|
Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/137262-1v1-terran-protoss-shakuras-plateau
Foreword: I was just promoted to Platinum from Gold and feel pretty awful at this game.
I'm kind of mindboggled after this game and could really use some input about how I could have approached it better. It's one of the first big macro games I've gotten into with Terran at this level, and my army just seemed to have no effect on his mass of Thors.
I responded to his building thors initially by going double robo and making a good number of immortals but that didn't quite seem to do the trick. I know my first engagement was just kind of dumb because I went up his ramp funneling my units into a path where they couldn't all attack(and Thors out-range Immortals by a good bit). So I know that was my first big mistake that set me back. I had just been hoping to whittle down his Thor numbers before they got too enormous.
I was tempted to go DTs initially but he got a rather quick Raven for detection. Later on I eventually got 4 bases up and did a little harass with zealots at his 3rd(killed around 30 SCVs, but his army was already huge), and our 200 armies met and mine flat evaporated. My composition was immortals, zealots, couple sentries, stalkers and a few colossi, while he had thors, bioball, couple ghosts, vikings, raven.
Things I think I could have done better:
-perhaps tried to snipe his Raven and go for Dark Templars
-Do more harass in his main to screw with his production perhaps and keep his army back?
-I upgraded shields instead of armor, which I believe was dumb because he had EMP.
Watch the final 200 vs 200 army battle around 24 minutes and notice my food drops 100 and I don't think I killed even a single one of his 10 Thors.
I found a thread related to Mass Thor, though in my replay the enemy had an additional group of vikings that made short work of my Colossi:
Related Thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=184813
So do you think I should have just started going air as soon as I saw he had thors? It seems like a good bit of other Toss players have trouble with this, so I could really use some input. Gracias!
|
I find void rays to be the best answer to thors-- Depends on how much marine support there is, though. When the thor count gets extreme, there's no good answer.
|
Storm Bio. Separate your immortals from your HTs (as ghosts will have to pick who to EMP). Get void rays OR carriers. If it's 24 minutes in the game there really is no excuse not to tech to Carriers vs. Terran, they simply OWN. You could use mothership and Vortex half his army. And if he decides to put everything in the vortex, just get storms ready when vortex is over. Get immortals, you should have ZERO stalkers and maybe 1 or 2 sentries for GS, that's about it.
A very important concept that plat and diamond players need to grasp is that you can't just build one unit to counter his army, but rather build the right amount of certain units to counter different aspects of his army.
If you storm the bio then your Void/Immortal composition will simply clean up the thors and whatever remnants of his bio he has left.
|
Hey that's my build! :D gg bro maybe we should practice sometime?
|
Haha! Yes man, I would absolutely be down to practice sometime lol. That's hilarious you saw this!
(for those who haven't viewed the replay, WastedScotch was the other player)
The build was super strong. Have you seen many viable builds from Toss that work against it?
|
I don't like theorycraft that much but I have never encountered someone who went mass thors on ladder. I did however have somebody do a 1 base push with 4 thors and a ton of marines and scvs but unfortunately I lost the replay. Some people will tell you void rays are a good counter to thors, BUT that only counters a small number of thors as the splash damage from a metric-ass-shit-fuckton of thors actually vaporizes a mass of void rays (you can try it in a unit tester if you don't believe me). Other people will tell you that immortals are a good unit to deal with thors, but as you said the strike cannons focus the immortals down before they can do enough damage.
My solution is a healthy mix of immortals, void rays, and gateway units. The exact mix? Hard to say, but I would go for an almost equal number of VRs and Immortals, but maybe a couple more immortals. That mix worked for me against the 4 thor push I faced yesterday but like I said, I lost the replay or I would show you. 
|
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a.
|
Its not really a mass thor build... my 200/200 army consisted of somewhere around 40 marauders, 10 thors, 10 vikings, 1 raven, and 2 ghosts and a few medivacs . With 3 vehicle armor and 3 Bio attack. I feel i just out macro ed and out upgraded you. My opening was the thor emp expand.
Thor's are the back bone but i could have really transitioned into anything and was prepared for anything.
|
On February 11 2011 07:46 Incarnite wrote:
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a.
If you've got the micro to magic box a shit ton of void rays, then by all means go right ahead and go mass VR against mass thors. The splash damage from a shit ton of thors is absolutely ridiculous.
|
On February 11 2011 07:58 Jacuzzi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 07:46 Incarnite wrote:
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a. If you've got the micro to magic box a shit ton of void rays, then by all means go right ahead and go mass VR against mass thors. The splash damage from a shit ton of thors is absolutely ridiculous.
Magic boxing really doesn't require that much micro, and don't void rays shoot while moving on top of that?
|
The only time ive ever really lost with this is when im expanding. There is a window of opportunity for a quick immortal push as im expanding cause i dont have emp yet.
|
In general, an opponent that is making a mass thor army will be so immobile that you should be able to take extra bases and run him over with big macro play.
In terms of army composition, the new hotness that is a void ray / colossus ball will roflstomp any bio + thor sort of plays.
Mass immortal is risky against a large number of thors because the cannon ability for thors is very good at killing immortals.
|
Wow, my next PvT after this was another guy who built up not only 12 Thors, but several Tanks as well. I tried going for both several void rays and DTs, but he had a bajillion scans ready and during my main engagement I don't think I even had close to enough voids and I forgot to magic box them.
|
On February 11 2011 08:03 darklordjac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 07:58 Jacuzzi wrote:On February 11 2011 07:46 Incarnite wrote:
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a. If you've got the micro to magic box a shit ton of void rays, then by all means go right ahead and go mass VR against mass thors. The splash damage from a shit ton of thors is absolutely ridiculous. Magic boxing really doesn't require that much micro, and don't void rays shoot while moving on top of that?
Magic boxing requires micro. Like? Move and Hold? WOWWWWWWWWW. And people say kiting is easy...
|
I'm at school so i can't watch replay. DTs and immos are good against thor, but when they have strike cannon/raven it gets hard. so make warp prisms! it forces his thors to move around the map, and I believe a speed upgraded warp prism is faster than all terran units not called the hellion
|
On February 11 2011 07:58 Jacuzzi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 07:46 Incarnite wrote:
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a. If you've got the micro to magic box a shit ton of void rays, then by all means go right ahead and go mass VR against mass thors. The splash damage from a shit ton of thors is absolutely ridiculous.
The entire point of magic boxing is that you can keep units in formation with little effort.
On February 11 2011 08:03 darklordjac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 07:58 Jacuzzi wrote:On February 11 2011 07:46 Incarnite wrote:
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a. If you've got the micro to magic box a shit ton of void rays, then by all means go right ahead and go mass VR against mass thors. The splash damage from a shit ton of thors is absolutely ridiculous. Magic boxing really doesn't require that much micro, and don't void rays shoot while moving on top of that?
Yes, it does, which makes magic boxing as void rays even more effective.
