough to the terran base? (I prefer a proxy pylon if at all possible).
Indeed the opening is very flexible, and going fast DTs, robo, or dual forge from it works really nicely. I also agree with other posters that getting the 2nd gas quickly is crucial. I usually throw it down just after building my nexus.
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A good build, it worked twice in my first two games using it. But some questions:
Do you stop creating probes after 19/20 supply (of probes) and while your pushing until you warp in the last 2 stalkers? Or...?
What do you suggest following up the expansion with? Colossus?
Does this build work against other races?
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Im using this build and having alot of success with it. If the terran doesnt seem to look to be expanding i try and throw up a forge and cannon in the minral line to detect banshee.. and can always throw up a cannon if the terran is doing a one base push. Worth cutting probes for to get forge as you will still have 2 bases and if you hold the attack or the banshee you are way ahead anyway.
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United States2928 Posts
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Terrans rage quitting thinking this is a 4gate.  Thanks so much for the build, very clean!
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So if this feels so much like a 4 gate, is there any chance we could adapt this for PvP?
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Awesome stuff, I'll definitely look into this.
Abuse the strat as much as possible until next patch ~~
gogo
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With the WG tech time changed to 160 opposed to 180 in the upcoming patch will this build still be effective? I understand if the patch had remained with a research time of 180 seconds that the build would not have been nearly as effective and most likely would have had to be changed. Would the current BO be effective with the research time at 160? Also, do note that as of now build time for zealots and stalkers will be back to 38 and 42 seconds (only the sentry build time is cut by 5 seconds).
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On May 04 2011 15:15 tooleman wrote:
With the WG tech time changed to 160 opposed to 180 in the upcoming patch will this build still be effective? I understand if the patch had remained with a research time of 180 seconds that the build would not have been nearly as effective and most likely would have had to be changed. Would the current BO be effective with the research time at 160? Also, do note that as of now build time for zealots and stalkers will be back to 38 and 42 seconds (only the sentry build time is cut by 5 seconds).
Just came here wondering myself. Would like to see people's thoughts on this.
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On May 04 2011 15:15 tooleman wrote:
With the WG tech time changed to 160 opposed to 180 in the upcoming patch will this build still be effective? I understand if the patch had remained with a research time of 180 seconds that the build would not have been nearly as effective and most likely would have had to be changed. Would the current BO be effective with the research time at 160? Also, do note that as of now build time for zealots and stalkers will be back to 38 and 42 seconds (only the sentry build time is cut by 5 seconds).
Naniwa already does 3 zealots 1 sentry and 4 stalkers occasionally instead of 6 units. That should work fine after the patch.
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nice build, abusing the fact that protoss units are just better than terran units before medivac and stim are done (which both take like forever unless rushed for, in which case you'll have no units to benefit from them).
Hopefully the patch will fix this, but I have a feeling that a lot of zealot all-in 4gate/5gate attacks after expanding will become the norm in PvT, we'll have to see though:D
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On May 04 2011 15:25 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:15 tooleman wrote:
With the WG tech time changed to 160 opposed to 180 in the upcoming patch will this build still be effective? I understand if the patch had remained with a research time of 180 seconds that the build would not have been nearly as effective and most likely would have had to be changed. Would the current BO be effective with the research time at 160? Also, do note that as of now build time for zealots and stalkers will be back to 38 and 42 seconds (only the sentry build time is cut by 5 seconds). Naniwa already does 3 zealots 1 sentry and 4 stalkers occasionally instead of 6 units. That should work fine after the patch.
I'm sorry if this is a really dumb question but I'm guessing he builds the extra 2 zealots before the sentry and just pushes the other units back to coordinate with the later WG timing?
Btw this is a great guide and I now use this build as my standard in PvT on most maps. Thank you!
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I just tested this on the PTR. It works fine with 160 seconds, you just need to save Nexus energy after the second Chrono Boost, not the third. Then Warpgate lines up almost perfectly with Stalker x2 completion.
