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On July 17 2011 15:47 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +Ok so once you've scouted a 2 rax coming you should make all your larva into lings Really? I think you could be more specific than this. Personally my 2 rax is trying to get you to do this. I come in, touch the creep, dance around a lil bit then peace on out.
YOUR 2RAX. As in, Z can't know what the T plans to do. Make more marines and go kill if you don't see enough lings, or stop making marines and expand. It's better to overmake lings and catch up with injects than to just flat out die.
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Will the 3 spines that are meant to hold off hellions also hold off drops? I feel like I get destroyed by terran drops in the midgame even when I have mutas because he figures out a way to take out all my scouting overlords to leave me mostly blind until it's too late.
If not, what is the best way to hold drops?
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On July 17 2011 14:52 Mayor wrote:
Is your midgame composition still roach/ling/bane/muta? Do you think mutas are better than infestors in ZvT, if so, why? I know this guide was posted pre-infestor buff (I think anyways), so I don't know if you've changed your style. Personally, I feel quite the opposite, but I'm also quite a worse player. ^^
I have updated the guide in the time of the infestor buff. I still feel infestors are worse then muta's in zerg vs terran.
Reasons being are that infestors can NOT handle drops. A good terran if they see you going straight infestors can abuse you so bad with drops if they know what they are doing. You can see drops and have to prepare for them. If you are out of position with your army for example and he drops you will not get there for awhile while with muta's you can get there a lot faster.
Also you can not really harass a terran base at all. They don't have to worry about it so they can take a third base faster and not have to worry about a huge flock of muta's destroying their base or something. They don't' have to position their marines to be able to run into the main as soon as muta's fly in.
Infestors are great defensive, not so great offensive from experience. I get infestors once I am on my way to tier 3 tech as that is when I feel they are worth getting.
Its just a mess that is why I, and many other high tier zerg players (no i'm not calling myself high tier!) still go muta's first instead of infestors.
I actually do muta/ling/bane with early roaches but dont' make roaches as much as I used to. Its still strong I just kind of forget now of days xD.
Really? I think you could be more specific than this. Personally my 2 rax is trying to get you to do this. I come in, touch the creep, dance around a lil bit then peace on out.
That is what a 2 rax is supposed to do. If you were to just dance on creep, and he made pure drones and you walked away. Well you are playing really stupid. If you don't make all the larva lings you will DIE to a 2 rax, especially if they make a bunker.
Will the 3 spines that are meant to hold off hellions also hold off drops? I feel like I get destroyed by terran drops in the midgame even when I have mutas because he figures out a way to take out all my scouting overlords to leave me mostly blind until it's too late.
If not, what is the best way to hold drops?
All right, he should not be able to kill your overlords when you spread them out later in the game. What you should do is have overlords in area's where marines can not kill them all over the map so you can spot them and always try to spread your overlords, its what I do and what all zergs should be doing is spreading them even into the mid-late game when they make overlords if possible.
But later in the game, you should have a lot of minerals if you are going muta/ling/bane. What I do is I make 4-5 spines at all my expansions (and probably should my main like a lot of players are doing now). They work great, they distract the marines to give you time to get there or if the player just shift clicked drop then his marines might drop into the middle of 4 spines and all die doing no damage. Those are always nice  .