Here are some VR vs Thor numbers BTW:
0-0-0 VR vs Thor 0-0
5 vs 5 - 3 VR survive
10 vs 10 - 7 VR survive
15 vs 15 - 7 VR survive
0-0-0 VR vs Thor 3-3
5 vs 5 - 2.5 Thor survive
10 vs 10 - 6 Thor survive
15 vs 15 = 10 Thor survive
0-3-3 VR vs Thor 3-3
5 vs 5 - 2.5 VR survive
10 vs 10 - 4.5 VR survive
15 vs 15 - 6 VR survive.
|
On February 11 2011 08:03 darklordjac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 07:58 Jacuzzi wrote:On February 11 2011 07:46 Incarnite wrote:
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a. If you've got the micro to magic box a shit ton of void rays, then by all means go right ahead and go mass VR against mass thors. The splash damage from a shit ton of thors is absolutely ridiculous. Magic boxing really doesn't require that much micro, and don't void rays shoot while moving on top of that?
Voidrays are slow and large units, I dare you to try magic box them over thors, you will lose most of them before you get them overhead .
I find voidrays good vs Thors in small numbers, but when it becomes to mass Thors with repair, they just die too fast, and voids tend to clump up easier than mutas due to size, especially when Thors start dieing.
I think a good idea is to do a surprise Carrier Voidray Zealot Archon bust, if it fails then Terran will reactor vikings and you will no longer be able to go Carrier/Voidray , make sure you have 3-3 Zealots and air weapons that is the same as whatever armor upgrade it is for the thor, 0/0 Carriers do 48 less damage to 0/3 Thors :/
Wow, my next PvT after this was another guy who built up not only 12 Thors, but several Tanks as well. I tried going for both several void rays and DTs, but he had a bajillion scans ready and during my main engagement I don't think I even had close to enough voids and I forgot to magic box them.
Carrier Zealot Templar can bust through Tank/Thor, pure Thor is a bit tougher. You need to take a fast third when you see Terran meching, it can be pretty brutal if it is close postions, imo, try build tech in another base if it is close positions because that slow push is going to get there before you can blink on maps like Meta/LT
|
On February 11 2011 23:58 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 08:03 darklordjac wrote:On February 11 2011 07:58 Jacuzzi wrote:On February 11 2011 07:46 Incarnite wrote:
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a. If you've got the micro to magic box a shit ton of void rays, then by all means go right ahead and go mass VR against mass thors. The splash damage from a shit ton of thors is absolutely ridiculous. Magic boxing really doesn't require that much micro, and don't void rays shoot while moving on top of that? Voidrays are slow and large units, I dare you to try magic box them over thors, you will lose most of them before you get them overhead . I find voidrays good vs Thors in small numbers, but when it becomes to mass Thors with repair, they just die too fast, and voids tend to clump up easier than mutas due to size, especially when Thors start dieing. I think a good idea is to do a surprise Carrier Voidray Zealot Archon bust, if it fails then Terran will reactor vikings and you will no longer be able to go Carrier/Voidray , make sure you have 3-3 Zealots and air weapons that is the same as whatever armor upgrade it is for the thor, 0/0 Carriers do 48 less damage to 0/3 Thors :/
Do people like you even try what you're saying before you post? It's incredible easy to magic box void rays, and I actually did the tests and came up the numbers right above your post. Even if you have 0-0-0 VR's against his 3-3 Thors, they will still lose five thors before all your void rays die. That is also with equal numbers, and thors cost more, and cost much more supply - void rays are clearly the counter to thors in small or large numbers. Carriers aren't always a viable option.
|
On February 12 2011 00:01 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 23:58 Dommk wrote:On February 11 2011 08:03 darklordjac wrote:On February 11 2011 07:58 Jacuzzi wrote:On February 11 2011 07:46 Incarnite wrote:
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a. If you've got the micro to magic box a shit ton of void rays, then by all means go right ahead and go mass VR against mass thors. The splash damage from a shit ton of thors is absolutely ridiculous. Magic boxing really doesn't require that much micro, and don't void rays shoot while moving on top of that? Voidrays are slow and large units, I dare you to try magic box them over thors, you will lose most of them before you get them overhead . I find voidrays good vs Thors in small numbers, but when it becomes to mass Thors with repair, they just die too fast, and voids tend to clump up easier than mutas due to size, especially when Thors start dieing. I think a good idea is to do a surprise Carrier Voidray Zealot Archon bust, if it fails then Terran will reactor vikings and you will no longer be able to go Carrier/Voidray , make sure you have 3-3 Zealots and air weapons that is the same as whatever armor upgrade it is for the thor, 0/0 Carriers do 48 less damage to 0/3 Thors :/ Do people like you even try what you're saying before you post? It's incredible easy to magic box void rays, and I actually did the tests and came up the numbers right above your post. Even if you have 0-0-0 VR's against his 3-3 Thors, they will still lose five thors before all your void rays die. That is also with equal numbers, and thors cost more, and cost much more supply - void rays are clearly the counter to thors in small or large numbers. Carriers aren't always a viable option.
I'm actually talking about a realistic situation, there are never games were Terran goes mass thor ONLY, there is also Viking/Marine support, getting voids into position can be difficult then, especially if you factor in repair
|
On February 12 2011 00:03 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 00:01 Salv wrote:On February 11 2011 23:58 Dommk wrote:On February 11 2011 08:03 darklordjac wrote:On February 11 2011 07:58 Jacuzzi wrote:On February 11 2011 07:46 Incarnite wrote:
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a. If you've got the micro to magic box a shit ton of void rays, then by all means go right ahead and go mass VR against mass thors. The splash damage from a shit ton of thors is absolutely ridiculous. Magic boxing really doesn't require that much micro, and don't void rays shoot while moving on top of that? Voidrays are slow and large units, I dare you to try magic box them over thors, you will lose most of them before you get them overhead . I find voidrays good vs Thors in small numbers, but when it becomes to mass Thors with repair, they just die too fast, and voids tend to clump up easier than mutas due to size, especially when Thors start dieing. I think a good idea is to do a surprise Carrier Voidray Zealot Archon bust, if it fails then Terran will reactor vikings and you will no longer be able to go Carrier/Voidray , make sure you have 3-3 Zealots and air weapons that is the same as whatever armor upgrade it is for the thor, 0/0 Carriers do 48 less damage to 0/3 Thors :/ Do people like you even try what you're saying before you post? It's incredible easy to magic box void rays, and I actually did the tests and came up the numbers right above your post. Even if you have 0-0-0 VR's against his 3-3 Thors, they will still lose five thors before all your void rays die. That is also with equal numbers, and thors cost more, and cost much more supply - void rays are clearly the counter to thors in small or large numbers. Carriers aren't always a viable option. I'm actually talking about a realistic situation, there are never games were Terran goes mass thor ONLY, there is also Viking/Marine support, getting voids into position can be difficult then, especially if you factor in repair
People do go mass thor. Besides the fact that this is what the OP was actually about, watch Artosis' GSL 4 qualifiers, he fell to this same style - a little bit of bio, but mostly mass thors. For every extra unit the Terran has, that's extra units that the Protoss has, so your argument that void rays aren't the answer is wrong.
