EPTEdith says:
By the way. Make Stalker illusions or other illusions as you please to decrease the damage on your army. You wont need that much forcefields anyway!
PvZ Trouble - Zerg 2 base ling + Baneling drops!. - Page 2
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moonylo
Germany68 Posts
Edith says: By the way. Make Stalker illusions or other illusions as you please to decrease the damage on your army. You wont need that much forcefields anyway! | ||
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Crooser
United States34 Posts
In my game, I did put some early 6-gate pressure on him, killed some drones and almost broke him, but missed some FF's and let some baneling through which shut it down, so I do think it is possible to pressure a ling/baneling build early. However, once overlord speed and drops were researched, everything just evaporated. The dropped baneling would take out all of my sentries as well as most of my other units. IAnything that survived would be cleaned up by his mass speedling ground force. I don't even think my guy did it particularly well, but the only way I knew how to respond was to basically stop building ground units. I managed to hide a few stargates and build some voidrays, but then a flood of zerglings and banelings flooded into my base and just wiped out everythign faster than my air could kill them. I attacked with the 10 or so void rays I was able to build, but he built a hydra den at another expansion and built a round of hydras to clean them up. I just don't think an all air switch against zerg is viable as they can react to it so quickly -- unless you are somehow able to get a near max army of void rays and/or carriers. | ||
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PaPoolee
Netherlands660 Posts
On March 14 2011 05:05 moonylo wrote: The follow up? Which is what? The same attack again? Or the unupgraded Zerglings/Roaches? When You have a or maybe even two colossus out? Edith says: By the way. Make Stalker illusions or other illusions as you please to decrease the damage on your army. You wont need that much forcefields anyway! You just stated two very different things, you said that i should put cannons in my main AND natural, now you're saying that i should do that by the time the attack comes and have my army that big + have one-two colossi out? our income was even it's not like the end of the word for the zerg to be on two base against a two basing protoss mid-game! mind if i ask how high up the ladder are you? i think the hallucination is a good idea, then again he is not walking the banelings into my army he is dropping them ONTOP of my army! and how much more apm would i need to hallucinate + run both my expo probes away and micro them so that they don't die to the overlords following them with banelings inside! you don't get it, sorry but putting 4-5 extra cannons is definitely not viable. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On March 14 2011 05:01 PaPoolee wrote: I agree with the full wall-off, but then again i thought the counter to mass ling/bling would be colossi! think about it i have to split my units + watch for the drop in my main + the drop in my natural! and i need to tech! i definitely NEED to tech or i would lose, look at the amount of roaches he had 2 minutes after the attack, its definitely NOT an all-in! I mean sure i could tell you how to beat this! i would just put cannons all over the place and run my probes away for 2 minutes until hes done with the attack, but i would lose to the follow up! oh and where would i run my probes to is the issue, i have ovies following my main expansion's probes and ovies following my army + ovies following the probes at my natural! ONE misclick and you lose the game  !.I'm not disagreeing with you, that looks absolutely nightmarish to defend and I think I would lose to that 99% of the time if I had no idea it was coming. But I think if you made 2 more observers to scout around his base after you noticed lair but no Hydra/Roach/Spire you could have picked up on the drop that was heading to your main (and followed it with an observer) and had some Stalkers over there for defense. Immortal Archon Templar DT works much better against Ling/Baneling than Colossus. Storms are amazing against huge ling forces and it allows you to engage in the open without worrying too much. If you get surrounded whilst going Colossus then it is game over, but with Archom/Immo/Tempalr, they really can't engage you because a few good storms and all their army dies without doing a single thing to the Protoss. DT's give you some form of harass and also much better to make Archons with than High Temps EDIT: Colossus also relies heavily on force fields against Ling/Banelings, Archon/Templar/Immo doesn't and I don't know about you 70% if the Zergs I face doing this do some kind of muta switch later on, if you go Colossus you have to then tech to Templar to handle it, but if you have Templar already they usually just go mass roach, which I find easier to deal with | ||
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PaPoolee
Netherlands660 Posts
