EPTMy issue with Delta Quadrant is once the pylon goes down above your natural w/Destructible rocks I find myself dead unless I have a raven. Should i go for an early raven on DQ? Other maps are slightly more manageable because a turret at ramp can generally keep me safe.
[D] TvP DTs
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noveyak
United States35 Posts
My issue with Delta Quadrant is once the pylon goes down above your natural w/Destructible rocks I find myself dead unless I have a raven. Should i go for an early raven on DQ? Other maps are slightly more manageable because a turret at ramp can generally keep me safe. | ||
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Ulfsark
United States958 Posts
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
However, remember to have 2-3 marines near each missle turret. Getting a raven, imo, is not a good idea because you're investing just as much. | ||
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
On February 18 2011 11:07 iChau wrote: One missle turret in mineral line and one at the ramp. This is better than relying on scans (which means you can use mules) and that insurance is DEFINiTELY worth it because it shuts down DT's. His army will be small, so he'll most likely lose after you push him when you shut down his harassment. However, remember to have 2-3 marines near each missle turret. Getting a raven, imo, is not a good idea because you're investing just as much. Depends on tech path. You actually do need a raven to push out... If you are only on rax, probably not. If you already have a starport ravens are indeed useful with PDD> | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On February 18 2011 11:19 Froadac wrote: Depends on tech path. You actually do need a raven to push out... If you are only on rax, probably not. If you already have a starport ravens are indeed useful with PDD> Yes, kind of. I guess it depends. He'll eventually be starved of gas because DT's cost so much gas so he HAS to expand. Saving up scans to rid of DT's so you can destroy as many pylons/economy as possible seems like a good idea to me, because slowly getting a raven can let him tech up to something else or just expand. I think just simply forcing him to create sentries early (pressure) will allow you to delay the DT's by a pretty nice while. | ||
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JerKy
Korea (South)3013 Posts
On February 18 2011 11:07 iChau wrote: One missle turret in mineral line and one at the ramp. This is better than relying on scans (which means you can use mules) and that insurance is DEFINiTELY worth it because it shuts down DT's. His army will be small, so he'll most likely lose after you push him when you shut down his harassment. However, remember to have 2-3 marines near each missle turret. Getting a raven, imo, is not a good idea because you're investing just as much. Pretty much summarizes it. I'd really emphasize getting a raven because Protoss players will often use DT's to gain some map control or make the terran defensive while grabbing a Nexus. Without a raven, you continually need to burn scans to keep your army alive. Getting out a raven allows you to move about freely as well as make a strong push on the protoss if need be (as investing in DT's and a Nexus will keep the protoss army relatively small) | ||
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DuFFmAn69
United States78 Posts
as for your DQ situation, build a supply depo at the bottom of your ramp so you can scout their proxi pylon and hopefully kill it before it goes up. oh and if you're looking for specific build orders check out liquipedia. =] | ||
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Deleted User 109835
629 Posts
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xciLe
Norway213 Posts
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hocash
United States82 Posts
Early pressure often wins it right away if I miss a force field or for some reason forget my sentry or get greedy is saving up gas. Turret at the ramp discourages my dt play. But I do use it for map control. If you go raven you have movement but need multiple ravens if you expand beyond your natural expo. I'd say Terran should ALWAYS push early vs. Protoss. Otherwise you sacrifice map control and will lose the economic battle vs. Toss as he expands faster than you. Dts are SO strong vs. Terran. If you don't have the turrets up on your mineral line it should be game over vs. a good toss. Spread the dts out, kill off any turrets being built, and harass army/probes and tech add ons at once. | ||
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hocash
United States82 Posts
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OverZero
United States271 Posts
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
DT's are one of the reasons I like 1/1/1 so much. If you see 3-4 Gates but no expo and no 4 gate attack you can be pretty sure he's going to be coming at you with DT shenanigans, and while Turrets will work, you're now completely contained until you get a Raven. | ||
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Robellicose
England245 Posts
Hope this helps - its the way that my friend totally prevents me using the cheap as all hell warp in like that on Delta Quadrant  | ||
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n0ise
3452 Posts