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Awesome! I just tried this out and might make this my standard PvT build. A couple questions:
1) Will going sentry first leave you open for reaper harass? I presume sentry first is to build up more energy for FF/guardian shield.
2) Would this be a viable PvZ build? It would look like a 4gate because of the chrono on WG, but get out a reasonably fast expand while forcing units/static defense from Z. My guess is the main problem is that they're most likely still getting their expansion faster than you, and you don't have the number of sentries needed to effectively deal with roach/ling.
Thanks again for bringing attention to this build, even if it has been around for a while.
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On May 04 2011 16:14 Melchior wrote:
Awesome! I just tried this out and might make this my standard PvT build. A couple questions:
1) Will going sentry first leave you open for reaper harass? I presume sentry first is to build up more energy for FF/guardian shield.
2) Would this be a viable PvZ build? It would look like a 4gate because of the chrono on WG, but get out a reasonably fast expand while forcing units/static defense from Z. My guess is the main problem is that they're most likely still getting their expansion faster than you, and you don't have the number of sentries needed to effectively deal with roach/ling.
Thanks again for bringing attention to this build, even if it has been around for a while.
Yeah a bunch of lings or roaches will crush your units with only 1 sentry, and you don't have the reinforcing that you do with a 4gate, it's more the initial push and its power to contain for T for awhile that's strong.
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this is a good build however like many builds there are counters for it... this build is weak against:
1. quick banshee
2. hellion drop (all your units are near his ramp, and you only got 2 warpgate up with little gas left for stalkers)
3. 3 rax stimmed timing pushes
4. 7 rax marine all in
terrans can easily defend their ramp with bunkers and take on anyone of these paths and kick some serious ass after defending the initial poke
sometimes even a single reaper can cause havoc vs this build if your units aren't in your base and your warpgates are on cooldown ><
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On May 04 2011 15:15 tooleman wrote:
With the WG tech time changed to 160 opposed to 180 in the upcoming patch will this build still be effective? I understand if the patch had remained with a research time of 180 seconds that the build would not have been nearly as effective and most likely would have had to be changed. Would the current BO be effective with the research time at 160? Also, do note that as of now build time for zealots and stalkers will be back to 38 and 42 seconds (only the sentry build time is cut by 5 seconds).
I think it would be more a defensive build because your attack timing will be delayed and you have to produce 2 more units instead of warping them in.
I really like this build because it's the best compromise between 3 gate expo and 1 gate FE. Compared to 3 gate expo it's much better against banshee play and saver than 1 gate FE. If i can't read my oponent i skip 1 stalker, get the gas earlier to have a fast robo and play defensive.
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This is a godly build and I think it will become the standard in pvt. I don't see the change to 180 really affecting it since you can simply skip 1 chrono on probes and use it on warp gates instead. I love this build so much after watching all 4 of those replays
I think the biggest problem is the stim timing push, but it looks like as long as you don't lose your stalkers that you will still do significant enough damage to justify it. If you see a lot of marines, make a forge and make 1-2 cannons at the natural and go stalker sentry and only hit when they are in range of the cannon.
Good job naniwa!
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Good job naniwa!
first time i saw this build from ChiTaPrime was in nov-december, so the merit deserves to him.
Btw, you don't really need thoses canons. when I you see the stim push comin', i just cut the probe and pump more zealots sentries. As it's said earlier, you really need to keeps your first 4 stalkers alive.
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is this build still strong in this patch?
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Seems like Naniwa abandoned this build in favor of 1 gate FE into fast collossus during the TSL finals vs Thorzain. I wonder if the patch hurt him more than it hurt Thorzain.
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Build seems dead, the fit was really tight before and the 20 seconds makes a huge difference. Less safe expo and less pressure.
Using a build with sentries just makes more sense now.
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I've been using this build a lot lately, but when I see a completed bunker and 2 marauders, I just back out because I feel like I'll be losing more than I gain. after that I transition into colossi, but since my expo's usually later than my opponent's I feel like I am slightly behind the whole game unless I catch their drop attempts and kill it off without losing much
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Awesome build, Thinking about to moving into protoss recently from Terran, definitely would book mark this thread for reference. Just curious is this build also viable in pvz and pvp?
