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On February 12 2011 00:09 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 00:03 Dommk wrote:On February 12 2011 00:01 Salv wrote:On February 11 2011 23:58 Dommk wrote:On February 11 2011 08:03 darklordjac wrote:On February 11 2011 07:58 Jacuzzi wrote:On February 11 2011 07:46 Incarnite wrote:
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a. If you've got the micro to magic box a shit ton of void rays, then by all means go right ahead and go mass VR against mass thors. The splash damage from a shit ton of thors is absolutely ridiculous. Magic boxing really doesn't require that much micro, and don't void rays shoot while moving on top of that? Voidrays are slow and large units, I dare you to try magic box them over thors, you will lose most of them before you get them overhead . I find voidrays good vs Thors in small numbers, but when it becomes to mass Thors with repair, they just die too fast, and voids tend to clump up easier than mutas due to size, especially when Thors start dieing. I think a good idea is to do a surprise Carrier Voidray Zealot Archon bust, if it fails then Terran will reactor vikings and you will no longer be able to go Carrier/Voidray  , make sure you have 3-3 Zealots and air weapons that is the same as whatever armor upgrade it is for the thor, 0/0 Carriers do 48 less damage to 0/3 Thors :/ Do people like you even try what you're saying before you post? It's incredible easy to magic box void rays, and I actually did the tests and came up the numbers right above your post. Even if you have 0-0-0 VR's against his 3-3 Thors, they will still lose five thors before all your void rays die. That is also with equal numbers, and thors cost more, and cost much more supply - void rays are clearly the counter to thors in small or large numbers. Carriers aren't always a viable option. I'm actually talking about a realistic situation, there are never games were Terran goes mass thor ONLY, there is also Viking/Marine support, getting voids into position can be difficult then, especially if you factor in repair People do go mass thor. Besides the fact that this is what the OP was actually about, watch Artosis' GSL 4 qualifiers, he fell to this same style - a little bit of bio, but mostly mass thors. For every extra unit the Terran has, that's extra units that the Protoss has, so your argument that void rays aren't the answer is wrong. As far as repair goes, it's only useful if there are four to five or more on a single thor. If you're massing thors, what are you going to do, bring along 50+ SCV's? You have storm at this point, no Terran in their right mind would do that.
Have you actually played against Mass thor? I'd love to see anyone getting away with mass Voidray against mass Thor. I HAVE played against Mass thor, and rarely has mass voidrays actually worked. In some cases I have won the fight but the marine/Thor/Viking reinforcement that comes easily deals with your remaining voids. You need something sustainable, like Carriers to range marines/Viking/Thors supported by Immortal/Zealot/Templar/Archon
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I've lost vs mass-thors with marine/banshee-support yesterday....and it was a terrible player, I raged quite a lot because I had like double the bases. Immortals really don't cut it after thors AND marines have reached a critical mark and strike-cannons take out the "front row".
I really feel like carriers is the only safe option for lategame. Going robotics-heavy with immortals/colossi, slowly replacing colossi with templars and then switching over to carriers once the heavy macro and therefore mass-thors kick in. Then something like chargelot/immortal/carrier/high-templar should do the trick.
