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On February 13 2011 11:32 farseerdk wrote:
I got into diamond with 70ish APM. Now in master I'm about 120. 180 is enough to be a pro. SC2 is not that demanding APM-wise, so don't worry about it. I actually play BW at about 180 APM, so it's not that I'm in capable of playing that fast, I'm just not good enough at SC2 to fully utilize that.
120 SC2 APM is very close or more than 180 BW APM :p
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I think all you need at gold level is a good build with a FE except in pvp, after that if you keep your money low and build worker when he gets at 100 supply you'll be at 150 already.
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On February 14 2011 00:12 telfire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2011 11:32 farseerdk wrote:
I got into diamond with 70ish APM. Now in master I'm about 120. 180 is enough to be a pro. SC2 is not that demanding APM-wise, so don't worry about it. I actually play BW at about 180 APM, so it's not that I'm in capable of playing that fast, I'm just not good enough at SC2 to fully utilize that. 120 SC2 APM is very close or more than 180 BW APM :p
lol I gave a decent game to pit(top 200 terran) in tl open yesterday and I have like 50-55 apm...
APM will never hold back anyone as long as you think of doing everything. If you forgot a supply it's about 3 apm and if you thought about building it, i'm pretty sure your hand speed would've been able to handle it.
Sc2 is more about mechanics and understanding of the game than handspeed
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On February 13 2011 13:18 RoyBrown wrote:
I think your underestimating lower leagues. That's all Im saying.
The difference between each league is very subtle, I agree bronze is pretty retarded, and the low ranked silver league players are pretty crap.
I'd love to see you win 13 games in a row beating every race in gold league, just making stalkers till max army, then using 1a through marauders/hydras.
You would have to win a long time before, maybe 4 gate them.
Just sounds like a bullshit theorycrafted strategy.
If you havnt ever been in gold league, I dont see how its even valid posting something like that in this thread.
Is that a joke post? I've won like 40 custom games in a row just doing macro until they move out and then a-move to kill their army, vs bronze-diamond and I'm not even good... Please give me 13 gold players on EU, they can even pick my race.
Vs anything below Diamond I guarantee you that you can just make workers and Stalkers and win 99% of the time assuming you still have something like an observer to detect cloak.
I just played vs my gold league Terran friend and he made a total of 36 workers in a 20min game... it always is like that, you can just win with macro.
It's really arrogant of you to ask for advice, and when we give you true and tested advice, you just say it doesn't work.
Please test on a unit tester what happens when 10 stimmed marauders and 24 Stalkers fight with a-move. Yep, the Stalkers crush.
Oh yeah, and I bet you didn't know that 1 Stalker > 1 Hydra, or did you?
EDIT: So the tldr for beating gold leaguers is to keep making workers and macro well, avoid supplyblocks.
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On February 13 2011 12:56 RoyBrown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2011 12:43 DaemonX wrote:Honestly? Day9 provides the answer to get into the lower edge of diamond: 1) SCVs & Supply Depots / Probes & Pylons Seriously, if you never skipped a worker, never got supply blocked, you almost couldn't be in silver or below unless you never built a barracks. 2) Basic mechanics (ala Day9 #252). Work out basic mechanics and you will always, always have more stuff than a platinum or below player. Proof: The recent sc reddit experiment http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/f7e8j/seriously_guys_if_youre_in_platinum_or_below_your/ proves this is really the only solution. Sure it's a bit contraversial in some respects; but you cannot debate the basic premise: you can do a bad, thoughtless strategy, you can skip micro - it's all secondary till your macro is at parity. I honestly, dont believe that post, for one second. Just make stalkers? ....yeah thats going to work vs terrans who mmm with a huge consistency of marauders. And he says he's just using a 1a attack so I assume he isnt using micro. I have played some Silver league players who could beat Diamond league players, I seriously think posts like this are either 1) a lie or 2) a lie. That tactic might get you out of bronze but the second he hits silver league, LOL, he wont get out of it. Does he realise that in silver league once you hit rank 1 you play some platinum league players? Even in gold I have to beat diamond league players. Im sure as shit not going to use a bronze league build order to beat the plat/daimond league players I will be facing, as I gold league rank 1. I honestly think most people who say things like that got immediately placed in diamond. There is a shit ton more to making diamond then just making stalkers. Nice troll champ, but that wont help me. I agree that pylons and constantly making probes is cruicial, but there is a bit more to this game then that. Day9 is awesome.
