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Hello TL peoples,
A quick background, SC2 is the first RTS game I have ever really enjoyed playing online, in other words its pretty much the only RTS I have really given a go to.
I started in bronze league but struggled to improve for a long time until I started watchin shoutcasts of the game, from people like HDgamer and Husky, however one day I heard about some guy called Day9 I think when watching a stream of Huk playing or something.
Day9 has helped improve my game in a huge way, I know feel like I fully understand how most things work.
Anyway, it's taken me a long time to get to gold league, I was never a PC gamer nor RTS player but I'm really enjoying SC2. I read this forum all the time, and boy has it helped me out a lot, especially that recent 3 roach play that required you to pump out quick stalkers or get some canons. This forum has helped me beat that a few times after scouting that quick roach warren.
My question is, how do I improve from here, what will get me into Diamond league?
If any of you guys made your way up the leagues, what did you do to improve?
Is watching replays REALLY that important? as I pretty much never do it.
Is having a practice partner a good idea?
Is having an APM average of 85 good enough? it only peaks at about 200 when shit hits the fan, or when I have a few bases.
---------------------- UPDATE
Ok Guys Updating this post now with two replays.
Im in Gold league, both games Im playing a diamond league player Showtime, hes pretty good but he pretty much has played very few 1v1 games in the last few months to say the least, and I think it showed in the first game.
Quick void ray into colossus build.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/138684-1v1-protoss-zerg-lost-temple
Out macroed hardcore.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/138683-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
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watching replays is really important. if you find there's a time when you're not building scvs or probes all the time, that could cause some serious issues.
Or how often are you missing your injects, are you taking full advantage of your money? Macro.
mostly just work on macro, is what you're going to hear from everyone here.
practice partners are always a good idea, it always helps to have someone to bounce builds off of, try various tactics, and just familiarize yourself with various situations.
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I can almost gaurentee that if you continually focus and improve your macro, the game will be so much easier for you at that level and you will easily get to platnium or higher. Find a good, safe expansion style build and stick to it.
Watching replays really helps if you know what you are looking for, such as timings and slowing down the speed of engagements to analyze your arc and position.
Practice partners help a ton, but only if you and him are commited and not just playing casually. (i.e. less than 2 hours a day)
Finally, don't focus on apm ever....
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One thing I can tell you for sure is APM isn't the problem at all.. I'm in diamond with 50 apm
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5 things that i can 100% guarantee to improve your game
1.) Constant probe production (pure macro gets you REALLY far)
2.) Practice Practice and some more practice just like any other hoby/sport this game takes time to get better at.
3.) Anallise your replays it is helpful to figure out what you are doing wrong
4.) A helpful control group set up that really helps you control your units well
5.) Friends to talk to you about your game play, it is really incredible how much you can learn by having a friend watch
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I got into diamond with 70ish APM. Now in master I'm about 120. 180 is enough to be a pro. SC2 is not that demanding APM-wise, so don't worry about it. I actually play BW at about 180 APM, so it's not that I'm in capable of playing that fast, I'm just not good enough at SC2 to fully utilize that.
I think you're a protoss player, right? Since you mention the stalker response to the 3 roach/ling all-in.
1) Never stop making probes.. EVER. There's an old BW saying that basically says "if you're not good enough to know when to stop making probes, you're not good enough to stop making probes".
2) Never stop making units. With protoss this is a little different because you use warpgates which work in cycles. The key here is never let your warpgates go idle.
3) Learn to use your scouting information, but it seems from your post that you're already doing a decently well, at least in PvZ.
4) Make sure your BO is tight. What does that mean? It means that if you intend to build a pylon, make it when you have 100 minerals, not 150 minerals. This implies moving a probe to the spot ahead of time, but not too early because you don't want to forgo mining time... etc. etc. This is very important before 7 minutes.
5) Later on in the game (past 7 minutes... before then, being "tight" implies very low money), keep your money low! If you're money gets high it means either 1) you're missing warp cycles (your gates are idle) or 2) you don't have enough gates. Fix this!
Replays are very useful when you want to get from plat to diamond. Before then, your time is better spent playing more games.
Practice partners are very helpful because it allows you to try new things without worrying about your record. It also takes away the temptation to cheese, which may inflate your ranking but won't make you get any better.
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Yes practice partners are very helpful, you can practice specifics and have someone to help in analyzing the rep.
I'm valheru.725 silver Terran SEA (I don't ladder that much mostly practice with other TLers) if you want a game.
My good computer broke so I won't be able to play for a while.
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Watch pro replays. Find a standard build for each matchup, find a clean and successful execution of it by a pro player, copy the build exactly(that even comes down to roughly the timing of the expansions and such, not just 9p 13g) , and then do it. Watch every single one of your replays and determine exactly what you did wrong in every single game, from your most devastating loss to your proudest victory. Find more replays of your build in different situations if possible so you can learn the correct responses to various things.
If you're a gold player, do not have more than 3 builds. One per matchup. If you're a Protoss player, just 3gate expand in PvZ, 2gate robo in PvT, and choose between either the 1gate robo that kcdc has been promoting(I understand it has flaws but it'll work on a gold player's fastest 4gate), a 1gas 4gate, or a more economic defensive 4gate in PvP. Those are all good openers and in every case other than 1gas 4gate rush they transition into standard mid and late game. you're trying to find pro replays of them in order to figure out how best to do that.
Also never look at something a pro does and just never do it because you think you can't. Sometimes it's best just to expect perfection out of yourself and really believe that you can do everything MC can do. Carelessly lost a colossus? Big mistake, don't do it again. 400 minerals off 2 bases? Unacceptable. Never, ever accept that you did a good job of anything until you're absolutely certain that there was objectively no way to do it better, for instance if your 9p goes down EXACTLY at 100 minerals at EXACTLY the spot it needed to be and the probe left no earlier than it had to. Knowing you did something perfectly is pretty much impossible in most cases so you should always be on the lookout for small flaws.
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Honestly?
Day9 provides the answer to get into the lower edge of diamond:
1) SCVs & Supply Depots / Probes & Pylons
Seriously, if you never skipped a worker, never got supply blocked, you almost couldn't be in silver or below unless you never built a barracks.
2) Basic mechanics (ala Day9 #252). Work out basic mechanics and you will always, always have more stuff than a platinum or below player.
Proof: The recent sc reddit experiment http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/f7e8j/seriously_guys_if_youre_in_platinum_or_below_your/ proves this is really the only solution.
Sure it's a bit contraversial in some respects; but you cannot debate the basic premise: you can do a bad, thoughtless strategy, you can skip micro - it's all secondary till your macro is at parity.
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On February 13 2011 12:43 DaemonX wrote:Honestly? Day9 provides the answer to get into the lower edge of diamond: 1) SCVs & Supply Depots / Probes & Pylons Seriously, if you never skipped a worker, never got supply blocked, you almost couldn't be in silver or below unless you never built a barracks. 2) Basic mechanics (ala Day9 #252). Work out basic mechanics and you will always, always have more stuff than a platinum or below player. Proof: The recent sc reddit experiment http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/f7e8j/seriously_guys_if_youre_in_platinum_or_below_your/ proves this is really the only solution. Sure it's a bit contraversial in some respects; but you cannot debate the basic premise: you can do a bad, thoughtless strategy, you can skip micro - it's all secondary till your macro is at parity.
I honestly, dont believe that post, for one second.
Just make stalkers?
....yeah thats going to work vs terrans who mmm with a huge consistency of marauders. And he says he's just using a 1a attack so I assume he isnt using micro.
I have played some Silver league players who could beat Diamond league players, I seriously think posts like this are either 1) a lie or 2) a lie.
That tactic might get you out of bronze but the second he hits silver league, LOL, he wont get out of it.
Does he realise that in silver league once you hit rank 1 you play some platinum league players?
Even in gold I have to beat diamond league players.
Im sure as shit not going to use a bronze league build order to beat the plat/daimond league players I will be facing, as I gold league rank 1.
I honestly think most people who say things like that got immediately placed in diamond.
There is a shit ton more to making diamond then just making stalkers.
Nice troll champ, but that wont help me.
I agree that pylons and constantly making probes is cruicial, but there is a bit more to this game then that. Day9 is awesome.
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On February 13 2011 12:56 RoyBrown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2011 12:43 DaemonX wrote:Honestly? Day9 provides the answer to get into the lower edge of diamond: 1) SCVs & Supply Depots / Probes & Pylons Seriously, if you never skipped a worker, never got supply blocked, you almost couldn't be in silver or below unless you never built a barracks. 2) Basic mechanics (ala Day9 #252). Work out basic mechanics and you will always, always have more stuff than a platinum or below player. Proof: The recent sc reddit experiment http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/f7e8j/seriously_guys_if_youre_in_platinum_or_below_your/ proves this is really the only solution. Sure it's a bit contraversial in some respects; but you cannot debate the basic premise: you can do a bad, thoughtless strategy, you can skip micro - it's all secondary till your macro is at parity. I honestly, dont believe that post, for one second. Just make stalkers? ....yeah thats going to work vs terrans who mmm with a huge consistency of marauders. And he says he's just using a 1a attack so I assume he isnt using micro. I have played some Silver league players who could beat Diamond league players, I seriously think posts like this are either 1) a lie or 2) a lie. That tactic might get you out of bronze but the second he hits silver league, LOL, he wont get out of it. Does he realise that in silver league once you hit rank 1 you play some platinum league players? Even in gold I have to beat diamond league players. Im sure as shit not going to use a bronze league build order to beat the plat/daimond league players I will be facing, as I gold league rank 1. I honestly think most people who say things like that got immediately placed in diamond. There is a shit ton more to making diamond then just making stalkers. Nice troll champ, but that wont help me. I agree that pylons and constantly making probes is cruicial, but there is a bit more to this game then that. Day9 is awesome.
