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Seriously more terrans just need to weave an engineering bay into their build. I get how tempting the notion is to not "waste" resources on putting down an e-bay relatively early on in case they are not going dt's but the reality is that way too many times, pro gamers end up losing games because they get caught by surprise by dt's.
I also refused to get an unnecessary ebay for a long time but eventually I had to concede to the fact that most protoss openings are extremely subtle and hiding tech is very easy for protoss. You just need so much information to be certain that dt's are not coming relatively early on that it will end up costing you more resources to find out than the cost of the ebay and two turrets.
Just scanning their base once is more expensive due to delayed income from not dropping that MULE. And even then that scan is more likely than not to not actually show you their tech, scouting their army is also not at all conclusive because even if you see a lack of gas in their army mix they can be hiding units, or that gas could be in voidrays.
In the end, depending on map just get an ebay and one turret at the ramp just before the earliest dt timing, and then get a turret in your mineral line. And then try to figure out how to make additional use of that ebay instead to not make it a mineral sink, get early upgrades worked into your build or just use turrets to deny observers.
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On February 19 2011 07:45 VanGarde wrote:
Seriously more terrans just need to weave an engineering bay into their build. I get how tempting the notion is to not "waste" resources on putting down an e-bay relatively early on in case they are not going dt's but the reality is that way too many times, pro gamers end up losing games because they get caught by surprise by dt's.
Tbh, TvP is such a difficult matchup at the moment that your build is either perfectly crisp in what it's trying to achieve, or you're already in a bad spot. I have NO idea how, until the time you have 2 bases saturated, you afford a random engineering bay and 1-2 missile turrets. The timings are so precise that 1-2 delayed Barracks/Bunkers/Tech in the early-mid game will completely wreck you.
Unless you get the EB standard in your build to serve a higher purpose (Upgrades, or how Mech players zone their base against Observers/Stargate Play/Drop Play), I would suggest against dropping a random EB and turrets without having at least a hint of what's coming.
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Blazinghand
United States25553 Posts
I think the best way to deal with DTs, if you don't want to climb that tech tree, is to slap down a ghost academy and make a few ghosts. They'll be useful in general vs a variety of protoss units, and you can use the EMP to reveal observers and DTs when you're not in base-- the perfect compliment to a 1- or 2- base bio push.
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Scout ramp, as I said. I faced a protoss yesterday on DQ who went DT warp rush.
Block both ramps, and scout their ramp. No sentry = DT or proxy VR. Either or you want a starport. I'll post a replay if you want? I'm low master, 2850pts
If they DT, just continue 1-1-1 marine tank raven banshee and throw in some maras for shells and just push and win. Their unit count wont be able to handle yours if you handle the DTs well
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Yeah DTs are annoying ... especially when they try to incorporate warp prisms on maps with lots of air space. ( DQ ) Getting a starport becomes necessary. The whole point of DTs is to keep you in your base or at least make you hesitate to move out so daringly while they get eco up for the big guys. It's also annoying when they mix DTs up with the zealots so you have to save scans for battles at their end.
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1 turret in your main mineral line and 1 or 2 turrets near the ramp and/or natural - map dependant. Keep some army close enough to attack the ramp.
Turrets are good for DTs, phoenix harrass, sniping observers / denying scouting, not horrible against void rays and can attack collosi.
Net investment of 200 - 300 minerals that will shut down 1 "scary" unit, help hide tech, kill expensive scouts (100 minerals trade for 25/75, absolutely!) and useful in general defense.
When my attention is elsewhere and I hear my turrets fire off a few volleys in TvP, it makes me smile that another observer has gone down.
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I usually put 2 turrets up in my main and 3 at my natural after 1 rax fe. You want those turrets up at 7 minutes, just in case.
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On February 19 2011 07:26 seejay2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 11:22 iChau wrote:On February 18 2011 11:19 Froadac wrote:On February 18 2011 11:07 iChau wrote:
One missle turret in mineral line and one at the ramp. This is better than relying on scans (which means you can use mules) and that insurance is DEFINiTELY worth it because it shuts down DT's. His army will be small, so he'll most likely lose after you push him when you shut down his harassment.
However, remember to have 2-3 marines near each missle turret.
Getting a raven, imo, is not a good idea because you're investing just as much. Depends on tech path. You actually do need a raven to push out... If you are only on rax, probably not. If you already have a starport ravens are indeed useful with PDD> Yes, kind of. I guess it depends. He'll eventually be starved of gas because DT's cost so much gas so he HAS to expand. Saving up scans to rid of DT's so you can destroy as many pylons/economy as possible seems like a good idea to me, because slowly getting a raven can let him tech up to something else or just expand. I think just simply forcing him to create sentries early (pressure) will allow you to delay the DT's by a pretty nice while. Terran does not need to invest much into getting a raven. A quick swap from reactor to tech lab and pump 1 raven then switch back. Yes it sets to back on medivacs, but it is soooo much less then what the protoss had to invest to get the dt's. Now you don't need to constantly scan when you push. So imo raven's usefulness WITH PDD (which is so lame T_T) is so strong in an engagement with the most likely smaller protoss army (since he went dt's).
k thanks for correcting me xD.
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Since i pretty much always apply some kind of early pressure against protoss i can usually see their unit composition at their ramp (or if they went for an early expand).
If i dont see an expo, or a bunch of sentrys/stalker at their ramp i know there is some kind of tech going on and build an engineering bay. He really can be going only for either one of three things which is dt, stargate or robo with the latter usually having more gateway units arround than the former two (sometimes there might be early charge or blink as well but i usually dont worry too much about those). And if i expect either of those putting down the engi bay feels like the right thing to do since turrets help with both. (even help against 1 base collossus since they usually cant afford the range upgrade if they already sacrificed so much to get the colos out)
I usually plant one turret at my ramp and one in my mineral line.
If i feel too clueles after 7 min i sometimes use a scan or a building-scout.
If i find it really is DTs i'll keep some units at my base; if i think i can hold it i just might put down a turret at their choke/natural as well and keep the majority of my forces there to keep him from getting an expansion/map control. Iam also going to keep one scan saved up on every OC at all times.
After that i'll get a raven sometime soon but i wont rush for it/screw up up game plan in order to get it.
Generally i find DT openings the most comforable for myself, since it costs a ton therefore completely negating major sentry usage and also doesnt get out too soon thanks to the shrines long build time
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On February 18 2011 11:07 iChau wrote:
One missle turret in mineral line and one at the ramp. This is better than relying on scans (which means you can use mules) and that insurance is DEFINiTELY worth it because it shuts down DT's. His army will be small, so he'll most likely lose after you push him when you shut down his harassment.
However, remember to have 2-3 marines near each missle turret.
Getting a raven, imo, is not a good idea because you're investing just as much.
Seems to me even if you shut down his harrasment unless you have a raven or alot minerals to spend on turrets along the way that you can't really push out dispite the size of his army all he has to do is warp in more dt's and have them engage you 1 at a time to bait the scans out and if he had any decent harass in your base he should at least have some idea at how many scans you can potentially afford.
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EPT
