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On June 30 2011 13:45 Trakky wrote:
"Thats fine for you to do it that way but i would recommend getting upgrades though. Ultra's I feel minimum should be 4-2 before being made." Umm.... can you rephrase that?
like Ultra's should have the + 2 melee, + 2 carapace from evo's with the + 2 armor plating from the ultra cavern upgraded before being made. I would not make ultra's with 2-1 stats for instance thats just going to get wrecked.
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Oh I see, because usually the weapon upgrade comes before the armor so it should be 2/4. But yea I totally understand what you mean, just to confirm that's all.
edit: oh nvm, you're right, armor comes before weapon.
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Ok so I have this really big problem I can't seem to handle. So a lot of Ts nowadays are opening hellions with a reactor factory, but the problem isn't that, it's the transition that follows. After the hellion pressure, I have no idea if he's going 1port cloak banshee, 2 port no cloak banshee, BLUE flame hellions, or no-bf spam of regular hellions. Now I just saw a GSTL game between FXO vs Zenex (the 3rd game) where T went hellion opening, went 2port, and hid his banshees until he has a good number of them out and then rolled the zerg. This is just build order loss, but there's really no way for Zerg to scout that and he would need like 5 queens to handle the banshees and the new rallied ones (because any good micro from T would get banshees out of attack range of spores). Again, the problem is not the unit composition he has, it's that there's no way a zerg can have enough time to prepare for them because mutas won't be out in time to deal with the banshees and a zerg would have to blindly make like 5 queens, but then what if T doesn't go for 2port? T has so many options to choose after doing the hellion opening. I tried going blind hydras and made roach/hydra my main unit comp and then do doom drops, and it did work really well against any kind of 2port/ BF hellions/ mass thors, but against marine tank it just melts.
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For the chance you should be doing a little roach pressure, that is really you're only chance to see if he's going banshee or not. Sacrificing an overlord won't reveal to much but can help so do both at the same time. He should have to force show his tech.
I build a blind evo just so I can make spores while going to lair if I feel banshee's are coming.
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Do you have any tips/indications for checking if banshees are coming? maybe check his nat at X time and if no expo, cloak is coming or something like that.
Generally, after seeing hellions, I would rush spire asap to try to get mutas out, is this a good idea? because I rush it after seeing only hellions, without even knowing if he has banshee as followup or not.
Sacing ovi never scouts anything because 2 rines can kill it before it sees anything, i'll try the roach pressure and see if it helps me reveal his tech. I have an evo built but in games, I don't know when I'm suppose to build spores to handle cloak banshees, so I just blindly built them (and ofcourse I don't want to waste drones and resources so are there any tips here? because I'm just getting them blind)
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the best bet is if you see no expansion a like 6-7 minutes in the game he is probably doing something sneaky.
If you don't see anything prepare for blue flamed, make another queen, and a spore if you're roach pressure reveals nothing. Its all you can really do and better then rushing muta imo due to you having a bad economy if you just rush it insanely fast.
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I browsed through your posts blade but didn't see anything relating to queen use.
I do pretty much the same build except for end-game, instead of infestors, I'll emphasize minerals and pump out queens to support my broodlords. Supporting those queens with lings and roaches, throwing in corruptors if he's going for vikings.
This turns my brood ball into a massive siege engine and is VERY hard for the Terran to deal with properly.
I only transition to ultras if my opponent over-produces vikings (like 10+) at which point my upgrades are right around 3/1/2 with carapace 3 researching.
Have you played with queens? Is there a reason you don't utilize them?
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I don't use queens because they are way to slow to get across the map on most maps. I see no reason in using them considering you will probably have to use a nydus to get them to the location of where you want them. That to me is a waste of money. It can be strong but not worth it to me ^^.
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You said to do some roach pressure, but if I walk my roaches across the map, what's going to stop his fast hellions runby? and ofcourse leaving roaches defending is pretty ineffective.
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On July 03 2011 05:58 Trakky wrote:
You said to do some roach pressure, but if I walk my roaches across the map, what's going to stop his fast hellions runby? and ofcourse leaving roaches defending is pretty ineffective.
When you're roaches pop out he will only have about 2 hellions. When you pressure just leave 1 roach behind. The roaches are not meant to kill them or even do damage. It is more meant to force him to reveal his secret tech (banshee's/hellions). He won't have very many marines if he's doing blue flamed hellions or banshee.
If you need to, spread you're drones so he can't just kill all the drones at the base. Sorry for late response was with family past 5 days and didn't have a ton of time 
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Sorry for the misunderstanding. So just to clarify everything - if I see a reactor factory, I should do a ~6 roach pressure to reveal his tech, however my question earlier was concerning that if I walk my roaches out to his base, then he'll have some hellions runby in my mineral lines while my roaches are half a map away towards his base. So to prevent this, I should leave a roach defending just in case. Is this correct? Thank you again by the way of answering so many questions by me.