That wasn't even a troll man... Or at least it didn't seem like it to me. The point is, the most important thing to work on is macro. The point of that stalker idea isn't to say it's a good idea to build stalkers. It's to try to show that you can win with only macro against players who have worse macro.
Yes there is more to the game than pylons and probes. But at lower levels you can win with basically only perfect pylons and probes (if that makes sense the way I said it). Concentrating on macro and ignoring almost everything else will help you the most. This is coming from someone who has helped train multiple people from bronze to diamond. Concentrating on other aspects will marginally improve your play. But why concentrate on other things when the most important thing at this point is macro. That's my two cents.
By the way if the part of that post you didn't believe was that a masters level player could beat a silver/gold building only stalkers. It's absolutely true. And that is only because of macro gaps. Work on the macro and you'll notice huge improvements in win rate!
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On February 13 2011 12:56 RoyBrown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2011 12:43 DaemonX wrote:Honestly? Day9 provides the answer to get into the lower edge of diamond: 1) SCVs & Supply Depots / Probes & Pylons Seriously, if you never skipped a worker, never got supply blocked, you almost couldn't be in silver or below unless you never built a barracks. 2) Basic mechanics (ala Day9 #252). Work out basic mechanics and you will always, always have more stuff than a platinum or below player. Proof: The recent sc reddit experiment http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/f7e8j/seriously_guys_if_youre_in_platinum_or_below_your/ proves this is really the only solution. Sure it's a bit contraversial in some respects; but you cannot debate the basic premise: you can do a bad, thoughtless strategy, you can skip micro - it's all secondary till your macro is at parity. I honestly, dont believe that post, for one second. Just make stalkers? ....yeah thats going to work vs terrans who mmm with a huge consistency of marauders. And he says he's just using a 1a attack so I assume he isnt using micro. I have played some Silver league players who could beat Diamond league players, I seriously think posts like this are either 1) a lie or 2) a lie. That tactic might get you out of bronze but the second he hits silver league, LOL, he wont get out of it. Does he realise that in silver league once you hit rank 1 you play some platinum league players? Even in gold I have to beat diamond league players. Im sure as shit not going to use a bronze league build order to beat the plat/daimond league players I will be facing, as I gold league rank 1. I honestly think most people who say things like that got immediately placed in diamond. There is a shit ton more to making diamond then just making stalkers. Nice troll champ, but that wont help me. I agree that pylons and constantly making probes is cruicial, but there is a bit more to this game then that. Day9 is awesome.
Actually, spending all your money, making non-stop workers (T & P), not getting supply blocked, and expanding whenever you can will get you to diamond. People always ask for help, and I go watch the rep, and I see the same thing every single time. Massive amounts of unspent resources, continuous supply blocks, idle production facilities (especially workers), and late or no expansions. Strategy won't help in these kinds of situations. I don't say this to brag or because I think I'm awesome or something, as I'm not, but I can do almost any strategy and still win against lower league players (sub diamond) because the strategy I choose doesn't matter when my opponent only has half (or less) the army and economy that he is supposed to. I simply roll over them with more stuff. Once you get the mechanics down, then you can start worrying about the rest, but until then, work on your macro, it really is that simple.
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On February 13 2011 12:56 RoyBrown wrote:
I have played some Silver league players who could beat Diamond league players,
If you can beat diamond players on anything resembling a consistent basis you'll be in diamond. It's that simple. And how can you say his post is a lie? There's proof. He posted proof.
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I think your underestimating lower leagues. That's all Im saying.
The difference between each league is very subtle, I agree bronze is pretty retarded, and the low ranked silver league players are pretty crap.
I'd love to see you win 13 games in a row beating every race in gold league, just making stalkers till max army, then using 1a through marauders/hydras.
You would have to win a long time before, maybe 4 gate them.
Just sounds like a bullshit theorycrafted strategy.
If you havnt ever been in gold league, I dont see how its even valid posting something like that in this thread.
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On February 13 2011 13:18 RoyBrown wrote:
I think your underestimating lower leagues. That's all Im saying.
The difference between each league is very subtle, I agree bronze is pretty retarded, and the low ranked silver league players are pretty crap.
I'd love to see you win 13 games in a row beating every race in gold league, just making stalkers till max army, then using 1a through marauders/hydras.
You would have to win a long time before, maybe 4 gate them.
Just sounds like a bullshit theorycrafted strategy.
If you havnt ever been in gold league, I dont see how its even valid posting something like that in this thread.
I'm done posting here. But try to take the advice to heart. We're not all just making this stuff up!
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Trust me,
Go down to bronze. Work your way back up. It really helps.
Im very serious. I think its something to do with the amount of experience in gameplay you gather by getting out of bronze, without the fear of laddering at that level (at bronze, any strat works, really).
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On February 13 2011 13:23 mytent wrote:
Trust me,
Go down to bronze. Work your way back up. It really helps.
Im very serious. I think its something to do with the amount of experience in gameplay you gather by getting out of bronze, without the fear of laddering at that level (at bronze, any strat works, really).
EDIT: Oh plus, as a bonus, you get your favourite portraits =)
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On February 13 2011 13:18 RoyBrown wrote:
I think your underestimating lower leagues. That's all Im saying.
The difference between each league is very subtle, I agree bronze is pretty retarded, and the low ranked silver league players are pretty crap.
I'd love to see you win 13 games in a row beating every race in gold league, just making stalkers till max army, then using 1a through marauders/hydras.
You would have to win a long time before, maybe 4 gate them.
Just sounds like a bullshit theorycrafted strategy.
If you havnt ever been in gold league, I dont see how its even valid posting something like that in this thread.
Well that guy did it. Also I'm a lowly diamond player but I worked my way up from bronze, which I placed into after going 0-5 in my placements. I lost a lot of games at first, and I think I ended up doing my first bit of actual micro IN gold league(FFing a ramp). My macro was somehow still really bad, as it continues to be(but much less so) so I didn't roll people but tbh watching the replays I think a dude doing that strategy would've owned me in gold league even though I went robo tech every single PvP and tended to actually get a lot of immortals. In fact I remember an FFA I did where I just fast expanded and went pure immortal. Ended up losing to a dude(when the other two were eliminated) with better macro going pure stalker. I should find that replay, it'd be illuminating.
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If your in gold league you don't understand how most things work. You have an understanding of the game that makes you competent, but your game scenes and builds won't be refined. You need to just play more and more and more games to improve, the only way to improve is practice. Pretty general life skill to understand.
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United States5162 Posts
On February 13 2011 13:18 RoyBrown wrote:
I think your underestimating lower leagues. That's all Im saying.
The difference between each league is very subtle, I agree bronze is pretty retarded, and the low ranked silver league players are pretty crap.
I'd love to see you win 13 games in a row beating every race in gold league, just making stalkers till max army, then using 1a through marauders/hydras.
You would have to win a long time before, maybe 4 gate them.
Just sounds like a bullshit theorycrafted strategy.
If you havnt ever been in gold league, I dont see how its even valid posting something like that in this thread.
Check this thread out. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187162
All he did was macro a stalker army all the way to diamond.
edit: NM it's already been posted. It's too bad you don't believe it, it's legit. Seems to me your attitude is the thing mostly holding you back.
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On February 13 2011 13:18 RoyBrown wrote:
I think your underestimating lower leagues. That's all Im saying.
The difference between each league is very subtle, I agree bronze is pretty retarded, and the low ranked silver league players are pretty crap.
I'd love to see you win 13 games in a row beating every race in gold league, just making stalkers till max army, then using 1a through marauders/hydras.
You would have to win a long time before, maybe 4 gate them.
Just sounds like a bullshit theorycrafted strategy.
If you havnt ever been in gold league, I dont see how its even valid posting something like that in this thread.
Really?
I think you underestimate the importance of macro. That's all everyone's saying.
Did you even watch any of the guy's replay pack? I think it's insulting that you would so easily dismiss the point that is trying to be made without first looking at the guy's replays.
I mean seriously, think about it. No one who has solid macro is stuck in gold leagues. Believe me, I came up through silver and the one thing that I needed to improve at every level was my macro.
But even that aside, the first thing you need to be able to do to improve your game is identify your own mistakes. There's only so much people can do for you, especially when you don't post your own replays.
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Dunning-Kruger effect might be holding you back, as much as I hate to say it.
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You should definitely be watching replays, right after the game is best. You can see what was actually happening all game and relate it to what you saw while playing the game. This way you'll develop a better understanding of what your opponent is doing when you see it in game.
Also, there's no better way to see what you're doing wrong than to watch your replays. If you don't know what you're doing wrong you won't improve.
Edit: After reading your responses on the thread I'm almost certain that your biggest problem is that you don't realize how bad you are; this is likely at least partially due to the fact that you don't watch your replays. Your macro is worse than you think it is, it's more important than you think it is, and improving it will have a more significant effect on your play than you realize. I'm not saying you're a bad player, just that you probably aren't as good as you think you are and that that's probably the reason you're not improving.
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Watching your own replays, or skimming through them and looking at things you wanted to know more about in game, is helpful.
Watching replays of top players from specific matchups helps significantly as well IF you know what you are looking for. You can also learn these things from just playing or even watching non-pro replays as long as you understand what worked because it works and what worked even though it shouldn't have.
An FPVOD (like Idra's stream if you play Z) can also help a lot because you get a rough idea for how they are actually playing the game.
What race do you play?
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So, macro only obviously can work for Terran and Protoss, but what about Zerg? I've had good success with macro-roach against Protoss, but i think you just absolutely need micro against Terran. I also fail ZvZ, but that's just me.
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On February 13 2011 13:18 RoyBrown wrote:
I think your underestimating lower leagues. That's all Im saying.
The difference between each league is very subtle, I agree bronze is pretty retarded, and the low ranked silver league players are pretty crap.
