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On February 14 2011 10:45 roymarthyup wrote:
The reason void rays work so well against thors is because NORMALLY thors will be doing their 90 damage ground attack that rapes your zealots and stalkers, but with void rays you force the thor to deal their weaker slower attack to air units. thors actually have priority in attacking air units so with void rays on the field you force the thor to not attack ground letting your zealots and stalkers do work
Interesting, didn't know this.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/139197-1v1-terran-protoss-lost-temple#rd:dna < Me playing terribly the whole game, failing to scout the thor play and still winning due to vortex. Does seem especially powerful against Thors as they must be clumped to be effective; if you ever botch a game completely but still have an economy gogo mothership.
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Im lost on why magic boxing doesn't work since void rays automatically attack in a 60 degree angle ,while moving. so you aren't losing that much dps assuming you zealot/storm to get rid of marines.
Carriers work on burst dmg vs low armor units and thors have relatively tons of armor, so I'm not seeing that as a counter, unless you mean to distract their AI.
Thus, my advice is storm or collosi to rid of marines and void rays to kill thors. storm also works against vikings, if you can get the templar in range.
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On February 14 2011 07:45 sleepingdog wrote:
Bumping this because this shit really seems to get popular. Once I have a game where I don't screw up on some point a long the way I'll post a H-thread of my own, but for now I'd just appreciate more reps/strategies that go a bit more in detail.
For now I think the consensus is, that against mass-thors you need to start out with a neat robotics-force (I've seen kiwikaki going with 2 robos straight away for immortals/colossi after scouting this) and then transition into either void rays or carriers - where I'd say carriers should work better because they don't get shut down from vikings that efficiently. Also you probably need the templar tech at some point because otherwise +3 marines will be able to inflict to much damage before they die.
Chargelots won't cut it since every thor-play normally adds blueflame hellions at some point which just roast the front-line which is all that takes to negate the charge-threat.
The real question though is: how to structure your game accordingly. Meaning, as we all have played countless games vs MMM we all know that MMM is more mobile and it's fine for us toss-players to stay defensively. Against thor-play it seems like the roles are completely switched and we have to outexpand and harass while getting the transitions on route properly. So, do you try to do some harassment? (DTs, warpprism). Do you take a much quicker third? Do you maybe even try to double expand zerg-style, meaning two expos at different locations? Do you actively try to engage multiple times keeping the thor-count low?
Just expo and contain. Every factory with techlab is basically another free expansion for Toss because thor/tank is pretty sub-par in this matchup. Get many warpgates and SGates with fleet beacon, you should max out way sooner than the Terran. As soon as he moves out of his natural to take, engage, you will probably dent his army a lot even if you lose almost everything you have. Reinforce with Gateway units and immos, depending on his support and thor numbers chrono out carriers or voids.
If the Terran camps till 200 food thor or some other insane crap, get gateway/robo units till about ~150 food and fill the rest with carriers.
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just putting this out there, thors are very powerful but vortex / collossi toilets / void rays are also very powerful
i really believe thors are the most powerful endgame option for terran against toss right next to BC's but thors are easier to get and thors actually deal way more DPS to ground than BC's and are cheaper.
but you gotta realize toss also has just as strong endgame options like mothership / vortex+collossi / void rays
because thors are so large, a collossi toilet will have the same effect as an archon toilet. the thors will all get hit by collossi splash after the vortex
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On February 14 2011 10:36 slothly wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 10:35 badcop wrote:
If its mass thors just go absurd amounts of immortals, you'll win.
If they go emp and thors still go immortals.
This will only work if they go truly mass thors and no other units. Strike cannon + EMP.
You do realize how much flippin gas that takes. Everything has a counter and simply stating that Stike Cannon Ghost beats this then imma tell you Feedback immortal beats you. But still if Terran can make that many Thors, they you can make that many collosi and Rape him by kiting endlessly. If they add banshees or vikings add Phoenix.
Collos is = to Thor in Price, but is faster has splash and higher range. Collosi rape all ground units. Phoenix is > Vikings and Banshees. They also mess with the THor AI who will atk them before The Collosi.
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thors dont need emp to beat immortals
strike cannon thors have 7 range. thors have 5 range
when thors engage immortals the first two rows of thors will strike cannon the front row of immortals. all the immortals will die
if the immortals try to walk up and get closer and have 2 rows to shoot the thors, the first 3 rows of thors will strike cannon the 2 rows of immortals
a strike cannon takes out a immortal. and thors have 7 range and two attacks they will beat immortals easily
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[B]On February 14 2011 11:19 GinDo wrote:
You do realize how much flippin gas that takes. Everything has a counter and simply stating that Stike Cannon Ghost beats this then imma tell you Feedback immortal beats you. But still if Terran can make that many Thors, they you can make that many collosi and Rape him by kiting endlessly. If they add banshees or vikings add Phoenix.
Collos is = to Thor in Price, but is faster has splash and higher range. Collosi rape all ground units. Phoenix is > Vikings and Banshees. They also mess with the THor AI who will atk them before The Collosi.
The EMP is really only to bust any immortals that haven't already been gibbed by strike cannon, feedback immortal is raped by thors; and its a perfectly attainable late game composition irrespective of the gas cost.
The fact is that pure collosi is impossible to attain and impossible to replenish when you inevitably loose it as you will not have enough robo bays to respond in good time. The Terran will already have plenty of factories from earlier hellion/tank usage, hence why mass thor is a transitional build.
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On February 14 2011 11:22 roymarthyup wrote:
thors dont need emp to beat immortals
strike cannon thors have 7 range. thors have 5 range
when thors engage immortals the first two rows of thors will strike cannon the front row of immortals. all the immortals will die
if the immortals try to walk up and get closer and have 2 rows to shoot the thors, the first 3 rows of thors will strike cannon the 2 rows of immortals
a strike cannon takes out a immortal. and thors have 7 range and two attacks they will beat immortals easily
See, this is the problem when statistics are being put out with no real experience behind them. All your numbers are correct but they actually only apply to when armies are very small. As soon as the number of immortals and thors exceed 3 strike cannon is actually useless, it is worse than a moving. The reason is that while you may very well on paper strike cannon all the immortals before they are in range, all the thors will die to gateway units while they are standing still doing their little animation.
Strike cannon is only viable for timing pushes at below 100 supply.
Anyway, here is a hint for protosses to deal with ghostmech, 1) Don't attack, 2) Skip colossus alltogether. 3) Go templar into carrier and play a macro game. 4) Collect win because terran lategame can't bust a passsive protoss when tech tree is fully developed.
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Okay, I knew he was getting Thors, I was a base up on him, and I still lost...
I had almost only Zealots (w/ legs), Immortals at 3/0 and VRays at 2/1.
His thors were 3/3/0, his Bio was 1/0.
I wasn't slipping on macro. I was a base up on him and already had my 3rd saturated. I got my second earlier.
He pushes and before most of my zealots can reach them they die. EMP takes out all my shields.
I know I could play better (I was a couple of seconds late to actually looking at the battle, but I positioned my Immortals before my Zealots etc.)
Should I be changing my upgrades? It's really frustrating to lose to this.
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From a Terran perspective, 5+ colossi w range with stalkers and zealots beat Thor marine marauder handily with equal supply, same no of Thors. Thors just can't get close enuff to strike cannon the colossus and their infantry support can't move forward or they will get melted.
I had a few games where i get soundly trashed by protoss with the above. Please post replays where such a Toss composition loses to a Thor build please.
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EPT