On March 14 2011 05:21 Dommk wrote: I'm not disagreeing with you, that looks absolutely nightmarish to defend and I think I would lose to that 99% of the time if I had no idea it was coming. But I think if you made 2 more observers to scout around his base after you noticed lair but no Hydra/Roach/Spire you could have picked up on the drop that was heading to your main (and followed it with an observer) and had some Stalkers over there for defense. Immortal Archon Templar DT works much better against Ling/Baneling than Colossus. Storms are amazing against huge ling forces and it allows you to engage in the open without worrying too much. If you get surrounded whilst going Colossus then it is game over, but with Archom/Immo/Tempalr, they really can't engage you because a few good storms and all their army dies without doing a single thing to the Protoss. DT's give you some form of harass and also much better to make Archons with than High Temps Watch the replay again, he expanded as soon as the attack was moving out and had a LOT of spare cash, his macro was terrible! he could have easily transitioned into mass roach and broke me while i was teching to storm i needed that robo tech! it's THAT easy for zerg to tech switch, you guys don't get it! that attack was not an all-in! sure i could have sent my stalkers to stop those overlords coming to my main, but then my army at my natural would be so much weaker and i wouldn't be able to save my probes in the main! and he could have always dropped lings from ovies since all of them were empty but he was an idiot and he didn't >_>. | ||
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SaroVati
Canada280 Posts
Another thing I noticed. You STOPPED producing outta your warpgates after the 6 sentries + 1 zealot. Why....? Just to tech more? Imo the 2 cannons you dropped could've been avoided and spent into 3 stalkers, which definitely would've helped you apply even "fake" pressure to the zerg. Although I admit, zerg doesn't utilize half the things it can (terran as well), toss needs to just scout a bit more. I'm not too much higher than you (about 3700+ masters), but you NEED to pressure with your early sentries..... sure getting surrounded might lose you the game, but sitting back and letting a zerg macro is also going to lose you the game. You need to just hug walls, sit in front of his base, and it'll force the zerg to do things he doesn't normally do. | ||
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moonylo
Germany68 Posts
On March 14 2011 05:15 PaPoolee wrote: You just stated two very different things, you said that i should put cannons in my main AND natural, now you're saying that i should do that by the time the attack comes and have my army that big + have one-two colossi out? our income was even it's not like the end of the word for the zerg to be on two base against a two basing protoss mid-game! mind if i ask how high up the ladder are you? i think the hallucination is a good idea, then again he is not walking the banelings into my army he is dropping them ONTOP of my army! and how much more apm would i need to hallucinate + run both my expo probes away and micro them so that they don't die to the overlords following them with banelings inside! you don't get it, sorry but putting 4-5 extra cannons is definitely not viable. Sorry if I wasnt explicit enough, throwing ideas out there. As soon as you scout him not taking a 3rd and not having any evo chambers (especially the last), you should start adding additional cannons. That of course means, that the colossus has to wait some time. But you're not getting the colossus to face that push (because it will never be out in time anyway), but for the time after the push. I agree on the "APM" part though. Its really hard to deal with it, but the zerg also has to handle multiple parts. So chances are he's not doing it perfect, too. And especially in that situation cannons and illusions help you a lot, because everything will run into them if not manually microed. | ||
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PaPoolee
Netherlands660 Posts
On March 14 2011 05:37 SaroVati wrote: Lol I think your main problem is the fact that you let the zerg get too many drones without contesting him. I don't understand. Just because a high level player tells you to shark, doesn't mean you have to shark. Leave 1 zealot at your natural choke if you wall off, and just go pressure him... It'll force lings instead of drones, and at the very least disrupt his timings and macro more... Another thing I noticed. You STOPPED producing outta your warpgates after the 6 sentries + 1 zealot. Why....? Just to tech more? Imo the 2 cannons you dropped could've been avoided and spent into 3 stalkers, which definitely would've helped you apply even "fake" pressure to the zerg. Although I admit, zerg doesn't utilize half the things it can (terran as well), toss needs to just scout a bit more. I'm not too much higher than you (about 3700+ masters), but you NEED to pressure with your early sentries..... sure getting surrounded might lose you the game, but sitting back and letting a zerg macro is also going to lose you the game. You need to just hug walls, sit in front of his base, and it'll force the zerg to do things he doesn't normally do. with the amount of lings he had i would have been instantly KILLED as i mentioned in previous posts, i