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On February 12 2011 00:15 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 00:09 Salv wrote:On February 12 2011 00:03 Dommk wrote:On February 12 2011 00:01 Salv wrote:On February 11 2011 23:58 Dommk wrote:On February 11 2011 08:03 darklordjac wrote:On February 11 2011 07:58 Jacuzzi wrote:On February 11 2011 07:46 Incarnite wrote:
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a. If you've got the micro to magic box a shit ton of void rays, then by all means go right ahead and go mass VR against mass thors. The splash damage from a shit ton of thors is absolutely ridiculous. Magic boxing really doesn't require that much micro, and don't void rays shoot while moving on top of that? Voidrays are slow and large units, I dare you to try magic box them over thors, you will lose most of them before you get them overhead . I find voidrays good vs Thors in small numbers, but when it becomes to mass Thors with repair, they just die too fast, and voids tend to clump up easier than mutas due to size, especially when Thors start dieing. I think a good idea is to do a surprise Carrier Voidray Zealot Archon bust, if it fails then Terran will reactor vikings and you will no longer be able to go Carrier/Voidray , make sure you have 3-3 Zealots and air weapons that is the same as whatever armor upgrade it is for the thor, 0/0 Carriers do 48 less damage to 0/3 Thors :/ Do people like you even try what you're saying before you post? It's incredible easy to magic box void rays, and I actually did the tests and came up the numbers right above your post. Even if you have 0-0-0 VR's against his 3-3 Thors, they will still lose five thors before all your void rays die. That is also with equal numbers, and thors cost more, and cost much more supply - void rays are clearly the counter to thors in small or large numbers. Carriers aren't always a viable option. I'm actually talking about a realistic situation, there are never games were Terran goes mass thor ONLY, there is also Viking/Marine support, getting voids into position can be difficult then, especially if you factor in repair People do go mass thor. Besides the fact that this is what the OP was actually about, watch Artosis' GSL 4 qualifiers, he fell to this same style - a little bit of bio, but mostly mass thors. For every extra unit the Terran has, that's extra units that the Protoss has, so your argument that void rays aren't the answer is wrong. As far as repair goes, it's only useful if there are four to five or more on a single thor. If you're massing thors, what are you going to do, bring along 50+ SCV's? You have storm at this point, no Terran in their right mind would do that. Have you actually played against Mass thor? I'd love to see anyone getting away with mass Voidray against mass Thor. I HAVE played against Mass thor, and rarely has mass voidrays actually worked. In some cases I have won the fight but the marine/Thor/Viking reinforcement that comes easily deals with your remaining voids. You need something sustainable, like Carriers to range marines/Viking/Thors supported by Immortal/Zealot/Templar/Archon
Yes I have, however I doubt if you actually have. First of all, you talk about the difficulty in magic boxing void rays, even though the entire point of magic boxing is that you can keep your units in formation with ease. It's not some complex manuever.
Second of all, the counter to mass thors, which the OP was about is VR. I don't know how you can dispute this, look at the numbers I posted. Armor/WPN upgraded VR's beat maxed thors without problem if you magic box. Your entire argument hinges upon the additional units that Terran is going to bring, like mass SCV's to repair, vikings, and marines. Magic vikings cuts into the Terran's thor count. Not only that, but that would be three different unit types to upgrade then: Mech, Bio, an Air.
In a battle scenario, you need to deal with their additional units, I thought this was self-explanatory. You don't just mass void rays against thors no matter what else they have, you get void rays in response to thor, and you deal with their additional units because after that, the thors are no threat to void rays.
The reason why thor/marine is used as the composition is because gas is going into thors and ghosts to EMP. All they have leftover is minerals, so they make marines. Storm takes care of everything the Terran can make except thors, that's why you need to do something different. Carriers are ideal, but not always viable, which is why you need void rays.
Just curious what's your league?
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As i play mech vs Protoss almost every game i have had the thor vs voidray battle a couple of times. I usually happens when i have a solid mech composition (hellion, tank, thor) and begin to gain ground that i miss the protoss building voids/carriers and not adding enough vikings in time.
And i can just tell you that thors vs void rays DOES NOT work. At least not a cost effective or supply effective basis. What you need to realize is that a thor does LESS DPS THAN A STIMMED MARINE vs a voidray (while costing 10 times as much in resources and 6 times as much in supply). So unless you are 1a-ing your voidrays into the thors when they are all bunched up so they take full splash damage, you will win with voidrays vs thors, given about equal cost/supply.
If you take the splash for the thors and complain about it it's like a terran complaining about banelings after he just a-moved his marine ball into a couple banes.
