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CrystaX
Germany32 Posts
What i like to do is, get a lot of Stalker/Sentry and go kill his creep. If you kill his creephighway u can often hold the Z on 2Base whit that tactic, when he runs for you, you can just ff all the lings and with blink stalker micro get the overlords before they even drop. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On March 15 2011 02:15 Validity wrote: Wait so basically you could have walked to his base/a xel naga tower, made him make 12-14 lings instead of 6-7 drones, then walked back home safely? Also, he had 41 drones when you had 5 sentries and 1 zealot? Holy crap? Did he open like 1 set of lings entire game + you got supply blocked or something? Edit: +2 baneling drops on multiple bases midgame are freaking ridiculous and I have no idea why people complain about storm drops in comparison. What can you do? Shattered is a map that most Protoss play very passive on cross position/close by air. Hallucination isn't done in time to really be sure and there is no way to know if the Zerg has got a ton of lings waiting for you or not, you compensate by taking a quicker third as the back alley is pretty safe. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
That's theorycrafting since I haven't played against this strat since then, but I'm wondering if archons wouldn't be the solution. You said you were just starting the robo at the moment you scouted it. I'm not sure about the timings, but wouldn't you have just enough time to get a couple archons by the time the attack was coming ? If not, what about.. hallucinated archons ? If it takes 15 bannelings to kill a real archon, 6-7 bans to kill a fake one may be enough to make it cost inefficient for the zerg, and prevent the splash damage of the bans from reaching your main army ? Just an idea. | ||
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Khaladas
United States223 Posts
Edit: BTW i would highly recommend putting a specific question you want answered in your OP. I think people reading the thread ( who didn't watch the replay as you instructed) got the idea you wanted to know how to stop the timing attack and/or ling/bling in general. Sounds like you were ONLY concerned with the actual timing attack and how to respond if you originally went 3 gate expand. Love the stream btw, keep up the good work. | ||
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PaPoolee
Netherlands660 Posts
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/150264-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns | ||
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Udub
9 Posts
1. PvZ u either wanna pressure early to avoid massing up probe or possibly deny that expo, or fast expo. Your 3 gate expand at the mark of 6:40 is way too late, considering 4gate push would be at 5:30. U woulda done better with an early pressure. Next time if u plan to expand early, i think a 12 forge opening would be better. 2. I think mass sentries as ur first few units was a bad decision. I notice u had about 7 sentries out, that was already 700 gas right there. That require you to drop early gas and take away probes from the mineral mining. When you fast expand, you wanna keep up ur mineral mining as high as possible till ur nexus is about 60-70%. Early gas + early nexus slow u down on production. 3. Teching way too slow. After 12 mins u only have 3 gates and 1 robo as ur production building. If you expand and dont produce more unit than a 1 base build, u might as well 4gate, or 5 gate all in. 4. Map control. At one point ur hallucinated scout just stand in the middle of the map on top of the ling. U also saw him loading bane and lings with ur scout at the natural on to ovies and didnt react to it. I guess u couldnt really react too much since you didnt have the air tech to counter such drops. 5. This zerg cut drones at 41. Thats something no macro type zerg would do, ever. His build was pretty much an all in. It shouldnt be hard to counter. | ||
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Amandil
United States58 Posts
On March 16 2011 00:58 Udub wrote: 5. This zerg cut drones at 41. Thats something no macro type zerg would do, ever. His build was pretty much an all in. It shouldnt be hard to counter. "All in" is thrown around waaay to casually in these forums. Having constructed this timing attack myself the misinformation about how to counter it and what it is for is huge. Yes I do cut drones temporarily, however the resource count of the army i make is usually lower then the protoss that i'm attacking. Its a timing attack meant to damage sentry counts and workers. The resources invested into the lings and banelings for the attack is equivalent to around 10-12 roaches, which is common to make around 10 minutes anyway just to be safe to any warpgate pressure. Yet somehow any time a zerg is agressive, or not "macro type" its called "all in" even though I'm throwing up a third, getting up other techs as well as droning as the attack moves out (at 10 minutes i have 51 drones and a third halfway up). On March 16 2011 00:58 Udub wrote: Just watched ur replay. I didnt believe you were master until i look you up. 1. PvZ u either wanna pressure early to avoid massing up probe or possibly deny that expo, or fast expo. Your 3 gate expand at the mark of 6:40 is way too late, considering 4gate push would be at 5:30. U woulda done better with an early pressure. Next time if u plan to expand early, i think a 12 forge opening would be better. 