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Hello and good evening TL!! Today was the second time I've encountered this build, first time i encountered it was around 2 months ago when steppes was still in the ladder map pool, i beat it because i went phoenix and just ran away with my army until the overlords were dead.
However, this time it was just too much for me to handle because of the multi-place attacks on both my main and natural mineral line + front of my base! please watch the replay before you put your thoughts in the thread or bash me for playing terribly! looking forward to see your thoughts on how to counter this efficiently without losing your entire freakin' mineral line!.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/149681-1v1-protoss-zerg-gutterhulk
P.S: 3600 masters if it's worth anything  .
EDIT: Here are some screenshots for the lazy people, even though i still recommend that you watch the replay before commenting!.
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That's the thing which can change the matchup forever 
I also wonder how to beat this.
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Very interesting strategy... I was also O.O,
As to dealing with it, scout more with the hallucinations you had, get real phoenix like you said you did last time you had a game with it (the strategy) and just spread your units like how terran players do it.
Also I think you didn't have the best fighting angle in that game, try engaging in a better big spread part of the map.
Good luck dealing with it!!! :D Hope this helps you a bit!!
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i think when you scouted the banelings nest and alot of zerglings you should have done a 6 gate and pressured him
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The attack came at like the 10th minute mark, even 6 gate wouldn't be that early! i did scout it, and i knew it was coming, i just don't know how to stop it! spreading my units will only save some, watch the replay again and see how many banelings he had, even if i spread my units my probes will die! don't know where i can run my probes so that they can't get dropped...!
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Not sitting in your base the entire game would have helped tremendously. Normally map control kind of goes back and forth at different stages during PvZ. You seemed content just sitting on 2 bases, pushing out only once with a few sentries/zealots. I watched the rep from your opponents perspective. He saw your army exactly one time, had vision of most of the map all the time, and was droning even while you went sharking with your zealot/sentry. As you probably already know at 3600 zergs get pretty good at knowing when an attack is actually coming and when you are feinting pressure.
I see most protoss including myself now opting to get a fast stargate -> VR after your expand goes down, sometimes 2 though I cant decide whats best as 2 star is powerful but feels difficult to transition out of. Have you tried going star before robo and just using the cannons for burrow while you get up a decent force. The star lets you contest their third and get some map control back so that when you fight its not 100% of the time after theyre already in your natural and dropping on your main. The obvious drawback to star before robo is that its a little more challenging to slow their creep spread.
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Yeah but think about it, it was still the 10 minute mark, when you do a 3gate expand you usually have to get your probe count up! as you saw i was also teching to colossi so i can't really pressure him all that much after i saw his zillion zerglings! one surround and i lose the entire game... i know i should have pressured him but there was no possible way for me to do so unless i went for blind stargate!.
Thanks for you comment though appreciate it .
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@Jayrod the point is, even if he pressured with his 1st immortal he would get overrun with zerglings in the middle of the map. It's not like he really could push out.
Also 3rd wasn't really a problem in this particular game.
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On March 14 2011 04:13 PaPoolee wrote:Yeah but think about it, it was still the 10 minute mark, when you do a 3gate expand you usually have to get your probe count up! as you saw i was also teching to colossi so i can't really pressure him all that much after i saw his zillion zerglings! one surround and i lose the entire game... i know i should have pressured him but there was no possible way for me to do so unless i went for blind stargate!. Thanks for you comment though appreciate it .
Ya I mean, I can see myself losing to this very attack with the exact build you used. I'm thinking maybe its not best given the situation. The real question then is... when do you deviate from the very standard version of this to combat the baneling nest that you scouted with halluc? As a separate question, was it possible to get hallucinate earlier? I didn't check that part of the rep out, but maybe getting it a little earlier would open you up to other options.
IMO don't think of star before robo as blind. Star will fulfill a purpose of its own. It forces the pace of the game and demands a response from them. It also gets the scouting information a robo could get you as well as gives you some map control options. So rather than seeing star as a counter to this build, consider it a way to force them to deviate from the build or at least delay it in favor of survivability. I used to go 3 gate ->expo - > gate/forge/robo, but then i started to think about it more and... roach/ling all ins will be tough either way. The cannon will protect you from burrow defensively without the need for the faster observer. Void ray or Immortal vs. roach is a wash, but VR opens up some other aggression options that immortal does not. When you go voids I find that there's like one timing that is hard to hold and that is hydra timing pushes, but id much rather deal with a hydra timing than baneling drops as im more used to it and comfortable with it.
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Dont listen to "Jayrod", he totally missed the state of the game. Your execution of the standard build is really good, keep it going. You just miss a little on scouting. Flying over the bases with your hallucinated phoenix, you should've noticed some important things:
No evo chambers. While you are already on your way to 1/1.
No third base yet. No hydra den, no roaches out on the map.