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Was playing around with this build after the patch a bit and it just feels like the push is 15-25 seconds too late. Gotta admit that i am not a very good player but before the patch it felt like everything just fits and those steps were not bumpy in any way.
So as i like this type of opening where i can pressure the terran and expand relatively early i am still searching fotr a viable way to achiev this. but trying with different unitcompositions did not help too much till now.
If i get to a point where i say that i found a way to accomplish this i will surely post it in this forum as here are many much more skilled and experienced players that could have advice....
but for now i just can say the way it was played before it does not work anymore.
So if you came up with similar playing styles that work well it would be kind to post those.
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it works fine for me after some minor adjustments, push comes just 5-10 secs later
i just crono 2 times probes, first on 11 second at 14 (so i can place assim at 13 just after gate) then the rest on wg.
So the build remains the same just that ur one probe behind on every step o the bo.
its not as clean as before though ( 2nd gate pops a tad bit after u start 1st stalker, and gotta wait a sec to get second stalker due to gas shortage)... but still as efective.
pd: i do recomend putting the second gas at 32-33, so u got enough gas soon enough to get a robo while u push, banshees can be a pain if not.
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I was just wondering if the OP will be altered at all in order to produce a new optimal build since the increase in time to research WG? Sadly I never got to test around with the build before the nerf.
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On May 18 2011 02:51 ximae wrote:
it works fine for me after some minor adjustments, push comes just 5-10 secs later
i just crono 2 times probes, first on 11 second at 14 (so i can place assim at 13 just after gate) then the rest on wg.
So the build remains the same just that ur one probe behind on every step o the bo.
its not as clean as before though ( 2nd gate pops a tad bit after u start 1st stalker, and gotta wait a sec to get second stalker due to gas shortage)... but still as efective.
pd: i do recomend putting the second gas at 32-33, so u got enough gas soon enough to get a robo while u push, banshees can be a pain if not.
I use this build a lot (high Diamond), and this is exactly how I've found it to be as well: almost as strong as before but not quite, only 2 CBs on probes the rest on WGs and everything flows great. I also agree with 2nd gas right before putting down Nexus, otherwise you're just praying your opponent isn't going Banshees.
The added benefit to this build is that it's completely safe vs any early Terran cheese, more so than 1 Gate FE. It also sometimes just kills the Terran outright if he's cutting corners like skipping early units or bunkers. The other huge advantage is that thanks to the early sentry you can setup a contain outside the Terran ramp while you secure your expo and get ramp up your production. Requires high APM while macroing but it's awesome.
But... it is less economical than 1 Gate FE, for sure. Can't have it all
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i would really like to see how you are achieving this "almost as strong" as for my experience it seems much weaker. could you provide a replay?
i'll try to get a replay to post here on my own too.
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Hey wejeht, took a look at your replay, 2 kinds of suggestions: your play and your strategy.
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PLAY:
* Your building placement needs to be smoother:
* 10 SECONDS LOST: At 2:52 you had 180 minerals and your Gateway was done; you dropped your Cyber Core at 3:03. You give the Terran a free 10 second head-start on tech and defending your poke-- cut that out of your gameplay and your poke will automatically come about 10 seconds faster, which is huge.
* 30 SECONDS LOST, -1 STALKER: At 3:33 you had 150 minerals banked, and could have dropped the 2nd Gateway. Instead, you continue banking 150 and drop it at 4:04. You could have gotten out an extra stalker in that time.
* -1 STALKER: At 5:20, your first Gateway pops out a stalker with Warpgate half-done, and you never build another one out of it until Warpgate finishes, despite floating 315/70. Your push was 1 stalker lighter.
* Your macro slipped a lot as you pushed out; you randomly built 2 assimilators at the natural but didn't add Gateways. Watch some replays of Naniwa to see how he transitions out of the build; you had 2 gateways + 1 Robo and 4 assimilators: You cannot spend all that gas with those structures.
