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United States5162 Posts
On February 13 2011 13:18 RoyBrown wrote:
I think your underestimating lower leagues. That's all Im saying.
The difference between each league is very subtle, I agree bronze is pretty retarded, and the low ranked silver league players are pretty crap.
I'd love to see you win 13 games in a row beating every race in gold league, just making stalkers till max army, then using 1a through marauders/hydras.
You would have to win a long time before, maybe 4 gate them.
Just sounds like a bullshit theorycrafted strategy.
If you havnt ever been in gold league, I dont see how its even valid posting something like that in this thread.
Check this thread out. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187162
All he did was macro a stalker army all the way to diamond.
edit: NM it's already been posted. It's too bad you don't believe it, it's legit. Seems to me your attitude is the thing mostly holding you back.
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On February 13 2011 13:18 RoyBrown wrote:
I think your underestimating lower leagues. That's all Im saying.
The difference between each league is very subtle, I agree bronze is pretty retarded, and the low ranked silver league players are pretty crap.
I'd love to see you win 13 games in a row beating every race in gold league, just making stalkers till max army, then using 1a through marauders/hydras.
You would have to win a long time before, maybe 4 gate them.
Just sounds like a bullshit theorycrafted strategy.
If you havnt ever been in gold league, I dont see how its even valid posting something like that in this thread.
Really?
I think you underestimate the importance of macro. That's all everyone's saying.
Did you even watch any of the guy's replay pack? I think it's insulting that you would so easily dismiss the point that is trying to be made without first looking at the guy's replays.
I mean seriously, think about it. No one who has solid macro is stuck in gold leagues. Believe me, I came up through silver and the one thing that I needed to improve at every level was my macro.
But even that aside, the first thing you need to be able to do to improve your game is identify your own mistakes. There's only so much people can do for you, especially when you don't post your own replays.
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Dunning-Kruger effect might be holding you back, as much as I hate to say it.
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You should definitely be watching replays, right after the game is best. You can see what was actually happening all game and relate it to what you saw while playing the game. This way you'll develop a better understanding of what your opponent is doing when you see it in game.
Also, there's no better way to see what you're doing wrong than to watch your replays. If you don't know what you're doing wrong you won't improve.
Edit: After reading your responses on the thread I'm almost certain that your biggest problem is that you don't realize how bad you are; this is likely at least partially due to the fact that you don't watch your replays. Your macro is worse than you think it is, it's more important than you think it is, and improving it will have a more significant effect on your play than you realize. I'm not saying you're a bad player, just that you probably aren't as good as you think you are and that that's probably the reason you're not improving.
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Watching your own replays, or skimming through them and looking at things you wanted to know more about in game, is helpful.
Watching replays of top players from specific matchups helps significantly as well IF you know what you are looking for. You can also learn these things from just playing or even watching non-pro replays as long as you understand what worked because it works and what worked even though it shouldn't have.
An FPVOD (like Idra's stream if you play Z) can also help a lot because you get a rough idea for how they are actually playing the game.
What race do you play?
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So, macro only obviously can work for Terran and Protoss, but what about Zerg? I've had good success with macro-roach against Protoss, but i think you just absolutely need micro against Terran. I also fail ZvZ, but that's just me.
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On February 13 2011 13:18 RoyBrown wrote:
I think your underestimating lower leagues. That's all Im saying.
The difference between each league is very subtle, I agree bronze is pretty retarded, and the low ranked silver league players are pretty crap.
I'd love to see you win 13 games in a row beating every race in gold league, just making stalkers till max army, then using 1a through marauders/hydras.
You would have to win a long time before, maybe 4 gate them.
Just sounds like a bullshit theorycrafted strategy.
If you havnt ever been in gold league, I dont see how its even valid posting something like that in this thread.
First of, you need to realize that to get promoted, you do not need to win every single game. You just need to win enough games to get paired against higher players, and then play about 50/50 vs them.
Next, there is a reason you are in Gold. Actually, most good players will, even if they start out in gold, never be rank 1 there, or be rank 1 in platin. Because, if you are good enough, you get paired against diamond players pretty fast, and if you play 20-30 games against diamond players with about 50/50 stats, you get promoted pretty fast. Usually even faster, but this does not really matter.