I'd love to see you win 13 games in a row beating every race in gold league, just making stalkers till max army, then using 1a through marauders/hydras.
You would have to win a long time before, maybe 4 gate them.
Just sounds like a bullshit theorycrafted strategy.
If you havnt ever been in gold league, I dont see how its even valid posting something like that in this thread.
First of, you need to realize that to get promoted, you do not need to win every single game. You just need to win enough games to get paired against higher players, and then play about 50/50 vs them.
Next, there is a reason you are in Gold. Actually, most good players will, even if they start out in gold, never be rank 1 there, or be rank 1 in platin. Because, if you are good enough, you get paired against diamond players pretty fast, and if you play 20-30 games against diamond players with about 50/50 stats, you get promoted pretty fast. Usually even faster, but this does not really matter.
Also, noone said that you should only build stalkers. Everyone knows that building only stalkers is not a solid strategy. What that post meant is that, even though building only stalkers is a pretty horrible strategy, people in the lower leagues macro so bad that you can simply build so many stalkers that you win, despite building only stalkers, and not microing them at all, by having so much stuff that it kills them. For example, if you have double your enemies food, it does not matter at all which units he has. 2 stalkers will still kill one marauder easily. Sure, your army could be a lot more efficient with a good composition, and by microing them, however, through the power of macroing good, you don´t even need that to get to diamond. Generally, your first concern should not be "Which type of unit do i want to have?", but "How can i get more units total?"
I, for one, think that you greatly overestimate lower leagues. I am in diamond, and i am really, really bad at this game. Since the league system does not put people into leagues by random, but puts them there based on their performance, or, more specifically, on what games they won/lost against what level of players, it is safe to assume that people in lower leagues are, unless they simply did not play maybe 50 games to get promoted to where they belong, are generally even worse then me. Since i know that i am bad, and those people are worse then me, they are probably not very good.
Also, replays are very important. Especially important is to notice when you actually lost the game, because that is not necessarily when he comes to kill you. If you allow your enemy to get 3 bases while you are on one, and do no damage at all, you do not lose in the eventual confrontation because you have the wrong combination of units, you simply lose because you got outmacroed, and did not do any damage during the window you could have used. If at some point 3 hellions get into your base, you do not notice it in time, and lose all your probes, but start rebuilding, you are probably still so far behind that you will lose the game, no matter what you do from then on. However, if you are on 2 bases to your enemies one, and a banshee kills 10 probes, you might still be ahead, despite it seeming like you lost a lot of stuff, and he lost nothing at all.
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I understand what you guys are saying, I just dont like big headed people, no matter what they are doing.
Anyway, I updated this thread with 2 replays in the first post.
I'm just looking for help thats all, and BUILD STALKERS FTW! Isnt what Im after, largely because ti doesnt make sense, its not either what I would ever want to do nor care, if someone can execute it because its not how I ever want to play.
My macro slips after I get my second base saturated, I feel worried Im making too many probes.
Check out the 2 replays, both vs a diamond league player.
Give me your feedback, tell me what I could have done better, also Showtime wants to get back into 1v1 after not investing much time into it, so he wouldnt mind feedback either.
Thanks.
P.S.
Also vs zerg, I find my 3rd base requires a shit ton more investment then it should.
I find every expo for toss requires a pylon, so every expo is basically 500 minerals :S
And then on open maps I feel like I need 3-4 canons to keep it alive, is this just a formality or is it actually possible just to make a nexus and ever feel safe.
And I getting my 3rd far too late, because I think I am.
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No one is being big-headed. The idea of getting to Diamond with only Stalkers was to prove a point about macro, not to say that 'lulz mak stocker winz!' I'm rank 20-ish in Diamond league (though I haven't laddered in quite a while, admittedly), and I can definitely attribute most of my wins and losses to macro.
Some games I've completely trampled the other guy, and when I watch the replay I find that my harvester count is higher, army supply is higher, expansions are thrown down in a more timely fashion, upgrades are researched more consistently, ETC ETC ETC.
Losses, obviously, are quite the opposite. It's easy to see your army get crushed by Colossus, or Banelings, or MMM, and think - "what can I do against this unit?" But most of the time you were just behind on macro. There are obviously situations where pure macro won't help - such as lings/marines against splash. However, you can't post a replay of losing to an MMM push when you got supply blocked 3 times before 8 minutes passed, and ended up being 15 supply behind as a result.
I win most of my TvPs with a 2 base push (not really 'all-ins' per se), because I've gotten better at microing less and macroing more. Stim up, micro a few volleys of stutter step attacks, spend 10 seconds to make more SCVs and continue production, continue microing a bit, rinse and repeat. Even if my initial attack trades with his army, the reinforcements can usually seal the deal, thanks to consistent unit production (macro).
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I get that part, I get what you guys are saying, I however think you missed my point, not that I care, I didnt come here for a lets piss in each other shoes and see who wins over the net fight.
Please watch my replays, give some feedback.
I'd really like to know, why my void ray into colossus game 1 attack worked, and why it could fail hard.
I'd also like to know, at what point does my macro slip badly in the second game.
I feel like it pretty much goes out the window once Im on two base.
Any extra details would be awesome.
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Just finished watching the 2nd replay.
Your build was good, but there were a couple of things you did wrong.
You supply blocked yourself several times, at 100 food you were supply blocked for at least 30 seconds, this is where your macro slipped badly and your money started piling up into a trustfund.
You were very passive throughout the game, he spent a lot of larva on drones. Once you have a sizable army you should be going into "shark mode" (as incontrol calls it), clearing the tower, forcing him to make units with those larva (so he doesn't die). You don't have to directly attack him, just make him feel scared that you're going to. This can help you establish a faster third base as well.
If you just focus on never getting supply blocked, constantly chrono boost, always make probes, and always produce out of your structures... you'll hit diamond in no time at all.
If you haven't already seen it check out Khaladas PvZ session with incontrol, it's fantastic.
Incontrol PvZ session
Good luck!
Edited to add link
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On February 13 2011 16:58 RoyBrown wrote:
I get that part, I get what you guys are saying, I however think you missed my point, not that I care, I didnt come here for a lets piss in each other shoes and see who wins over the net fight.
Please watch my replays, give some feedback.
I'd really like to know, why my void ray into colossus game 1 attack worked, and why it could fail hard.
I'd also like to know, at what point does my macro slip badly in the second game.
I feel like it pretty much goes out the window once Im on two base.
Any extra details would be awesome.
Seriously, the specific details of what went wrong in two specific games will not help you get better. There are three things that you need to do which, if you practice them enough, will get you all the way to masters:
Macro :
I know everyone else has said it, but I just want to reiterate. The two most important rules in Starcraft are (1) make money and (2) spend money. Constant probe production, pylons, and constantly keeping your money low by making units will get you very far. Certainly at least into diamond. Even if you only build gateway units. You seem to like talking down to people who are trying to tell you this, but I will reiterate that this will work.
I believe that as protoss each base can support either 4 gateways or 2 gateways and a higher tech production facility (such as a robotics). Knowing this should help you keep your money low after you expand. If you find your money is high when you have this amount of production facilities on 2 bases, then you need to keep focusing on your macro. Note that this also depends on proper worker saturation. If you find that you CAN'T support all of those production facilities, then you need to re-evaluate your probe production (optimally you want 60 probes on 2 bases).
Learn ONE build per matchup and practice the shit out of it:
And pick something solid, with reasonable expansion timing. 2-3 gate Robo is a very good place to start for PvT for example. Just find a solid build that progamers do, find the build order on Liquipedia or from a replay, practice it until you can do it in your sleep in single player, and then take it to the ladder to sort out the nuances. Seriously, this is a HUGE help.
HAVE A PLAN
Many players misunderstand strategy to be a having certain combination of units. This is flawed because strategy also encompasses what those units do. For example, as a terran player, my plan in TvZ is to 2 Barracks expand, pressuring the zerg with marines in the early game, and then attack the 3rd base of the zerg at about the 12-14 minute mark with a force of marines and tanks, while I expand behind the attack. A proper plan should carry you well into the midgame and will give all of your actions purpose.
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Ok, I already do have a general plan every game vs terran, vs protoss it all revolves around 4 gate into colossus, which nearly everyone does, and against zerg i like to use void ray into colossus.
And expanded idea of this is.
On 1 base, scout inside his main with probe, get a general idea for what he is doing.
Usually I like to boil terran down to two things, and rarely a 3rd.
1) M&M
2) Banshee harrassment or Raven Banshee timing attack
3) Mech build, I see it rarely at my level.
If I feel after my probe scout and a stalker scouting the front, that he is going MMM, I will go to templars early, and mass upgrade my units on my first 2 bases, followed by getting colossus when I take my 3rd. If somehow they arent dead yet, I take a 4th and 5th usually at the same time, and I get a mothership, and carriers a bit after.
If I see banshee harrass, I get a robo, pump out about 2-3 observers, 1 for scouting, 2 more so I can keep one over my main and natural, I then switch into a stargate build with blink stalkers on 2 base, with pheonix to take out any ravens or banshees, or at least for the banshees to cloak outside my base, instead of in it. If this build somehow turns out to be mech, I have void rays and maybe even carriers to deal with thors and tanks, although it isnt easy. I honestly have the most trouble with mech.
I have relatively decent plans vs all 3 races, not that they always work or they are unbeatable but I feel comfortable with what I do, and it feels solid. I dont like doing things based on risk, I like builds that are solid to begin, and allow me to kill shit.
Please eleborate a bit, on how you improved your macro.
Is that it? Probes and Pylons. I do tend to get supply blocked constantly after 100 food, it shits me hard.
Any tips for how to remember pylons into the late game when your at like 130 food and battles and expanding and all sorts of shit is going on?
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EDIT:
Thanks xsksc
Watching the incontrol vids now.