2. I think mass sentries as ur first few units was a bad decision. I notice u had about 7 sentries out, that was already 700 gas right there. That require you to drop early gas and take away probes from the mineral mining. When you fast expand, you wanna keep up ur mineral mining as high as possible till ur nexus is about 60-70%. Early gas + early nexus slow u down on production. 3 gate expand is more standard then a 12 forge expand, so claiming its a better opening really doesnt have merit and is a discussion for another thread. 6-7 sentries off of a 3 gate expand is very very standard (even by pros) since they can accumulate energy which will help bolster any kind of push later or defense greatly. Also the sentries will be made before you have any idea what tech path the zerg is making. 6:40 is a bit late for a 3 gate expo, but not that late. The average protoss puts it down between 6:00-6:20 in my experience. I'm not really sure why i'm bothering to post in this thread any more, 3/4 of the posts didnt watch the replay or understand strategy to any half decent level. | ||
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whomybuddy
United States620 Posts
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DjayEl
France252 Posts
What can I say ? Amandil you're a f******* genius. I don't think there is an easy way to counter this, other than reworking P strategy (when to attack and why) and wait for a metagame shift. I awlays found this game would change entirely as soon as zergs understand the power of banelings against Protoss, and more and more use them against P. This unit is just the more powerful unit in the current zerg arsenal and I would not be surprised to see it nerfed eventually. Personnally I only play ling/bane/corruptor on the ladder now (high diamond) and my P opponents really have a hard time beating me (not bragging or anything, I'm quite bad actually but... we must admit banes (and drop) are _really_ powerful). | ||
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ABCSFirebird
Germany90 Posts
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
I'm gonna try this against soe protoss friends and maybe then I can suggest somethign useful they came up with. | ||
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ccJroy
United States483 Posts
The problem with pure gateway units is the splash/bonus damage is just substantially high against most of the gateway units besides stalkers. Adding in 2 units, immortals and archons, both of which can tank tons and tons of banelings before they go down, with proper positioning/micro you should be able to take the grunt force of the baneling drop (ASSUMING THERE NOT ATTEMPTING TO MICRO THE EXACT TARGET OF BANELINGS WHILE THERE DROPPED). Just a thought, my method to beat the mass bling/ling strats on 3 base or aggressive third (Build Incontrol was posting about) was heavy archon play because the splash is just so devastating with any upgrades. | ||
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familyguy123
92 Posts
3200 master if that means anything. | ||
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CookieMaker
Canada880 Posts
-first thing i noticed was the small force (1z3s) you moved out of your base at the start with. As a zerg player, this is simply a gift. Eight very cost-effective lings would RUIN those 3 sentries (who cares about the zealot?) or at the very least make you spend all of your energy on a retreat. He had his lings very well spread (as a zerg should against a 3gate FE) and caught u moving out. I'm not sure if he even had 8 lings (i think he had 6) but it's not uncommon to make an extra set or two to pressure the FE (and force FF's). Even if he had consolidated his lings there he could've very well damaged your precious sentries and forced you to build more sentries before teching. -Same thing, only a couple minutes later (right before your first Hallu'). This time 6 sentries 1 z i think, and again, easily and cost-effectively RAPED by speedlings. I would gladly sacrifice my entire army of lings to kill that (or force a TON of FF's with decent micro) because it means