Also, noone said that you should only build stalkers. Everyone knows that building only stalkers is not a solid strategy. What that post meant is that, even though building only stalkers is a pretty horrible strategy, people in the lower leagues macro so bad that you can simply build so many stalkers that you win, despite building only stalkers, and not microing them at all, by having so much stuff that it kills them. For example, if you have double your enemies food, it does not matter at all which units he has. 2 stalkers will still kill one marauder easily. Sure, your army could be a lot more efficient with a good composition, and by microing them, however, through the power of macroing good, you don´t even need that to get to diamond. Generally, your first concern should not be "Which type of unit do i want to have?", but "How can i get more units total?"
I, for one, think that you greatly overestimate lower leagues. I am in diamond, and i am really, really bad at this game. Since the league system does not put people into leagues by random, but puts them there based on their performance, or, more specifically, on what games they won/lost against what level of players, it is safe to assume that people in lower leagues are, unless they simply did not play maybe 50 games to get promoted to where they belong, are generally even worse then me. Since i know that i am bad, and those people are worse then me, they are probably not very good.
Also, replays are very important. Especially important is to notice when you actually lost the game, because that is not necessarily when he comes to kill you. If you allow your enemy to get 3 bases while you are on one, and do no damage at all, you do not lose in the eventual confrontation because you have the wrong combination of units, you simply lose because you got outmacroed, and did not do any damage during the window you could have used. If at some point 3 hellions get into your base, you do not notice it in time, and lose all your probes, but start rebuilding, you are probably still so far behind that you will lose the game, no matter what you do from then on. However, if you are on 2 bases to your enemies one, and a banshee kills 10 probes, you might still be ahead, despite it seeming like you lost a lot of stuff, and he lost nothing at all.
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I understand what you guys are saying, I just dont like big headed people, no matter what they are doing.
Anyway, I updated this thread with 2 replays in the first post.
I'm just looking for help thats all, and BUILD STALKERS FTW! Isnt what Im after, largely because ti doesnt make sense, its not either what I would ever want to do nor care, if someone can execute it because its not how I ever want to play.
My macro slips after I get my second base saturated, I feel worried Im making too many probes.
Check out the 2 replays, both vs a diamond league player.
Give me your feedback, tell me what I could have done better, also Showtime wants to get back into 1v1 after not investing much time into it, so he wouldnt mind feedback either.
Thanks.
P.S.
Also vs zerg, I find my 3rd base requires a shit ton more investment then it should.
I find every expo for toss requires a pylon, so every expo is basically 500 minerals :S
And then on open maps I feel like I need 3-4 canons to keep it alive, is this just a formality or is it actually possible just to make a nexus and ever feel safe.
And I getting my 3rd far too late, because I think I am.
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No one is being big-headed. The idea of getting to Diamond with only Stalkers was to prove a point about macro, not to say that 'lulz mak stocker winz!' I'm rank 20-ish in Diamond league (though I haven't laddered in quite a while, admittedly), and I can definitely attribute most of my wins and losses to macro.
Some games I've completely trampled the other guy, and when I watch the replay I find that my harvester count is higher, army supply is higher, expansions are thrown down in a more timely fashion, upgrades are researched more consistently, ETC ETC ETC.
Losses, obviously, are quite the opposite. It's easy to see your army get crushed by Colossus, or Banelings, or MMM, and think - "what can I do against this unit?" But most of the time you were just behind on macro. There are obviously situations where pure macro won't help - such as lings/marines against splash. However, you can't post a replay of losing to an MMM push when you got supply blocked 3 times before 8 minutes passed, and ended up being 15 supply behind as a result.
I win most of my TvPs with a 2 base push (not really 'all-ins' per se), because I've gotten better at microing less and macroing more. Stim up, micro a few volleys of stutter step attacks, spend 10 seconds to make more SCVs and continue production, continue microing a bit, rinse and repeat. Even if my initial attack trades with his army, the reinforcements can usually seal the deal, thanks to consistent unit production (macro).
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I get that part, I get what you guys are saying, I however think you missed my point, not that I care, I didnt come here for a lets piss in each other shoes and see who wins over the net fight.
Please watch my replays, give some feedback.
I'd really like to know, why my void ray into colossus game 1 attack worked, and why it could fail hard.
I'd also like to know, at what point does my macro slip badly in the second game.
I feel like it pretty much goes out the window once Im on two base.
Any extra details would be awesome.
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Just finished watching the 2nd replay.
Your build was good, but there were a couple of things you did wrong.