On a different topic: I believe hellion/thor/viking and hellion/thor/bc are actually the strongest possible terran compositions against protoss. Unfortunately, not many protoss let me get there alive
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On February 12 2011 00:24 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 00:15 Dommk wrote:On February 12 2011 00:09 Salv wrote:On February 12 2011 00:03 Dommk wrote:On February 12 2011 00:01 Salv wrote:On February 11 2011 23:58 Dommk wrote:On February 11 2011 08:03 darklordjac wrote:On February 11 2011 07:58 Jacuzzi wrote:On February 11 2011 07:46 Incarnite wrote:
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a. If you've got the micro to magic box a shit ton of void rays, then by all means go right ahead and go mass VR against mass thors. The splash damage from a shit ton of thors is absolutely ridiculous. Magic boxing really doesn't require that much micro, and don't void rays shoot while moving on top of that? Voidrays are slow and large units, I dare you to try magic box them over thors, you will lose most of them before you get them overhead . I find voidrays good vs Thors in small numbers, but when it becomes to mass Thors with repair, they just die too fast, and voids tend to clump up easier than mutas due to size, especially when Thors start dieing. I think a good idea is to do a surprise Carrier Voidray Zealot Archon bust, if it fails then Terran will reactor vikings and you will no longer be able to go Carrier/Voidray , make sure you have 3-3 Zealots and air weapons that is the same as whatever armor upgrade it is for the thor, 0/0 Carriers do 48 less damage to 0/3 Thors :/ Do people like you even try what you're saying before you post? It's incredible easy to magic box void rays, and I actually did the tests and came up the numbers right above your post. Even if you have 0-0-0 VR's against his 3-3 Thors, they will still lose five thors before all your void rays die. That is also with equal numbers, and thors cost more, and cost much more supply - void rays are clearly the counter to thors in small or large numbers. Carriers aren't always a viable option. I'm actually talking about a realistic situation, there are never games were Terran goes mass thor ONLY, there is also Viking/Marine support, getting voids into position can be difficult then, especially if you factor in repair People do go mass thor. Besides the fact that this is what the OP was actually about, watch Artosis' GSL 4 qualifiers, he fell to this same style - a little bit of bio, but mostly mass thors. For every extra unit the Terran has, that's extra units that the Protoss has, so your argument that void rays aren't the answer is wrong. As far as repair goes, it's only useful if there are four to five or more on a single thor. If you're massing thors, what are you going to do, bring along 50+ SCV's? You have storm at this point, no Terran in their right mind would do that. Have you actually played against Mass thor? I'd love to see anyone getting away with mass Voidray against mass Thor. I HAVE played against Mass thor, and rarely has mass voidrays actually worked. In some cases I have won the fight but the marine/Thor/Viking reinforcement that comes easily deals with your remaining voids. You need something sustainable, like Carriers to range marines/Viking/Thors supported by Immortal/Zealot/Templar/Archon Yes I have, however I doubt if you actually have. First of all, you talk about the difficulty in magic boxing void rays, even though the entire point of magic boxing is that you can keep your units in formation with ease. It's not some complex manuever. Second of all, the counter to mass thors, which the OP was about is VR. I don't know how you can dispute this, look at the numbers I posted. Armor/WPN upgraded VR's beat maxed thors without problem if you magic box. Your entire argument hinges upon the additional units that Terran is going to bring, like mass SCV's to repair, vikings, and marines. Magic vikings cuts into the Terran's thor count. Not only that, but that would be three different unit types to upgrade then: Mech, Bio, an Air. In a battle scenario, you need to deal with their additional units, I thought this was self-explanatory. You don't just mass void rays against thors no matter what else they have, you get void rays in response to thor, and you deal with their additional units because after that, the thors are no threat to void rays.The reason why thor/marine is used as the composition is because gas is going into thors and ghosts to EMP. All they have leftover is minerals, so they make marines. Storm takes care of everything the Terran can make except thors, that's why you need to do something different. Carriers are ideal, but not always viable, which is why you need void rays. Just curious what's your league?
2700 Diamond. But anyway, magic boxing thor is much more difficult in an actual game, I cant stress how marines and vikings change everything, your voids are very slow and take a long time to move into position, if you try magic box against Marine/Thor with or without viking, you will lose a lot of Voidrays before even doing damage.
Counter to mass thor was speed rays, not anymore, Voidrays aren't as amazing as they were before, with speedrays you could get into position and maneuver around. You have to actually look beyond the numbers and take the entire game as a whole you can't just nullify marines because apparently you have storms, again, I have yet to see anyone go mass voidray post speedray nerf against mass thor and be successful. If you can, I would LOVE to see a replay of someone doing this in an actual game.