Here's the By-The-Book DT Thingy Against basic DT rush you need to - assess the timing of the second gas (if it's early, i.e finishes before Core, it can be tech), scout the front and see the gas allocation (i.e, are there sentries, are there zealots), and pick up on any clue about what he's doing (i.e, do you see an observer it's Robo, or an early expo, or obviously a non-hallucinated Pheonix - in these cases, it's not DT). With all those in consideration, if you find yourself at 6.30-7.00 in the game and you have no idea what he's doing yet have a feeling it could be DTs, there's the dealing with it - Missile Turrets are the best *if* your opener does NOT include tech to starport. Raven is better if you have a Starport. I would also advice that in the situation that you DO expect DTs, hold on Scans until your detection is up. GL in your further dealings against Protoss ^^ | ||
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Bommes
Germany1226 Posts
Most terrans just don't do it because they forget about it or don't care, but it was a common mistake in SC:BW (especially low level) and it still is a common mistake now to forget about detection. And I'm not really a raven fan yet, they aren't bad, but I wouldn't recommend getting one in advance just because you are afraid of DTs. It's pretty common to do that, and I did it in the past, but exaggerated you will get an opening that relies on getting a siege tank, a ghost, a raven and a cloaked banshee and THEN you will expand. It's just not very logical to get the highest tech units in the game just to be safe from a potential opener that might never come at all. And imo ravens are pretty bad, because no one really has figured out how to use them correctly. They might be very useful in the future, but atm I haven't really seen anyone use them properly besides the infamous polt push, which just exploits that PDD is insane at low unit counts. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
There are a few tell tale signs. No sentry, in my experience. Go 1-1-1, make a hellion first, and just run it into the base and all around it. There's about no way they'll kill it unless they have 2 stalkers and a zeal at the ramp. Check gasses. If you see few stalkers, and a twilight council expect it. Run hellions all over the map. If he opens DTs and you early raven, PRESS PRESS PRESS after you kill the proxy pylon and the first volley. In my experience, protoss players expo behind the DTs and just gateway you down to death. The only time I really rush for dts is on DQ, I usually put a pylon in the non-rocked natural and warp in over the gap there. The best solution is probably to either pressure early, scout for proxy pylons, and getting that really early raven. Thats the best advice I can give, I'm pretty bad with terran... :/ Good on you for pointing that out. Block BOTH ramps if you must, but definitly the one to the natural with rocks. 4 gates on DQ are downright ass raping dirty, let alone DTs. Try to avoid using scans, as they just separate DTs and continue to harass. As many say, turrets. Just remember it's for VISION, not for anti air, so you can space them out accordingly. I think a blue flame -> marine thor raven banshee push is a solid open on DQ most times for me. It's a bad map for bio, IMO. Well, depends on the spawn locations. | ||
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seejay2
United States86 Posts
On February 18 2011 11:22 iChau wrote: Yes, kind of. I guess it depends. He'll eventually be starved of gas because DT's cost so much gas so he HAS to expand. Saving up scans to rid of DT's so you can destroy as many pylons/economy as possible seems like a good idea to me, because slowly getting a raven can let him tech up to something else or just expand. I think just simply forcing him to create sentries early (pressure) will allow you to delay the DT's by a pretty nice while. Terran does not need to invest much into getting a raven. A quick swap from reactor to tech lab and pump 1 raven then switch back. Yes it sets to back on medivacs, but it is soooo much less then what the protoss had to invest to get the dt's. Now you don't need to constantly scan when you push. So imo raven's usefulness WITH PDD (which is so lame T_T) is so strong in an engagement with the most likely smaller protoss army (since he went dt's). | ||
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NeWeNiyaLord
Norway2474 Posts
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VanGarde
Sweden755 Posts
I also refused to get an unnecessary ebay for a long time but eventually I had to concede to the fact that most protoss openings are extremely subtle and hiding tech is very easy for protoss. You just need so much information to be certain that dt's are not coming relatively early on that it will end up costing you more resources to find out than the cost of the ebay and two turrets. Just scanning their base once is more expensive due to delayed income from not dropping that MULE. And even then that scan is more likely than not to not actually show you their tech, scouting their army is also not at all conclusive because even if you see a lack of gas in their army mix they can be hiding units, or that gas could be in voidrays. In the end, depending on map just get an ebay and one turret at the ramp just before the earliest dt timing, and then get a turret in your mineral line. And then try to figure out how to make additional use of that ebay instead to not make it a mineral sink, get early upgrades worked into your build or just use turrets to deny observers. | ||