You supply blocked yourself several times, at 100 food you were supply blocked for at least 30 seconds, this is where your macro slipped badly and your money started piling up into a trustfund.
You were very passive throughout the game, he spent a lot of larva on drones. Once you have a sizable army you should be going into "shark mode" (as incontrol calls it), clearing the tower, forcing him to make units with those larva (so he doesn't die). You don't have to directly attack him, just make him feel scared that you're going to. This can help you establish a faster third base as well.
If you just focus on never getting supply blocked, constantly chrono boost, always make probes, and always produce out of your structures... you'll hit diamond in no time at all.
If you haven't already seen it check out Khaladas PvZ session with incontrol, it's fantastic.
Incontrol PvZ session
Good luck!
Edited to add link
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On February 13 2011 16:58 RoyBrown wrote:
I get that part, I get what you guys are saying, I however think you missed my point, not that I care, I didnt come here for a lets piss in each other shoes and see who wins over the net fight.
Please watch my replays, give some feedback.
I'd really like to know, why my void ray into colossus game 1 attack worked, and why it could fail hard.
I'd also like to know, at what point does my macro slip badly in the second game.
I feel like it pretty much goes out the window once Im on two base.
Any extra details would be awesome.
Seriously, the specific details of what went wrong in two specific games will not help you get better. There are three things that you need to do which, if you practice them enough, will get you all the way to masters:
Macro :
I know everyone else has said it, but I just want to reiterate. The two most important rules in Starcraft are (1) make money and (2) spend money. Constant probe production, pylons, and constantly keeping your money low by making units will get you very far. Certainly at least into diamond. Even if you only build gateway units. You seem to like talking down to people who are trying to tell you this, but I will reiterate that this will work.
I believe that as protoss each base can support either 4 gateways or 2 gateways and a higher tech production facility (such as a robotics). Knowing this should help you keep your money low after you expand. If you find your money is high when you have this amount of production facilities on 2 bases, then you need to keep focusing on your macro. Note that this also depends on proper worker saturation. If you find that you CAN'T support all of those production facilities, then you need to re-evaluate your probe production (optimally you want 60 probes on 2 bases).
Learn ONE build per matchup and practice the shit out of it:
And pick something solid, with reasonable expansion timing. 2-3 gate Robo is a very good place to start for PvT for example. Just find a solid build that progamers do, find the build order on Liquipedia or from a replay, practice it until you can do it in your sleep in single player, and then take it to the ladder to sort out the nuances. Seriously, this is a HUGE help.
HAVE A PLAN
Many players misunderstand strategy to be a having certain combination of units. This is flawed because strategy also encompasses what those units do. For example, as a terran player, my plan in TvZ is to 2 Barracks expand, pressuring the zerg with marines in the early game, and then attack the 3rd base of the zerg at about the 12-14 minute mark with a force of marines and tanks, while I expand behind the attack. A proper plan should carry you well into the midgame and will give all of your actions purpose.
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Ok, I already do have a general plan every game vs terran, vs protoss it all revolves around 4 gate into colossus, which nearly everyone does, and against zerg i like to use void ray into colossus.
And expanded idea of this is.
On 1 base, scout inside his main with probe, get a general idea for what he is doing.
Usually I like to boil terran down to two things, and rarely a 3rd.
1) M&M
2) Banshee harrassment or Raven Banshee timing attack
3) Mech build, I see it rarely at my level.
If I feel after my probe scout and a stalker scouting the front, that he is going MMM, I will go to templars early, and mass upgrade my units on my first 2 bases, followed by getting colossus when I take my 3rd. If somehow they arent dead yet, I take a 4th and 5th usually at the same time, and I get a mothership, and carriers a bit after.
If I see banshee harrass, I get a robo, pump out about 2-3 observers, 1 for scouting, 2 more so I can keep one over my main and natural, I then switch into a stargate build with blink stalkers on 2 base, with pheonix to take out any ravens or banshees, or at least for the banshees to cloak outside my base, instead of in it. If this build somehow turns out to be mech, I have void rays and maybe even carriers to deal with thors and tanks, although it isnt easy. I honestly have the most trouble with mech.
I have relatively decent plans vs all 3 races, not that they always work or they are unbeatable but I feel comfortable with what I do, and it feels solid. I dont like doing things based on risk, I like builds that are solid to begin, and allow me to kill shit.
Please eleborate a bit, on how you improved your macro.