I don't understand how you think this is a lie, there's a freaking replay pack. The point is, if you macro very well, you will be maxed out way before your opponent and so your unit composition doesnt matter at all. I'm sorry but you sound like an idiot, it's obviously true.
Yeah, you wouldn't do a bad BO against high level players because your macro probably isn't as good as the person who did it. Honestly you're denying something that is undeniably true.
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Your game vs. the diamond zerg definitely showed you needed to work on your macro. You had so few gateways when you put up the third and about 1k mins and gas. Funny enough (or is it ironically), if you did what the reddit guy did and built only stalkers and 1a'd that game, you would've easily won.
When you pushed at his base the first time, why did you stop? You most certainly would've won that engagement. About 5 hydras and two spine crawlers that were not even close to completing. He droned super hard and teched straight to hydras with about zero lings. I guess that's more decision making than macro but again, stalker mass +1a would've won you that game.
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I would like to start off by saying that this thread has been made many times and will be made again. Everyone that traverses Tl.net knows that pylons/probes in conjunction with >500 minerals and proper gas will get you diamond. I am a platinum level Zerg (I beat a lot of diamond though) and I have lots of problems that I can identify (starting with the minimap).
I would like to know the general premise for Zergs to get diamond because I feel it is different enough from t/p to be seperate.
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On February 14 2011 01:41 ixi.genocide wrote:
I would like to start off by saying that this thread has been made many times and will be made again. Everyone that traverses Tl.net knows that pylons/probes in conjunction with >500 minerals and proper gas will get you diamond. I am a platinum level Zerg (I beat a lot of diamond though) and I have lots of problems that I can identify (starting with the minimap).
I would like to know the general premise for Zergs to get diamond because I feel it is different enough from t/p to be seperate.
Watching day9 daily 194 and understanding it should be good enough for Zergs, assuming you still keep your mineral/gas below 500 each.
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^^
Yea I find that just macro is not good enough early game for zerg. You need to be able to identify the rough unit composition you're going to face which means (to an extent) you need to be able to recognise the builds of terran and protoss.
Nothing worse than droning up as zerg, and then seeing eight blue flame hellions appear on the map with only 1 queen and a handful of speedlings to deal with it  .
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On February 13 2011 11:15 RoyBrown wrote:
Is watching replays REALLY that important? as I pretty much never do it.
...........
are you trolling?
if you have access to some remote self-critique ability, paired with decent game knowledge and patience, 90% of your improvement will be thanks to watching own replays.
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On February 14 2011 03:59 danielsan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2011 11:15 RoyBrown wrote:
Is watching replays REALLY that important? as I pretty much never do it.
........... are you trolling? if you have access to some remote self-critique ability, paired with decent game knowledge and patience, 90% of your improvement will be thanks to watching own replays.
Actually I don't really watch my own replays. =D Maybe that's why I'm so bad.
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So I have a thread with a replay where my macro is probably better than my opponent but I still lose... but guess what? We're master league players.
We're not saying that working on macro will raise your rank the fastest, what we are saying is that if you work on macro you will be able to reach a higher rank (eventually) than if you focus on other things now. Working on things like cheese, micro, unit-comps etc. will get you into platinum in 2 weeks, but then you will sit there for like 3 months while you figure out your macro. If you work on macro now, you'll take a month to get into platinum and maybe another month to get into diamond.
Get it?
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On February 13 2011 13:18 RoyBrown wrote:
I think your underestimating lower leagues. That's all Im saying.
The difference between each league is very subtle, I agree bronze is pretty retarded, and the low ranked silver league players are pretty crap.
I'd love to see you win 13 games in a row beating every race in gold league, just making stalkers till max army, then using 1a through marauders/hydras.
You would have to win a long time before, maybe 4 gate them.
Just sounds like a bullshit theorycrafted strategy.