What does that mean? He is not going for the late game. You are already ahead regarding the late game. So if you see this kind of things next time, through up additional cannons. And dont get an immortal (instead get 2 stalkers). Make the forcefields a little bit earlier so that no lings enter your base and spread your units. Snipe the overlords. Maybe even make 2 cannons at your main. You can afford to do all that, because you just have to survive that loss with minimal probe losses and you are ahead.
Its hard, but a lot of all-ins are quite difficult to deal with, especially when u plan for the late game. But you can do it! May the force be with you.
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On March 14 2011 04:13 DrGreen wrote:
@Jayrod the point is, even if he pressured with his 1st immortal he would get overrun with zerglings in the middle of the map. It's not like he really could push out.
Also 3rd wasn't really a problem in this particular game.
pressuring with first immortal after a sentry expand is pretty much suicide. My post was meant to imply that the super defensive style of playing protoss is probably not the best way to compete with this newly popular zerg style. Its like this zerg took that new bling ling mass expansion style thats coming to the forefront and turned it into a sick timing attack. I gotta believe the spawn positions also had a big effect on how this one played out. Its really tough to get to the zergs base but it would have been prime for some stargate pressure.
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On March 14 2011 04:22 moonylo wrote:
Dont listen to "Jayrod", he totally missed the state of the game. Your execution of the standard build is really good, keep it going. You just miss a little on scouting. Flying over the bases with your hallucinated phoenix, you should've noticed some important things:
No evo chambers. While you are already on your way to 1/1.
No third base yet. No hydra den, no roaches out on the map.
What does that mean? He is not going for the late game. You are already ahead regarding the late game. So if you see this kind of things next time, through up additional cannons. And dont get an immortal (instead get 2 stalkers). Make the forcefields a little bit earlier so that no lings enter your base and spread your units. Snipe the overlords. Maybe even make 2 cannons at your main. You can afford to do all that, because you just have to survive that loss with minimal probe losses and you are ahead.
Its hard, but a lot of all-ins are quite difficult to deal with, especially when u plan for the late game. But you can do it! May the force be with you.
I have to argue this because this new baneling style is not drone dependent. Ive never actually seen anyone try this build and not do severe damage with their drops. I can tell you if the zergs attack failed he would have been more than fine to transition into a macro game. No one is questioning that his build is overall solid. Its the best standard build for the MU, but that might not always end up being the case as new threats come up
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I couldn't have possibly pushed out in this game, if you say so then just stop posting in the strategy section! too many paths to counterattack and too many zerglings! about the extra cannons, i don't believe it is a viable option to put 2-3 cannons in main and 2-3 cannons in my natural!.
Beside the fact that it is a total waste of money it won't help much, look at the amount of overlords he had, cannons do NOT one shot overlords and my probes would have died anyways, sure my cannons might have killed 3-4 banelings, but in the end it would have ended the same way, because if i had to put 3-4 more cannons up i would not have the tech i was going for!.
And for whoever is saying that i should have scouted earlier, I am not asking you to tell me how to scout, i DID scout it and i knew it was coming, oh and i also started hallucination as soon as my warp-gate upgrade finished! i could not have scouted any sooner imo! and pushing out like i said is out of the question.
Colossi seemed like a perfectly good counter to ling/bling but apparently not... keep the replies coming guys <3.
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Oh and it wasn't really an all-in because you saw the amount of roaches he had after the attack... he could always throw an expansion after the attack and throw a hydra den as well! think about it, ovie speed + drops upgrades are around 200/200 and the overall investment of the army would have been around 1500-2000 resources i'd imagine, and for the damage it will inevitably do is certainly a great investment, i don't see a way out of this strategy without getting behind in economy or have a HUGE disadvantage in tech, that is of course if its possible to beat it without tech!.
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ling/bling is hard to stop whether they drop your mineral line or not, i've been having a terrible time with that style of play. It's crazy how upgraded lings just tear through a protoss ball.
In masters level games where I have seen protoss be successful against it (on streams) they scouted with hallucinate at 8-9 minutes and then go for more gates (making sure to sim your base to make it harder for banes to get through), head to HT tech and try to apply some pressure.
I haven't seen anyone get dropped that early though. Purely speculating, i'd I guess maybe you would need some cannons and gateways blocking your mineral lines, and maybe some stalkers patrolling drop lanes. Blink would probably be a priority so you can get your stalkers to the front lines in case of an assault.
I'm not too sure about stargates vs this until you scout a cavern going up. Typically zerg get a lot of queens so you need a fair # of phoenix/VR to do any sort of base harass. Once you reveal that tech they can throw up a couple of spores with the extra money they have since they can pretty much expand at will while you are turtling.
From personal experience every expo I take requires a lot more cannons to defend and a lot of gates to sim. A sentry or two wouldn't be a bad idea to leave there either.
I'm starting to think also that double forge might work for this since zerg is doing the same with their upgrades.
Edit: one last thought. Have any of you had zerg carpet bomb your ball of units while using this strat? NOt sure how to deal with that either.
