EPT[G] Zerg vs Terran Guide - Page 3
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CrayAB
United States24 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 24 2011 05:25 CrayAB wrote: I marine-scv all in against zergs that go hatch before pool, works pretty well yeah i imagine it does. But once a zerg knows how to hold it off your just handing off free wins which is always nice  | ||
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Aldin_D2x
Canada55 Posts
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DamnCats
United States1472 Posts
A 15 hatch is safe vs 2 rax if you know its coming and defend properly. This seems debatable to me, both from watching streams of zerg players and my own games. From what I usually see a 2 rax with only 1 or 2 scvs is fine, but if they end up bringing 4 or 5 scvs w/ the 2 rax constant marine pressure it gets really fucking messy really quick. I mean they may not win outright, but they absolutely do enough damage to negate any advantage the zerg had from a faster expo. I'm just wondering honestly I stopped 15 hatching zvt a while ago and have been getting much much better zvt results and a lot less anger at marine/scv pushes. I think I am in somewhat of a minority position for the belief that blizzard really did not intend for zerg players to feel like they HAD to 15 hatch zvt to keep up in eco. I feel like 15 hatching is a risky play and if the T chooses to punish that risky play they have a good chance of doing so. Marines and scvs v. non speedlings and drones is sometimes really just painful to watch. Regardless of that, what about maps where bunkers can be placed in stupid positions like XNC to make it so only 1 drone/ling can hit the marines at once? Also your scouting drone can see if they went 2 rax or refinery first but I don't see how it's going to see if they went CC after their 2 rax or CC after their factory? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 30 2011 03:39 Aldin_D2x wrote: Thank you for the nice read. Can you comment on Sheth's Speedling opening? I feel because protoss is my main I have yet to notice the subtle nuances that come along with each opening. Well with sheth's speedling opening he doesn't start his expansion until about 21 food but has zergling speed a lot faster so he gets map control faster. But your economy won't be as good as if you 15 hatched. On May 30 2011 04:30 DamnCats wrote: This seems debatable to me, both from watching streams of zerg players and my own games. From what I usually see a 2 rax with only 1 or 2 scvs is fine, but if they end up bringing 4 or 5 scvs w/ the 2 rax constant marine pressure it gets really fucking messy really quick. I mean they may not win outright, but they absolutely do enough damage to negate any advantage the zerg had from a faster expo. I'm just wondering honestly I stopped 15 hatching zvt a while ago and have been getting much much better zvt results and a lot less anger at marine/scv pushes. I think I am in somewhat of a minority position for the belief that blizzard really did not intend for zerg players to feel like they HAD to 15 hatch zvt to keep up in eco. I feel like 15 hatching is a risky play and if the T chooses to punish that risky play they have a good chance of doing so. Marines and scvs v. non speedlings and drones is sometimes really just painful to watch. Regardless of that, what about maps where bunkers can be placed in stupid positions like XNC to make it so only 1 drone/ling can hit the marines at once? Also your scouting drone can see if they went 2 rax or refinery first but I don't see how it's going to see if they went CC after their 2 rax or CC after their factory? Even if he brings 5-6 scv's, if you defend properly you will be ahead (5-6 scv's that early is a must do damage or he will be decently behind even with mules). If you scout 2 rax, and place a spine as soon as your pool finishes you just have to hold off till the spine finishes (which isn't that hard) and your fine. Also try to surround the marines not the scv's if you bring drones + lings. If you kill his marines his pressure is done and you are safe. If you have a lot of practice vs 2 rax pressure like that you'll eventually start holding it off easily. Now 15 hatch isn't a must in zvt but its what Me and a lot of other zergs do 99% of the time. Some people just don't like it and thats fine its not like it'll cost you a game if you don't 15 hatch and only 14/14. | ||
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DamnCats
United States1472 Posts
And yea I know a LOT of zergs hatch first zvt, basically every terran I play seems to just assume I hatched first. edit again: What about maps like metal and XNC where they can build their bunkers in such a position that only 1 or 2 drone/lings can attack the ball of scv/marines at once? And especially with the stop or hold position scv wall block? | ||
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MERLIN.