Why the hell does he click so much...when making 1 probe..you need an apm of like....5....and his keys are just mashing away at like 200 wtf :S
Better make that probe champ...or you will fall behind...
Do I have to listen to him? I'm muting the sound, the keys are so irritating.
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On February 13 2011 17:48 RoyBrown wrote:
Ok, I already do have a general plan every game vs terran, vs protoss it all revolves around 4 gate into colossus, which nearly everyone does, and against zerg i like to use void ray into colossus.
And expanded idea of this is.
On 1 base, scout inside his main with probe, get a general idea for what he is doing.
Usually I like to boil terran down to two things, and rarely a 3rd.
1) M&M
2) Banshee harrassment or Raven Banshee timing attack
3) Mech build, I see it rarely at my level.
If I feel after my probe scout and a stalker scouting the front, that he is going MMM, I will go to templars early, and mass upgrade my units on my first 2 bases, followed by getting colossus when I take my 3rd. If somehow they arent dead yet, I take a 4th and 5th usually at the same time, and I get a mothership, and carriers a bit after.
If I see banshee harrass, I get a robo, pump out about 2-3 observers, 1 for scouting, 2 more so I can keep one over my main and natural, I then switch into a stargate build with blink stalkers on 2 base, with pheonix to take out any ravens or banshees, or at least for the banshees to cloak outside my base, instead of in it. If this build somehow turns out to be mech, I have void rays and maybe even carriers to deal with thors and tanks, although it isnt easy. I honestly have the most trouble with mech.
I have relatively decent plans vs all 3 races, not that they always work or they are unbeatable but I feel comfortable with what I do, and it feels solid. I dont like doing things based on risk, I like builds that are solid to begin, and allow me to kill shit.
Please eleborate a bit, on how you improved your macro.
Is that it? Probes and Pylons. I do tend to get supply blocked constantly after 100 food, it shits me hard.
Any tips for how to remember pylons into the late game when your at like 130 food and battles and expanding and all sorts of shit is going on?
Are you exactly following build orders that have been executed by pros for your plans? If it hasn't been done by a pro, it probably isn't solid, and if it has been done by a pro, then there's a replay for it and you should grab that replay and learn the hell out of that opening. Pros know how to get the most out of an opening, so definitely follow their lead.
If you have already done that, then the best way to improve your macro is to make that your sole focus in your games. It might feel like running 2 stalkers away from marauders is important, but if you could be making 5 more stalkers instead you're wasting your time.
First, practice against a (very easy) computer. This is an invaluable tool for learning builds and also working on basic mechanics like macro. Pick a build, then make sure that you can get all the way to 200/200 with all of the upgrades you need (not just attack and armor, but also colossi range, storm, etc) without getting supply blocked, stopping probe production, or letting your minerals get too high. To start, keep your minerals/gas below 1000. Then if you can do that easily, keep them below 700, then 500, etc. If you can't macro without anyone pressuring you, you definitely won't be able to macro when the shit hits the fan in a ladder game.
Then when you can do that, take it to the ladder. Macroing in a ladder environment will undoubtedly be harder, but if you focus on macro macro macro (probes pylons gateway production) it will get better over time, and so will your ranking and league.
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Yes. Probes and pylons. That will get you to diamond. If you hadn't supply blocked yourself so much in that 2nd game you would have won quite easily.
Constantly ask yourself, am I making probes, am I making pylons, am I producing out of my gateways, am I upgrading? If your minerals are getting high then you are either supply blocking yourself or you need more unit producing structures.
Think less about micro and control and strategy, its not going to help if you have an army worth 40 food less than it could be. (Micro is still important but improving your macro will win you a lot more games)
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Thanks for the tips.
LOL at the incontrol replay, it gets good after he actually coaches the replay.
This game was like watching myself play, pretty much did all the same things I did, only he was lucky his opponent wasnt as good.
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On February 13 2011 14:10 Turgid wrote:
Dunning-Kruger effect might be holding you back, as much as I hate to say it.
That's a piece of shit thing to say, for a lot of reasons.
_________
You'll get better by identifying your weaknesses and improving them, and by exploiting your strengths. Play and practice. Especially macro at gold level.
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Is that it? Probes and Pylons. I do tend to get supply blocked constantly after 100 food, it shits me hard.
Any tips for how to remember pylons into the late game when your at like 130 food and battles and expanding and all sorts of shit is going on?
Look, Im silver and I don't really know if my plan is good or not, but I suggest you give it a try.
I have a 4 week plan of improving my macro, some of it based on the Day9 Daily #252 (WATCH IT!!!!).
-Week 1 is mainly focus on building probes. Your secondary focus should be limiting micro to minimum: focus on macro while battle and micro only to FF and keeping your army together. Your primary focus is to constantely building probes WITHOUT QUEING!! count to yourself the 17 game seconds it takes to build a probe or 11 seconds for chronobusted probe.
-Week 2 is supply week. Your primary focus is to never get supply blocked. You do this by watching the supplies on the top right EVERY TIME YOU START TO TRAIN UNITS!!!
The secondary focus is to use the F keys for base navigation.
-Week 3 is the minimap week. You train yourself to look on the minimap more than you look at the main screen, and if you want to watch a location you click on it, and dont drag your screen to it. VERY IMPORTANT to be able to immidiately respond to the minimap.
-Week 4 is the tapping week. Focus on tapping as much as possible and make sure your always building something in your production structures. (If you dont know what is tapping, watch the Day9 Daily #252: what he does he hotkey his production structures to 4,5,6 and constantely circle between the structures. if he got army on 1 he does like 1a456456456 1a456456456. always aware what his production is doing).
VERY IMPROTANT:
1. Be very critical on your macro. watch your replay and identify where you slip.
2. Dont be afraid of losses. Practice by playing against people. If you afraid of your ladder rankings play alot of customs, so when you get back to laddering the muscle memory will do the macro for you.
3. NEVER FLOAT ON MINERALS!!! get the Day9 habbit of bashing yourself horrobly if your mineral exceed 500.
4. Again, macro while battle is extremely important so keep your micro minimal, even only attack-move your army. This is tough because the brain tells you that the battle is the important part, well its not!
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I think it'd help if you made a mental checklist of things to do every 10ish seconds
1. Do i have a probe being made? If yes, move to step 2
2. Am i less than 4ish supply away from being supply capped (early/mid game)? If yes, then start a pylon and move to step 3
3. Are my warpgates off cooldown? If not, warp units.
4. Do I know what army comp/strategy my opponent is using? If not-try to find a way to scout it.
5. If you are maintaining the 3 things above and have extra resources, then use those to create more unit producing structures/extra bases.
6. Use Chronoboost.
7. <mid game on, Do i have upgrade(s) being trained?)
<Note that you'll have to often stop unit production to tech faster, but as you progress later in the game, you want to be maximizing your warpgate cooldowns>
If you keep a mental checklist in your head like that and scroll through it every 10-20 seconds, it'll generally keep your macro far better than your opponents.
In addition, as everyone is saying, getting good at pylon/probe is generally the most important thing to do. However, to make doing that simpler, I highly recommend learning one strong solid build and practicing it/using it in every game for a while. With that build, other factors are kept fairly standard, so you can use it to practice keeping your probe creation uptime up and practicing getting pylons at the correct times.
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On February 13 2011 18:23 bronzeterran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2011 14:10 Turgid wrote:
Dunning-Kruger effect might be holding you back, as much as I hate to say it. That's a piece of shit thing to say, for a lot of reasons..
It's also true. Everyone in the thread gives him the same advice that bronze-platinum players always need in threads like this, namely, it's macro basics that are holding you back, not incidental situations requiring specific strategy advice, and he denies this completely sound and appropriate advice because he thinks he knows better, even though he obviously doesn't.
All these threads are the same. Some gold player saying they can't get better or they can't beat zerg as protoss or whatever, explaining in excruciating detail some specific situation they found themselves in.
Once you become consistent in your most basic macro responsibilities (worker production, don't get supply blocked, army production, expanding at appropriate times), then the specific challenges you start having become COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from the problems you're having now with shitty macro. Helping people with issues that result from poor fundamentals is counter-productive and won't help them.
When you're in gold it doesn't even really matter if you're winning or losing, as long as you're improving your macro skills. Once you reach a level of competence there, you will easily start climbing to diamond.
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On February 13 2011 11:32 farseerdk wrote:
I got into diamond with 70ish APM. Now in master I'm about 120. 180 is enough to be a pro. SC2 is not that demanding APM-wise, so don't worry about it. I actually play BW at about 180 APM, so it's not that I'm in capable of playing that fast, I'm just not good enough at SC2 to fully utilize that.
120 SC2 APM is very close or more than 180 BW APM :p
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I think all you need at gold level is a good build with a FE except in pvp, after that if you keep your money low and build worker when he gets at 100 supply you'll be at 150 already.
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On February 14 2011 00:12 telfire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2011 11:32 farseerdk wrote:
I got into diamond with 70ish APM. Now in master I'm about 120. 180 is enough to be a pro. SC2 is not that demanding APM-wise, so don't worry about it. I actually play BW at about 180 APM, so it's not that I'm in capable of playing that fast, I'm just not good enough at SC2 to fully utilize that. 120 SC2 APM is very close or more than 180 BW APM :p
lol I gave a decent game to pit(top 200 terran) in tl open yesterday and I have like 50-55 apm...
APM will never hold back anyone as long as you think of doing everything. If you forgot a supply it's about 3 apm and if you thought about building it, i'm pretty sure your hand speed would've been able to handle it.
Sc2 is more about mechanics and understanding of the game than handspeed
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On February 13 2011 13:18 RoyBrown wrote:
I think your underestimating lower leagues. That's all Im saying.
The difference between each league is very subtle, I agree bronze is pretty retarded, and the low ranked silver league players are pretty crap.