If you havnt ever been in gold league, I dont see how its even valid posting something like that in this thread.
I got out of gold into platinum on just marines and expansions alone. Mass marines, expanding constantly. Against any race on any position. If they were bad, the 2rax killed them. If they were decent, I'd kill them because my macro was so much better that the sentries eventually ran out of energy and their larva just wasn't plentiful enough. If they were good (I sometimes played against high plat/low diamond players) it just meant they died after I got my 3rd/4rth expansion up and running and I had about 9-10 barracks producing fully upgraded marines. I didn't start building medivacs and doing drops until I got to platinum.
Macro is what is needed.
My macro is still awful and needs improvement. But it's good enough to get out of gold.
And macro isn't simply spamming one unit. It's building workers, supply, production facilities, expanding, harassing and attacking constantly. It's easier to keep up with supply depot construction if you keep trading armies (don't throw your army, trade yours for his). If you have better macro than him, then by the third or 4rth time you've replaced your army, he won't have much left. You win soon after.
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On February 13 2011 13:18 RoyBrown wrote:
I think your underestimating lower leagues. That's all Im saying.
The difference between each league is very subtle, I agree bronze is pretty retarded, and the low ranked silver league players are pretty crap.
I'd love to see you win 13 games in a row beating every race in gold league, just making stalkers till max army, then using 1a through marauders/hydras.
You would have to win a long time before, maybe 4 gate them.
Just sounds like a bullshit theorycrafted strategy.
If you havnt ever been in gold league, I dont see how its even valid posting something like that in this thread.
lol do you seriously think any competent master league players can't destroy 13 gold players in a row just by making stalkers? Maybe you think "unit counters" are important, but I guarantee you a 200/200 army of stalkers will beat a marauder army at 100 supply or w/e a gold player would have in the time time it takes me to max out on stalkers. What I'm seeing here is an arrogant gold league player receiving advice from players who are way above gold, and telling them they are wrong... if they were wrong then how the hell did they get out of gold in the first place?
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Unit comp helps when macro between players is similar. Micro helps when the macro between two players is the same.
Watch the OGStop vs ScFou game on shakuras. ScFOu kept killing workings and killing armies winning engagements but since his macro was so much worse than OGStop's it didn't matter that ScFOu kept winning the battles, OGStop kept having a bigger army and kept having more scvs than his opponent and eventually won through sheer brute force.
Macro wins games.
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On February 14 2011 01:41 ixi.genocide wrote:
I would like to start off by saying that this thread has been made many times and will be made again. Everyone that traverses Tl.net knows that pylons/probes in conjunction with >500 minerals and proper gas will get you diamond. I am a platinum level Zerg (I beat a lot of diamond though) and I have lots of problems that I can identify (starting with the minimap).
I would like to know the general premise for Zergs to get diamond because I feel it is different enough from t/p to be seperate. This is more geared toward improving as a player, but there are certainly things in here that apply to all levels of skill. If you think anything sounds way beyond you, then it probably is, and you don't even have to be good at all of this to make masters.
Zerg is tricky to give advice for because with how the current mineral collection system works you are forced in to basically playing an economic all-in while making some baseline units depending on what you scout. Then you have to decide if that push is really coming now and you need units, if you can just power drones, or if you need some drones and some units in case that push cames after the next inject batch. I watch a lot of low level zergs because I have a lot of friends who play zerg. Their biggest mistakes tend to be related to the following:
(1) You have to know when to pull drones, when to run drones, and when not to while defending. Rule of thumb: if the attack is early and you don't know if you can win it cleanly just defend with your piddly army and drones. If you have a big army then move the drones away and let your army get there.
(2) You have to understand the position you want to engage in while defending, and you have to be able to effectively split up your otherwise useless melee blob of drones/lings. If you're hitting SCVs with speedlings or running them single file vs a 4rax marine all-in you are doing it wrong.
(3) Don't miss injects or let larva get too high if you have resources !! If you suddenly have a burst of larva when you hit your hatchery hotkey you should know it's inject time, but you should probably have enough free actions to just check the inject time yourself when you think it's time. You can inject -> micro -> inject -> micro or move away->inject x3, but you need to be on top of the injects.