Canada546 Posts
After reading this, I was curious on your approach too thor raven hellion combonation, i saw people throwing in"roach and mutas win" against thor 3/3 with hellion cover but thats definatly not the case when u have 5 ravens with seeker missle... You can literally cut the roach army's hp to 35 % within seconds of the start of the battle, plus mule calldowns since the conflict will be after u have 3 OC's (terran side) I am also confused with how muta bling ling and roach will counter thor hellion raven mech play, where the terran opts to upgrade armour and transitions into 3 raven with 4-6 supporting vikings with +1 or + 2 armour making the dmg done by mutas negated substantially (proven in a guide on TL.net. Your best bet to counter, I find in high masters, is to use an infestor roach army, purely infestor and roaches. You get many choices with this, but you negate his hellions since they do nothing vs roaches (obviously they do something but the pictures clear) and can't move and attack infestors because its guarded behind 160 supply of roaches (estimate). So generally this stomps the composition. Just food for thought, but the downside is terran can mass expand early due to early harass and thor control (especially on big maps) so he can pool minerals like a mother fucker and Planetary fortress the map (literally...) then you have to transition into BL composition and thats a whole tech switch by then you die. It's actually the reason im high masters, my tvz is like 80% winrate(estimate again, but i win almost all of them) well my tvp and tvt are... 50? 60? maybe. like i said, see what you think, if this isnt right correct me but im fairly confident its... vaguely accurate to the point its working for the league and ranking im at. EDIT: if you go "well wont ravens still cut army HP down" when infestor mind controls (nueral parasite's) the thors (3-6 usually) they auto attack air first, ravens drop instantly if not controlled by strong micro. It really is a strong anti mech composition (this is if they break away from tank play only also, and mass thors mainly) | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 30 2011 04:57 MERLIN. wrote: Hey, Master terran... After reading this, I was curious on your approach too thor raven hellion combonation, i saw people throwing in"roach and mutas win" against thor 3/3 with hellion cover but thats definatly not the case when u have 5 ravens with seeker missle... You can literally cut the roach army's hp to 35 % within seconds of the start of the battle, plus mule calldowns since the conflict will be after u have 3 OC's (terran side) I am also confused with how muta bling ling and roach will counter thor hellion raven mech play, where the terran opts to upgrade armour and transitions into 3 raven with 4-6 supporting vikings with +1 or + 2 armour making the dmg done by mutas negated substantially (proven in a guide on TL.net. Your best bet to counter, I find in high masters, is to use an infestor roach army, purely infestor and roaches. You get many choices with this, but you negate his hellions since they do nothing vs roaches (obviously they do something but the pictures clear) and can't move and attack infestors because its guarded behind 160 supply of roaches (estimate). So generally this stomps the composition. Just food for thought, but the downside is terran can mass expand early due to early harass and thor control (especially on big maps) so he can pool minerals like a mother fucker and Planetary fortress the map (literally...) then you have to transition into BL composition and thats a whole tech switch by then you die. It's actually the reason im high masters, my tvz is like 80% winrate(estimate again, but i win almost all of them) well my tvp and tvt are... 50? 60? maybe. like i said, see what you think, if this isnt right correct me but im fairly confident its... vaguely accurate to the point its working for the league and ranking im at. I have never faced a terran who goes mech with ravens and hunter seeker missile. I imagine a terran would need at least 3-4 bases to do this + have those upgrades? After a certian amount of time you do want infestors as a zerg though with neural parasite because eventually 3/3 thors/tanks/hellions do just roll through roach/ling/bling/muta due to how strong they are. But yeah I have 0 experience with that unit composition as of now so I don't really know  | ||
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.Mthex-
United States168 Posts
I was particularly impressed with how many different scenarios you accurately covered, and how you had replays and discussions matched for each situation. I, and I'm sure the rest of the community, appreciate your effort sir. /salute | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
Also if anyone has any requests to add to the guide that I may not have please say so here and I will make sure to add it! | ||