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On July 18 2011 05:23 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 14:52 Mayor wrote:
Is your midgame composition still roach/ling/bane/muta? Do you think mutas are better than infestors in ZvT, if so, why? I know this guide was posted pre-infestor buff (I think anyways), so I don't know if you've changed your style. Personally, I feel quite the opposite, but I'm also quite a worse player. ^^ I have updated the guide in the time of the infestor buff. I still feel infestors are worse then muta's in zerg vs terran. Reasons being are that infestors can NOT handle drops. A good terran if they see you going straight infestors can abuse you so bad with drops if they know what they are doing. You can see drops and have to prepare for them. If you are out of position with your army for example and he drops you will not get there for awhile while with muta's you can get there a lot faster. Also you can not really harass a terran base at all. They don't have to worry about it so they can take a third base faster and not have to worry about a huge flock of muta's destroying their base or something. They don't' have to position their marines to be able to run into the main as soon as muta's fly in. Infestors are great defensive, not so great offensive from experience. I get infestors once I am on my way to tier 3 tech as that is when I feel they are worth getting. Its just a mess that is why I, and many other high tier zerg players (no i'm not calling myself high tier!) still go muta's first instead of infestors. I actually do muta/ling/bane with early roaches but dont' make roaches as much as I used to. Its still strong I just kind of forget now of days xD.
Okay, thanks! Much appreciated, I was also wondering how many roaches would you normally get throughout the whole game? Are they something you don't make past the early game,after hellions are gone? Or do you sprinkle them in with your lings/mutas throughout the game until you hit hive?
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On July 18 2011 13:06 Mayor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 05:23 blade55555 wrote:On July 17 2011 14:52 Mayor wrote:
Is your midgame composition still roach/ling/bane/muta? Do you think mutas are better than infestors in ZvT, if so, why? I know this guide was posted pre-infestor buff (I think anyways), so I don't know if you've changed your style. Personally, I feel quite the opposite, but I'm also quite a worse player. ^^ I have updated the guide in the time of the infestor buff. I still feel infestors are worse then muta's in zerg vs terran. Reasons being are that infestors can NOT handle drops. A good terran if they see you going straight infestors can abuse you so bad with drops if they know what they are doing. You can see drops and have to prepare for them. If you are out of position with your army for example and he drops you will not get there for awhile while with muta's you can get there a lot faster. Also you can not really harass a terran base at all. They don't have to worry about it so they can take a third base faster and not have to worry about a huge flock of muta's destroying their base or something. They don't' have to position their marines to be able to run into the main as soon as muta's fly in. Infestors are great defensive, not so great offensive from experience. I get infestors once I am on my way to tier 3 tech as that is when I feel they are worth getting. Its just a mess that is why I, and many other high tier zerg players (no i'm not calling myself high tier!) still go muta's first instead of infestors. I actually do muta/ling/bane with early roaches but dont' make roaches as much as I used to. Its still strong I just kind of forget now of days xD. Okay, thanks! Much appreciated, I was also wondering how many roaches would you normally get throughout the whole game? Are they something you don't make past the early game,after hellions are gone? Or do you sprinkle them in with your lings/mutas throughout the game until you hit hive?
I personally think having some with your army is good just for tanking some tank shots or something. But I normally make 5 early game at minimum. I leave 1 behind encase he tries a hellion drive by and use the other 4 to do some early pressure.
I use the 4 to force him to either reveal his tech, like if he's going banshee's and not expanding he will have to pull his banshee to defend or die (unless he scouts the roaches coming a mile away). Or blue flame hellions.
An example of this would be me vs rainbow. The replay is here: http://www.mediafire.com/?aobgeoc9jchwkap
Perfect example of me forcing his tech (even though he didn't really have any hidden tech but you see what happens due to him not expecting it and being a little greedy).
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On July 18 2011 05:23 blade55555 wrote:All right, he should not be able to kill your overlords when you spread them out later in the game. What you should do is have overlords in area's where marines can not kill them all over the map so you can spot them and always try to spread your overlords, its what I do and what all zergs should be doing is spreading them even into the mid-late game when they make overlords if possible. But later in the game, you should have a lot of minerals if you are going muta/ling/bane. What I do is I make 4-5 spines at all my expansions (and probably should my main like a lot of players are doing now). They work great, they distract the marines to give you time to get there or if the player just shift clicked drop then his marines might drop into the middle of 4 spines and all die doing no damage. Those are always nice .