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n0ise
3452 Posts
On February 19 2011 07:45 VanGarde wrote: Seriously more terrans just need to weave an engineering bay into their build. I get how tempting the notion is to not "waste" resources on putting down an e-bay relatively early on in case they are not going dt's but the reality is that way too many times, pro gamers end up losing games because they get caught by surprise by dt's. Tbh, TvP is such a difficult matchup at the moment that your build is either perfectly crisp in what it's trying to achieve, or you're already in a bad spot. I have NO idea how, until the time you have 2 bases saturated, you afford a random engineering bay and 1-2 missile turrets. The timings are so precise that 1-2 delayed Barracks/Bunkers/Tech in the early-mid game will completely wreck you. Unless you get the EB standard in your build to serve a higher purpose (Upgrades, or how Mech players zone their base against Observers/Stargate Play/Drop Play), I would suggest against dropping a random EB and turrets without having at least a hint of what's coming. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25557 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
Block both ramps, and scout their ramp. No sentry = DT or proxy VR. Either or you want a starport. I'll post a replay if you want? I'm low master, 2850pts If they DT, just continue 1-1-1 marine tank raven banshee and throw in some maras for shells and just push and win. Their unit count wont be able to handle yours if you handle the DTs well | ||
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ZeNd0kUn
United States331 Posts
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falcoiii
Canada43 Posts
Turrets are good for DTs, phoenix harrass, sniping observers / denying scouting, not horrible against void rays and can attack collosi. Net investment of 200 - 300 minerals that will shut down 1 "scary" unit, help hide tech, kill expensive scouts (100 minerals trade for 25/75, absolutely!) and useful in general defense. When my attention is elsewhere and I hear my turrets fire off a few volleys in TvP, it makes me smile that another observer has gone down. | ||
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The.Doctor
Canada333 Posts
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On February 19 2011 07:26 seejay2 wrote: Terran does not need to invest much into getting a raven. A quick swap from reactor to tech lab and pump 1 raven then switch back. Yes it sets to back on medivacs, but it is soooo much less then what the protoss had to invest to get the dt's. Now you don't need to constantly scan when you push. So imo raven's usefulness WITH PDD (which is so lame T_T) is so strong in an engagement with the most likely smaller protoss army (since he went dt's). k thanks for correcting me xD. | ||
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Icemind
Germany570 Posts
If i dont see an expo, or a bunch of sentrys/stalker at their ramp i know there is some kind of tech going on and build an engineering bay. He really can be going only for either one of three things which is dt, stargate or robo with the latter usually having more gateway units arround than the former two (sometimes there might be early charge or blink as well but i usually dont worry too much about those). And if i expect either of those putting down the engi bay feels like the right thing to do since turrets help with both. (even help against 1 base collossus since they usually cant afford the range upgrade if they already sacrificed so much to get the colos out) I usually plant one turret at my ramp and one in my mineral line. If i feel too clueles after 7 min i sometimes use a scan or a building-scout. If i find it really is DTs i'll keep some units at my base; if i think i can hold it i just might put down a turret at their choke/natural as well and keep the majority of my forces there to keep him from getting an expansion/map control. Iam also going to keep one scan saved up on every OC at all times. After that i'll get a raven sometime soon but i wont rush for it/screw up up game plan in order to get it. Generally i find DT openings the most comforable for myself, since it costs a ton therefore completely negating major sentry usage and also doesnt get out too soon thanks to the shrines long build time | ||
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terranghost
United States980 Posts
On February 18 2011 11:07 iChau wrote: One missle turret in mineral line and one at the ramp. This is better than relying on scans (which means you can use mules) and that insurance is DEFINiTELY worth it because it shuts down DT's. His army will be small, so he'll most likely lose after you push him when you shut down his harassment. However, remember to have 2-3 marines near each missle turret. Getting a raven, imo, is not a good idea because you're investing just as much. Seems to me even if you shut down his harrasment unless you have a raven or alot minerals to spend on turrets along the way that you can't really push out dispite the size of his army all he has to do is warp in more dt's and have them engage you 1 at a time to bait the scans out and if he had any decent harass in your base he should at least have some idea at how many scans you can potentially afford. | ||
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