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Hello TL peoples,
A quick background, SC2 is the first RTS game I have ever really enjoyed playing online, in other words its pretty much the only RTS I have really given a go to.
I started in bronze league but struggled to improve for a long time until I started watchin shoutcasts of the game, from people like HDgamer and Husky, however one day I heard about some guy called Day9 I think when watching a stream of Huk playing or something.
Day9 has helped improve my game in a huge way, I know feel like I fully understand how most things work.
Anyway, it's taken me a long time to get to gold league, I was never a PC gamer nor RTS player but I'm really enjoying SC2. I read this forum all the time, and boy has it helped me out a lot, especially that recent 3 roach play that required you to pump out quick stalkers or get some canons. This forum has helped me beat that a few times after scouting that quick roach warren.
My question is, how do I improve from here, what will get me into Diamond league?
If any of you guys made your way up the leagues, what did you do to improve?
Is watching replays REALLY that important? as I pretty much never do it.
Is having a practice partner a good idea?
Is having an APM average of 85 good enough? it only peaks at about 200 when shit hits the fan, or when I have a few bases.
---------------------- UPDATE
Ok Guys Updating this post now with two replays.
Im in Gold league, both games Im playing a diamond league player Showtime, hes pretty good but he pretty much has played very few 1v1 games in the last few months to say the least, and I think it showed in the first game.
Quick void ray into colossus build.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/138684-1v1-protoss-zerg-lost-temple
Out macroed hardcore.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/138683-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
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watching replays is really important. if you find there's a time when you're not building scvs or probes all the time, that could cause some serious issues.
Or how often are you missing your injects, are you taking full advantage of your money? Macro.
mostly just work on macro, is what you're going to hear from everyone here.
practice partners are always a good idea, it always helps to have someone to bounce builds off of, try various tactics, and just familiarize yourself with various situations.
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I can almost gaurentee that if you continually focus and improve your macro, the game will be so much easier for you at that level and you will easily get to platnium or higher. Find a good, safe expansion style build and stick to it.
Watching replays really helps if you know what you are looking for, such as timings and slowing down the speed of engagements to analyze your arc and position.
Practice partners help a ton, but only if you and him are commited and not just playing casually. (i.e. less than 2 hours a day)
Finally, don't focus on apm ever....
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One thing I can tell you for sure is APM isn't the problem at all.. I'm in diamond with 50 apm
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5 things that i can 100% guarantee to improve your game
1.) Constant probe production (pure macro gets you REALLY far)
2.) Practice Practice and some more practice just like any other hoby/sport this game takes time to get better at.
3.) Anallise your replays it is helpful to figure out what you are doing wrong
4.) A helpful control group set up that really helps you control your units well
5.) Friends to talk to you about your game play, it is really incredible how much you can learn by having a friend watch
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I got into diamond with 70ish APM. Now in master I'm about 120. 180 is enough to be a pro. SC2 is not that demanding APM-wise, so don't worry about it. I actually play BW at about 180 APM, so it's not that I'm in capable of playing that fast, I'm just not good enough at SC2 to fully utilize that.
I think you're a protoss player, right? Since you mention the stalker response to the 3 roach/ling all-in.
1) Never stop making probes.. EVER. There's an old BW saying that basically says "if you're not good enough to know when to stop making probes, you're not good enough to stop making probes".
2) Never stop making units. With protoss this is a little different because you use warpgates which work in cycles. The key here is never let your warpgates go idle.
3) Learn to use your scouting information, but it seems from your post that you're already doing a decently well, at least in PvZ.
4) Make sure your BO is tight. What does that mean? It means that if you intend to build a pylon, make it when you have 100 minerals, not 150 minerals. This implies moving a probe to the spot ahead of time, but not too early because you don't want to forgo mining time... etc. etc. This is very important before 7 minutes.
5) Later on in the game (past 7 minutes... before then, being "tight" implies very low money), keep your money low! If you're money gets high it means either 1) you're missing warp cycles (your gates are idle) or 2) you don't have enough gates. Fix this!
Replays are very useful when you want to get from plat to diamond. Before then, your time is better spent playing more games.