could not have possibly pushed out without losing my army due to his mass ling! he also had 3 spine crawlers so i could not have done any damage even if i did go to his base! i did move out and i went to like his side of the map and he still knew he was safe and droned up, i could not have possibly known that he was droning up when i was going to do some aggression on him! watch the replay again and tell me what you think, the things you said in this post are absolutely useless, no offense mate!. You don't understand the match up if you're saying things like this, you're supposed to be aggressive when he is expanding early and taking his 3rd and droning up, he merely got enough drones for two bases and just massed units, you can't put aggression on somebody in this situation and force him to make units because he is ALREADY making units and ALREADY has spine crawlers!. | ||
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PaPoolee
Netherlands660 Posts
On March 14 2011 05:38 moonylo wrote: Sorry if I wasnt explicit enough, throwing ideas out there. As soon as you scout him not taking a 3rd and not having any evo chambers (especially the last), you should start adding additional cannons. That of course means, that the colossus has to wait some time. But you're not getting the colossus to face that push (because it will never be out in time anyway), but for the time after the push. I agree on the "APM" part though. Its really hard to deal with it, but the zerg also has to handle multiple parts. So chances are he's not doing it perfect, too. And especially in that situation cannons and illusions help you a lot, because everything will run into them if not manually microed. the Zerg pretty much a-moved his zerglings like you saw and just handled two drops, i have to handle my army, forcefields AND splitting my army + hallucination apparently + pull and micro BOTH groups of my probes away! it was just too much, and i couldn't have possibly known when he was going to attack until the attack was coming, so i didn't know my colossi wouldn't have been out in time! thanks for your suggestions!. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On March 14 2011 05:37 SaroVati wrote: Lol I think your main problem is the fact that you let the zerg get too many drones without contesting him. I don't understand. Just because a high level player tells you to shark, doesn't mean you have to shark. Leave 1 zealot at your natural choke if you wall off, and just go pressure him... It'll force lings instead of drones, and at the very least disrupt his timings and macro more... Another thing I noticed. You STOPPED producing outta your warpgates after the 6 sentries + 1 zealot. Why....? Just to tech more? Imo the 2 cannons you dropped could've been avoided and spent into 3 stalkers, which definitely would've helped you apply even "fake" pressure to the zerg. Although I admit, zerg doesn't utilize half the things it can (terran as well), toss needs to just scout a bit more. I'm not too much higher than you (about 3700+ masters), but you NEED to pressure with your early sentries..... sure getting surrounded might lose you the game, but sitting back and letting a zerg macro is also going to lose you the game. You need to just hug walls, sit in front of his base, and it'll force the zerg to do things he doesn't normally do. Not sure if that is a good idea considering this is Ling/Baneling, not your standard Hydra/Ling or Roach/Ling. You aren't "forcing" Lings with ling/Baneling, at no point can you ever break them with any early pressure, most people just wait till you are at their door and then make a ton of lings, at that point it is over as your sentries won't be able to run back before getting surrounded. Watch the replay again, he expanded as soon as the attack was moving out and had a LOT of spare cash, his macro was terrible! he could have easily transitioned into mass roach and broke me while i was teching to storm i needed that robo tech! it's THAT easy for zerg to tech switch, you guys don't get it! that attack was not an all-in! sure i could have sent my stalkers to stop those overlords coming to my main, but then my army at my natural would be so much weaker and i wouldn't be able to save my probes in the main! and he could have always dropped lings from ovies since all of them were empty but he was an idiot and he didn't >_>. Well that is ling baneling for you, you can't exactly out macro them, I mean what are you going to do? Even with Colossus tech you can't push out against Ling/Baneling, the goal is to survive without taking heavy losses. Your only real options for dealing with macro is DT's. But anyway, you didn't have very many units at 9mins into the game I usually have like 9 sentries, a Zealot and a few Stalkers and I have my robo starting shortly after. I mean, with such few units, how do you even stop any roach timing? I'm fairly sure with the unit count you had, any burrowed roach timing with claws would walk all over you.. Also, you don't need to send many Stalkers to defend the main, if you catch it with ab observer, 2 Stalkers should be all you need to force him back. That and you can also get Immortals whilst teching to storm, or even Archons. Immortals will deal with any Roaches better than Colossus would at that stage | ||