A Carrier transition from a Gasteway/Templar or Colossus/Templar is much more viable, IMO, than going mass Voidrays and has been more successful for me
Voidrays work much better against Thor/Tank, but not Thor/Marine.
Again, I'd love to see a replay of anyone doing mass Voidrays to deal with mass Thor, because i certainly can't get it to work
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Mass thors can be countered by Void/Immortal/Zealot mix. I don't see why people have to counter something with the mass of another unit. I have tried a few things and the mix of voids, immortals and zealots leaves me with a substantial unit advantage at the end.
Really any substantial amount of bio will require a splash damage response. It's up to you to decide.
If they have tanks... well that just made your life easier.
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On February 12 2011 00:33 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 00:24 Salv wrote:On February 12 2011 00:15 Dommk wrote:On February 12 2011 00:09 Salv wrote:On February 12 2011 00:03 Dommk wrote:On February 12 2011 00:01 Salv wrote:On February 11 2011 23:58 Dommk wrote:On February 11 2011 08:03 darklordjac wrote:On February 11 2011 07:58 Jacuzzi wrote:On February 11 2011 07:46 Incarnite wrote:
Jacuzzi, you need to spread out your voids. Thou must not 1a. If you've got the micro to magic box a shit ton of void rays, then by all means go right ahead and go mass VR against mass thors. The splash damage from a shit ton of thors is absolutely ridiculous. Magic boxing really doesn't require that much micro, and don't void rays shoot while moving on top of that? Voidrays are slow and large units, I dare you to try magic box them over thors, you will lose most of them before you get them overhead . I find voidrays good vs Thors in small numbers, but when it becomes to mass Thors with repair, they just die too fast, and voids tend to clump up easier than mutas due to size, especially when Thors start dieing. I think a good idea is to do a surprise Carrier Voidray Zealot Archon bust, if it fails then Terran will reactor vikings and you will no longer be able to go Carrier/Voidray , make sure you have 3-3 Zealots and air weapons that is the same as whatever armor upgrade it is for the thor, 0/0 Carriers do 48 less damage to 0/3 Thors :/ Do people like you even try what you're saying before you post? It's incredible easy to magic box void rays, and I actually did the tests and came up the numbers right above your post. Even if you have 0-0-0 VR's against his 3-3 Thors, they will still lose five thors before all your void rays die. That is also with equal numbers, and thors cost more, and cost much more supply - void rays are clearly the counter to thors in small or large numbers. Carriers aren't always a viable option. I'm actually talking about a realistic situation, there are never games were Terran goes mass thor ONLY, there is also Viking/Marine support, getting voids into position can be difficult then, especially if you factor in repair People do go mass thor. Besides the fact that this is what the OP was actually about, watch Artosis' GSL 4 qualifiers, he fell to this same style - a little bit of bio, but mostly mass thors. For every extra unit the Terran has, that's extra units that the Protoss has, so your argument that void rays aren't the answer is wrong. As far as repair goes, it's only useful if there are four to five or more on a single thor. If you're massing thors, what are you going to do, bring along 50+ SCV's? You have storm at this point, no Terran in their right mind would do that. Have you actually played against Mass thor? I'd love to see anyone getting away with mass Voidray against mass Thor. I HAVE played against Mass thor, and rarely has mass voidrays actually worked. In some cases I have won the fight but the marine/Thor/Viking reinforcement that comes easily deals with your remaining voids. You need something sustainable, like Carriers to range marines/Viking/Thors supported by Immortal/Zealot/Templar/Archon Yes I have, however I doubt if you actually have. First of all, you talk about the difficulty in magic boxing void rays, even though the entire point of magic boxing is that you can keep your units in formation with ease. It's not some complex manuever. Second of all, the counter to mass thors, which the OP was about is VR. I don't know how you can dispute this, look at the numbers I posted. Armor/WPN upgraded VR's beat maxed thors without problem if you magic box. Your entire argument hinges upon the additional units that Terran is going to bring, like mass SCV's to repair, vikings, and marines. Magic vikings cuts into the Terran's thor count. Not only that, but that would be three different unit types to upgrade then: Mech, Bio, an Air. In a battle scenario, you need to deal with their additional units, I thought this was self-explanatory. You don't just mass void rays against thors no matter what else they have, you get void rays in response to thor, and you deal with their additional units because after that, the thors are no threat to void rays.The reason why thor/marine is used as the composition is because gas is going into thors and ghosts to EMP. All they have leftover is minerals, so they make marines. Storm takes care of everything the Terran can make except thors, that's why you need to do something different. Carriers are ideal, but not always viable, which is why you need void rays. Just curious what's your league? 