STRATEGY:
7:08: Terrible decision, easily fixed: why did you go up the ramp? You saw 9 marines and a marauder, and maybe the second marauder if you were careful. Remember, this build is not a 4 gate; the poke is strong enough to kill greedy teching terrans, but for someone going 2 rax it's dicey to go up the ramp with that many marines, and for 3 rax (as he had) you simply cannot win.
You got what you wanted; your poke showed you (a) where his army was (b) that he hadn't expanded (c) that he had at least 2 barracks (d) that he wasn't going cloaked banshees, one of the weaknesses of this build (e) that he spent somewhere around as much as you on units and hadn't expanded-- so you were ahead. At that point, there is NO NEED to attack or run up his ramp and unnecessarily lose units.
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Overall your play was fine, you're just going to improve with time. I can't emphasize enough how much you should watch pro replays at a place like www.sc2rep.com and see how pros properly macro. I'm low Diamond and have pretty trash macro, but I still win games (often long ones, lol), so it's helpful to watch replays to realize how far I have to go even though I win on ladder. Hope this was helpful. Good luck to you!
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On May 18 2011 03:12 ViperaViRuS wrote:
I was just wondering if the OP will be altered at all in order to produce a new optimal build since the increase in time to research WG? Sadly I never got to test around with the build before the nerf.
save energy for chronoboost after 2nd chronoboost instead of 3rd
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On May 18 2011 12:43 Snaphoo wrote:Hey wejeht, took a look at your replay, 2 kinds of suggestions: your play and your strategy. -- PLAY: * Your building placement needs to be smoother: * 10 SECONDS LOST: At 2:52 you had 180 minerals and your Gateway was done; you dropped your Cyber Core at 3:03. You give the Terran a free 10 second head-start on tech and defending your poke-- cut that out of your gameplay and your poke will automatically come about 10 seconds faster, which is huge. * 30 SECONDS LOST, -1 STALKER: At 3:33 you had 150 minerals banked, and could have dropped the 2nd Gateway. Instead, you continue banking 150 and drop it at 4:04. You could have gotten out an extra stalker in that time. * -1 STALKER: At 5:20, your first Gateway pops out a stalker with Warpgate half-done, and you never build another one out of it until Warpgate finishes, despite floating 315/70. Your push was 1 stalker lighter. * Your macro slipped a lot as you pushed out; you randomly built 2 assimilators at the natural but didn't add Gateways. Watch some replays of Naniwa to see how he transitions out of the build; you had 2 gateways + 1 Robo and 4 assimilators: You cannot spend all that gas with those structures. STRATEGY: 7:08: Terrible decision, easily fixed: why did you go up the ramp? You saw 9 marines and a marauder, and maybe the second marauder if you were careful. Remember, this build is not a 4 gate; the poke is strong enough to kill greedy teching terrans, but for someone going 2 rax it's dicey to go up the ramp with that many marines, and for 3 rax (as he had) you simply cannot win. You got what you wanted; your poke showed you (a) where his army was (b) that he hadn't expanded (c) that he had at least 2 barracks (d) that he wasn't going cloaked banshees, one of the weaknesses of this build (e) that he spent somewhere around as much as you on units and hadn't expanded-- so you were ahead. At that point, there is NO NEED to attack or run up his ramp and unnecessarily lose units. -- Overall your play was fine, you're just going to improve with time. I can't emphasize enough how much you should watch pro replays at a place like www.sc2rep.com and see how pros properly macro. I'm low Diamond and have pretty trash macro, but I still win games (often long ones, lol), so it's helpful to watch replays to realize how far I have to go even though I win on ladder. Hope this was helpful. Good luck to you!
Thank you this was very helpful
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Using this to great success, it seems that its just fast enough that you can nullify the banshee. I agree with Minigun getting the earlier 2nd assim.
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I've tried this attack but i can't seem to get enough damage off of it. Is it possible that my attack is coming to late? around what time should i be at their ramp with the 6 units?
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Arround 6 minute mark if im correct
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Yeah, slightly beyond 6 Minutes your attack should hit.
