|
Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/137262-1v1-terran-protoss-shakuras-plateau
Foreword: I was just promoted to Platinum from Gold and feel pretty awful at this game.
I'm kind of mindboggled after this game and could really use some input about how I could have approached it better. It's one of the first big macro games I've gotten into with Terran at this level, and my army just seemed to have no effect on his mass of Thors.
I responded to his building thors initially by going double robo and making a good number of immortals but that didn't quite seem to do the trick. I know my first engagement was just kind of dumb because I went up his ramp funneling my units into a path where they couldn't all attack(and Thors out-range Immortals by a good bit). So I know that was my first big mistake that set me back. I had just been hoping to whittle down his Thor numbers before they got too enormous.
I was tempted to go DTs initially but he got a rather quick Raven for detection. Later on I eventually got 4 bases up and did a little harass with zealots at his 3rd(killed around 30 SCVs, but his army was already huge), and our 200 armies met and mine flat evaporated. My composition was immortals, zealots, couple sentries, stalkers and a few colossi, while he had thors, bioball, couple ghosts, vikings, raven.
Things I think I could have done better:
-perhaps tried to snipe his Raven and go for Dark Templars
-Do more harass in his main to screw with his production perhaps and keep his army back?
-I upgraded shields instead of armor, which I believe was dumb because he had EMP.
Watch the final 200 vs 200 army battle around 24 minutes and notice my food drops 100 and I don't think I killed even a single one of his 10 Thors.
I found a thread related to Mass Thor, though in my replay the enemy had an additional group of vikings that made short work of my Colossi:
Related Thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=184813
So do you think I should have just started going air as soon as I saw he had thors? It seems like a good bit of other Toss players have trouble with this, so I could really use some input. Gracias!
|
I find void rays to be the best answer to thors-- Depends on how much marine support there is, though. When the thor count gets extreme, there's no good answer.
|
Storm Bio. Separate your immortals from your HTs (as ghosts will have to pick who to EMP). Get void rays OR carriers. If it's 24 minutes in the game there really is no excuse not to tech to Carriers vs. Terran, they simply OWN. You could use mothership and Vortex half his army. And if he decides to put everything in the vortex, just get storms ready when vortex is over. Get immortals, you should have ZERO stalkers and maybe 1 or 2 sentries for GS, that's about it.
A very important concept that plat and diamond players need to grasp is that you can't just build one unit to counter his army, but rather build the right amount of certain units to counter different aspects of his army.
If you storm the bio then your Void/Immortal composition will simply clean up the thors and whatever remnants of his bio he has left.
|
Hey that's my build! :D gg bro maybe we should practice sometime?
|
Haha! Yes man, I would absolutely be down to practice sometime lol. That's hilarious you saw this!
(for those who haven't viewed the replay, WastedScotch was the other player)
The build was super strong. Have you seen many viable builds from Toss that work against it?
|
I don't like theorycraft that much but I have never encountered someone who went mass thors on ladder. I did however have somebody do a 1 base push with 4 thors and a ton of marines and scvs but unfortunately I lost the replay. Some people will tell you void rays are a good counter to thors, BUT that only counters a small number of thors as the splash damage from a metric-ass-shit-fuckton of thors actually vaporizes a mass of void rays (you can try it in a unit tester if you don't believe me). Other people will tell you that immortals are a good unit to deal with thors, but as you said the strike cannons focus the immortals down before they can do enough damage.
My solution is a healthy mix of immortals, void rays, and gateway units. The exact mix? Hard to say, but I would go for an almost equal number of VRs and Immortals, but maybe a couple more immortals. That mix worked for me against the 4 thor push I faced yesterday but like I said, I lost the replay or I would show you. 
|
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a.
|
Its not really a mass thor build... my 200/200 army consisted of somewhere around 40 marauders, 10 thors, 10 vikings, 1 raven, and 2 ghosts and a few medivacs . With 3 vehicle armor and 3 Bio attack. I feel i just out macro ed and out upgraded you. My opening was the thor emp expand.
Thor's are the back bone but i could have really transitioned into anything and was prepared for anything.
|
On February 11 2011 07:46 Incarnite wrote:
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a.
If you've got the micro to magic box a shit ton of void rays, then by all means go right ahead and go mass VR against mass thors. The splash damage from a shit ton of thors is absolutely ridiculous.
|
On February 11 2011 07:58 Jacuzzi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 07:46 Incarnite wrote:
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a. If you've got the micro to magic box a shit ton of void rays, then by all means go right ahead and go mass VR against mass thors. The splash damage from a shit ton of thors is absolutely ridiculous.
Magic boxing really doesn't require that much micro, and don't void rays shoot while moving on top of that?
|
The only time ive ever really lost with this is when im expanding. There is a window of opportunity for a quick immortal push as im expanding cause i dont have emp yet.
|
In general, an opponent that is making a mass thor army will be so immobile that you should be able to take extra bases and run him over with big macro play.