Is that it? Probes and Pylons. I do tend to get supply blocked constantly after 100 food, it shits me hard.
Any tips for how to remember pylons into the late game when your at like 130 food and battles and expanding and all sorts of shit is going on?
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EDIT:
Thanks xsksc
Watching the incontrol vids now.
Why the hell does he click so much...when making 1 probe..you need an apm of like....5....and his keys are just mashing away at like 200 wtf :S
Better make that probe champ...or you will fall behind...
Do I have to listen to him? I'm muting the sound, the keys are so irritating.
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On February 13 2011 17:48 RoyBrown wrote:
Ok, I already do have a general plan every game vs terran, vs protoss it all revolves around 4 gate into colossus, which nearly everyone does, and against zerg i like to use void ray into colossus.
And expanded idea of this is.
On 1 base, scout inside his main with probe, get a general idea for what he is doing.
Usually I like to boil terran down to two things, and rarely a 3rd.
1) M&M
2) Banshee harrassment or Raven Banshee timing attack
3) Mech build, I see it rarely at my level.
If I feel after my probe scout and a stalker scouting the front, that he is going MMM, I will go to templars early, and mass upgrade my units on my first 2 bases, followed by getting colossus when I take my 3rd. If somehow they arent dead yet, I take a 4th and 5th usually at the same time, and I get a mothership, and carriers a bit after.
If I see banshee harrass, I get a robo, pump out about 2-3 observers, 1 for scouting, 2 more so I can keep one over my main and natural, I then switch into a stargate build with blink stalkers on 2 base, with pheonix to take out any ravens or banshees, or at least for the banshees to cloak outside my base, instead of in it. If this build somehow turns out to be mech, I have void rays and maybe even carriers to deal with thors and tanks, although it isnt easy. I honestly have the most trouble with mech.
I have relatively decent plans vs all 3 races, not that they always work or they are unbeatable but I feel comfortable with what I do, and it feels solid. I dont like doing things based on risk, I like builds that are solid to begin, and allow me to kill shit.
Please eleborate a bit, on how you improved your macro.
Is that it? Probes and Pylons. I do tend to get supply blocked constantly after 100 food, it shits me hard.
Any tips for how to remember pylons into the late game when your at like 130 food and battles and expanding and all sorts of shit is going on?
Are you exactly following build orders that have been executed by pros for your plans? If it hasn't been done by a pro, it probably isn't solid, and if it has been done by a pro, then there's a replay for it and you should grab that replay and learn the hell out of that opening. Pros know how to get the most out of an opening, so definitely follow their lead.
If you have already done that, then the best way to improve your macro is to make that your sole focus in your games. It might feel like running 2 stalkers away from marauders is important, but if you could be making 5 more stalkers instead you're wasting your time.
First, practice against a (very easy) computer. This is an invaluable tool for learning builds and also working on basic mechanics like macro. Pick a build, then make sure that you can get all the way to 200/200 with all of the upgrades you need (not just attack and armor, but also colossi range, storm, etc) without getting supply blocked, stopping probe production, or letting your minerals get too high. To start, keep your minerals/gas below 1000. Then if you can do that easily, keep them below 700, then 500, etc. If you can't macro without anyone pressuring you, you definitely won't be able to macro when the shit hits the fan in a ladder game.
Then when you can do that, take it to the ladder. Macroing in a ladder environment will undoubtedly be harder, but if you focus on macro macro macro (probes pylons gateway production) it will get better over time, and so will your ranking and league.
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Yes. Probes and pylons. That will get you to diamond. If you hadn't supply blocked yourself so much in that 2nd game you would have won quite easily.
Constantly ask yourself, am I making probes, am I making pylons, am I producing out of my gateways, am I upgrading? If your minerals are getting high then you are either supply blocking yourself or you need more unit producing structures.
Think less about micro and control and strategy, its not going to help if you have an army worth 40 food less than it could be. (Micro is still important but improving your macro will win you a lot more games)
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Thanks for the tips.
LOL at the incontrol replay, it gets good after he actually coaches the replay.
This game was like watching myself play, pretty much did all the same things I did, only he was lucky his opponent wasnt as good.
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On February 13 2011 14:10 Turgid wrote:
Dunning-Kruger effect might be holding you back, as much as I hate to say it.
That's a piece of shit thing to say, for a lot of reasons.