I also want to emphasize how ugly it is to use this build against full wallins. You lose a lot of oomph if your Zealot and Probe are not able to attack the bunker/scv's and you are not able to threaten a runby. Better opt for Voidrays if you intend to pressure him early on in case of wallin.
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Does this build still work post patch?
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On May 23 2011 15:57 Divine110 wrote:
Does this build still work post patch?
Yes. Use one extra chrono on WG and it lines up pretty close to the OP.
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After reading your article the first idea tha comes into my mind is that this build is very similar to the ChitaPrime one, linked on teamliquis as "2gate pressure" or similar, take a look
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if terran rushed for siege tanks, would he have 1-2 siege tanks ready by the push timing?
maybe it's similar to broodwar in that terran needs to get siege tanks to effectively hold off and expand.
i think he could have a wall, 2 x siege tanks and building expo in-base when your attack hits.
if he manually attacks the clumped units with his tanks (preferably stalkers), the push will be very messy.
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Next i'll read all before posting, i'm the 6th suggesting the same thing ^^ Anyway the minigun suggestion is good, the patch don't change radically the build, still good but suffer banshee and hellion drop, for banshee obs is a solution but vs hellion drop cannon still better...
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On May 23 2011 19:15 shizna wrote:
if terran rushed for siege tanks, would he have 1-2 siege tanks ready by the push timing?
maybe it's similar to broodwar in that terran needs to get siege tanks to effectively hold off and expand.
i think he could have a wall, 2 x siege tanks and building expo in-base when your attack hits.
if he manually attacks the clumped units with his tanks (preferably stalkers), the push will be very messy.
Getting two tanks that quickly would limit terran's options a lot. Either he'd have to settle for getting an expansion much later than protoss or he'd have to do a 1base allin. The poke isn't designed to kill, just punish greedy terrans, so if you see that he's commited a lot to units just back away and enjoy your economic situation.
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really nice build gonna try it out ))
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I was wondering if OP will be adjusting build after patch. Also, those replay links do not work. Does anyone have good ones done by pros?
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This build is amazing, even if executed at a poor level you can invoke alot of damage.
No longer will i have to be afraid of the early pressure from a terran, nor do i have to worry about falling behind by a delayed expo.
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With void ray builds becoming less popular as a result of the WG nerf, I'm finding that more Terrans are walling off these days, making this build less effective. As the OP said, this build's poke is drastically reduced in effectiveness if your units cannot get directly up the ramp in to Terran's main.
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On May 23 2011 07:26 Xanatoss wrote:
I also want to emphasize how ugly it is to use this build against full wallins. You lose a lot of oomph if your Zealot and Probe are not able to attack the bunker/scv's and you are not able to threaten a runby. Better opt for Voidrays if you intend to pressure him early on in case of wallin.
Indeed, wallin and marauders from 2 rax prevents you from doing any demage with this build and with 2 gates and resources invested in stalkers you are vunerable to any early marauder agression. But otherwise it's an excellent build.
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I almost always get a robo as I'm attacking with this build unless I see a couple of marauders. that way I can be ready against banshees, and if the scv's aren't on the ramp, I can usually kill an unsuspecting master league terran. If he has scv's on the ramp, the least I can do is check out his marine count and the lack of marauders and suspect a possible banshee play and pull back after losing 1 zealot
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I do it my way, I build gate at 22 and already have 1 stalkers, i produce constantly stlakers, and then have gas for 2 sentries (once WG finishes) Then build nexus and assimilator and pressure 2nd time (1 st time i pressure with 3 or 4 stalks)
I think it actually works well with close spawns and if terran goes for banshee rush, cuz he has only rines to defend.
