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On August 21 2011 21:52 RedDragon571 wrote:
Hey blade, this is bugrancher, here, anyway can you update this for the influx of mech play. I'm having trouble with mech expecially close positons. Ive tried alot of different unit comps, but I keep having issues with blue flame helions killing workers faster than you can kill them. the main problem is knowing when to take my third and defending it. Mutalisk are useless when scvs repair the thor. I cant gain a macro advantage with constant blueflame harass and when i don't have that macro advantage i cant make roaches in large enough numbers to deal with mech balls. i need to try roaches with drops. Also its hard to scout a Fe into mech play. I'm lost against this style.
edit: You already have a mech section but can you expand a bit on it.
and what happens when they emp your infestors... your strat seems heavily dependent on neural parasite, although i guess its similar to a storm vs feedback situation.
Well I never see ghosts when they go back, also if its close positions (i'm guessing you are talking shattered temple?) there is not much you can do in those positions as it takes about 10 seconds to get to your base. Its a free win for your opponent if those are your positions.
I can expand on the mech a little bit, but if you know there are ghosts out spread your infestors and do try to get a flank on that mech ball while using neural parasite.
updated!
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I just have to say thank you for this, I am a new player and by no means high level (High Bronze is literally bottom of the barrel) but these guides have convinced me that I can confidently go fast expo and do well. Since adopting this play style I have basically only lost because of Bronze league mistakes (bad scouting). I may not always play fast enough to execute it perfectly (60APM), but it is still a big help. I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate it.
Also thanks for the replays, a great help.
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Blade, a few months ago in early 2011 there was a popular early Zerg strategy: mass Queens for defense. It was used by Catz with success (seen on a few Day9 episodes), but later I heard little about it. I thought that mass Queens as a early game defense really frees up the Zerg to macro up with drones, as well as giving epic creep spread and great larva inject opportunities.
I am curious about professional opinion regarding this strategy, as I can't find it on Liquipedia. Can it stand up to general builds like Spanishiwa's Ice Fisher build and the speedling expand?
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On October 14 2011 14:20 Setev wrote:
Blade, a few months ago in early 2011 there was a popular early Zerg strategy: mass Queens for defense. It was used by Catz with success (seen on a few Day9 episodes), but later I heard little about it. I thought that mass Queens as a early game defense really frees up the Zerg to macro up with drones, as well as giving epic creep spread and great larva inject opportunities.
I am curious about professional opinion regarding this strategy, as I can't find it on Liquipedia. Can it stand up to general builds like Spanishiwa's Ice Fisher build and the speedling expand?
I have never been a big fan of spanishiwa's no gas till 40 suppy build especially vs terran's. On the korean server at least a lot of my zvt's they go for a super fast third and use hellions for map control. With spanishiwa's build you will be super far behind due to strategies like that and even protoss could do the same thing because your tech is delayed a lot and you can't take a third vs a terran with map control due to the drone dying instantly an roaches will be awhile.
Now I do think zergs should make 3-4 queens though (i'm bad for not doing this EVERY game but I am trying to get into the habbit of always having a third queen at least). Just for the creep spread. I have never been a huge fan of 10 queens or something but 3-4 queens is good unless you know he's doing heavy air play like banshee then yeah making more then 4 queens is a good idea.
But yeah 3-4 queens with 2 being for pure creep spread I think is almost a must (again I still need to do that in all mu's except zvz).
That is just my opinion on it anyway  .
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OK thanks, 10 Queens on 2 bases might be overdoing it a bit. But why only 3-4 Queens? Why not 6 Queens? I can build them 2 at a time (one from each base) in 3 separate timings. I can do this vs low league and be fine, but what about the higher leagues?
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On October 15 2011 04:54 Setev wrote:
OK thanks, 10 Queens on 2 bases might be overdoing it a bit. But why only 3-4 Queens? Why not 6 Queens? I can build them 2 at a time (one from each base) in 3 separate timings. I can do this vs low league and be fine, but what about the higher leagues?
I don't make more then 3-4 because I see no reason to get more then that as I don't find it beneficial unless he's doing some heavy banshee play or heavy air in general early game. I don't know how it fairs at higher leagues I imagine but yeah.
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Could you upload some replays of you owning mech? I try my best vs mech, I do drops and counter attacks, my problem is if I'm on 4 bases and he doesn't bother to turn around takes out 2 bases and usually all my tech and I'm stuck making just lings or roaches a I end up losing by a slim margin, do you still stand that you can rape a fully mech 6-10 tanks, 4 thors and like 10-20 BFH's with just a good surround? another problem for me is if I counter attack they usually seem to get set up in a good position before I can get back to defend, should I just abandon counter attacking and focus on a sick surround?
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On October 15 2011 09:22 xploD69 wrote:
Could you upload some replays of you owning mech? I try my best vs mech, I do drops and counter attacks, my problem is if I'm on 4 bases and he doesn't bother to turn around takes out 2 bases and usually all my tech and I'm stuck making just lings or roaches a I end up losing by a slim margin, do you still stand that you can rape a fully mech 6-10 tanks, 4 thors and like 10-20 BFH's with just a good surround? another problem for me is if I counter attack they usually seem to get set up in a good position before I can get back to defend, should I just abandon counter attacking and focus on a sick surround?
Hmm I will look for them I haven't played mech to much so it might be a bit hard but I'll look for them! some of these replays are a little out of date now that infestors suck vs mech but in general what I do is muta/ling/bane/roach and try to get a full surround on his units and have banelings connect to banelings.