I'd love to see you win 13 games in a row beating every race in gold league, just making stalkers till max army, then using 1a through marauders/hydras.
You would have to win a long time before, maybe 4 gate them.
Just sounds like a bullshit theorycrafted strategy.
If you havnt ever been in gold league, I dont see how its even valid posting something like that in this thread.
Is that a joke post? I've won like 40 custom games in a row just doing macro until they move out and then a-move to kill their army, vs bronze-diamond and I'm not even good... Please give me 13 gold players on EU, they can even pick my race.
Vs anything below Diamond I guarantee you that you can just make workers and Stalkers and win 99% of the time assuming you still have something like an observer to detect cloak.
I just played vs my gold league Terran friend and he made a total of 36 workers in a 20min game... it always is like that, you can just win with macro.
It's really arrogant of you to ask for advice, and when we give you true and tested advice, you just say it doesn't work.
Please test on a unit tester what happens when 10 stimmed marauders and 24 Stalkers fight with a-move. Yep, the Stalkers crush.
Oh yeah, and I bet you didn't know that 1 Stalker > 1 Hydra, or did you?
EDIT: So the tldr for beating gold leaguers is to keep making workers and macro well, avoid supplyblocks.
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On February 13 2011 12:56 RoyBrown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2011 12:43 DaemonX wrote:Honestly? Day9 provides the answer to get into the lower edge of diamond: 1) SCVs & Supply Depots / Probes & Pylons Seriously, if you never skipped a worker, never got supply blocked, you almost couldn't be in silver or below unless you never built a barracks. 2) Basic mechanics (ala Day9 #252). Work out basic mechanics and you will always, always have more stuff than a platinum or below player. Proof: The recent sc reddit experiment http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/f7e8j/seriously_guys_if_youre_in_platinum_or_below_your/ proves this is really the only solution. Sure it's a bit contraversial in some respects; but you cannot debate the basic premise: you can do a bad, thoughtless strategy, you can skip micro - it's all secondary till your macro is at parity. I honestly, dont believe that post, for one second. Just make stalkers? ....yeah thats going to work vs terrans who mmm with a huge consistency of marauders. And he says he's just using a 1a attack so I assume he isnt using micro. I have played some Silver league players who could beat Diamond league players, I seriously think posts like this are either 1) a lie or 2) a lie. That tactic might get you out of bronze but the second he hits silver league, LOL, he wont get out of it. Does he realise that in silver league once you hit rank 1 you play some platinum league players? Even in gold I have to beat diamond league players. Im sure as shit not going to use a bronze league build order to beat the plat/daimond league players I will be facing, as I gold league rank 1. I honestly think most people who say things like that got immediately placed in diamond. There is a shit ton more to making diamond then just making stalkers. Nice troll champ, but that wont help me. I agree that pylons and constantly making probes is cruicial, but there is a bit more to this game then that. Day9 is awesome.
I don't understand how you think this is a lie, there's a freaking replay pack. The point is, if you macro very well, you will be maxed out way before your opponent and so your unit composition doesnt matter at all. I'm sorry but you sound like an idiot, it's obviously true.
Yeah, you wouldn't do a bad BO against high level players because your macro probably isn't as good as the person who did it. Honestly you're denying something that is undeniably true.
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Your game vs. the diamond zerg definitely showed you needed to work on your macro. You had so few gateways when you put up the third and about 1k mins and gas. Funny enough (or is it ironically), if you did what the reddit guy did and built only stalkers and 1a'd that game, you would've easily won.
When you pushed at his base the first time, why did you stop? You most certainly would've won that engagement. About 5 hydras and two spine crawlers that were not even close to completing. He droned super hard and teched straight to hydras with about zero lings. I guess that's more decision making than macro but again, stalker mass +1a would've won you that game.
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I would like to start off by saying that this thread has been made many times and will be made again. Everyone that traverses Tl.net knows that pylons/probes in conjunction with >500 minerals and proper gas will get you diamond. I am a platinum level Zerg (I beat a lot of diamond though) and I have lots of problems that I can identify (starting with the minimap).
I would like to know the general premise for Zergs to get diamond because I feel it is different enough from t/p to be seperate.
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On February 14 2011 01:41 ixi.genocide wrote:
I would like to start off by saying that this thread has been made many times and will be made again. Everyone that traverses Tl.net knows that pylons/probes in conjunction with >500 minerals and proper gas will get you diamond. I am a platinum level Zerg (I beat a lot of diamond though) and I have lots of problems that I can identify (starting with the minimap).
I would like to know the general premise for Zergs to get diamond because I feel it is different enough from t/p to be seperate.
Watching day9 daily 194 and understanding it should be good enough for Zergs, assuming you still keep your mineral/gas below 500 each.
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^^
Yea I find that just macro is not good enough early game for zerg. You need to be able to identify the rough unit composition you're going to face which means (to an extent) you need to be able to recognise the builds of terran and protoss.
Nothing worse than droning up as zerg, and then seeing eight blue flame hellions appear on the map with only 1 queen and a handful of speedlings to deal with it  .
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On February 13 2011 11:15 RoyBrown wrote:
Is watching replays REALLY that important? as I pretty much never do it.
...........
are you trolling?
if you have access to some remote self-critique ability, paired with decent game knowledge and patience, 90% of your improvement will be thanks to watching own replays.
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On February 14 2011 03:59 danielsan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2011 11:15 RoyBrown wrote:
Is watching replays REALLY that important? as I pretty much never do it.
........... are you trolling? if you have access to some remote self-critique ability, paired with decent game knowledge and patience, 90% of your improvement will be thanks to watching own replays.
Actually I don't really watch my own replays. =D Maybe that's why I'm so bad.
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So I have a thread with a replay where my macro is probably better than my opponent but I still lose... but guess what? We're master league players.
We're not saying that working on macro will raise your rank the fastest, what we are saying is that if you work on macro you will be able to reach a higher rank (eventually) than if you focus on other things now. Working on things like cheese, micro, unit-comps etc. will get you into platinum in 2 weeks, but then you will sit there for like 3 months while you figure out your macro. If you work on macro now, you'll take a month to get into platinum and maybe another month to get into diamond.
Get it?
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On February 13 2011 13:18 RoyBrown wrote:
I think your underestimating lower leagues. That's all Im saying.
The difference between each league is very subtle, I agree bronze is pretty retarded, and the low ranked silver league players are pretty crap.
I'd love to see you win 13 games in a row beating every race in gold league, just making stalkers till max army, then using 1a through marauders/hydras.
You would have to win a long time before, maybe 4 gate them.
Just sounds like a bullshit theorycrafted strategy.
If you havnt ever been in gold league, I dont see how its even valid posting something like that in this thread.
I got out of gold into platinum on just marines and expansions alone. Mass marines, expanding constantly. Against any race on any position. If they were bad, the 2rax killed them. If they were decent, I'd kill them because my macro was so much better that the sentries eventually ran out of energy and their larva just wasn't plentiful enough. If they were good (I sometimes played against high plat/low diamond players) it just meant they died after I got my 3rd/4rth expansion up and running and I had about 9-10 barracks producing fully upgraded marines. I didn't start building medivacs and doing drops until I got to platinum.
Macro is what is needed.
My macro is still awful and needs improvement. But it's good enough to get out of gold.
And macro isn't simply spamming one unit. It's building workers, supply, production facilities, expanding, harassing and attacking constantly. It's easier to keep up with supply depot construction if you keep trading armies (don't throw your army, trade yours for his). If you have better macro than him, then by the third or 4rth time you've replaced your army, he won't have much left. You win soon after.
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On February 13 2011 13:18 RoyBrown wrote:
I think your underestimating lower leagues. That's all Im saying.
The difference between each league is very subtle, I agree bronze is pretty retarded, and the low ranked silver league players are pretty crap.
I'd love to see you win 13 games in a row beating every race in gold league, just making stalkers till max army, then using 1a through marauders/hydras.
You would have to win a long time before, maybe 4 gate them.
Just sounds like a bullshit theorycrafted strategy.
If you havnt ever been in gold league, I dont see how its even valid posting something like that in this thread.
lol do you seriously think any competent master league players can't destroy 13 gold players in a row just by making stalkers? Maybe you think "unit counters" are important, but I guarantee you a 200/200 army of stalkers will beat a marauder army at 100 supply or w/e a gold player would have in the time time it takes me to max out on stalkers. What I'm seeing here is an arrogant gold league player receiving advice from players who are way above gold, and telling them they are wrong... if they were wrong then how the hell did they get out of gold in the first place?
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Unit comp helps when macro between players is similar. Micro helps when the macro between two players is the same.
Watch the OGStop vs ScFou game on shakuras. ScFOu kept killing workings and killing armies winning engagements but since his macro was so much worse than OGStop's it didn't matter that ScFOu kept winning the battles, OGStop kept having a bigger army and kept having more scvs than his opponent and eventually won through sheer brute force.
Macro wins games.
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On February 14 2011 01:41 ixi.genocide wrote:
I would like to start off by saying that this thread has been made many times and will be made again. Everyone that traverses Tl.net knows that pylons/probes in conjunction with >500 minerals and proper gas will get you diamond. I am a platinum level Zerg (I beat a lot of diamond though) and I have lots of problems that I can identify (starting with the minimap).
I would like to know the general premise for Zergs to get diamond because I feel it is different enough from t/p to be seperate. This is more geared toward improving as a player, but there are certainly things in here that apply to all levels of skill. If you think anything sounds way beyond you, then it probably is, and you don't even have to be good at all of this to make masters.