I see. Thanks. Actually I was not clear enough in my description, what my enemy did was make one viking out of his starport to hunt down the overlords I had spread out, and he would follow that up with drop harassment, which would later lead to him getting an incredible lead, or lead to success with a 1 base allin. He easily got starport tech out before my mutas as he opened with reactor hellion.
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On July 24 2011 02:28 Ardhimas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 05:23 blade55555 wrote:All right, he should not be able to kill your overlords when you spread them out later in the game. What you should do is have overlords in area's where marines can not kill them all over the map so you can spot them and always try to spread your overlords, its what I do and what all zergs should be doing is spreading them even into the mid-late game when they make overlords if possible. But later in the game, you should have a lot of minerals if you are going muta/ling/bane. What I do is I make 4-5 spines at all my expansions (and probably should my main like a lot of players are doing now). They work great, they distract the marines to give you time to get there or if the player just shift clicked drop then his marines might drop into the middle of 4 spines and all die doing no damage. Those are always nice . I see. Thanks. Actually I was not clear enough in my description, what my enemy did was make one viking out of his starport to hunt down the overlords I had spread out, and he would follow that up with drop harassment, which would later lead to him getting an incredible lead, or lead to success with a 1 base allin. He easily got starport tech out before my mutas as he opened with reactor hellion.
If he makes an early viking, prepare for a drop. I have noticed when my terran opponent makes an early viking to kill overlords he always drops me 30-60 seconds later. I'm not joking when I say they do this 90% of the time I would say when they make that early viking.
After muta's come out, you should spread your overlords again as his vikings can't touch them or they die to muta's. ^_^
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Any good suggestions to BF hellions drop into main (from the Slayers at MLG?). I've seen so many versions of defense:
1. really really fast mutas (DRG did it)
2. early pure roach pressure (Idra did it)
3. some spines, no roaches (I always see this one fail)
4. some roaches just for defense (T still kills a million drones in the end)
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Also, while watching several replays, I realize that even though your mins get to like, 1k+, you don't get any macro hatches. My rule of thumb is that, when I see my mins going above like, 600, I'll just drop a macro hatch, cuz I know that it'll take a really really long time to bring my money down, and might as well throw my hatch down if I know I'm going to have my money above 300 for like 2 minutes.
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On August 08 2011 02:49 Trakky wrote:
Also, while watching several replays, I realize that even though your mins get to like, 1k+, you don't get any macro hatches. My rule of thumb is that, when I see my mins going above like, 600, I'll just drop a macro hatch, cuz I know that it'll take a really really long time to bring my money down, and might as well throw my hatch down if I know I'm going to have my money above 300 for like 2 minutes.
do note some of the replays are quiet old, I do plan on editing the main OP, and adding some replays as I almost always get a macro hatch in zvt!
Any good suggestions to BF hellions drop into main (from the Slayers at MLG?). I've seen so many versions of defense:
1. really really fast mutas (DRG did it)
2. early pure roach pressure (Idra did it)
3. some spines, no roaches (I always see this one fail)
4. some roaches just for defense (T still kills a million drones in the end)
I do early roaches. Always do (believe its in the OP as well). I use 4 roaches always to put some pressure at my opponents base (i'll have 6, 2 at home incase he makes hellions and runs around). I go to his front base, force him to either make a bunker, show his tech (lots of hellions/banshee/tank), and If i am lucky will do some damage to his economy. But the point of it is to try to reveal what tech he is doing.
If you split drones correctly and have roaches you wont' take much damage, honestly I dont' think really really fast muta, or some spines and no roaches as very viable if they bring a medivac and drop. Just my opinion on it, but I have always thought early roaches were the best option for early defense ^_^.
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Hey guys, bumping this real fast to say I did modify the guide a little bit in the OP with some more refinement as well.
Also I added 3 replays that I played on the korean server and I believe all 3 showcase late game play.
http://www.mediafire.com/?qxm3pa713cxh5pl
Enjoy and hope this helps you guys out! for people who read my zvp guide I will be updating that very soon and adding replays as well from korea ^_^.