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Tremendous guide, very complete and well-presented.
I came to the same conclusion as you on my own in regards to gas/slings in ZvT. I decided the earliest I needed speed was at about the 7:30 mark to deal with a siege tank/marine push. Spines, queens and slowlings are not adequate to deal with siege. Counting back from that mark in terms of mining times & build times, I take one gas at about 4:00-4:30. This also gives me time to get banes out in time to deal with an early bio push. Before that I've relied on queens & spines to defend early hellion harass. It's working ok for me (at a much lower level of play than yours).
I have a question about the concept of "early roach pressure." I tried early roaches ZvT after Sheth showcased this on Mr. Bitter and Day[9] also analyzed Sheth's ZvT style at the same time. I found that quite often I would arrive at the Terran base and find the top of the ramp walled with 2 depots and a barracks and a handful of marines. I got to feeling like a few roaches can't accomplish much in that situation and I had wasted the resources on them. So I went back to moving straight to a standard sling/bling style with heavy upgrades (barring scouted mech, air etc.).
What's the right approach there? Run the roaches up the ramp and try to focus down the marines? Park the roaches at his nat for intimidation purposes? Bring an overlord to get high-ground vision and snipe buildings? Bring'em home? I'd appreciate your thoughts about this because I feel you're on to something here but I just can't execute it right.
Again, great guide and it's terrific you are taking time to answer questions even five pages into the post.
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On July 06 2011 17:36 Trakky wrote:
Sorry for the misunderstanding. So just to clarify everything - if I see a reactor factory, I should do a ~6 roach pressure to reveal his tech, however my question earlier was concerning that if I walk my roaches out to his base, then he'll have some hellions runby in my mineral lines while my roaches are half a map away towards his base. So to prevent this, I should leave a roach defending just in case. Is this correct? Thank you again by the way of answering so many questions by me.
Yes that is correct, you should leave a roach or 2 behind depending on how many you make. I normally make about 4-5 and have found this method is the best in terms of trying to see what he gets. Of course if you get lucky and scout his base with an overlord you do not need to do this type of roach pressure but if you can't which is very likely you won't that is what I do ^^.
On July 07 2011 02:48 sick_transit wrote:
Tremendous guide, very complete and well-presented.
I came to the same conclusion as you on my own in regards to gas/slings in ZvT. I decided the earliest I needed speed was at about the 7:30 mark to deal with a siege tank/marine push. Spines, queens and slowlings are not adequate to deal with siege. Counting back from that mark in terms of mining times & build times, I take one gas at about 4:00-4:30. This also gives me time to get banes out in time to deal with an early bio push. Before that I've relied on queens & spines to defend early hellion harass. It's working ok for me (at a much lower level of play than yours).
I have a question about the concept of "early roach pressure." I tried early roaches ZvT after Sheth showcased this on Mr. Bitter and Day[9] also analyzed Sheth's ZvT style at the same time. I found that quite often I would arrive at the Terran base and find the top of the ramp walled with 2 depots and a barracks and a handful of marines. I got to feeling like a few roaches can't accomplish much in that situation and I had wasted the resources on them. So I went back to moving straight to a standard sling/bling style with heavy upgrades (barring scouted mech, air etc.).
What's the right approach there? Run the roaches up the ramp and try to focus down the marines? Park the roaches at his nat for intimidation purposes? Bring an overlord to get high-ground vision and snipe buildings? Bring'em home? I'd appreciate your thoughts about this because I feel you're on to something here but I just can't execute it right.
Again, great guide and it's terrific you are taking time to answer questions even five pages into the post.
When you use you're roaches you should run them up the ramp. If you see a ton of marines, just pull back. If you see so many marines you feel 4-5 roaches can not kill them then he shouldn't be able to afford getting super high tech that fast (like cloak banshee, or blue flamed hellion). A terran can't produce that many marines off of 1 rax when teching, and if he's 2 raxing they normally don't' tech as that takes longer then normal due to the delayed gas by a lot.
So if you see a ton of marines then you don't really have to worry about any sort of cloaked banshee. The only thing you would have to worry about then is 4 rax marine all in. Going up his ramp is fine with roaches because his depot's block his marines from running out and you can retreat by the time his masses of marines can run down the ramp if he chooses to engage.
After that small pressure you do, just bring them home. There is no reason to sacrifice them as they can be very useful later in case he does do a 4 rax marine all in or something like that.
Thanks, I try to help out best I can because I remember when I wanted help so try to give it back to people who were in my situation ^_^.
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So, I was reading this and I was wondering as far as the 2 rax is concerned, is the information still useful; that is, pulling all but 4 drones to the natural to defend.