Zerg is tricky to give advice for because with how the current mineral collection system works you are forced in to basically playing an economic all-in while making some baseline units depending on what you scout. Then you have to decide if that push is really coming now and you need units, if you can just power drones, or if you need some drones and some units in case that push cames after the next inject batch. I watch a lot of low level zergs because I have a lot of friends who play zerg. Their biggest mistakes tend to be related to the following:
(1) You have to know when to pull drones, when to run drones, and when not to while defending. Rule of thumb: if the attack is early and you don't know if you can win it cleanly just defend with your piddly army and drones. If you have a big army then move the drones away and let your army get there.
(2) You have to understand the position you want to engage in while defending, and you have to be able to effectively split up your otherwise useless melee blob of drones/lings. If you're hitting SCVs with speedlings or running them single file vs a 4rax marine all-in you are doing it wrong.
(3) Don't miss injects or let larva get too high if you have resources !! If you suddenly have a burst of larva when you hit your hatchery hotkey you should know it's inject time, but you should probably have enough free actions to just check the inject time yourself when you think it's time. You can inject -> micro -> inject -> micro or move away->inject x3, but you need to be on top of the injects.
(4) Don't lose anything that isn't a patch of zerglings needlessly. Losing a zergling or twelve to some sieged tanks while you are poking around is a-okay as long as the rest of your zerglings and army move backward before that second volley of murder.
(5) Another big thing is SCOUT. You can leave gaps in your scouting of the enemy's base if you have enough game sense to know what he COULD be doing and that you can prepare for it without setting yourself back much. But if you are doing nothing, just send one ling here and another there. It's ALWAYS worth checking expansions if you aren't about to get pushed. Those lings/overlords might even alert you to a drop or some other wacky maneuver.
Keep something outside of his base, keep something halfway between your base and his. You want to know if he is moving out. You NEED to know on some maps, because you can't even reactive spinecrawler on most of the current map pool.
(6) Your goal as zerg is never to death march on a base with a murder ball and win the game. It's always to make decisions that give you an advantage, don't lose the game, and set you up to eventually win. It's generally better to gain a bigger advantage through pressure/economy than it is to over commit. Zerg defense is to attack his army in a good position for you at a bad time for him. Zerg offense is to pressure something and force them in to that position.
If you lose too much in a captain caveman crush them all, bodies flung to the meatgrinder attack, you can't defend in a good position and will eventually lose because they established a good position near your base. The mindset certainly applies to other races, but the reality of attacking/defending only matters at certain timings for other races. For zerg it's all game.
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The example that comes to mind when I think of improving macro is when I started playing random. While I can play all three races at diamond level, the biggest difference that I have realized is that my macro slowly slips with my other two races. Whether it be late injects, lack of production facilities or just the plain old supply block, I can feel that I'm not nearly as far along as I would have been with my main race. So that's why I always advocate purely focusing on macro to my friends or lower level players who ask for advice. In the long run, learning some cutesy shit like two port banshee or thor allin isn't going to help you more than learning how to be 20-30 food ahead. I stick by the motto of "just have more shit than him and you'll win" attitude, because it's completely true.
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On February 14 2011 04:26 lorkac wrote:
Unit comp helps when macro between players is similar. Micro helps when the macro between two players is the same.
Macro wins games.
This is basically what it boils down to. It's similar to character tiers in fighting games - unless the two players are at very similar skill levels, the tiers don't mean much of anything. I can beat all of my friends with Pichu in Smash Bros, but that doesn't mean he's not vastly under-tiered, it just means I'm a better player. But if I play against someone as good as me and they use Marth, and I use Pichu, I'm gonna have a hard time. Not unwinnable, but definitely more difficult.
Character tiers = unit comp/micro/etc
Overall 'skill' = macro
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I am high gold as well (2800), so I read through this thread cause I had a loss treak yesterday against plat players and knew that I need to improve.
I did the thing everybody suggested, macro the hell out of it, out of my 7 matches today I won every game which I had the change to macro in (lost to one 6 pool and one double proxy gate).
After playing those games now I know why I lost yesterday, my macro was off and I didn't focus on one Build order per matchup.
So tomorrow and on I'm not going to do random attack timings and crazy/cheesy strats and I know macro is not anything, but my micro is actually quite good for my level, I normally win in a similar unit battle and I do a lot of focus-fireing (e.g Immortals -> Tank)
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On February 14 2011 06:15 FinnGamer wrote:
I am high gold as well (2800), so I read through this thread cause I had a loss treak yesterday against plat players and knew that I need to improve.
I did the thing everybody suggested, macro the hell out of it, out of my 7 matches today I won every game which I had the change to macro in (lost to one 6 pool and one double proxy gate).
After playing those games now I know why I lost yesterday, my macro was off and I didn't focus on one Build order per matchup.
So tomorrow and on I'm not going to do random attack timings and crazy/cheesy strats and I know macro is not anything, but my micro is actually quite good for my level, I normally win in a similar unit battle and I do a lot of focus-fireing (e.g Immortals -> Tank)
that's a poor example
a loss streak will force the match making system to pair you with very low level players, when compared both to yours and to the one of those that provoked the loss streak.
you didnt macro your way to victory, the match making won games for you.
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Hi I'm a casual SC2 player and I'm pretty much just like you. I was from the bottom of the bronze league and now i'm just a platinum player, but surely day[9] made all the difference. I've watched your replay and I must say that showtime guy, isn't really in the top levels of diamond Zerg player. However that's OT, here's my thoughts on how you can improve along with the answers to your question.
If any of you guys made your way up the leagues, what did you do to improve?
- Macro ( Low on money, Constantly using your structures)
- Scouting
- Micro (Positioning)
- Not getting supply blocked
- Probes
- Look at the mini map
- "The Tap"
Is watching replays REALLY that important? as I pretty much never do it.
- You want to watch your replays and ask yourself, What could I improve on the next game? What was the turning point of the game? Was my money low? Etc
Is having a practice partner a good idea?
- I think the league matches are pretty much a way to practice against good players. Remember lowing is part of learning. 
Is having an APM average of 85 good enough? it only peaks at about 200 when shit hits the fan, or when I have a few bases.
I have 50 APM and it's all I need to make sure my money is spent and I'm not getting supply blocked
Watch more Day9 Dailys and practice what he teaches
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My question is, how do I improve from here, what will get me into Diamond league?
Making more units will get you to diamond guaranteed. Take the replay where you got outmacroed and stare at your gateways for the whole game. See how there is a buttload of inactivity on them? Ya that's what needs to be fixed. Do the same with your nexus. I realize this advice is very broad but the problems at your current level are just that.
Is watching replays REALLY that important? as I pretty much never do it.
Truthfully it isn't that important right now. Follow what I said above and then take a break from reps. If you can't identify your problems immediately after a game then a.) you aren't thinking about your game properly or b.) your standards are too low. Anything more then 0 seconds downtown between gateways is unacceptable. Keep that lodged in your brain when following the advice at the top.
Is having a practice partner a good idea?
If you can have someone smash you for hours on end then sure. I think the ladder is fine though.
Is having an APM average of 85 good enough? it only peaks at about 200 when shit hits the fan, or when I have a few bases.
It's fine don't worry about it.
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I started out at the release of sc2 as bronze and made my way to diamond until the last 2 months. The biggest key factor is making probes/scv continuously. Drone is a little bit different but the bottomline is to have more workers for you to have sufficient money to create a bunch of units.
I started out just with the workers and then notice I cant keep up with spending the minerals. When makingworkers was already embedded into my brain, I then proceeded on studying how to improve my spendings.
I am still learning up to this point as I cant consistently do it in every match up specially when faced with a lot of harass. But what Im saying is that those two will shoot you up immensely.
I hope this helps. ^_^;
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On February 14 2011 00:41 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2011 13:18 RoyBrown wrote:
I think your underestimating lower leagues. That's all Im saying.
The difference between each league is very subtle, I agree bronze is pretty retarded, and the low ranked silver league players are pretty crap.
I'd love to see you win 13 games in a row beating every race in gold league, just making stalkers till max army, then using 1a through marauders/hydras.
You would have to win a long time before, maybe 4 gate them.
Just sounds like a bullshit theorycrafted strategy.
If you havnt ever been in gold league, I dont see how its even valid posting something like that in this thread.
Is that a joke post? I've won like 40 custom games in a row just doing macro until they move out and then a-move to kill their army, vs bronze-diamond and I'm not even good... Please give me 13 gold players on EU, they can even pick my race. Vs anything below Diamond I guarantee you that you can just make workers and Stalkers and win 99% of the time assuming you still have something like an observer to detect cloak. I just played vs my gold league Terran friend and he made a total of 36 workers in a 20min game... it always is like that, you can just win with macro. It's really arrogant of you to ask for advice, and when we give you true and tested advice, you just say it doesn't work. Please test on a unit tester what happens when 10 stimmed marauders and 24 Stalkers fight with a-move. Yep, the Stalkers crush. Oh yeah, and I bet you didn't know that 1 Stalker > 1 Hydra, or did you? EDIT: So the tldr for beating gold leaguers is to keep making workers and macro well, avoid supplyblocks.
LOL
Dude... 1 stalker does not beat a hydra and I have used a unit tester, you need both attack +1 and armour + 1 for a stalker to beat a hydra 1 on 1.
For someone trying to be and elitist because your so god damn awesome you sure dont know much about the game.
Not only that but hydras are cheaper....Also, I frequently play against players...even in silver league I did, who had + 50 workers under 20 minutes.
You cant just make workers and stalkers, if he won 13 games doin that then as far as Im concerned he got lucky with shit opponents.
Why would I test 10 stimmer marauders vs 24 stalkers? Why wouldnt I test 24 stimmed marauders vs 24 stalkers...idiot. Peoples macro isnt that bad at this level. Not great, but it isnt so bad that people only saturate their main by the 20 minute mark...your an idiot.
4 gaters have about 20-22 probes by the 5 minute mark or so, let alone 20 minutes into the game.