you have zero defense against mass ling until lots of cannons are up or z's can be massed. It's simply too cost-effective of a trade for you to be moving out with 1z+sentries. The zerg is either going to straight drone, or straight surround. -Hallucinations.... love them. Great for scouting, even great for warding off an attack by beefing your army. You made at least 3 that i saw, but simply didn't interpret the information they got correctly. As stated by several previous posters, quick lair + no evo + banesnest + no roach/hydra den indicates things by process of elimination. --->No upgrades. The newly introduced zvp with baneling openings gets upgrades started right away and delays the lair until around the time of a quick 3rd, mainly relying on huge masses of lings. What you saw resembled that, but no upgrades and quick lair w/o any gas-tech buildings means only one thing. ---->That gas has to go somewhere. He's upgrading at the hatch (ovies and burrow) and making a shitton of banelings. I also noticed that despite having no pressure on you until the main rush, your gas was soaring above your minerals. I can understand that you weren't sure exactly how to respond to this so it threw you off and I don't fault you for it at all, unless your BO didn't change at all after scouting it, in which case, your build needs to forego the 4th gas in favour of minerals until it becomes required. GL with defending this again next time :D | ||
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PaPoolee
Netherlands660 Posts
On March 16 2011 00:58 Udub wrote: Just watched ur replay. I didnt believe you were master until i look you up. 1. PvZ u either wanna pressure early to avoid massing up probe or possibly deny that expo, or fast expo. Your 3 gate expand at the mark of 6:40 is way too late, considering 4gate push would be at 5:30. U woulda done better with an early pressure. Next time if u plan to expand early, i think a 12 forge opening would be better. 2. I think mass sentries as ur first few units was a bad decision. I notice u had about 7 sentries out, that was already 700 gas right there. That require you to drop early gas and take away probes from the mineral mining. When you fast expand, you wanna keep up ur mineral mining as high as possible till ur nexus is about 60-70%. Early gas + early nexus slow u down on production. 3. Teching way too slow. After 12 mins u only have 3 gates and 1 robo as ur production building. If you expand and dont produce more unit than a 1 base build, u might as well 4gate, or 5 gate all in. 4. Map control. At one point ur hallucinated scout just stand in the middle of the map on top of the ling. U also saw him loading bane and lings with ur scout at the natural on to ovies and didnt react to it. I guess u couldnt really react too much since you didnt have the air tech to counter such drops. 5. This zerg cut drones at 41. Thats something no macro type zerg would do, ever. His build was pretty much an all in. It shouldnt be hard to counter. You didn't believe i was masters until you looked me up? i would LOVE to see you play PvZ. | ||
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PaPoolee
Netherlands660 Posts
On March 16 2011 04:18 CookieMaker wrote: Hey man, I really like the build you did as toss and strongly advocate the macro toss to end-game but there were definitely some snags in your BO and execution despite having no pressure to contend with early. -first thing i noticed was the small force (1z3s) you moved out of your base at the start with. As a zerg player, this is simply a gift. Eight very cost-effective lings would RUIN those 3 sentries (who cares about the zealot?) or at the very least make you spend all of your energy on a retreat. He had his lings very well spread (as a zerg should against a 3gate FE) and caught u moving out. I'm not sure if he even had 8 lings (i think he had 6) but it's not uncommon to make an extra set or two to pressure the FE (and force FF's). Even if he had consolidated his lings there he could've very well damaged your precious sentries and forced you to build more sentries before teching. -Same thing, only a couple minutes later (right before your first Hallu'). This time 6 sentries 1 z i think, and again, easily and cost-effectively RAPED by speedlings. I would gladly sacrifice my entire army of lings to kill that (or force a TON of FF's with decent micro) because it means you have zero defense against mass ling until lots of cannons are up or z's can be massed. It's simply too cost-effective of a trade for you to be moving out with 1z+sentries. The zerg is either going to straight drone, or straight surround. -Hallucinations.... love them. Great for scouting, even great for warding off an attack by beefing your army. You made at least 3 that i saw, but simply didn't interpret the