So far that has been working awesome for me and been crushing the few mech players I play on korea. I'll try to find some to upload and will bump this when I do .
Even if you don't kill his mech army with a full surround your reinforcements should take his down unless you are just so far behind economically then no but you should easily be able to finish it off with reinforcements.
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Blade, I'm curious to get your opinion on a slight modification to this build I've been using. I follow your opener fairly closely, but transition into an aggressive push. Essentially:
Drone to 28
Warren
2x overlords
8 roaches when warren finishes (you have exactly the right amount of supply/mins/gas)
Pressure with 7 roaches, leaving 1 roach and 2 queens as defense
I typically combine the push with an overlord providing high ground vision, while spamming drones at home. So far this has worked pretty well although I'm still figuring out a transition out of it. When i watch my replays I'm usually ahead by ~15 drones and even in army by the end of the push, although I often die a few minutes later (trying to determine why that is). I'm curious if you think this is a viable strat or if it hurts too badly to make that many roaches and pause drone production for that long.
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On November 11 2011 23:47 Shadrak wrote:
Blade, I'm curious to get your opinion on a slight modification to this build I've been using. I follow your opener fairly closely, but transition into an aggressive push. Essentially:
Drone to 28
Warren
2x overlords
8 roaches when warren finishes (you have exactly the right amount of supply/mins/gas)
Pressure with 7 roaches, leaving 1 roach and 2 queens as defense
I typically combine the push with an overlord providing high ground vision, while spamming drones at home. So far this has worked pretty well although I'm still figuring out a transition out of it. When i watch my replays I'm usually ahead by ~15 drones and even in army by the end of the push, although I often die a few minutes later (trying to determine why that is). I'm curious if you think this is a viable strat or if it hurts too badly to make that many roaches and pause drone production for that long.
I don't like this especially that early as that is very committing. I imagine you are dying because he is doing a marine/tank push and you lose all 8 of your roaches and you are droning so you don't have units? I actually have been doing something a little different with the roach warren also and adding a third queen earlier. I will actually be updating this guide with that very soon
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On November 12 2011 04:08 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 23:47 Shadrak wrote:
Blade, I'm curious to get your opinion on a slight modification to this build I've been using. I follow your opener fairly closely, but transition into an aggressive push. Essentially:
Drone to 28
Warren
2x overlords
8 roaches when warren finishes (you have exactly the right amount of supply/mins/gas)
Pressure with 7 roaches, leaving 1 roach and 2 queens as defense
I typically combine the push with an overlord providing high ground vision, while spamming drones at home. So far this has worked pretty well although I'm still figuring out a transition out of it. When i watch my replays I'm usually ahead by ~15 drones and even in army by the end of the push, although I often die a few minutes later (trying to determine why that is). I'm curious if you think this is a viable strat or if it hurts too badly to make that many roaches and pause drone production for that long. I don't like this especially that early as that is very committing. I imagine you are dying because he is doing a marine/tank push and you lose all 8 of your roaches and you are droning so you don't have units? I actually have been doing something a little different with the roach warren also and adding a third queen earlier. I will actually be updating this guide with that very soon
Yeah its typically a marine/tank push a few minutes later which hits JUST before my mutas can pop. I guess the delay in econ creates a dangerous timing window. If he delays I usually win the game as my macro is pretty far ahead but if he hits that window its over.
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What do you do against hellions to contain you until he push very fast with tanks/marines with siege ? I usually find myself unable to secure a third with only zerglings and making too much roach with delay my tech to much.
Also can you kill the new trend of ghost with ultra/ling/bling/infestors ?
Also for the poster before me, if your push is succesfull, you could delay your tech more, get +1 melee/speedling and be safer than ever with ling/roach. 4hatchs (3 expands + 1 macro hatch) to pump lings/roachs (5roachs at most). It crushs any kind of marine/tank push.
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On November 13 2011 04:46 Erasme wrote:
What do you do against hellions to contain you until he push very fast with tanks/marines with siege ? I usually find myself unable to secure a third with only zerglings and making too much roach with delay my tech to much.
Also can you kill the new trend of ghost with ultra/ling/bling/infestors ?
Also for the poster before me, if your push is succesfull, you could delay your tech more, get +1 melee/speedling and be safer than ever with ling/roach. 4hatchs (3 expands + 1 macro hatch) to pump lings/roachs (5roachs at most). It crushs any kind of marine/tank push.
Well I always get roaches so that I have map control away from the roaches so I can take my third faster. Imo roaches are a great early game unit when you don't commit to them like making a ton to try and do damage (defensive is good of course) or getting upgrades for them.
I literally always make a few vs hellion play as again it gets me map control so I can see if they try any sneaky attacks, and I can take a third without having to commit to a million zerglings and waste a lot of larva.
So I can't answer your question because hellions do not contain me, but a normal marine/tank timing comes at about 9:30-10 minutes so you should scout his base with an over seer to see his army and if he will push or not.
And no I have no idea how to fight vs mass ghost play, on the few times I have faced it was vs korean terrans and I have yet to win vs it in a late game scenario so I have no advice but to try to not let him get there xD.
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Hey guys bumping this to let you guys know I updated this guide to the standard play I do now in this match up.
There will be some added replays tomorrow but this is pretty updated in terms of the strategy I do now. The only thing I don't do is defensive nydus worms but am working on making that into my standard play. (hard to get rid of muscle memory so easy to forget to do it -_-).
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EPT