(4) Don't lose anything that isn't a patch of zerglings needlessly. Losing a zergling or twelve to some sieged tanks while you are poking around is a-okay as long as the rest of your zerglings and army move backward before that second volley of murder.
(5) Another big thing is SCOUT. You can leave gaps in your scouting of the enemy's base if you have enough game sense to know what he COULD be doing and that you can prepare for it without setting yourself back much. But if you are doing nothing, just send one ling here and another there. It's ALWAYS worth checking expansions if you aren't about to get pushed. Those lings/overlords might even alert you to a drop or some other wacky maneuver.
Keep something outside of his base, keep something halfway between your base and his. You want to know if he is moving out. You NEED to know on some maps, because you can't even reactive spinecrawler on most of the current map pool.
(6) Your goal as zerg is never to death march on a base with a murder ball and win the game. It's always to make decisions that give you an advantage, don't lose the game, and set you up to eventually win. It's generally better to gain a bigger advantage through pressure/economy than it is to over commit. Zerg defense is to attack his army in a good position for you at a bad time for him. Zerg offense is to pressure something and force them in to that position.
If you lose too much in a captain caveman crush them all, bodies flung to the meatgrinder attack, you can't defend in a good position and will eventually lose because they established a good position near your base. The mindset certainly applies to other races, but the reality of attacking/defending only matters at certain timings for other races. For zerg it's all game.
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The example that comes to mind when I think of improving macro is when I started playing random. While I can play all three races at diamond level, the biggest difference that I have realized is that my macro slowly slips with my other two races. Whether it be late injects, lack of production facilities or just the plain old supply block, I can feel that I'm not nearly as far along as I would have been with my main race. So that's why I always advocate purely focusing on macro to my friends or lower level players who ask for advice. In the long run, learning some cutesy shit like two port banshee or thor allin isn't going to help you more than learning how to be 20-30 food ahead. I stick by the motto of "just have more shit than him and you'll win" attitude, because it's completely true.
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On February 14 2011 04:26 lorkac wrote:
Unit comp helps when macro between players is similar. Micro helps when the macro between two players is the same.
Macro wins games.
This is basically what it boils down to. It's similar to character tiers in fighting games - unless the two players are at very similar skill levels, the tiers don't mean much of anything. I can beat all of my friends with Pichu in Smash Bros, but that doesn't mean he's not vastly under-tiered, it just means I'm a better player. But if I play against someone as good as me and they use Marth, and I use Pichu, I'm gonna have a hard time. Not unwinnable, but definitely more difficult.
Character tiers = unit comp/micro/etc
Overall 'skill' = macro
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I am high gold as well (2800), so I read through this thread cause I had a loss treak yesterday against plat players and knew that I need to improve.
I did the thing everybody suggested, macro the hell out of it, out of my 7 matches today I won every game which I had the change to macro in (lost to one 6 pool and one double proxy gate).
After playing those games now I know why I lost yesterday, my macro was off and I didn't focus on one Build order per matchup.
So tomorrow and on I'm not going to do random attack timings and crazy/cheesy strats and I know macro is not anything, but my micro is actually quite good for my level, I normally win in a similar unit battle and I do a lot of focus-fireing (e.g Immortals -> Tank)
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On February 14 2011 06:15 FinnGamer wrote:
I am high gold as well (2800), so I read through this thread cause I had a loss treak yesterday against plat players and knew that I need to improve.
I did the thing everybody suggested, macro the hell out of it, out of my 7 matches today I won every game which I had the change to macro in (lost to one 6 pool and one double proxy gate).
After playing those games now I know why I lost yesterday, my macro was off and I didn't focus on one Build order per matchup.
So tomorrow and on I'm not going to do random attack timings and crazy/cheesy strats and I know macro is not anything, but my micro is actually quite good for my level, I normally win in a similar unit battle and I do a lot of focus-fireing (e.g Immortals -> Tank)
that's a poor example
a loss streak will force the match making system to pair you with very low level players, when compared both to yours and to the one of those that provoked the loss streak.
you didnt macro your way to victory, the match making won games for you.
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EPT