I've been losing to 2 rax bunker rushes and, after practicing with a high masters terran that was admittedly bad at bunker rushing, pulling 8+ drones usually does the trick for me. Is there a standard amount of drones to pull initially to deal with a bunker rush, is, more or less, what I'm asking.
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On July 07 2011 10:17 Amaterasu1234 wrote:So, I was reading this and I was wondering as far as the 2 rax is concerned, is the information still useful; that is, pulling all but 4 drones to the natural to defend. I've been losing to 2 rax bunker rushes and, after practicing with a high masters terran that was admittedly bad at bunker rushing, pulling 8+ drones usually does the trick for me. Is there a standard amount of drones to pull initially to deal with a bunker rush, is, more or less, what I'm asking.
You do not need to pull that many drones to hold off a standard 2 rax.
for the standard 2 rax 4-5 drones with your lings to kill off his marines is imo the best way to hold off a 2 rax. If you can surround and kill his marines the rush is over and you are safe for the time being.
Now if he's pulling all of his scv's with his marines then yes you want to send every drone but 4. You honestly don't even need a spine crawler to deal with standard 2 rax aggression anymore if you do drone/ling micro correctly. The spine is if you mess up with your micro a bit or you just want to be safe. Its definitely not as needed as it was a few months ago due to how zerg players have gotten used to holding it.
I would also have a drone attacking the scv building the bunker while you try to surround his marines.
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Blade how do you hold 11/11 or 11/12. What the guy does is 11/12 or something and bring 6 scvs and makes 2 bunkers next to my ramp/hatchery at my natural. I've tried engaging with drones and first 6 lings before but he just has too much at this time.
I've only held doing 1515 0 gas 18 drone 18 OL 1 queen only ling and double spine in my natural mineral line when i have $200 for unburrow to contest the bunker. Also, I've only held when he doesn't stop my first lings coming out of my main, allowing me to cut off the 9th/10th marine and so on from joining the double bunker. But if he blocks my main I die. I don't see how 1514 can help because i get crushed engaging with 1515 so I don't see any need for the slightly earlier lings.
Please help! Much worse player raping me!
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On July 08 2011 02:46 arbitrageur wrote:
Blade how do you hold 11/11 or 11/12. What the guy does is 11/12 or something and bring 6 scvs and makes 2 bunkers next to my ramp/hatchery at my natural. I've tried engaging with drones and first 6 lings before but he just has too much at this time.
I've only held doing 1515 0 gas 18 drone 18 OL 1 queen only ling and double spine in my natural mineral line when i have $200 for unburrow to contest the bunker. Also, I've only held when he doesn't stop my first lings coming out of my main, allowing me to cut off the 9th/10th marine and so on from joining the double bunker. But if he blocks my main I die. I don't see how 1514 can help because i get crushed engaging with 1515 so I don't see any need for the slightly earlier lings.
Please help! Much worse player raping me!
For that you have to pull more then the normal amount of drones. Something I have started doing is putting a drone on hold position in that area where they can put bunkers and hide the marines there with 6 scv's on hold position. (I hope I am not misunderstanding the bunker placement you are talking about).
When you see 2 rax you should constantly be pumping zerglings until you hold. Also if you see an 11/11 or 11/12 I would make a spine crawler. if its a normal 2 rax (12/14 I believe?) don't really need it.
Just try to surround his marines if at all possible with your ling/drones. As said before if you can kill his marines, even an 11/12 his rush will be done, and if you kill his 6 scv's he is ridiculously behind. Pulling 6 scv's is an all in bunker rush and if you can hold it without taking to much damage you are going to be in a very good position.
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Is your midgame composition still roach/ling/bane/muta? Do you think mutas are better than infestors in ZvT, if so, why? I know this guide was posted pre-infestor buff (I think anyways), so I don't know if you've changed your style. Personally, I feel quite the opposite, but I'm also quite a worse player. ^^
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On July 17 2011 14:52 Mayor wrote:
Is your midgame composition still roach/ling/bane/muta? Do you think mutas are better than infestors in ZvT, if so, why? I know this guide was posted pre-infestor buff (I think anyways), so I don't know if you've changed your style. Personally, I feel quite the opposite, but I'm also quite a worse player. ^^
I do believe most mid-game unit comps in ZvT are muta/ling/bling. Mutas just provide so many options for harassment and containing and denying expos, and wrecking drop attempts, etc. Infestors can slow down a push, which is why they are good after mutas have done, or are doing, their job.
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Ok so once you've scouted a 2 rax coming you should make all your larva into lings
Really? I think you could be more specific than this. Personally my 2 rax is trying to get you to do this. I come in, touch the creep, dance around a lil bit then peace on out.
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EPT