As far as repair goes, it's only useful if there are four to five or more on a single thor. If you're massing thors, what are you going to do, bring along 50+ SCV's? You have storm at this point, no Terran in their right mind would do that.
|
On February 12 2011 00:09 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 00:03 Dommk wrote:On February 12 2011 00:01 Salv wrote:On February 11 2011 23:58 Dommk wrote:On February 11 2011 08:03 darklordjac wrote:On February 11 2011 07:58 Jacuzzi wrote:On February 11 2011 07:46 Incarnite wrote:
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a. If you've got the micro to magic box a shit ton of void rays, then by all means go right ahead and go mass VR against mass thors. The splash damage from a shit ton of thors is absolutely ridiculous. Magic boxing really doesn't require that much micro, and don't void rays shoot while moving on top of that? Voidrays are slow and large units, I dare you to try magic box them over thors, you will lose most of them before you get them overhead . I find voidrays good vs Thors in small numbers, but when it becomes to mass Thors with repair, they just die too fast, and voids tend to clump up easier than mutas due to size, especially when Thors start dieing. I think a good idea is to do a surprise Carrier Voidray Zealot Archon bust, if it fails then Terran will reactor vikings and you will no longer be able to go Carrier/Voidray , make sure you have 3-3 Zealots and air weapons that is the same as whatever armor upgrade it is for the thor, 0/0 Carriers do 48 less damage to 0/3 Thors :/ Do people like you even try what you're saying before you post? It's incredible easy to magic box void rays, and I actually did the tests and came up the numbers right above your post. Even if you have 0-0-0 VR's against his 3-3 Thors, they will still lose five thors before all your void rays die. That is also with equal numbers, and thors cost more, and cost much more supply - void rays are clearly the counter to thors in small or large numbers. Carriers aren't always a viable option. I'm actually talking about a realistic situation, there are never games were Terran goes mass thor ONLY, there is also Viking/Marine support, getting voids into position can be difficult then, especially if you factor in repair People do go mass thor. Besides the fact that this is what the OP was actually about, watch Artosis' GSL 4 qualifiers, he fell to this same style - a little bit of bio, but mostly mass thors. For every extra unit the Terran has, that's extra units that the Protoss has, so your argument that void rays aren't the answer is wrong. As far as repair goes, it's only useful if there are four to five or more on a single thor. If you're massing thors, what are you going to do, bring along 50+ SCV's? You have storm at this point, no Terran in their right mind would do that.
Have you actually played against Mass thor? I'd love to see anyone getting away with mass Voidray against mass Thor. I HAVE played against Mass thor, and rarely has mass voidrays actually worked. In some cases I have won the fight but the marine/Thor/Viking reinforcement that comes easily deals with your remaining voids. You need something sustainable, like Carriers to range marines/Viking/Thors supported by Immortal/Zealot/Templar/Archon
|
I've lost vs mass-thors with marine/banshee-support yesterday....and it was a terrible player, I raged quite a lot because I had like double the bases. Immortals really don't cut it after thors AND marines have reached a critical mark and strike-cannons take out the "front row".
I really feel like carriers is the only safe option for lategame. Going robotics-heavy with immortals/colossi, slowly replacing colossi with templars and then switching over to carriers once the heavy macro and therefore mass-thors kick in. Then something like chargelot/immortal/carrier/high-templar should do the trick.
|
On February 12 2011 00:15 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 00:09 Salv wrote:On February 12 2011 00:03 Dommk wrote:On February 12 2011 00:01 Salv wrote:On February 11 2011 23:58 Dommk wrote:On February 11 2011 08:03 darklordjac wrote:On February 11 2011 07:58 Jacuzzi wrote:On February 11 2011 07:46 Incarnite wrote:
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a. If you've got the micro to magic box a shit ton of void rays, then by all means go right ahead and go mass VR against mass thors. The splash damage from a shit ton of thors is absolutely ridiculous. Magic boxing really doesn't require that much micro, and don't void rays shoot while moving on top of that? Voidrays are slow and large units, I dare you to try magic box them over thors, you will lose most of them before you get them overhead . I find voidrays good vs Thors in small numbers, but when it becomes to mass Thors with repair, they just die too fast, and voids tend to clump up easier than mutas due to size, especially when Thors start dieing. I think a good idea is to do a surprise Carrier Voidray Zealot Archon bust, if it fails then Terran will reactor vikings and you will no longer be able to go Carrier/Voidray , make sure you have 3-3 Zealots and air weapons that is the same as whatever armor upgrade it is for the thor, 0/0 Carriers do 48 less damage to 0/3 Thors :/ Do people like you even try what you're saying before you post? It's incredible easy to magic box void rays, and I actually did the tests and came up the numbers right above your post. Even if you have 0-0-0 VR's against his 3-3 Thors, they will still lose five thors before all your void rays die. That is also with equal numbers, and thors cost more, and cost much more supply - void rays are clearly the counter to thors in small or large numbers. Carriers aren't always a viable option. I'm actually talking about a realistic situation, there are never games were Terran goes mass thor ONLY, there is also Viking/Marine support, getting voids into position can be difficult then, especially if you factor in repair People do go mass thor. Besides the fact that this is what the OP was actually about, watch Artosis' GSL 4 qualifiers, he fell to this same style - a little bit of bio, but mostly mass thors. For every extra unit the Terran has, that's extra units that the Protoss has, so your argument that void rays aren't the answer is wrong. As far as repair goes, it's only useful if there are four to five or more on a single thor. If you're massing thors, what are you going to do, bring along 50+ SCV's? You have storm at this point, no Terran in their right mind would do that. Have you actually played against Mass thor? I'd love to see anyone getting away with mass Voidray against mass Thor. I HAVE played against Mass thor, and rarely has mass voidrays actually worked. In some cases I have won the fight but the marine/Thor/Viking reinforcement that comes easily deals with your remaining voids. You need something sustainable, like Carriers to range marines/Viking/Thors supported by Immortal/Zealot/Templar/Archon
Yes I have, however I doubt if you actually have. First of all, you talk about the difficulty in magic boxing void rays, even though the entire point of magic boxing is that you can keep your units in formation with ease. It's not some complex manuever.
Second of all, the counter to mass thors, which the OP was about is VR. I don't know how you can dispute this, look at the numbers I posted. Armor/WPN upgraded VR's beat maxed thors without problem if you magic box. Your entire argument hinges upon the additional units that Terran is going to bring, like mass SCV's to repair, vikings, and marines. Magic vikings cuts into the Terran's thor count. Not only that, but that would be three different unit types to upgrade then: Mech, Bio, an Air.