2700 Diamond. But anyway, magic boxing thor is much more difficult in an actual game, I cant stress how marines and vikings change everything, your voids are very slow and take a long time to move into position, if you try magic box against Marine/Thor with or without viking, you will lose a lot of Voidrays before even doing damage. Counter to mass thor was speed rays, not anymore, Voidrays aren't as amazing as they were before, with speedrays you could get into position and maneuver around. You have to actually look beyond the numbers and take the entire game as a whole you can't just nullify marines because apparently you have storms, again, I have yet to see anyone go mass voidray post speedray nerf against mass thor and be successful. If you can, I would LOVE to see a replay of someone doing this in an actual game. A Carrier transition from a Gasteway/Templar or Colossus/Templar is much more viable, IMO, than going mass Voidrays. Voidrays work much better against Thor/Tank, but not Thor/Marine. Again, I'd love to see a replay of anyone doing mass Voidrays to deal with mass Thor, because i certainly can't get it to work
I don't have a replay on hand, but when I do I'll post it. Even so though, I think the tests speak for themselves. Void rays are more effective now than they were before. There damage is more normalized, and they do +20% additional damage to massive units (Thor). I would rather have the void ray of new vs the speedier, but weaker void ray of old.
And yes, I can nullify marines because I have storm. You didn't explain your argument of why I can't. Marines die in a couple seconds to a psi storm. Vikings also die quickly to psi storm. Open unit tester, put in two equal supply armies, give some gateway units, void rays, and some high templar to Protoss, and give Terran at least 10 thors and then whatever else you'd like to even it up. You'll be surprised at the results.
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its very simple, if you let your opponent get to 10 thor your already fucked. ive tested it a million times against a friend and against 10 thors backed up with marines you just dont win. (with a similair cost army)
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Any Videos about magic boxing Voidrays against Thors?
i mean now with Speedupgrade Removed, does this still work properly in game?
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You don't even need to "magic box" voidrays. They don't have such a big tendency to clump up like mutas have simply because of their greater range. Split up the voidrays in a nice arc before the battle and even 1-a moving them will do just fine.
As for the rest of the terran army - just kill them with the rest of your army. Marine die easily to both storm or collossi. Pretty much everything else can be dealt with by chargelots.
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I've faced mass thor before and totally annihilated it. If you're at the point where you have 3 bases, you should be able to sustain multiple stargates pumping carriers. If your opponent is thor heavy, carriers + zealots + HTs is really nasty, because if they're target firing the carriers, they're doing much lower DPS than if they were shooting your zealots.
What about vikings you say? Vikings actually only just break even in cost efficiency versus carriers because both have similar range levels. Viking's can't kite carriers so well because while the interceptor engagement range is 8, they have a chase range out a while further. HTs are used for storm against anything that is actually a threat to the carriers - i.e. vikings and marines. Viking mobs are extremely inefficient versus carriers when they have to storm dodge as well. Zealots just mess stuff up really badly when half his army is confused shooting at interceptors and are an important mineral sink since this composition is very gas heavy. It is also amazingly efficient at destroying anything Terran attempts to use. I would say this particular composition is somewhat weak versus well placed EMPs, because having no templar energy messes you up a bit.
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counter to mass thor is mass immortal.
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On February 12 2011 01:27 whomybuddy wrote:
counter to mass thor is mass immortal.
250mm cannon...
Not to say you shouldn't mix in a few immortals, but mass immortal is by no means good. They are fat, slow, and short-ranged. Thors will usually be accompanied by marines as well.