_________
You'll get better by identifying your weaknesses and improving them, and by exploiting your strengths. Play and practice. Especially macro at gold level.
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Is that it? Probes and Pylons. I do tend to get supply blocked constantly after 100 food, it shits me hard.
Any tips for how to remember pylons into the late game when your at like 130 food and battles and expanding and all sorts of shit is going on?
Look, Im silver and I don't really know if my plan is good or not, but I suggest you give it a try.
I have a 4 week plan of improving my macro, some of it based on the Day9 Daily #252 (WATCH IT!!!!).
-Week 1 is mainly focus on building probes. Your secondary focus should be limiting micro to minimum: focus on macro while battle and micro only to FF and keeping your army together. Your primary focus is to constantely building probes WITHOUT QUEING!! count to yourself the 17 game seconds it takes to build a probe or 11 seconds for chronobusted probe.
-Week 2 is supply week. Your primary focus is to never get supply blocked. You do this by watching the supplies on the top right EVERY TIME YOU START TO TRAIN UNITS!!!
The secondary focus is to use the F keys for base navigation.
-Week 3 is the minimap week. You train yourself to look on the minimap more than you look at the main screen, and if you want to watch a location you click on it, and dont drag your screen to it. VERY IMPORTANT to be able to immidiately respond to the minimap.
-Week 4 is the tapping week. Focus on tapping as much as possible and make sure your always building something in your production structures. (If you dont know what is tapping, watch the Day9 Daily #252: what he does he hotkey his production structures to 4,5,6 and constantely circle between the structures. if he got army on 1 he does like 1a456456456 1a456456456. always aware what his production is doing).
VERY IMPROTANT:
1. Be very critical on your macro. watch your replay and identify where you slip.
2. Dont be afraid of losses. Practice by playing against people. If you afraid of your ladder rankings play alot of customs, so when you get back to laddering the muscle memory will do the macro for you.
3. NEVER FLOAT ON MINERALS!!! get the Day9 habbit of bashing yourself horrobly if your mineral exceed 500.
4. Again, macro while battle is extremely important so keep your micro minimal, even only attack-move your army. This is tough because the brain tells you that the battle is the important part, well its not!
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I think it'd help if you made a mental checklist of things to do every 10ish seconds
1. Do i have a probe being made? If yes, move to step 2
2. Am i less than 4ish supply away from being supply capped (early/mid game)? If yes, then start a pylon and move to step 3
3. Are my warpgates off cooldown? If not, warp units.
4. Do I know what army comp/strategy my opponent is using? If not-try to find a way to scout it.
5. If you are maintaining the 3 things above and have extra resources, then use those to create more unit producing structures/extra bases.
6. Use Chronoboost.
7. <mid game on, Do i have upgrade(s) being trained?)
<Note that you'll have to often stop unit production to tech faster, but as you progress later in the game, you want to be maximizing your warpgate cooldowns>
If you keep a mental checklist in your head like that and scroll through it every 10-20 seconds, it'll generally keep your macro far better than your opponents.
In addition, as everyone is saying, getting good at pylon/probe is generally the most important thing to do. However, to make doing that simpler, I highly recommend learning one strong solid build and practicing it/using it in every game for a while. With that build, other factors are kept fairly standard, so you can use it to practice keeping your probe creation uptime up and practicing getting pylons at the correct times.
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On February 13 2011 18:23 bronzeterran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2011 14:10 Turgid wrote:
Dunning-Kruger effect might be holding you back, as much as I hate to say it. That's a piece of shit thing to say, for a lot of reasons..
It's also true. Everyone in the thread gives him the same advice that bronze-platinum players always need in threads like this, namely, it's macro basics that are holding you back, not incidental situations requiring specific strategy advice, and he denies this completely sound and appropriate advice because he thinks he knows better, even though he obviously doesn't.
All these threads are the same. Some gold player saying they can't get better or they can't beat zerg as protoss or whatever, explaining in excruciating detail some specific situation they found themselves in.
Once you become consistent in your most basic macro responsibilities (worker production, don't get supply blocked, army production, expanding at appropriate times), then the specific challenges you start having become COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from the problems you're having now with shitty macro. Helping people with issues that result from poor fundamentals is counter-productive and won't help them.
When you're in gold it doesn't even really matter if you're winning or losing, as long as you're improving your macro skills. Once you reach a level of competence there, you will easily start climbing to diamond.
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EPT