In a battle scenario, you need to deal with their additional units, I thought this was self-explanatory. You don't just mass void rays against thors no matter what else they have, you get void rays in response to thor, and you deal with their additional units because after that, the thors are no threat to void rays.
The reason why thor/marine is used as the composition is because gas is going into thors and ghosts to EMP. All they have leftover is minerals, so they make marines. Storm takes care of everything the Terran can make except thors, that's why you need to do something different. Carriers are ideal, but not always viable, which is why you need void rays.
Just curious what's your league?
|
As i play mech vs Protoss almost every game i have had the thor vs voidray battle a couple of times. I usually happens when i have a solid mech composition (hellion, tank, thor) and begin to gain ground that i miss the protoss building voids/carriers and not adding enough vikings in time.
And i can just tell you that thors vs void rays DOES NOT work. At least not a cost effective or supply effective basis. What you need to realize is that a thor does LESS DPS THAN A STIMMED MARINE vs a voidray (while costing 10 times as much in resources and 6 times as much in supply). So unless you are 1a-ing your voidrays into the thors when they are all bunched up so they take full splash damage, you will win with voidrays vs thors, given about equal cost/supply.
If you take the splash for the thors and complain about it it's like a terran complaining about banelings after he just a-moved his marine ball into a couple banes.
On a different topic: I believe hellion/thor/viking and hellion/thor/bc are actually the strongest possible terran compositions against protoss. Unfortunately, not many protoss let me get there alive
|
On February 12 2011 00:24 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 00:15 Dommk wrote:On February 12 2011 00:09 Salv wrote:On February 12 2011 00:03 Dommk wrote:On February 12 2011 00:01 Salv wrote:On February 11 2011 23:58 Dommk wrote:On February 11 2011 08:03 darklordjac wrote:On February 11 2011 07:58 Jacuzzi wrote:On February 11 2011 07:46 Incarnite wrote:
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a. If you've got the micro to magic box a shit ton of void rays, then by all means go right ahead and go mass VR against mass thors. The splash damage from a shit ton of thors is absolutely ridiculous. Magic boxing really doesn't require that much micro, and don't void rays shoot while moving on top of that? Voidrays are slow and large units, I dare you to try magic box them over thors, you will lose most of them before you get them overhead . I find voidrays good vs Thors in small numbers, but when it becomes to mass Thors with repair, they just die too fast, and voids tend to clump up easier than mutas due to size, especially when Thors start dieing. I think a good idea is to do a surprise Carrier Voidray Zealot Archon bust, if it fails then Terran will reactor vikings and you will no longer be able to go Carrier/Voidray , make sure you have 3-3 Zealots and air weapons that is the same as whatever armor upgrade it is for the thor, 0/0 Carriers do 48 less damage to 0/3 Thors :/ Do people like you even try what you're saying before you post? It's incredible easy to magic box void rays, and I actually did the tests and came up the numbers right above your post. Even if you have 0-0-0 VR's against his 3-3 Thors, they will still lose five thors before all your void rays die. That is also with equal numbers, and thors cost more, and cost much more supply - void rays are clearly the counter to thors in small or large numbers. Carriers aren't always a viable option. I'm actually talking about a realistic situation, there are never games were Terran goes mass thor ONLY, there is also Viking/Marine support, getting voids into position can be difficult then, especially if you factor in repair People do go mass thor. Besides the fact that this is what the OP was actually about, watch Artosis' GSL 4 qualifiers, he fell to this same style - a little bit of bio, but mostly mass thors. For every extra unit the Terran has, that's extra units that the Protoss has, so your argument that void rays aren't the answer is wrong. As far as repair goes, it's only useful if there are four to five or more on a single thor. If you're massing thors, what are you going to do, bring along 50+ SCV's? You have storm at this point, no Terran in their right mind would do that. Have you actually played against Mass thor? I'd love to see anyone getting away with mass Voidray against mass Thor. I HAVE played against Mass thor, and rarely has mass voidrays actually worked. In some cases I have won the fight but the marine/Thor/Viking reinforcement that comes easily deals with your remaining voids. You need something sustainable, like Carriers to range marines/Viking/Thors supported by Immortal/Zealot/Templar/Archon Yes I have, however I doubt if you actually have. First of all, you talk about the difficulty in magic boxing void rays, even though the entire point of magic boxing is that you can keep your units in formation with ease. It's not some complex manuever. Second of all, the counter to mass thors, which the OP was about is VR. I don't know how you can dispute this, look at the numbers I posted. Armor/WPN upgraded VR's beat maxed thors without problem if you magic box. Your entire argument hinges upon the additional units that Terran is going to bring, like mass SCV's to repair, vikings, and marines. Magic vikings cuts into the Terran's thor count. Not only that, but that would be three different unit types to upgrade then: Mech, Bio, an Air. In a battle scenario, you need to deal with their additional units, I thought this was self-explanatory. You don't just mass void rays against thors no matter what else they have, you get void rays in response to thor, and you deal with their additional units because after that, the thors are no threat to void rays.The reason why thor/marine is used as the composition is because gas is going into thors and ghosts to EMP. All they have leftover is minerals, so they make marines. Storm takes care of everything the Terran can make except thors, that's why you need to do something different. Carriers are ideal, but not always viable, which is why you need void rays. Just curious what's your league?
2700 Diamond. But anyway, magic boxing thor is much more difficult in an actual game, I cant stress how marines and vikings change everything, your voids are very slow and take a long time to move into position, if you try magic box against Marine/Thor with or without viking, you will lose a lot of Voidrays before even doing damage.
Counter to mass thor was speed rays, not anymore, Voidrays aren't as amazing as they were before, with speedrays you could get into position and maneuver around. You have to actually look beyond the numbers and take the entire game as a whole you can't just nullify marines because apparently you have storms, again, I have yet to see anyone go mass voidray post speedray nerf against mass thor and be successful. If you can, I would LOVE to see a replay of someone doing this in an actual game.
A Carrier transition from a Gasteway/Templar or Colossus/Templar is much more viable, IMO, than going mass Voidrays and has been more successful for me
Voidrays work much better against Thor/Tank, but not Thor/Marine.
Again, I'd love to see a replay of anyone doing mass Voidrays to deal with mass Thor, because i certainly can't get it to work
|
Mass thors can be countered by Void/Immortal/Zealot mix. I don't see why people have to counter something with the mass of another unit. I have tried a few things and the mix of voids, immortals and zealots leaves me with a substantial unit advantage at the end.
Really any substantial amount of bio will require a splash damage response. It's up to you to decide.