Practice partners are very helpful because it allows you to try new things without worrying about your record. It also takes away the temptation to cheese, which may inflate your ranking but won't make you get any better.
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Yes practice partners are very helpful, you can practice specifics and have someone to help in analyzing the rep.
I'm valheru.725 silver Terran SEA (I don't ladder that much mostly practice with other TLers) if you want a game.
My good computer broke so I won't be able to play for a while.
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Watch pro replays. Find a standard build for each matchup, find a clean and successful execution of it by a pro player, copy the build exactly(that even comes down to roughly the timing of the expansions and such, not just 9p 13g) , and then do it. Watch every single one of your replays and determine exactly what you did wrong in every single game, from your most devastating loss to your proudest victory. Find more replays of your build in different situations if possible so you can learn the correct responses to various things.
If you're a gold player, do not have more than 3 builds. One per matchup. If you're a Protoss player, just 3gate expand in PvZ, 2gate robo in PvT, and choose between either the 1gate robo that kcdc has been promoting(I understand it has flaws but it'll work on a gold player's fastest 4gate), a 1gas 4gate, or a more economic defensive 4gate in PvP. Those are all good openers and in every case other than 1gas 4gate rush they transition into standard mid and late game. you're trying to find pro replays of them in order to figure out how best to do that.
Also never look at something a pro does and just never do it because you think you can't. Sometimes it's best just to expect perfection out of yourself and really believe that you can do everything MC can do. Carelessly lost a colossus? Big mistake, don't do it again. 400 minerals off 2 bases? Unacceptable. Never, ever accept that you did a good job of anything until you're absolutely certain that there was objectively no way to do it better, for instance if your 9p goes down EXACTLY at 100 minerals at EXACTLY the spot it needed to be and the probe left no earlier than it had to. Knowing you did something perfectly is pretty much impossible in most cases so you should always be on the lookout for small flaws.
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Honestly?
Day9 provides the answer to get into the lower edge of diamond:
1) SCVs & Supply Depots / Probes & Pylons
Seriously, if you never skipped a worker, never got supply blocked, you almost couldn't be in silver or below unless you never built a barracks.
2) Basic mechanics (ala Day9 #252). Work out basic mechanics and you will always, always have more stuff than a platinum or below player.
Proof: The recent sc reddit experiment http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/f7e8j/seriously_guys_if_youre_in_platinum_or_below_your/ proves this is really the only solution.
Sure it's a bit contraversial in some respects; but you cannot debate the basic premise: you can do a bad, thoughtless strategy, you can skip micro - it's all secondary till your macro is at parity.
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On February 13 2011 12:43 DaemonX wrote:Honestly? Day9 provides the answer to get into the lower edge of diamond: 1) SCVs & Supply Depots / Probes & Pylons Seriously, if you never skipped a worker, never got supply blocked, you almost couldn't be in silver or below unless you never built a barracks. 2) Basic mechanics (ala Day9 #252). Work out basic mechanics and you will always, always have more stuff than a platinum or below player. Proof: The recent sc reddit experiment http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/f7e8j/seriously_guys_if_youre_in_platinum_or_below_your/ proves this is really the only solution. Sure it's a bit contraversial in some respects; but you cannot debate the basic premise: you can do a bad, thoughtless strategy, you can skip micro - it's all secondary till your macro is at parity.
I honestly, dont believe that post, for one second.
Just make stalkers?
....yeah thats going to work vs terrans who mmm with a huge consistency of marauders. And he says he's just using a 1a attack so I assume he isnt using micro.
I have played some Silver league players who could beat Diamond league players, I seriously think posts like this are either 1) a lie or 2) a lie.
That tactic might get you out of bronze but the second he hits silver league, LOL, he wont get out of it.
Does he realise that in silver league once you hit rank 1 you play some platinum league players?
Even in gold I have to beat diamond league players.
Im sure as shit not going to use a bronze league build order to beat the plat/daimond league players I will be facing, as I gold league rank 1.
I honestly think most people who say things like that got immediately placed in diamond.
There is a shit ton more to making diamond then just making stalkers.
Nice troll champ, but that wont help me.