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i hope that the 1.4 will help this build, he is skill intensive and funny to execute
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why would 1.4 help this build in any way? the only thing that pops into mind is the 5s nerf to Ts barraks.
anyways i have made some adjustments to this build lately to get a faster nexus and a quick robo after it but before the first warpin... this way i blind counter 2 rax and have a robo quick enough to deal with 1 1 1..... or do a 2 base histers immo timing push. Now this will benefit from 1.4 due to the immo and wp buffs.
so its my standar opener again now
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Guys im trying to find this VoD i think it was casted by Artosis in TSL3. Map was Tal'Darim i might be wrong but he used this build i really would like to see the execution. If someone would PM me the link for vod it would be very appreciated.
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Silly question but is this build still viable? If not, why?
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On January 12 2012 07:19 bankai wrote:
Silly question but is this build still viable? If not, why?
Terran players adjusted and accounted for early WG pressure on most maps that it can be done on. Not to mention the Terran expand builds are much more refined and much safer now adays.
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The biggest reason is that Warp Gate Research was nerfed by 20 seconds, which delays the pressure until it is too late to do damage.
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I think grubby did something exactly like this on tda one of his games. i was like wtf grubby this build is terrible on this map against bunkers. and then he proceeded to trade 4 zealots for like 10 scvs and i was like O_O
nani builds are gosu
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Northern Ireland24995 Posts
On January 12 2012 07:38 Alejandrisha wrote:
I think grubby did something exactly like this on tda one of his games. i was like wtf grubby this build is terrible on this map against bunkers. and then he proceeded to trade 4 zealots for like 10 scvs and i was like O_O
nani builds are gosu
Grubby's build seemed to be designed to draw SCVs to the bunkers, snipe them with stalkers while probing up at home and taking an early third, gaining him a MASSIVE economy lead. I actually quite like that concept, at least if I read it correctly. He didn't bring sentries to FF off the SCVs and bust the bunkers but was quite deliberately sniping the workers.
You're a lot better than me Alej and have a lot more experience trying different types of pressure builds, do you think as others do in this thread that the WG nerf has limited the effectiveness of such early pressure, and if not what openings do you specifically employ? I mean one build that I definitely feel is sub-optimal is the old aggressive 3 gate, expanding behind it. The warpins come that little bit later which makes the aggression less effective, and the expansion is pretty late so makes holding hardcore 1 base builds that much more difficult.
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On January 12 2012 07:47 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 07:38 Alejandrisha wrote:
I think grubby did something exactly like this on tda one of his games. i was like wtf grubby this build is terrible on this map against bunkers. and then he proceeded to trade 4 zealots for like 10 scvs and i was like O_O
nani builds are gosu Grubby's build seemed to be designed to draw SCVs to the bunkers, snipe them with stalkers while probing up at home and taking an early third, gaining him a MASSIVE economy lead. I actually quite like that concept, at least if I read it correctly. He didn't bring sentries to FF off the SCVs and bust the bunkers but was quite deliberately sniping the workers. You're a lot better than me Alej and have a lot more experience trying different types of pressure builds, do you think as others do in this thread that the WG nerf has limited the effectiveness of such early pressure, and if not what openings do you specifically employ? I mean one build that I definitely feel is sub-optimal is the old aggressive 3 gate, expanding behind it. The warpins come that little bit later which makes the aggression less effective, and the expansion is pretty late so makes holding hardcore 1 base builds that much more difficult.
on tda i love hero's 3g pressure.. he does expand behind but he commits a lot of mins to warp-ins before the nexus. maybe 3 or 4 warpins. off the top of my head its something like this
9 py
12 gate
14 gas
15 py
17 core
18 z
22s
(2 gates before 3rd pylon. i prefer getting them on 25 instead of 23 because a 12 gate WG research timing can't utilize the speed of adding the 2 gates on 23.. see tin man ^^)
nets you 1z2s
he puts a pylon low ground around the back of the terran's nat and when his warpgates are about up he walks thru the bunker with his 1z1s and warps in 3 stalkers behind the mins. you can trade extremely effectively this way as long as your micro is up to snuff. consider subbing in 1 or 2 zealots instead of stalkers for this 1st warp in if he's bum rushing your units with scvs
this is of course only if you see 1 rax cc!
if you don't, no point in going 3 gate before nexus on tda
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EPT