If they have tanks... well that just made your life easier.
|
On February 12 2011 00:33 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 00:24 Salv wrote:On February 12 2011 00:15 Dommk wrote:On February 12 2011 00:09 Salv wrote:On February 12 2011 00:03 Dommk wrote:On February 12 2011 00:01 Salv wrote:On February 11 2011 23:58 Dommk wrote:On February 11 2011 08:03 darklordjac wrote:On February 11 2011 07:58 Jacuzzi wrote:On February 11 2011 07:46 Incarnite wrote:
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a. If you've got the micro to magic box a shit ton of void rays, then by all means go right ahead and go mass VR against mass thors. The splash damage from a shit ton of thors is absolutely ridiculous. Magic boxing really doesn't require that much micro, and don't void rays shoot while moving on top of that? Voidrays are slow and large units, I dare you to try magic box them over thors, you will lose most of them before you get them overhead . I find voidrays good vs Thors in small numbers, but when it becomes to mass Thors with repair, they just die too fast, and voids tend to clump up easier than mutas due to size, especially when Thors start dieing. I think a good idea is to do a surprise Carrier Voidray Zealot Archon bust, if it fails then Terran will reactor vikings and you will no longer be able to go Carrier/Voidray , make sure you have 3-3 Zealots and air weapons that is the same as whatever armor upgrade it is for the thor, 0/0 Carriers do 48 less damage to 0/3 Thors :/ Do people like you even try what you're saying before you post? It's incredible easy to magic box void rays, and I actually did the tests and came up the numbers right above your post. Even if you have 0-0-0 VR's against his 3-3 Thors, they will still lose five thors before all your void rays die. That is also with equal numbers, and thors cost more, and cost much more supply - void rays are clearly the counter to thors in small or large numbers. Carriers aren't always a viable option. I'm actually talking about a realistic situation, there are never games were Terran goes mass thor ONLY, there is also Viking/Marine support, getting voids into position can be difficult then, especially if you factor in repair People do go mass thor. Besides the fact that this is what the OP was actually about, watch Artosis' GSL 4 qualifiers, he fell to this same style - a little bit of bio, but mostly mass thors. For every extra unit the Terran has, that's extra units that the Protoss has, so your argument that void rays aren't the answer is wrong. As far as repair goes, it's only useful if there are four to five or more on a single thor. If you're massing thors, what are you going to do, bring along 50+ SCV's? You have storm at this point, no Terran in their right mind would do that. Have you actually played against Mass thor? I'd love to see anyone getting away with mass Voidray against mass Thor. I HAVE played against Mass thor, and rarely has mass voidrays actually worked. In some cases I have won the fight but the marine/Thor/Viking reinforcement that comes easily deals with your remaining voids. You need something sustainable, like Carriers to range marines/Viking/Thors supported by Immortal/Zealot/Templar/Archon Yes I have, however I doubt if you actually have. First of all, you talk about the difficulty in magic boxing void rays, even though the entire point of magic boxing is that you can keep your units in formation with ease. It's not some complex manuever. Second of all, the counter to mass thors, which the OP was about is VR. I don't know how you can dispute this, look at the numbers I posted. Armor/WPN upgraded VR's beat maxed thors without problem if you magic box. Your entire argument hinges upon the additional units that Terran is going to bring, like mass SCV's to repair, vikings, and marines. Magic vikings cuts into the Terran's thor count. Not only that, but that would be three different unit types to upgrade then: Mech, Bio, an Air. In a battle scenario, you need to deal with their additional units, I thought this was self-explanatory. You don't just mass void rays against thors no matter what else they have, you get void rays in response to thor, and you deal with their additional units because after that, the thors are no threat to void rays.The reason why thor/marine is used as the composition is because gas is going into thors and ghosts to EMP. All they have leftover is minerals, so they make marines. Storm takes care of everything the Terran can make except thors, that's why you need to do something different. Carriers are ideal, but not always viable, which is why you need void rays. Just curious what's your league? 2700 Diamond. But anyway, magic boxing thor is much more difficult in an actual game, I cant stress how marines and vikings change everything, your voids are very slow and take a long time to move into position, if you try magic box against Marine/Thor with or without viking, you will lose a lot of Voidrays before even doing damage. Counter to mass thor was speed rays, not anymore, Voidrays aren't as amazing as they were before, with speedrays you could get into position and maneuver around. You have to actually look beyond the numbers and take the entire game as a whole you can't just nullify marines because apparently you have storms, again, I have yet to see anyone go mass voidray post speedray nerf against mass thor and be successful. If you can, I would LOVE to see a replay of someone doing this in an actual game. A Carrier transition from a Gasteway/Templar or Colossus/Templar is much more viable, IMO, than going mass Voidrays. Voidrays work much better against Thor/Tank, but not Thor/Marine. Again, I'd love to see a replay of anyone doing mass Voidrays to deal with mass Thor, because i certainly can't get it to work
I don't have a replay on hand, but when I do I'll post it. Even so though, I think the tests speak for themselves. Void rays are more effective now than they were before. There damage is more normalized, and they do +20% additional damage to massive units (Thor). I would rather have the void ray of new vs the speedier, but weaker void ray of old.
And yes, I can nullify marines because I have storm. You didn't explain your argument of why I can't. Marines die in a couple seconds to a psi storm. Vikings also die quickly to psi storm. Open unit tester, put in two equal supply armies, give some gateway units, void rays, and some high templar to Protoss, and give Terran at least 10 thors and then whatever else you'd like to even it up. You'll be surprised at the results.
|
its very simple, if you let your opponent get to 10 thor your already fucked. ive tested it a million times against a friend and against 10 thors backed up with marines you just dont win. (with a similair cost army)
|
Any Videos about magic boxing Voidrays against Thors?
i mean now with Speedupgrade Removed, does this still work properly in game?
|
You don't even need to "magic box" voidrays. They don't have such a big tendency to clump up like mutas have simply because of their greater range. Split up the voidrays in a nice arc before the battle and even 1-a moving them will do just fine.
As for the rest of the terran army - just kill them with the rest of your army. Marine die easily to both storm or collossi. Pretty much everything else can be dealt with by chargelots.
|
I've faced mass thor before and totally annihilated it. If you're at the point where you have 3 bases, you should be able to sustain multiple stargates pumping carriers. If your opponent is thor heavy, carriers + zealots + HTs is really nasty, because if they're target firing the carriers, they're doing much lower DPS than if they were shooting your zealots.
What about vikings you say? Vikings actually only just break even in cost efficiency versus carriers because both have similar range levels. Viking's can't kite carriers so well because while the interceptor engagement range is 8, they have a chase range out a while further. HTs are used for storm against anything that is actually a threat to the carriers - i.e. vikings and marines. Viking mobs are extremely inefficient versus carriers when they have to storm dodge as well. Zealots just mess stuff up really badly when half his army is confused shooting at interceptors and are an important mineral sink since this composition is very gas heavy. It is also amazingly efficient at destroying anything Terran attempts to use. I would say this particular composition is somewhat weak versus well placed EMPs, because having no templar energy messes you up a bit.
|
counter to mass thor is mass immortal.
|
On February 12 2011 01:27 whomybuddy wrote:
counter to mass thor is mass immortal.
250mm cannon...