I agree that pylons and constantly making probes is cruicial, but there is a bit more to this game then that. Day9 is awesome.
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On February 13 2011 12:56 RoyBrown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2011 12:43 DaemonX wrote:Honestly? Day9 provides the answer to get into the lower edge of diamond: 1) SCVs & Supply Depots / Probes & Pylons Seriously, if you never skipped a worker, never got supply blocked, you almost couldn't be in silver or below unless you never built a barracks. 2) Basic mechanics (ala Day9 #252). Work out basic mechanics and you will always, always have more stuff than a platinum or below player. Proof: The recent sc reddit experiment http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/f7e8j/seriously_guys_if_youre_in_platinum_or_below_your/ proves this is really the only solution. Sure it's a bit contraversial in some respects; but you cannot debate the basic premise: you can do a bad, thoughtless strategy, you can skip micro - it's all secondary till your macro is at parity. I honestly, dont believe that post, for one second. Just make stalkers? ....yeah thats going to work vs terrans who mmm with a huge consistency of marauders. And he says he's just using a 1a attack so I assume he isnt using micro. I have played some Silver league players who could beat Diamond league players, I seriously think posts like this are either 1) a lie or 2) a lie. That tactic might get you out of bronze but the second he hits silver league, LOL, he wont get out of it. Does he realise that in silver league once you hit rank 1 you play some platinum league players? Even in gold I have to beat diamond league players. Im sure as shit not going to use a bronze league build order to beat the plat/daimond league players I will be facing, as I gold league rank 1. I honestly think most people who say things like that got immediately placed in diamond. There is a shit ton more to making diamond then just making stalkers. Nice troll champ, but that wont help me. I agree that pylons and constantly making probes is cruicial, but there is a bit more to this game then that. Day9 is awesome.
That wasn't even a troll man... Or at least it didn't seem like it to me. The point is, the most important thing to work on is macro. The point of that stalker idea isn't to say it's a good idea to build stalkers. It's to try to show that you can win with only macro against players who have worse macro.
Yes there is more to the game than pylons and probes. But at lower levels you can win with basically only perfect pylons and probes (if that makes sense the way I said it). Concentrating on macro and ignoring almost everything else will help you the most. This is coming from someone who has helped train multiple people from bronze to diamond. Concentrating on other aspects will marginally improve your play. But why concentrate on other things when the most important thing at this point is macro. That's my two cents.
By the way if the part of that post you didn't believe was that a masters level player could beat a silver/gold building only stalkers. It's absolutely true. And that is only because of macro gaps. Work on the macro and you'll notice huge improvements in win rate!
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On February 13 2011 12:56 RoyBrown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2011 12:43 DaemonX wrote:Honestly? Day9 provides the answer to get into the lower edge of diamond: 1) SCVs & Supply Depots / Probes & Pylons Seriously, if you never skipped a worker, never got supply blocked, you almost couldn't be in silver or below unless you never built a barracks. 2) Basic mechanics (ala Day9 #252). Work out basic mechanics and you will always, always have more stuff than a platinum or below player. Proof: The recent sc reddit experiment http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/f7e8j/seriously_guys_if_youre_in_platinum_or_below_your/ proves this is really the only solution. Sure it's a bit contraversial in some respects; but you cannot debate the basic premise: you can do a bad, thoughtless strategy, you can skip micro - it's all secondary till your macro is at parity. I honestly, dont believe that post, for one second. Just make stalkers? ....yeah thats going to work vs terrans who mmm with a huge consistency of marauders. And he says he's just using a 1a attack so I assume he isnt using micro. I have played some Silver league players who could beat Diamond league players, I seriously think posts like this are either 1) a lie or 2) a lie. That tactic might get you out of bronze but the second he hits silver league, LOL, he wont get out of it. Does he realise that in silver league once you hit rank 1 you play some platinum league players? Even in gold I have to beat diamond league players. Im sure as shit not going to use a bronze league build order to beat the plat/daimond league players I will be facing, as I gold league rank 1. I honestly think most people who say things like that got immediately placed in diamond. There is a shit ton more to making diamond then just making stalkers. Nice troll champ, but that wont help me. I agree that pylons and constantly making probes is cruicial, but there is a bit more to this game then that. Day9 is awesome.