User was warned for this post
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Macro isn't just having a lot of workers, remember that. It also includes constant production, aggressive, but timely expansions, upgrades, and a whole lot more. Like someone just mentioned, watch a replay where you lose, and watch your Nexus(es), Gates/all other production facs, and supply. If you NEVER stop producing on Nexii (?), production buildings, and NEVER get supply blocked, and NEVER go above X minerals and Y gas (difficult to say, but I try to never go over 300 of either when I'm on 2 bases), then you have a legitimate queue to come ask "what can I do better?"
Honestly, I got placed into Gold league, and although I never posted a help thread, I used to be irritated by all the 'macro better' responses that people were getting. But after a couple of months, as I hit a wall and eventually overcame it, I realized that these comments are entirely true.
Protoss actually works better than T or Z in a 'macro only' mode - T usually wants to apply pressure before Z's production and P's tech kicks in, and Z has to be constantly finding a balance between droning/army production.
Just a word of advice - don't be so aggressive to people who are trying to help you. Be open minded about your own areas that need focus instead of just "Rawr gold players > diamond" etc etc.
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On February 14 2011 12:37 RoyBrown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 00:41 Shikyo wrote:On February 13 2011 13:18 RoyBrown wrote:
I think your underestimating lower leagues. That's all Im saying.
The difference between each league is very subtle, I agree bronze is pretty retarded, and the low ranked silver league players are pretty crap.
I'd love to see you win 13 games in a row beating every race in gold league, just making stalkers till max army, then using 1a through marauders/hydras.
You would have to win a long time before, maybe 4 gate them.
Just sounds like a bullshit theorycrafted strategy.
If you havnt ever been in gold league, I dont see how its even valid posting something like that in this thread.
Is that a joke post? I've won like 40 custom games in a row just doing macro until they move out and then a-move to kill their army, vs bronze-diamond and I'm not even good... Please give me 13 gold players on EU, they can even pick my race. Vs anything below Diamond I guarantee you that you can just make workers and Stalkers and win 99% of the time assuming you still have something like an observer to detect cloak. I just played vs my gold league Terran friend and he made a total of 36 workers in a 20min game... it always is like that, you can just win with macro. It's really arrogant of you to ask for advice, and when we give you true and tested advice, you just say it doesn't work. Please test on a unit tester what happens when 10 stimmed marauders and 24 Stalkers fight with a-move. Yep, the Stalkers crush. Oh yeah, and I bet you didn't know that 1 Stalker > 1 Hydra, or did you? EDIT: So the tldr for beating gold leaguers is to keep making workers and macro well, avoid supplyblocks. LOL Dude... 1 stalker does not beat a hydra and I have used a unit tester, you need both attack +1 and armour + 1 for a stalker to beat a hydra 1 on 1. For someone trying to be and elitist because your so god damn awesome you sure dont know much about the game. Not only that but hydras are cheaper....Also, I frequently play against players...even in silver league I did, who had + 50 workers under 20 minutes. You cant just make workers and stalkers, if he won 13 games doin that then as far as Im concerned he got lucky with shit opponents. Why would I test 10 stimmer marauders vs 24 stalkers? Why wouldnt I test 24 stimmed marauders vs 24 stalkers...idiot. Peoples macro isnt that bad at this level. Not great, but it isnt so bad that people only saturate their main by the 20 minute mark...your an idiot. 4 gaters have about 20-22 probes by the 5 minute mark or so, let alone 20 minutes into the game.
I am in Silver League. Just recently promoted from Bronze.
I have just macro'd all my Silver league games so far and it pretty much is the blind counter to Silver league. My last 10 match-ups have been Gold and Platinum players and I have just basically done a macro build vs them as well and keep winning.
Pretty much 2-rax, expand, to 4-rax with double starport for M,M&M with upgrades, taking a third at 11 minutes and dropping a few more raxes.
When you a-move a 200 food army and can macro up another 200 food army at your base 2-3 min after the last one died, you do simply just win.
Try it.
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Not only that but hydras are cheaper....Also, I frequently play against players...even in silver league I did, who had + 50 workers under 20 minutes.
You cant just make workers and stalkers, if he won 13 games doin that then as far as Im concerned he got lucky with shit opponents.
Why would I test 10 stimmer marauders vs 24 stalkers? Why wouldnt I test 24 stimmed marauders vs 24 stalkers...idiot. Peoples macro isnt that bad at this level. Not great, but it isnt so bad that people only saturate their main by the 20 minute mark...your an idiot.
I hate to break it to you, but taking 20 mins to get 50+ workers is actually kind of bad, considering i can get 70 between 13-14 mins, and im not even good. I'm sure its different with terran and zerg, but still.
Also, people at that level do have really bad macro. I was playing custom games to work on on mechanics like tapping and such, and all i had to do was build stuff because i would either get to 200 supply and be 50+ food ahead or wait for them to try and attack with a vastly inferior army. They people i was playing most of the time were mid plat, which is probably like high gold.
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On February 14 2011 12:37 RoyBrown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 00:41 Shikyo wrote:On February 13 2011 13:18 RoyBrown wrote:
I think your underestimating lower leagues. That's all Im saying.
The difference between each league is very subtle, I agree bronze is pretty retarded, and the low ranked silver league players are pretty crap.
I'd love to see you win 13 games in a row beating every race in gold league, just making stalkers till max army, then using 1a through marauders/hydras.
You would have to win a long time before, maybe 4 gate them.
Just sounds like a bullshit theorycrafted strategy.
If you havnt ever been in gold league, I dont see how its even valid posting something like that in this thread.
Is that a joke post? I've won like 40 custom games in a row just doing macro until they move out and then a-move to kill their army, vs bronze-diamond and I'm not even good... Please give me 13 gold players on EU, they can even pick my race. Vs anything below Diamond I guarantee you that you can just make workers and Stalkers and win 99% of the time assuming you still have something like an observer to detect cloak. I just played vs my gold league Terran friend and he made a total of 36 workers in a 20min game... it always is like that, you can just win with macro. It's really arrogant of you to ask for advice, and when we give you true and tested advice, you just say it doesn't work. Please test on a unit tester what happens when 10 stimmed marauders and 24 Stalkers fight with a-move. Yep, the Stalkers crush. Oh yeah, and I bet you didn't know that 1 Stalker > 1 Hydra, or did you? EDIT: So the tldr for beating gold leaguers is to keep making workers and macro well, avoid supplyblocks. LOL Dude... 1 stalker does not beat a hydra and I have used a unit tester, you need both attack +1 and armour + 1 for a stalker to beat a hydra 1 on 1. For someone trying to be and elitist because your so god damn awesome you sure dont know much about the game. Not only that but hydras are cheaper....Also, I frequently play against players...even in silver league I did, who had + 50 workers under 20 minutes. You cant just make workers and stalkers, if he won 13 games doin that then as far as Im concerned he got lucky with shit opponents. Why would I test 10 stimmer marauders vs 24 stalkers? Why wouldnt I test 24 stimmed marauders vs 24 stalkers...idiot. Peoples macro isnt that bad at this level. Not great, but it isnt so bad that people only saturate their main by the 20 minute mark...your an idiot. 4 gaters have about 20-22 probes by the 5 minute mark or so, let alone 20 minutes into the game.
After reading some posts of you, it is quite obvious that the most important thing you need to improve to get better is your attitude. There is no reason to argue aggressively with every single person in this thread trying to help you. Don´t always try to find the flaw in what someone says, and/or try to rationalize that they are wrong, and there is ultimatively nothing wrong with your play. If you are in Gold, there is a reason for it. In almost every case, it is that your macro is bad. Theoretically it could also be that you are good at macro, but suck extremely at decisionmaking and/or unit control. But you would need to be REALLY bad at those if you had good macro to be stuck in gold. Like, only right-clicking and reacting after 10 seconds of your stuff getting shelled, or anti-micro your stuff to not shoot anything useful at all.
Instead, try to listen to people, and maybe think about what they say before completely disregarding that. Maybe, just maybe, improving your macro would be a good idea. Noone is telling you to only build stalkers. You seem to have yourself hung up on that one. That was a demonstration. Someone with good macro wanted to demonstrate that you could actually get into diamond on macro alone. So he decided, KNOWING that it is a disadvantage, to not do any micro at all, and also to not think about unit composition at all. Which are the most important things people mention when saying that macro is not everything. He then played some games on ladder, winning most of them, on PURE MACRO. That guy never meant that this is a good strategy. He wanted to demonstrate that you can have inferior unit composition, don`t micro at all, and still get into diamond just by having good macro.
Just for example, i looked at your "Outmacroed hard" game. Since you seem to believe that people in gold have decent macro, and probably think the same of yourself, i tried to do the same build as you did. Note that i am not good at this game, and still did some mistakes, especially since Protoss is not even my main race.
However, at 14 minutes, which is before you had lost any units at all, you had 117 food, 49 probes, 12 zealots, 2 colossus, 8 stalker and 3 sentrys. Your 1/1 was just finished, you had 1 robo, 5 gates, and an expansion just started.
Now, i personally would probably have gotten that expansion earliers, but i decided to stay on two bases as long as you did.
After 14 minutes, i was at 154 food, had the same amount of infrastructure as you, with an army of 62 probes, 11 zealots, 2 colossus, 14 stalker and 10 sentrys. My 1/1 was 13 seconds from being finished, the rest similar to your stuff. Expansion also just started.
This was my first time trying this build. I am pretty sure that someone who is actually good at this game, or even me with some more experience with this build, could have another 10-30 food worth of army at that point in time. Also, i am pretty sure that i had more stuff than you at any given point in the game, so its not like i cheated and powered hardcore just to have more stuff at a specific point of my choosing. So, doing similar stuff, not even expanding more or something like that, you could have 40-60 food more stuff. This is what macro is about.