information they got correctly. As stated by several previous posters, quick lair + no evo + banesnest + no roach/hydra den indicates things by process of elimination. --->No upgrades. The newly introduced zvp with baneling openings gets upgrades started right away and delays the lair until around the time of a quick 3rd, mainly relying on huge masses of lings. What you saw resembled that, but no upgrades and quick lair w/o any gas-tech buildings means only one thing. ---->That gas has to go somewhere. He's upgrading at the hatch (ovies and burrow) and making a shitton of banelings. I also noticed that despite having no pressure on you until the main rush, your gas was soaring above your minerals. I can understand that you weren't sure exactly how to respond to this so it threw you off and I don't fault you for it at all, unless your BO didn't change at all after scouting it, in which case, your build needs to forego the 4th gas in favour of minerals until it becomes required. GL with defending this again next time :D Yeah i didn't know what he was doing, didn't know the most effective response so i decided to tech up to colossi real fast, hence the 4th gas! i know how to stop it now, and i have posted the replay about a couple of posts under page four, people need to stop saying this is an all-in! his army was around 1400 resources only and considering the damage you could do with that much resources, i would say its a pretty good investment!. | ||
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Johnny_Vegas
United States239 Posts
A few points however... 1. Ovies with speed are slower than sentries and MUCH slower than Stalkers, so if you suspect baneling drop is coming, it should be possible to get a decent spread on your units. If instead of banes he tricks you and drops lings, they'll be coming out of ovies 1 at a time, and he'll take heavy losses. 2. Protecting probe lines from baneling drops is all about reaction time and micro. If you don't see the ovies well enough ahead of time (via perimeter buildings/scouts) I imagine it is going to be very hard to run/split your workers. 3. It takes 9 banes to kill a stalker, 3 banes to kill a sentry. If you let your 2.25 speed sentries get clumped and bombed by 1.875 speed Overlords, then you micro'ed poorly. I am fully confident that Protoss will be able to stop this build in the future, after just a small amount of experience dealing with it. The numbers don't lend themselves in zerg's favor, the only way it works is if you catch your opponent off guard or he makes significant micro mistakes. I've had games where I've attempted to baneling drop toss deathballs, and had them simply run away and kite my overlords, forcing me to abandon the "bombing run". If overlords were faster baneling bombs would be near unstoppable, unfortunately for zerg the only unit a speed ovie can catch are Thors and off creep Queens! | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On March 14 2011 05:15 PaPoolee wrote: You just stated two very different things, you said that i should put cannons in my main AND natural, now you're saying that i should do that by the time the attack comes and have my army that big + have one-two colossi out? our income was even it's not like the end of the word for the zerg to be on two base against a two basing protoss mid-game! mind if i ask how high up the ladder are you? i think the hallucination is a good idea, then again he is not walking the banelings into my army he is dropping them ONTOP of my army! and how much more apm would i need to hallucinate + run both my expo probes away and micro them so that they don't die to the overlords following them with banelings inside! you don't get it, sorry but putting 4-5 extra cannons is definitely not viable. Well mid-game it's gameover if they went roachhydra and it's 2base vs 2base, just thought I'd point that out. I lose ALL THE TIME with 5 base vs 2 base toss. | ||
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KillerPlague
United States1386 Posts
3500 masters if it means anything edit: sigh for everyone saying you have the wrong unit composition. he could have made the colossus faster since there was absolutely no threat of air, but other than that his units were fine. the whole problem is dumbed down the the fact that amandil overmade on banelings. the protoss clumped everything together and lost his army. if his army were spread the few lings left over would easily be cleaned up and the zerg would instantly lose to a counter attack. ive played amandil a few times so if he tries this on me ill be sure to post the replay of how to not clump and show you how bad banelings are vs stalker, colossus. | ||
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Nooreo
United States9 Posts
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