Not to say you shouldn't mix in a few immortals, but mass immortal is by no means good. They are fat, slow, and short-ranged. Thors will usually be accompanied by marines as well.
Voidrays ARE the answer, but not ALONE. You need VOIDS, ZEALOTS and TEMPLAR.
Here's why.
1) Thors are gas heavy, the terran will be dumping minerals into marines. Marines, if unoccupied, will eat voids for lunch. You need to storm them. Zealots will also draw their fire and prevent them from running in.
2) Thors auto-repair thors are annoying. You need to storm them.
3) Thors are big, which makes them reasonably vulnerable to melee units (many can attack at the same time), plus with templar and voids, you WILL need a mineral sink. Zealots 4tw.
|
Don't go VRs if you see mass Thors...yes it's suppose to be the "counter" to it but with Thor's splash damage, Thors will overrun VRs as VRs have the tendency to clump together...
Go immortals but if they have strike cannons, go Carriers
|
On February 12 2011 01:27 whomybuddy wrote:
counter to mass thor is mass immortal.
Gee thanks, Buddy. I appreciate your comprehensive approach to solving the issue at hand.
I think one of my problems with teching up to carriers is when I see the huge ball of Thors, I start just trying to produce as many units as I possibly can to fend them off if they come at me. I'll have to try the HT/Carrier approach though and see if that can possibly work. In my last game against Thor/Tank I only had one stargate producing Voids, so I think I would have been better off with 2 Stargates to get that critical mass, as I only had about 5-6 voids attacking into his 12 Thors in addition to a bunch of speedlots.
|
Could we have a good Protoss talking clearly about how to react against a camping Terran going like 14 thors + 4-6 tanks, assuming you have a real macro advantage (1 or 2 more expos).
Because someone say something, then another one come to tell the opposite. This is an interesting thread so if you are Protoss, write your rank/division and your solution to this problem.
Thanks
|
On February 12 2011 02:59 parn wrote:
Could we have a good Protoss talking clearly about how to react against a camping Terran going like 14 thors + 4-6 tanks, assuming you have a real macro advantage (1 or 2 more expos).
Because someone say something, then another one come to tell the opposite. This is an interesting thread so if you are Protoss, write your rank/division and your solution to this problem.
Thanks
Granted, i'm not a protoss but what would kill me if i attempted this: The toss grabbing a quick third and going mass carrier ...
By the time i'd have 14 thors he'd have a fleet of carriers and a mothership. Carriers are really hard to counter as terran, vikings only work so-so. The only thing that terrans have that really counters carriers are BCs with yamato - which he won't have if all his gas is in thors ...
|
On February 12 2011 03:03 Lurk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 02:59 parn wrote:
Could we have a good Protoss talking clearly about how to react against a camping Terran going like 14 thors + 4-6 tanks, assuming you have a real macro advantage (1 or 2 more expos).
Because someone say something, then another one come to tell the opposite. This is an interesting thread so if you are Protoss, write your rank/division and your solution to this problem.
Thanks Granted, i'm not a protoss but what would kill me if i attempted this: The toss grabbing a quick third and going mass carrier ... By the time i'd have 14 thors he'd have a fleet of carriers and a mothership. Carriers are really hard to counter as terran, vikings only work so-so. The only thing that terrans have that really counters carriers are BCs with yamato - which he won't have if all his gas is in thors ...
Yep Terran comments are also welcome, ty.
|
Void rays may be a counter to thors, but they are weak against marines and vikings. Carriers on the other hand are just as good against thors, but have no real weakness. Why go void rays when you can go carriers?
|
On February 12 2011 00:20 sleepingdog wrote:
I really feel like carriers is the only safe option for lategame. Going robotics-heavy with immortals/colossi, slowly replacing colossi with templars and then switching over to carriers once the heavy macro and therefore mass-thors kick in. Then something like chargelot/immortal/carrier/high-templar should do the trick.
This is correct, except I'd skip the templars and jump straight to carriers from a robo-heavy early-mid game. Templar is going to be useless against mech play and are only good to counter vikings and marines which terran won't get until after you have carriers.
So early game you would want dual robo immortal/colossi with some gateway support, once you realize that terran is just turtling to 200/200 you need additional expansions and go straight for carrier. End game you basically just want as many carriers as possible. Forget about immortals, any leftover supply just fill up with chargelot/HT.
|
On February 12 2011 03:08 parn wrote:
Yep Terran comments are also welcome, ty.
I was just trying to be helpful, but that is obviously not welcome here ... If you'd rather wait for a good protoss to tell you the same thing, so be it ...
|
I think you misunderstood his comment, he was just saying that's cool too
|
Based on the replay: 100% of your zealots died without doing any damage, not because they all died before they got to the enemy, but because they were all trying to attack the Thors but couldn't because the Marauders were in front. I didn't see any EMPs or PDD's go off, but one PDD would have nullified most of your Stalkers from doing anything useful and the EMP would have destroyed your Immortals. You also upgraded Shields, which I have no idea why you did, Immortals get better with Armor upgrades, not Shield upgrades. Same goes with Colossus' and Zealots. (They have more health than shield, IE: Armor upgrades do more for them than a shield upgrade) Also a shield upgrade can be 100% nullified by a single EMP.
If he had gotten 250mm Strike Cannon (And he could have), he would have been able to destroy your Immortals instantly. In my experience (2800 Diamond), +3 Armor upgrade as well as a Guardian Shield and Psi Storm is the best counter to mass Thor. Thors aren't the problem, it's everything else. Smaller more mobile and easily produced units beat Thors until Thors get +3 Attack, which he didn't have.
|
On February 12 2011 03:15 Lurk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 03:08 parn wrote:
Yep Terran comments are also welcome, ty. I was just trying to be helpful, but that is obviously not welcome here ... If you'd rather wait for a good protoss to tell you the same thing, so be it ...
You misunderstood dude  i was just thanking you!
|
I'm sorry i mistook you for one of those biased sarcastic forum trolls.
|
Carriers can work, but given relatively basic thor micro, interceptors can be easily destroyed due to light damage bonus + splash. This is merely an annoyance, though, as thors barely scratch the carriers themselves. Void Rays work pretty well too, but they are much more vulnerable nowadays.
This may seem counterintuitive, but you can actually kite thors with colossi (range up'd obv). I would say just keep massing colossi which will handle all T ground (there will be a significant lack in vikings if your opponent is massing thors). I would personally opt for colossi.
Don't get storm against thors; 80 damage (won't even be full damage since stuff moves) on a thor (storm hits like 1 thor) is such a waste. Use your gas towards robo units.
P lategame>>>T lategame
|
In late game you should try Colossus + mass VRs, pretty hard to counter combo
|
On February 12 2011 03:27 Exiiile wrote:
Based on the replay: 100% of your zealots died without doing any damage, not because they all died before they got to the enemy, but because they were all trying to attack the Thors but couldn't because the Marauders were in front. I didn't see any EMPs or PDD's go off, but one PDD would have nullified most of your Stalkers from doing anything useful and the EMP would have destroyed your Immortals. You also upgraded Shields, which I have no idea why you did, Immortals get better with Armor upgrades, not Shield upgrades. Same goes with Colossus' and Zealots. (They have more health than shield, IE: Armor upgrades do more for them than a shield upgrade) Also a shield upgrade can be 100% nullified by a single EMP.