In case you do not believe me, here is the replay.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/139294-2v2-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
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On February 14 2011 12:37 RoyBrown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 00:41 Shikyo wrote:On February 13 2011 13:18 RoyBrown wrote:
I think your underestimating lower leagues. That's all Im saying.
The difference between each league is very subtle, I agree bronze is pretty retarded, and the low ranked silver league players are pretty crap.
I'd love to see you win 13 games in a row beating every race in gold league, just making stalkers till max army, then using 1a through marauders/hydras.
You would have to win a long time before, maybe 4 gate them.
Just sounds like a bullshit theorycrafted strategy.
If you havnt ever been in gold league, I dont see how its even valid posting something like that in this thread.
Is that a joke post? I've won like 40 custom games in a row just doing macro until they move out and then a-move to kill their army, vs bronze-diamond and I'm not even good... Please give me 13 gold players on EU, they can even pick my race. Vs anything below Diamond I guarantee you that you can just make workers and Stalkers and win 99% of the time assuming you still have something like an observer to detect cloak. I just played vs my gold league Terran friend and he made a total of 36 workers in a 20min game... it always is like that, you can just win with macro. It's really arrogant of you to ask for advice, and when we give you true and tested advice, you just say it doesn't work. Please test on a unit tester what happens when 10 stimmed marauders and 24 Stalkers fight with a-move. Yep, the Stalkers crush. Oh yeah, and I bet you didn't know that 1 Stalker > 1 Hydra, or did you? EDIT: So the tldr for beating gold leaguers is to keep making workers and macro well, avoid supplyblocks. LOL Dude... 1 stalker does not beat a hydra and I have used a unit tester, you need both attack +1 and armour + 1 for a stalker to beat a hydra 1 on 1. For someone trying to be and elitist because your so god damn awesome you sure dont know much about the game. Not only that but hydras are cheaper....Also, I frequently play against players...even in silver league I did, who had + 50 workers under 20 minutes. You cant just make workers and stalkers, if he won 13 games doin that then as far as Im concerned he got lucky with shit opponents. Why would I test 10 stimmer marauders vs 24 stalkers? Why wouldnt I test 24 stimmed marauders vs 24 stalkers...idiot. Peoples macro isnt that bad at this level. Not great, but it isnt so bad that people only saturate their main by the 20 minute mark...your an idiot. 4 gaters have about 20-22 probes by the 5 minute mark or so, let alone 20 minutes into the game.
I've tried to be civil the last two times I posted in this thread, but at this point you're just not having any of it.
Stop posting you arrogant little prick. Test some advice before you say its worthless.
I bet I can beat you with mass stalkers. I will make nothing but probes, stalkers and observers. You can make whatever unit composition you want. You will lose.
I rolled a guest account to try playing terran. I got into diamond making ONLY marines, tanks and scvs in EVERY MU. I never even made ravens (i relied on scan for detection).
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On February 14 2011 04:51 JustPlay wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 01:41 ixi.genocide wrote:
I would like to start off by saying that this thread has been made many times and will be made again. Everyone that traverses Tl.net knows that pylons/probes in conjunction with >500 minerals and proper gas will get you diamond. I am a platinum level Zerg (I beat a lot of diamond though) and I have lots of problems that I can identify (starting with the minimap).
I would like to know the general premise for Zergs to get diamond because I feel it is different enough from t/p to be seperate. This is more geared toward improving as a player, but there are certainly things in here that apply to all levels of skill. If you think anything sounds way beyond you, then it probably is, and you don't even have to be good at all of this to make masters. Zerg is tricky to give advice for because with how the current mineral collection system works you are forced in to basically playing an economic all-in while making some baseline units depending on what you scout. Then you have to decide if that push is really coming now and you need units, if you can just power drones, or if you need some drones and some units in case that push cames after the next inject batch. I watch a lot of low level zergs because I have a lot of friends who play zerg. Their biggest mistakes tend to be related to the following: (1) You have to know when to pull drones, when to run drones, and when not to while defending. Rule of thumb: if the attack is early and you don't know if you can win it cleanly just defend with your piddly army and drones. If you have a big army then move the drones away and let your army get there. (2) You have to understand the position you want to engage in while defending, and you have to be able to effectively split up your otherwise useless melee blob of drones/lings. If you're hitting SCVs with speedlings or running them single file vs a 4rax marine all-in you are doing it wrong. (3) Don't miss injects or let larva get too high if you have resources !! If you suddenly have a burst of larva when you hit your hatchery hotkey you should know it's inject time, but you should probably have enough free actions to just check the inject time yourself when you think it's time. You can inject -> micro -> inject -> micro or move away->inject x3, but you need to be on top of the injects. (4) Don't lose anything that isn't a patch of zerglings needlessly. Losing a zergling or twelve to some sieged tanks while you are poking around is a-okay as long as the rest of your zerglings and army move backward before that second volley of murder. (5) Another big thing is SCOUT. You can leave gaps in your scouting of the enemy's base if you have enough game sense to know what he COULD be doing and that you can prepare for it without setting yourself back much. But if you are doing nothing, just send one ling here and another there. It's ALWAYS worth checking expansions if you aren't about to get pushed. Those lings/overlords might even alert you to a drop or some other wacky maneuver. Keep something outside of his base, keep something halfway between your base and his. You want to know if he is moving out. You NEED to know on some maps, because you can't even reactive spinecrawler on most of the current map pool. (6) Your goal as zerg is never to death march on a base with a murder ball and win the game. It's always to make decisions that give you an advantage, don't lose the game, and set you up to eventually win. It's generally better to gain a bigger advantage through pressure/economy than it is to over commit. Zerg defense is to attack his army in a good position for you at a bad time for him. Zerg offense is to pressure something and force them in to that position. If you lose too much in a captain caveman crush them all, bodies flung to the meatgrinder attack, you can't defend in a good position and will eventually lose because they established a good position near your base. The mindset certainly applies to other races, but the reality of attacking/defending only matters at certain timings for other races. For zerg it's all game.
This was wonderfully put. I commend you for that. I myself find that I can keep up with injects with absolute ease, until I have to do something else ^^. Also, it seems so easy as a low Zergy to think that you're winning, and it's hard to fight the urge to 'make a few more units and we can win this!'.
This is why I hope someone makes a zerg version of 'just macro to diamond and build 1 unit to win'. It just feels so fragile all the time. 
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You claim to know that you know the game well when you in fact don't. I am not trying to diss you but i just want to tell you that at lower lvl of play, people are generally bad at macroing. You are at the point where you have just learn to 1 base macro but when you hit 2 base your macro slip. This is a common theme in lower lvl play where they are super passive on 1 base. Its just basics and can easily be seen by looking at your own replay. This is why looking at replay MATTERS. Such simple thing can be found just by looking at replay instead of making a post for help.
Also that stalker video was to show that macro is the minimum requirement needed to get into diamond. If you are not in diamond, then that mean you can still work on your macro. Even then, it takes a long long long time to fully master macro.
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I have improved a shit ton because of this thread, thanks guys.
I find that in PvT at my level, hoooooooooly shit did it make a big difference, I am crushing the SHIT out of most of my opponents its crazy. At times I'm managing to make a 3rd expansion before some of them even get a second base LOL.
I'm getting so much money I have no idea what to do with it :S
I just need to work out how to get more gas as I find I can keep gas spent constantly, but minerals get right away from me, at least I can remax pretty damn quick with zealots.
Feels pretty epic chronoboosting 3 forges at once. The way real men upgrade.
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Hi,
good that the good advice given helps you. Some points:
The important thing of macro is that you can do it under pressure and expand at the right times.
It's not like: ok, i can build my army up to 150 supply sitting in my base and mostly not forgetting pylons/probes etc.
It's more like: I can build up my army while I try to attack my opponent and stop him from expanding and hitting him at crucial times and expand while attacking (at the same time making pylons, troops, probes, upgrades etc.). So, it needs multitasking! And this is what all (!) lower league players are not capable of and even most diamond/lower master players have a hard time with. (and of course you need to have an ok unit composition -> scouting becomes more and more important at higher leagues).
So, if you can do this stuff simultaneously you will reach diamond league no problem. Like 3 months ago I played the low bronze account of my friend just for fun. It took me ~25-35 random games to reach platinum league only losing against a nice cannon rush pvp. So it is possible and I am actually a zerg player, so my T and P are much worse. A might be a bit harder now as the game is "older" now, but it is nevertheless possible.
So, work on your macro, probably against computer opponents or by having the following mindset during ladder games:
* don't think too much about micro and scouting, just try to constantly build troops/probes/expansions and dont care about losing. Be satisfied even after a loss as long as you didn't let your macro slip.
Edit: Ok, i forgot that you are a zerg player. In this case, it's not possible to not scout :-).
In this regard (as zerg is an adaptive race), zerg is harder than P or T as you can lose to a lot of bullshit. Nevertheless, the principles keep the same. Look at the energy of your Queens e.g. to see how good you were injecting even under pressure...
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Thanks for all your help guys.
Got promoted on my 500th game.
Platinum league player now
Weird thing is though, my colossus avatar hasnt been unlocked....swear to god I have only played as Protoss in 1v1.
Then again maybe I played one of my first games or some shit as another race....no idea.
Now onto diamond league, and then....masters.
And then....oGsMC and then......sandwiches.
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Diggin the sandwiches.
At this point: you know your macro still isn't amazing as evidence of your league, so go ahead and watch replays where you've lost games recently. Pay attention to primarily 2 things: your nexus and your supply.
How often did you get supply capped? How often were you NOT building workers? How much extra nexus energy did you not use?
After you get those basic ones out of the way, you go to the next set of fundamentals:
Did I scout? How often? What did I do to counter whatever I scouted? Was that the most effective way to do it?How high did I let my minerals get to?
Focus on those basics now. They do really get you into diamond.
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EPT