Actually, spending all your money, making non-stop workers (T & P), not getting supply blocked, and expanding whenever you can will get you to diamond. People always ask for help, and I go watch the rep, and I see the same thing every single time. Massive amounts of unspent resources, continuous supply blocks, idle production facilities (especially workers), and late or no expansions. Strategy won't help in these kinds of situations. I don't say this to brag or because I think I'm awesome or something, as I'm not, but I can do almost any strategy and still win against lower league players (sub diamond) because the strategy I choose doesn't matter when my opponent only has half (or less) the army and economy that he is supposed to. I simply roll over them with more stuff. Once you get the mechanics down, then you can start worrying about the rest, but until then, work on your macro, it really is that simple.
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On February 13 2011 12:56 RoyBrown wrote:
I have played some Silver league players who could beat Diamond league players,
If you can beat diamond players on anything resembling a consistent basis you'll be in diamond. It's that simple. And how can you say his post is a lie? There's proof. He posted proof.
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I think your underestimating lower leagues. That's all Im saying.
The difference between each league is very subtle, I agree bronze is pretty retarded, and the low ranked silver league players are pretty crap.
I'd love to see you win 13 games in a row beating every race in gold league, just making stalkers till max army, then using 1a through marauders/hydras.
You would have to win a long time before, maybe 4 gate them.
Just sounds like a bullshit theorycrafted strategy.
If you havnt ever been in gold league, I dont see how its even valid posting something like that in this thread.
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On February 13 2011 13:18 RoyBrown wrote:
I think your underestimating lower leagues. That's all Im saying.
The difference between each league is very subtle, I agree bronze is pretty retarded, and the low ranked silver league players are pretty crap.
I'd love to see you win 13 games in a row beating every race in gold league, just making stalkers till max army, then using 1a through marauders/hydras.
You would have to win a long time before, maybe 4 gate them.
Just sounds like a bullshit theorycrafted strategy.
If you havnt ever been in gold league, I dont see how its even valid posting something like that in this thread.
I'm done posting here. But try to take the advice to heart. We're not all just making this stuff up!
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Trust me,
Go down to bronze. Work your way back up. It really helps.
Im very serious. I think its something to do with the amount of experience in gameplay you gather by getting out of bronze, without the fear of laddering at that level (at bronze, any strat works, really).
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On February 13 2011 13:23 mytent wrote:
Trust me,
Go down to bronze. Work your way back up. It really helps.
Im very serious. I think its something to do with the amount of experience in gameplay you gather by getting out of bronze, without the fear of laddering at that level (at bronze, any strat works, really).
EDIT: Oh plus, as a bonus, you get your favourite portraits =)
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On February 13 2011 13:18 RoyBrown wrote:
I think your underestimating lower leagues. That's all Im saying.
The difference between each league is very subtle, I agree bronze is pretty retarded, and the low ranked silver league players are pretty crap.
I'd love to see you win 13 games in a row beating every race in gold league, just making stalkers till max army, then using 1a through marauders/hydras.
You would have to win a long time before, maybe 4 gate them.
Just sounds like a bullshit theorycrafted strategy.
If you havnt ever been in gold league, I dont see how its even valid posting something like that in this thread.
Well that guy did it. Also I'm a lowly diamond player but I worked my way up from bronze, which I placed into after going 0-5 in my placements. I lost a lot of games at first, and I think I ended up doing my first bit of actual micro IN gold league(FFing a ramp). My macro was somehow still really bad, as it continues to be(but much less so) so I didn't roll people but tbh watching the replays I think a dude doing that strategy would've owned me in gold league even though I went robo tech every single PvP and tended to actually get a lot of immortals. In fact I remember an FFA I did where I just fast expanded and went pure immortal. Ended up losing to a dude(when the other two were eliminated) with better macro going pure stalker. I should find that replay, it'd be illuminating.
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If your in gold league you don't understand how most things work. You have an understanding of the game that makes you competent, but your game scenes and builds won't be refined. You need to just play more and more and more games to improve, the only way to improve is practice. Pretty general life skill to understand.
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EPT