If he had gotten 250mm Strike Cannon (And he could have), he would have been able to destroy your Immortals instantly. In my experience (2800 Diamond), +3 Armor upgrade as well as a Guardian Shield and Psi Storm is the best counter to mass Thor. Thors aren't the problem, it's everything else. Smaller more mobile and easily produced units beat Thors until Thors get +3 Attack, which he didn't have.
In my opinion this is the only valid answer that has spawned from this thread. Pretty much ever other answer was from some one who didnt even watch the replay and said mass VR or Immortal. Carriers could be a good option.
|
Yeah thanks for being what sounds like the only person who actually watched the replay, Exiiiile. haha
All those points are spot on, though I missed that the zealots were going directly for the thors as I thought I had just attack-moved them. I'll have to watch that engagement again. There seems to be a lot of theory-crafting in this thread (which is what happened in the other one I referenced as well)
|
Immortals and chargelots = win. I didn't watch the rep.
User was warned for this post
|
On February 12 2011 23:59 MacroKing wrote:
Immortals and chargelots = win. I didn't watch the rep.
Shit like this seriously needs to get cracked down on. Come on mods we know you can do it <3
|
Bumping this because this shit really seems to get popular. Once I have a game where I don't screw up on some point a long the way I'll post a H-thread of my own, but for now I'd just appreciate more reps/strategies that go a bit more in detail.
For now I think the consensus is, that against mass-thors you need to start out with a neat robotics-force (I've seen kiwikaki going with 2 robos straight away for immortals/colossi after scouting this) and then transition into either void rays or carriers - where I'd say carriers should work better because they don't get shut down from vikings that efficiently. Also you probably need the templar tech at some point because otherwise +3 marines will be able to inflict to much damage before they die.
Chargelots won't cut it since every thor-play normally adds blueflame hellions at some point which just roast the front-line which is all that takes to negate the charge-threat.
The real question though is: how to structure your game accordingly. Meaning, as we all have played countless games vs MMM we all know that MMM is more mobile and it's fine for us toss-players to stay defensively. Against thor-play it seems like the roles are completely switched and we have to outexpand and harass while getting the transitions on route properly. So, do you try to do some harassment? (DTs, warpprism). Do you take a much quicker third? Do you maybe even try to double expand zerg-style, meaning two expos at different locations? Do you actively try to engage multiple times keeping the thor-count low?
|
I prefer to use a simple archon toilet against this as it flows naturally from a standard toss early late game. VR/carrier transitions can often be impractical due to lack of stargates/upgrades and depend on strong micro.
The mothership should be a standard late game unit in any matchup when you have templar tech, doubly so as heavy thor play relies on clumping; do go heavy on the archons though, you will want 8 or more to offset the thor's high HP.
|
If its mass thors just go absurd amounts of immortals, you'll win.
If they go emp and thors still go immortals.
This will only work if they go truly mass thors and no other units.
|
On February 14 2011 10:35 badcop wrote:
If its mass thors just go absurd amounts of immortals, you'll win.
If they go emp and thors still go immortals.
This will only work if they go truly mass thors and no other units.
Strike cannon + EMP.
|
This thread is really helpful! I just lost on Steppes because this Terran just turtled and massed up a huge number of maxed Thors + ghosts for EMP.
I thought maxed Zealot/Immortal would work but nope
|
Voidrays slaughter thors in every parameter possible (cost, supply, etc), provided you don't clump them up. Supporting marines are easily taken out by a few storms with zealot support. This really isn't a difficult combo to deal with, unless you're stupid enough to mass 1 unit and 1a suicide.
|
this is how i counter thors and its my endgame goal in every TvP
3 collossi (any more than that is a bad idea), charge zealots/ blink stalkers, mass void rays
i only make 1 robo in PvT, to produce 3 collossi (no immortals. immortals suck) and observers
plenty gateways for zealot/stalkers
and 2-3 stargates for mass void rays
i go less on the void rays if my enemy is getting less thors, however a thor switch requires you to get void rays
The reason void rays work so well against thors is because NORMALLY thors will be doing their 90 damage ground attack that rapes your zealots and stalkers, but with void rays you force the thor to deal their weaker slower attack to air units. thors actually have priority in attacking air units so with void rays on the field you force the thor to not attack ground letting your zealots and stalkers do work
now thors 6 x 4 damage to void rays. I try to upgrade shields against terran because normally a terran cannot get vikings, mass thors, AND emp. so because the terran cannot get emp and vikings to backup his mass thors i upgrade shields
the shield upgrade helps my air and my ground, and then i can upgrade air/ground attacks and avoid armor upgrades because shields take the place of that
so thors fully upgraded will be dealing 9 damage to void rays, but with fully upgraded shields and guardian shield that can be reduced to 4 damage. i dont really try to magic box my voidrays instead i spread them slightly and just shift-click every thor hopefully dropping and killing every thor quickly
void rays shift-clicked kill 1 thor in about 1 second. you kill 8 thors in 10 seconds, normally fast enough to turn the battle into your favor
|
IF he can mass that many Thors you can mass that many Collosi. Collosi with Splash and range will roffle stomp the Thors.
THors have short range and are bulky. Thats why i don;y go Mass Thor l8 game. Not to mention Carriers and Voids
You could also simply out mobilize him and immortal drop all his CCs.
|
On February 11 2011 08:03 darklordjac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 07:58 Jacuzzi wrote:On February 11 2011 07:46 Incarnite wrote:
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a. If you've got the micro to magic box a shit ton of void rays, then by all means go right ahead and go mass VR against mass thors. The splash damage from a shit ton of thors is absolutely ridiculous. Magic boxing really doesn't require that much micro, and don't void rays shoot while moving on top of that?
Magic boxing voids isn't as effective as it would be for, say, mutas because voids move soooooo slow.
En masse, thors will beat voids regardless. The best counter to thors is to meet them with immortals but you need to scout/react at the appropriate time otherwise you'll still get crushed.
|
On February 14 2011 10:45 roymarthyup wrote:
The reason void rays work so well against thors is because NORMALLY thors will be doing their 90 damage ground attack that rapes your zealots and stalkers, but with void rays you force the thor to deal their weaker slower attack to air units. thors actually have priority in attacking air units so with void rays on the field you force the thor to not attack ground letting your zealots and stalkers do work
Interesting, didn't know this.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/139197-1v1-terran-protoss-lost-temple#rd:dna < Me playing terribly the whole game, failing to scout the thor play and still winning due to vortex. Does seem especially powerful against Thors as they must be clumped to be effective; if you ever botch a game completely but still have an economy gogo mothership.
|
Im lost on why magic boxing doesn't work since void rays automatically attack in a 60 degree angle ,while moving. so you aren't losing that much dps assuming you zealot/storm to get rid of marines.