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Well defined guide. Zerg is still the most unexplored race.
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I've been having a hell of a time against Terran lately. I usually don't have a problem holding off marine/tank with ling/bling/muta, but once they transition into more mech play (blue flame hellions and thors...STILL backed up by a crap ton of marines), I have no idea what to do. I've tried adding roaches to the mix, but the Thors and tanks eat them alive before they can do barely any damage. Magic boxing my mutas doesn't work because the two or three thors are surrounded by marines, which are surrounded by hellions who incinerate my lings. By the time I get Brood Lords out, he already anticipates it and gets a few vikings. I really hate using ultralisks against Terran because they're pretty much useless, especially against marine/tank-backed Thors. My only option is infestors, but they cost so much in gas, that my overall army is weakened because of it.
I'm at a complete loss.
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On August 08 2011 13:53 HungShark wrote:
I've been having a hell of a time against Terran lately. I usually don't have a problem holding off marine/tank with ling/bling/muta, but once they transition into more mech play (blue flame hellions and thors...STILL backed up by a crap ton of marines), I have no idea what to do. I've tried adding roaches to the mix, but the Thors and tanks eat them alive before they can do barely any damage. Magic boxing my mutas doesn't work because the two or three thors are surrounded by marines, which are surrounded by hellions who incinerate my lings. By the time I get Brood Lords out, he already anticipates it and gets a few vikings. I really hate using ultralisks against Terran because they're pretty much useless, especially against marine/tank-backed Thors. My only option is infestors, but they cost so much in gas, that my overall army is weakened because of it.
I'm at a complete loss.
Well if you see that he is transitioning into more mech play after his first push dies or something then you should be goign infestors. It really won't make your army that much weaker. You should stop producing muta's, just make lots of lings/infestor with some banelings and fungel growth for the marines and using your muta's to clean up the mess after you take out his AA, with Neural and fungel that is what you should do if he transitions into more mech style.
When he already has vikings out you should have infestor/broodlord/ling/bane with muta's that should not be dead. Your muta's are very good at keeping broodlords alive, especially when you fungel the vikings. When you go hive, on most maps you should have 4 mining bases.
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I've been having trouble with losing early map control (and later the game) to hellions lately so I can't wait to try out this style this afternoon.
Roaches are very difficult to beat for map control and are so robust compared to speedlings. I also imagine this style transitions well to a roach/ling/bane timing attack for things like close positions.
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Yes it does, if you are aiming to do a roach/ling/bane timing attack well you got the roaches already .
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Thank you for this awesome guide. Although, I've noticed that before you updated the guide, the gas timing was at 25, basically right before the roach warren. Now it's slightly earlier (i.e. 18-19). Is there any particular reason behind this change?
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I've really never done a lot of Nydus just for economy, as in having worms at expos for fast defense. One of the problem i have late game vs t is dealing with drop harass and that could be really helpful...
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On August 09 2011 06:10 MuffinCookie wrote:
Thank you for this awesome guide. Although, I've noticed that before you updated the guide, the gas timing was at 25, basically right before the roach warren. Now it's slightly earlier (i.e. 18-19). Is there any particular reason behind this change?
I changed it because I needed roaches early to deal with hellions and to do some harass to force him to reveal his tech or do some sort of pressure to force something ^_^.
I've really never done a lot of Nydus just for economy, as in having worms at expos for fast defense. One of the problem i have late game vs t is dealing with drop harass and that could be really helpful...
This is why I do it, to get units to help with drops ^^
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I had to make an account here at TL, just to thank you!
I was having a really hard time vs Terran, probably a 90% loss ratio against them. For the first time in months i feel good about my terran MU's and its all thanks to this guide.
I did not believe how much of a difference flanking made, it is unbelievable. I started positioning my army in 3 groups and as soon as he moves out to attack i come at him from all 3 sides. The terran army just melts, it is an awesome feeling
Thanks!!
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EPT