In terms of army composition, the new hotness that is a void ray / colossus ball will roflstomp any bio + thor sort of plays.
Mass immortal is risky against a large number of thors because the cannon ability for thors is very good at killing immortals.
|
Wow, my next PvT after this was another guy who built up not only 12 Thors, but several Tanks as well. I tried going for both several void rays and DTs, but he had a bajillion scans ready and during my main engagement I don't think I even had close to enough voids and I forgot to magic box them.
|
On February 11 2011 08:03 darklordjac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 07:58 Jacuzzi wrote:On February 11 2011 07:46 Incarnite wrote:
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a. If you've got the micro to magic box a shit ton of void rays, then by all means go right ahead and go mass VR against mass thors. The splash damage from a shit ton of thors is absolutely ridiculous. Magic boxing really doesn't require that much micro, and don't void rays shoot while moving on top of that?
Magic boxing requires micro. Like? Move and Hold? WOWWWWWWWWW. And people say kiting is easy...
|
I'm at school so i can't watch replay. DTs and immos are good against thor, but when they have strike cannon/raven it gets hard. so make warp prisms! it forces his thors to move around the map, and I believe a speed upgraded warp prism is faster than all terran units not called the hellion
|
On February 11 2011 07:58 Jacuzzi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 07:46 Incarnite wrote:
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a. If you've got the micro to magic box a shit ton of void rays, then by all means go right ahead and go mass VR against mass thors. The splash damage from a shit ton of thors is absolutely ridiculous.
The entire point of magic boxing is that you can keep units in formation with little effort.
On February 11 2011 08:03 darklordjac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 07:58 Jacuzzi wrote:On February 11 2011 07:46 Incarnite wrote:
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a. If you've got the micro to magic box a shit ton of void rays, then by all means go right ahead and go mass VR against mass thors. The splash damage from a shit ton of thors is absolutely ridiculous. Magic boxing really doesn't require that much micro, and don't void rays shoot while moving on top of that?
Yes, it does, which makes magic boxing as void rays even more effective.
Here are some VR vs Thor numbers BTW:
0-0-0 VR vs Thor 0-0
5 vs 5 - 3 VR survive
10 vs 10 - 7 VR survive
15 vs 15 - 7 VR survive
0-0-0 VR vs Thor 3-3
5 vs 5 - 2.5 Thor survive
10 vs 10 - 6 Thor survive
15 vs 15 = 10 Thor survive
0-3-3 VR vs Thor 3-3
5 vs 5 - 2.5 VR survive
10 vs 10 - 4.5 VR survive
15 vs 15 - 6 VR survive.
|
On February 11 2011 08:03 darklordjac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 07:58 Jacuzzi wrote:On February 11 2011 07:46 Incarnite wrote:
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a. If you've got the micro to magic box a shit ton of void rays, then by all means go right ahead and go mass VR against mass thors. The splash damage from a shit ton of thors is absolutely ridiculous. Magic boxing really doesn't require that much micro, and don't void rays shoot while moving on top of that?
Voidrays are slow and large units, I dare you to try magic box them over thors, you will lose most of them before you get them overhead .
I find voidrays good vs Thors in small numbers, but when it becomes to mass Thors with repair, they just die too fast, and voids tend to clump up easier than mutas due to size, especially when Thors start dieing.
I think a good idea is to do a surprise Carrier Voidray Zealot Archon bust, if it fails then Terran will reactor vikings and you will no longer be able to go Carrier/Voidray , make sure you have 3-3 Zealots and air weapons that is the same as whatever armor upgrade it is for the thor, 0/0 Carriers do 48 less damage to 0/3 Thors :/
Wow, my next PvT after this was another guy who built up not only 12 Thors, but several Tanks as well. I tried going for both several void rays and DTs, but he had a bajillion scans ready and during my main engagement I don't think I even had close to enough voids and I forgot to magic box them.