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PaPoolee
Netherlands660 Posts
On March 14 2011 05:54 Dommk wrote: Not sure if that is a good idea considering this is Ling/Baneling, not your standard Hydra/Ling or Roach/Ling. You aren't "forcing" Lings with ling/Baneling, at no point can you ever break them with any early pressure, most people just wait till you are at their door and then make a ton of lings, at that point it is over as your sentries won't be able to run back before getting surrounded. Well that is ling baneling for you, you can't exactly out macro them, I mean what are you going to do? Even with Colossus tech you can't push out against Ling/Baneling, the goal is to survive without taking heavy losses. Your only real options for dealing with macro is DT's. But anyway, you didn't have very many units at 9mins into the game I usually have like 9 sentries, a Zealot and a few Stalkers and I have my robo starting shortly after. I mean, with such few units, how do you even stop any roach timing? I'm fairly sure with the unit count you had, any burrowed roach timing with claws would walk all over you.. Also, you don't need to send many Stalkers to defend the main, if you catch it with ab observer, 2 Stalkers should be all you need to force him back. That and you can also get Immortals whilst teching to storm, or even Archons. Immortals will deal with any Roaches better than Colossus would at that stage Two stalkers definitely would not have pushed two overlords back, takes like 15 seconds to kill the overlords and at the speed they were going i would have lost all my probes by then, MAYBE in a perfect world with perfect micro and macro i might have had a chance to save my main, but lets face it I'm not sSks or Huk!. also that army was more than enough to beat roach timings, i was teching hard so i decided to put two cannons instead of the usual one, and make an immortal while i tech to colossi! forcefields are the key, shattered temple has a pretty nice choke to your natural which can easily be force fielded to half the roach numbers and kill them in groups! something you will see in higher level play i suppose =/. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On March 14 2011 05:59 PaPoolee wrote: + Show Spoiler + On March 14 2011 05:54 Dommk wrote: Not sure if that is a good idea considering this is Ling/Baneling, not your standard Hydra/Ling or Roach/Ling. You aren't "forcing" Lings with ling/Baneling, at no point can you ever break them with any early pressure, most people just wait till you are at their door and then make a ton of lings, at that point it is over as your sentries won't be able to run back before getting surrounded. Well that is ling baneling for you, you can't exactly out macro them, I mean what are you going to do? Even with Colossus tech you can't push out against Ling/Baneling, the goal is to survive without taking heavy losses. Your only real options for dealing with macro is DT's. But anyway, you didn't have very many units at 9mins into the game I usually have like 9 sentries, a Zealot and a few Stalkers and I have my robo starting shortly after. I mean, with such few units, how do you even stop any roach timing? I'm fairly sure with the unit count you had, any burrowed roach timing with claws would walk all over you.. Also, you don't need to send many Stalkers to defend the main, if you catch it with ab observer, 2 Stalkers should be all you need to force him back. That and you can also get Immortals whilst teching to storm, or even Archons. Immortals will deal with any Roaches better than Colossus would at that stage Two stalkers definitely would not have pushed two overlords back, takes like 15 seconds to kill the overlords and at the speed they were going i would have lost all my probes by then, MAYBE in a perfect world with perfect micro and macro i might have had a chance to save my main, but lets face it I'm not sSks or Huk!. also that army was more than enough to beat roach timings, i was teching hard so i decided to put two cannons instead of the usual one, and make an immortal while i tech to colossi! forcefields are the key, shattered temple has a pretty nice choke to your natural which can easily be force fielded to half the roach numbers and kill them in groups! something you will see in higher level play i suppose =/. Well I'm not sure what you want me to say then, you seem pretty convinced that you can't beat this so why even bother posting a thread about it? Your only real option is cutting back on tech and surviving, if you are going to tech hard then you will die to this every time, you don't have the units to defend it | ||
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moonylo
Germany68 Posts
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Elean
689 Posts