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Tsavong
Canada15 Posts
Before my plan was: 1. Drones 2.Units 3. ???? 4. Profit (not really). | ||
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requieml
Canada72 Posts
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Sanctimonius
United Kingdom861 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 31 2011 14:17 Sanctimonius wrote: Please add more anti-mech stuff! Seriously, the only real problem I have with Terran is when they mech up. To the point that I can be ahead the entire game, have two or more bases to his two, and he makes a single big push with tanks and wins. It's very frustrating! I know the standard answer is to move to Hive/blords, but sis there any decent way to deal with it in the mid-game? I just looked at it and realized how short and kind of lame that is sorry about that I will add more content in that section very soon! To your question, You can get infestors as soon as you see mech and get neural parasite. I know idra well get muta's and if he see's pure mech he gets infestation asap and gets neural parasite and gets a lot of infestors with ling/bane support. I would add roaches to it as well but thats just my personal preference. You can do it with muta/ling/bane/roach as well (as long as you flank and keep up with upgrades) but I do think the infestor way is stronger and a much better counter. Faster broodlords are still good to get though faster then normal anyway ^^ | ||
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Sanctimonius
United Kingdom861 Posts
but the plan is to neural the thors? Or try to get the tanks while you engage? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 31 2011 14:31 Sanctimonius wrote: I thought tanks outrange neural parasite? I'll have to see that in action but the plan is to neural the thors? Or try to get the tanks while you engage?The thors if you can just because the thors can take out the tanks or the tanks fire on the thors. Siege does outrange neural but unless he has them all in a straight line which is like never you will be able to grab a tank if you want. I would go for the thors first tanks 2nd if possible. | ||
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ETisME
12680 Posts
assuming I don't use roaches, and I am contained in my natural's ramp. I have lings and banelings speed done. How should I organise my attack? Should I sent in the ling first and then the banelings? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 31 2011 15:18 ETisME wrote: a question about breaking terran siege tank contain. assuming I don't use roaches, and I am contained in my natural's ramp. I have lings and banelings speed done. How should I organise my attack? Should I sent in the ling first and then the banelings? Yes you would want your lings to get his first and not the banelings. Of course I would try not getting into this situation as its honestly no fun and very frustrating when you don't break out | ||
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ETisME
12680 Posts
On May 31 2011 15:45 blade55555 wrote: Yes you would want your lings to get his first and not the banelings. Of course I would try not getting into this situation as its honestly no fun and very frustrating when you don't break out Thanks Sadly, this always happen to me when all my scouting were denied and I honestly just had to prepare some more lings and queens just in case of anything that is coming. siege tanks and marines are just more difficult to deal with, since it takes time to morph the banelings, which also decrease the number of lings you have. I just have huge trouble when encountering this type of push because I never know how much lings I would need to actually break through that. Either I over produced lings or underproduced. if too many, I tried to counter attack, only to find they have another siege tanks and killing off all the lings. I guess it is all about experience, it's only my 200~ish games | ||
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blackkiwi
Germany6 Posts
I tryed your TvZ BO about 20 games and its really great! But I get in some situations in which I everytime loose  I got owned by a Terran which done a 1rax gas Bunker Rush. I engaged it with Zerglings but I'm not sure if it was the right decision, after I watched the replay I saw that he built it with only 2 scvs with 2 marines guarding it. I watched 12Weeks with the Pros Incontrol said that if there is a Bunker rush you should engage in the last possible moment. I thought it is right to engage when I got my spine crawler done and my hatch is nearly dieing.I done that but was behind in the economy. Now my question: is it right to defend with drones with knowing that they are dieing before the bunker gets built up? And my second question: Do you offer coaching ? and sorry for my english | ||
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