Voidrays ARE the answer, but not ALONE. You need VOIDS, ZEALOTS and TEMPLAR.
Here's why.
1) Thors are gas heavy, the terran will be dumping minerals into marines. Marines, if unoccupied, will eat voids for lunch. You need to storm them. Zealots will also draw their fire and prevent them from running in.
2) Thors auto-repair thors are annoying. You need to storm them.
3) Thors are big, which makes them reasonably vulnerable to melee units (many can attack at the same time), plus with templar and voids, you WILL need a mineral sink. Zealots 4tw.
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Don't go VRs if you see mass Thors...yes it's suppose to be the "counter" to it but with Thor's splash damage, Thors will overrun VRs as VRs have the tendency to clump together...
Go immortals but if they have strike cannons, go Carriers
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On February 12 2011 01:27 whomybuddy wrote:
counter to mass thor is mass immortal.
Gee thanks, Buddy. I appreciate your comprehensive approach to solving the issue at hand.
I think one of my problems with teching up to carriers is when I see the huge ball of Thors, I start just trying to produce as many units as I possibly can to fend them off if they come at me. I'll have to try the HT/Carrier approach though and see if that can possibly work. In my last game against Thor/Tank I only had one stargate producing Voids, so I think I would have been better off with 2 Stargates to get that critical mass, as I only had about 5-6 voids attacking into his 12 Thors in addition to a bunch of speedlots.
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Could we have a good Protoss talking clearly about how to react against a camping Terran going like 14 thors + 4-6 tanks, assuming you have a real macro advantage (1 or 2 more expos).
Because someone say something, then another one come to tell the opposite. This is an interesting thread so if you are Protoss, write your rank/division and your solution to this problem.
Thanks
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On February 12 2011 02:59 parn wrote:
Could we have a good Protoss talking clearly about how to react against a camping Terran going like 14 thors + 4-6 tanks, assuming you have a real macro advantage (1 or 2 more expos).
Because someone say something, then another one come to tell the opposite. This is an interesting thread so if you are Protoss, write your rank/division and your solution to this problem.
Thanks
Granted, i'm not a protoss but what would kill me if i attempted this: The toss grabbing a quick third and going mass carrier ...
By the time i'd have 14 thors he'd have a fleet of carriers and a mothership. Carriers are really hard to counter as terran, vikings only work so-so. The only thing that terrans have that really counters carriers are BCs with yamato - which he won't have if all his gas is in thors ...
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On February 12 2011 03:03 Lurk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 02:59 parn wrote:
Could we have a good Protoss talking clearly about how to react against a camping Terran going like 14 thors + 4-6 tanks, assuming you have a real macro advantage (1 or 2 more expos).
Because someone say something, then another one come to tell the opposite. This is an interesting thread so if you are Protoss, write your rank/division and your solution to this problem.
Thanks Granted, i'm not a protoss but what would kill me if i attempted this: The toss grabbing a quick third and going mass carrier ... By the time i'd have 14 thors he'd have a fleet of carriers and a mothership. Carriers are really hard to counter as terran, vikings only work so-so. The only thing that terrans have that really counters carriers are BCs with yamato - which he won't have if all his gas is in thors ...
Yep Terran comments are also welcome, ty.
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Void rays may be a counter to thors, but they are weak against marines and vikings. Carriers on the other hand are just as good against thors, but have no real weakness. Why go void rays when you can go carriers?
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On February 12 2011 00:20 sleepingdog wrote:
I really feel like carriers is the only safe option for lategame. Going robotics-heavy with immortals/colossi, slowly replacing colossi with templars and then switching over to carriers once the heavy macro and therefore mass-thors kick in. Then something like chargelot/immortal/carrier/high-templar should do the trick.
This is correct, except I'd skip the templars and jump straight to carriers from a robo-heavy early-mid game. Templar is going to be useless against mech play and are only good to counter vikings and marines which terran won't get until after you have carriers.
So early game you would want dual robo immortal/colossi with some gateway support, once you realize that terran is just turtling to 200/200 you need additional expansions and go straight for carrier. End game you basically just want as many carriers as possible. Forget about immortals, any leftover supply just fill up with chargelot/HT.
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EPT