You scout the banneling nest, no roach warren, no hydra den, and that's when you start your robo... When you scouted the banneling nest morphing, he had10 lings, 2 spine, no upgrade, no tech, no map vision because you've just cleared the Xel'naga tower. At this point you have 4 gate, you can probably make 2 more and go kill him. And even if you don't kill him, you are not all-in. What would you have done if you had scouted a spire instead ? Also I think you shouldn't make those 2 cannons at your entrance. You've just scouted that the zerg had no army and no tech, you should put pressure instead of turtling. And even if you decide to play passive, there are no roaches/hydra/muta coming, all you have to worry is nydius and drop. In both cases cannons at your entrance is not the answer. Finally, you can scout 30s earlier with hallucination, when your army is at the Xel-naga tower. you might miss the banneling nest with the first hallucination but you would have scouted that there were only drones and you can 6 gate. | ||
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PaPoolee
Netherlands660 Posts
On March 14 2011 06:03 Dommk wrote: Well I'm not sure what you want me to say then, you seem pretty convinced that you can't beat this so why even bother posting a thread about it? Your only real option is cutting back on tech and surviving, if you are going to tech hard then you will die to this every time, you don't have the units to defend it I'm not convinced that there is no way to beat this, but what I'm convinced of is that a lot of people post in the strategy section without actually thinking about what they are going to post, and/or do not have anything to back it up with! I.E: High ladder ranking and such. I'm not saying you can't post if you aren't high up in the ladder, but atl east provide something that actually helps! thanks for posting anyway  . | ||
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PaPoolee
Netherlands660 Posts
On March 14 2011 06:13 Elean wrote: ZvP bannelings is a strategy to punish a protoss going colossus every single game. It is much weaker against other tech paths. You scout the banneling nest, no roach warren, no hydra den, and that's when you start your robo... When you scouted the banneling nest morphing, he had10 lings, 2 spine, no upgrade, no tech, no map vision because you've just cleared the Xel'naga tower. At this point you have 4 gate, you can probably make 2 more and go kill him. And even if you don't kill him, you are not all-in. What would you have done if you had scouted a spire instead ? Also I think you shouldn't make those 2 cannons at your entrance. You've just scouted that the zerg had no army and no tech, you should put pressure instead of turtling. And even if you decide to play passive, there are no roaches/hydra/muta coming, all you have to worry is nydius and drop. In both cases cannons at your entrance is not the answer. Finally, you can scout 30s earlier with hallucination, when your army is at the Xel-naga tower. you might miss the banneling nest with the first hallucination but you would have scouted that there were only drones and you can 6 gate. Pretty much this is the only good answer in my opinion, i guess i could have threw in 2 more gateways! i would have 6gated if i scouted a spire building! keep in mind it was 7-8 mins into the game which is very early! i made those two cannons after my expo before i scouted him, since i was teching! i thought colossi would be a good response, will try to contact the guy and play more games, still! the drop is so deadly to deal with if you don't kill him with your 6 gates or do enough damage!. | ||
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Elean
689 Posts
On March 14 2011 05:50 PaPoolee wrote: with the amount of lings he had i would have been instantly KILLED as i mentioned in previous posts, i could not have possibly pushed out without losing my army due to his mass ling! 8min mark, is when you can first scout with hallucination. army tab : 41 drones, 2 queens, 1 ling at 25health with no upgrade. I know lings are scary they have claws and stuff, but come on. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
Against that kind of tech, I have difficulties against protoss who turtle up, have good army management (you need to split stalker/use sentry well/make a wall of zealot which is good since he did not had any baneling in his army on the ground), and tech up to colossi/templar (I have a lot of difficulties against player that lure me into colossi and switch to templar). 3k2 master zerg on EU. And yes, you would have killed him if you had pushed before, because he had only 2 hatch, that's not enough larva to pump out a good zergling army. | ||
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Elean
689 Posts
On March 14 2011 06:30 WhiteDog wrote: When I go heavy ling baneling build into mass expand / something, I usually love when the opponent push me early (before the 10 minute mark) because he have no colossi and I can crush his sentries. Even if the fight is not that cost effectiv for me, killing the sentries is always the good step to victory. Against that kind of tech, I have difficulties against protoss who turtle up. If you can easily defend early pressure and have difficulties against a turtle, this means you make too many lings/spine and not enough drones. This is the oppost of the replay, where the zerg made no lings at all and only drones. He win against a turtle but would die against any early pressure. | ||
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ssregitoss
Turkey241 Posts
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