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 14 2011 04:43 Khaladas wrote:
ling/bling is hard to stop whether they drop your mineral line or not, i've been having a terrible time with that style of play. It's crazy how upgraded lings just tear through a protoss ball.
In masters level games where I have seen protoss be successful against it (on streams) they scouted with hallucinate at 8-9 minutes and then go for more gates (making sure to sim your base to make it harder for banes to get through), head to HT tech and try to apply some pressure.
I haven't seen anyone get dropped that early though. Purely speculating, i'd I guess maybe you would need some cannons and gateways blocking your mineral lines, and maybe some stalkers patrolling drop lanes. Blink would probably be a priority so you can get your stalkers to the front lines in case of an assault.
I'm not too sure about stargates vs this until you scout a cavern going up. Typically zerg get a lot of queens so you need a fair # of phoenix/VR to do any sort of base harass. Once you reveal that tech they can throw up a couple of spores with the extra money they have since they can pretty much expand at will while you are turtling.
From personal experience every expo I take requires a lot more cannons to defend and a lot of gates to sim. A sentry or two wouldn't be a bad idea to leave there either.
I'm starting to think also that double forge might work for this since zerg is doing the same with their upgrades.
Yeah but sim-city only works when you are trying to stop baneling busts and whatnot, when you are dealing with baneling DROPS its terrible to sim-city your base because you are blocking your own way to save your mineral line, i might have been able to add more gateways, but please take in consideration that the attack came SO early that i couldn't have possibly had that big of an army until two more minutes or something had i put additional gateways, and blink is out of the question in my opinion because i would have to fully commit to it, and it's hard to tech to blink that fast because i scouted around 3 minutes before the attack came! thanks for posting your opinion, looking forward to see any top players comment on what to do!.
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I would say the only way is 5-6 gates. I think you have to block the front so zerglings wont get in this way while trying to tank banelings on gateway units + snipe overlordsa.
If you focused only on drops and didnt need to care about front then it could go way better. However its impossible to sim city natural on most of the maps.
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Damn, that looked brutal. Not sure what exactly sure what you could have done.
I guess being more active with your observer could have helped, but it is very hard to pick up on these sort of things. From now on I'm going to make two observers before Immo/Colossus, so one can patrol around looking for drop play
I think what you should have done, when you saw no spire and a TON of lings + Baneling nest, was just wall off the front of your base completely, that is what I do against regular ling/baneling.
Running away with the sentries seemed futile, maybe just split them next time, it was a bit hard for you because those initial lings got in and pinned you from moving back, if you did a complete wall off it would have been much harder for the Zerg to do what he just did. All it took was two banelings though to wipe out like 10 probes, he knew exactly where to drop them.
Also, what I just noticed, You teched too quickly, when you scouted around 9mins~ you saw no Hydraden or Roach Warren, yet he had lair and baneling nest, so I don't think there was a need to tech to Colossus ASAP, if you delayed it and just got more stalkers out + a complete wall off at the front it might have worked out much better for you
So I guess just play it out like regular ling/baneling, but even more turtly, more gateways, delayed tech, complete wall offs.
I can see this being a massive bitch on Typhon though
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On March 14 2011 04:55 Dommk wrote:
Damn, that looked brutal. Not sure what exactly sure what you could have done.
I guess being more active with your observer could have helped, but it is very hard to pick up on these sort of things. From now on I'm going to make two observers before Immo/Colossus, so one can patrol around looking for drop play
I think what you should have done, when you saw no spire and a TON of lings + Baneling nest, was just wall off the front of your base completely, that is what I do against regular ling/baneling.
Running away with the sentries seemed futile, maybe just split them next time, it was a bit hard for you because those initial lings got in and pinned you from moving back, if you did a complete wall off it would have been much harder for the Zerg to do what he just did. All it took was two banelings though to wipe out like 10 probes, he knew exactly where to drop them.
Also, what I just noticed, You teched too quickly, when you scouted around 9mins~ you saw no Hydraden or Roach Warren, yet he had lair and baneling nest, so I don't think there was a need to tech to Colossus ASAP, if you delayed it and just got more stalkers out + a complete wall off at the front it might have worked out much better for you
So I guess just play it out like regular ling/baneling, but even more turtly, more gateways, delayed tech, complete wall offs.
I can see this being a massive bitch on Typhon though
I agree with the full wall-off, but then again i thought the counter to mass ling/bling would be colossi! think about it i have to split my units + watch for the drop in my main + the drop in my natural! and i need to tech! i definitely NEED to tech or i would lose, look at the amount of roaches he had 2 minutes after the attack, its definitely NOT an all-in!
I mean sure i could tell you how to beat this! i would just put cannons all over the place and run my probes away for 2 minutes until hes done with the attack, but i would lose to the follow up! oh and where would i run my probes to is the issue, i have ovies following my main expansion's probes and ovies following my army + ovies following the probes at my natural! ONE misclick and you lose the game  !.
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Same here, baneling drops are so deadly, and anti-air isn't very effective because they can bring a ton of overlords and it takes forever to kill overlords.
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