Carrier Zealot Templar can bust through Tank/Thor, pure Thor is a bit tougher. You need to take a fast third when you see Terran meching, it can be pretty brutal if it is close postions, imo, try build tech in another base if it is close positions because that slow push is going to get there before you can blink on maps like Meta/LT
|
On February 11 2011 23:58 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 08:03 darklordjac wrote:On February 11 2011 07:58 Jacuzzi wrote:On February 11 2011 07:46 Incarnite wrote:
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a. If you've got the micro to magic box a shit ton of void rays, then by all means go right ahead and go mass VR against mass thors. The splash damage from a shit ton of thors is absolutely ridiculous. Magic boxing really doesn't require that much micro, and don't void rays shoot while moving on top of that? Voidrays are slow and large units, I dare you to try magic box them over thors, you will lose most of them before you get them overhead . I find voidrays good vs Thors in small numbers, but when it becomes to mass Thors with repair, they just die too fast, and voids tend to clump up easier than mutas due to size, especially when Thors start dieing. I think a good idea is to do a surprise Carrier Voidray Zealot Archon bust, if it fails then Terran will reactor vikings and you will no longer be able to go Carrier/Voidray , make sure you have 3-3 Zealots and air weapons that is the same as whatever armor upgrade it is for the thor, 0/0 Carriers do 48 less damage to 0/3 Thors :/
Do people like you even try what you're saying before you post? It's incredible easy to magic box void rays, and I actually did the tests and came up the numbers right above your post. Even if you have 0-0-0 VR's against his 3-3 Thors, they will still lose five thors before all your void rays die. That is also with equal numbers, and thors cost more, and cost much more supply - void rays are clearly the counter to thors in small or large numbers. Carriers aren't always a viable option.
|
On February 12 2011 00:01 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 23:58 Dommk wrote:On February 11 2011 08:03 darklordjac wrote:On February 11 2011 07:58 Jacuzzi wrote:On February 11 2011 07:46 Incarnite wrote:
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a. If you've got the micro to magic box a shit ton of void rays, then by all means go right ahead and go mass VR against mass thors. The splash damage from a shit ton of thors is absolutely ridiculous. Magic boxing really doesn't require that much micro, and don't void rays shoot while moving on top of that? Voidrays are slow and large units, I dare you to try magic box them over thors, you will lose most of them before you get them overhead . I find voidrays good vs Thors in small numbers, but when it becomes to mass Thors with repair, they just die too fast, and voids tend to clump up easier than mutas due to size, especially when Thors start dieing. I think a good idea is to do a surprise Carrier Voidray Zealot Archon bust, if it fails then Terran will reactor vikings and you will no longer be able to go Carrier/Voidray , make sure you have 3-3 Zealots and air weapons that is the same as whatever armor upgrade it is for the thor, 0/0 Carriers do 48 less damage to 0/3 Thors :/ Do people like you even try what you're saying before you post? It's incredible easy to magic box void rays, and I actually did the tests and came up the numbers right above your post. Even if you have 0-0-0 VR's against his 3-3 Thors, they will still lose five thors before all your void rays die. That is also with equal numbers, and thors cost more, and cost much more supply - void rays are clearly the counter to thors in small or large numbers. Carriers aren't always a viable option.
I'm actually talking about a realistic situation, there are never games were Terran goes mass thor ONLY, there is also Viking/Marine support, getting voids into position can be difficult then, especially if you factor in repair
|
On February 12 2011 00:03 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 00:01 Salv wrote:On February 11 2011 23:58 Dommk wrote:On February 11 2011 08:03 darklordjac wrote:On February 11 2011 07:58 Jacuzzi wrote:On February 11 2011 07:46 Incarnite wrote:
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a. If you've got the micro to magic box a shit ton of void rays, then by all means go right ahead and go mass VR against mass thors. The splash damage from a shit ton of thors is absolutely ridiculous. Magic boxing really doesn't require that much micro, and don't void rays shoot while moving on top of that? Voidrays are slow and large units, I dare you to try magic box them over thors, you will lose most of them before you get them overhead . I find voidrays good vs Thors in small numbers, but when it becomes to mass Thors with repair, they just die too fast, and voids tend to clump up easier than mutas due to size, especially when Thors start dieing. I think a good idea is to do a surprise Carrier Voidray Zealot Archon bust, if it fails then Terran will reactor vikings and you will no longer be able to go Carrier/Voidray , make sure you have 3-3 Zealots and air weapons that is the same as whatever armor upgrade it is for the thor, 0/0 Carriers do 48 less damage to 0/3 Thors :/ Do people like you even try what you're saying before you post? It's incredible easy to magic box void rays, and I actually did the tests and came up the numbers right above your post. Even if you have 0-0-0 VR's against his 3-3 Thors, they will still lose five thors before all your void rays die. That is also with equal numbers, and thors cost more, and cost much more supply - void rays are clearly the counter to thors in small or large numbers. Carriers aren't always a viable option. I'm actually talking about a realistic situation, there are never games were Terran goes mass thor ONLY, there is also Viking/Marine support, getting voids into position can be difficult then, especially if you factor in repair
People do go mass thor. Besides the fact that this is what the OP was actually about, watch Artosis' GSL 4 qualifiers, he fell to this same style - a little bit of bio, but mostly mass thors. For every extra unit the Terran has, that's extra units that the Protoss has, so your argument that void rays aren't the answer is wrong.
As far as repair goes, it's only useful if there are four to five or more on a single thor. If you're massing thors, what are you going to do, bring along 50+ SCV's? You have storm at this point, no Terran in their right mind would do that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