Carriers work on burst dmg vs low armor units and thors have relatively tons of armor, so I'm not seeing that as a counter, unless you mean to distract their AI.
Thus, my advice is storm or collosi to rid of marines and void rays to kill thors. storm also works against vikings, if you can get the templar in range.
|
On February 14 2011 07:45 sleepingdog wrote:
Bumping this because this shit really seems to get popular. Once I have a game where I don't screw up on some point a long the way I'll post a H-thread of my own, but for now I'd just appreciate more reps/strategies that go a bit more in detail.
For now I think the consensus is, that against mass-thors you need to start out with a neat robotics-force (I've seen kiwikaki going with 2 robos straight away for immortals/colossi after scouting this) and then transition into either void rays or carriers - where I'd say carriers should work better because they don't get shut down from vikings that efficiently. Also you probably need the templar tech at some point because otherwise +3 marines will be able to inflict to much damage before they die.
Chargelots won't cut it since every thor-play normally adds blueflame hellions at some point which just roast the front-line which is all that takes to negate the charge-threat.
The real question though is: how to structure your game accordingly. Meaning, as we all have played countless games vs MMM we all know that MMM is more mobile and it's fine for us toss-players to stay defensively. Against thor-play it seems like the roles are completely switched and we have to outexpand and harass while getting the transitions on route properly. So, do you try to do some harassment? (DTs, warpprism). Do you take a much quicker third? Do you maybe even try to double expand zerg-style, meaning two expos at different locations? Do you actively try to engage multiple times keeping the thor-count low?
Just expo and contain. Every factory with techlab is basically another free expansion for Toss because thor/tank is pretty sub-par in this matchup. Get many warpgates and SGates with fleet beacon, you should max out way sooner than the Terran. As soon as he moves out of his natural to take, engage, you will probably dent his army a lot even if you lose almost everything you have. Reinforce with Gateway units and immos, depending on his support and thor numbers chrono out carriers or voids.
If the Terran camps till 200 food thor or some other insane crap, get gateway/robo units till about ~150 food and fill the rest with carriers.
|
just putting this out there, thors are very powerful but vortex / collossi toilets / void rays are also very powerful
i really believe thors are the most powerful endgame option for terran against toss right next to BC's but thors are easier to get and thors actually deal way more DPS to ground than BC's and are cheaper.
but you gotta realize toss also has just as strong endgame options like mothership / vortex+collossi / void rays
because thors are so large, a collossi toilet will have the same effect as an archon toilet. the thors will all get hit by collossi splash after the vortex
|
On February 14 2011 10:36 slothly wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 10:35 badcop wrote:
If its mass thors just go absurd amounts of immortals, you'll win.
If they go emp and thors still go immortals.
This will only work if they go truly mass thors and no other units. Strike cannon + EMP.
You do realize how much flippin gas that takes. Everything has a counter and simply stating that Stike Cannon Ghost beats this then imma tell you Feedback immortal beats you. But still if Terran can make that many Thors, they you can make that many collosi and Rape him by kiting endlessly. If they add banshees or vikings add Phoenix.
Collos is = to Thor in Price, but is faster has splash and higher range. Collosi rape all ground units. Phoenix is > Vikings and Banshees. They also mess with the THor AI who will atk them before The Collosi.
|
thors dont need emp to beat immortals
strike cannon thors have 7 range. thors have 5 range
when thors engage immortals the first two rows of thors will strike cannon the front row of immortals. all the immortals will die
if the immortals try to walk up and get closer and have 2 rows to shoot the thors, the first 3 rows of thors will strike cannon the 2 rows of immortals
a strike cannon takes out a immortal. and thors have 7 range and two attacks they will beat immortals easily
|
[B]On February 14 2011 11:19 GinDo wrote:
You do realize how much flippin gas that takes. Everything has a counter and simply stating that Stike Cannon Ghost beats this then imma tell you Feedback immortal beats you. But still if Terran can make that many Thors, they you can make that many collosi and Rape him by kiting endlessly. If they add banshees or vikings add Phoenix.
Collos is = to Thor in Price, but is faster has splash and higher range. Collosi rape all ground units. Phoenix is > Vikings and Banshees. They also mess with the THor AI who will atk them before The Collosi.
The EMP is really only to bust any immortals that haven't already been gibbed by strike cannon, feedback immortal is raped by thors; and its a perfectly attainable late game composition irrespective of the gas cost.
The fact is that pure collosi is impossible to attain and impossible to replenish when you inevitably loose it as you will not have enough robo bays to respond in good time. The Terran will already have plenty of factories from earlier hellion/tank usage, hence why mass thor is a transitional build.
|
On February 14 2011 11:22 roymarthyup wrote:
thors dont need emp to beat immortals
strike cannon thors have 7 range. thors have 5 range
when thors engage immortals the first two rows of thors will strike cannon the front row of immortals. all the immortals will die
if the immortals try to walk up and get closer and have 2 rows to shoot the thors, the first 3 rows of thors will strike cannon the 2 rows of immortals
a strike cannon takes out a immortal. and thors have 7 range and two attacks they will beat immortals easily
See, this is the problem when statistics are being put out with no real experience behind them. All your numbers are correct but they actually only apply to when armies are very small. As soon as the number of immortals and thors exceed 3 strike cannon is actually useless, it is worse than a moving. The reason is that while you may very well on paper strike cannon all the immortals before they are in range, all the thors will die to gateway units while they are standing still doing their little animation.
Strike cannon is only viable for timing pushes at below 100 supply.
Anyway, here is a hint for protosses to deal with ghostmech, 1) Don't attack, 2) Skip colossus alltogether. 3) Go templar into carrier and play a macro game. 4) Collect win because terran lategame can't bust a passsive protoss when tech tree is fully developed.
|
Okay, I knew he was getting Thors, I was a base up on him, and I still lost...
I had almost only Zealots (w/ legs), Immortals at 3/0 and VRays at 2/1.
His thors were 3/3/0, his Bio was 1/0.
I wasn't slipping on macro. I was a base up on him and already had my 3rd saturated. I got my second earlier.
He pushes and before most of my zealots can reach them they die. EMP takes out all my shields.
I know I could play better (I was a couple of seconds late to actually looking at the battle, but I positioned my Immortals before my Zealots etc.)
Should I be changing my upgrades? It's really frustrating to lose to this.
|
From a Terran perspective, 5+ colossi w range with stalkers and zealots beat Thor marine marauder handily with equal supply, same no of Thors. Thors just can't get close enuff to strike cannon the colossus and their infantry support can't move forward or they will get melted.
I had a few games where i get soundly trashed by protoss with the above. Please post replays where such a Toss composition loses to a Thor build please.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
