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This thread was renamed from "Becomming a mech terran" |
On January 29 2011 18:10 ledarsi wrote:
The issue as I see it is that EVERY game where a terran goes mech depends on a huge pickup where hellion harass kills dozens of probes. If that doesn't happen, terran is done. Mech isn't competitive unless you're already in a position of advantage. Siege tanks will simply get straight up beaten, as will thors. Now, if you do get such an advantage such as by good hellion harass, and you do manage to get your mech army up, it is highly survivable. You can win battles with few casualties and snowball the game in your favor.
So mech isn't useless. But it is definitely not a cost-competitive composition the way infantry is. Siege tanks and thors are strong, but for cost, for supply, and for all the strategic weaknesses such as immobility and weaknesses to air units, the factory's unit suite is just not as good as the barracks'.
Not necessarily, the threat of hellions running around should be enough to keep the protoss at bay until he's pretty sure he wants to try and bust you.
The hellions are part of the strategy. That's like saying bio is only good because of the medivacs doing drops and healing everything...
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On January 29 2011 11:33 Autunno wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2011 09:14 bole wrote:
Hey m8 who play terran try to use SIEGE TANKS + HELLIONS agenst protoss and also afective agenst zerg... Mass up siege tanks and mass hellions...(mass meens 10 and more) you will devestate protoss or zerg (zerglings and beinglings) try this mecha strategy ... alos agenst zerg try build some thors as well (zerg can go on mutas.)
one more thing be cerfull if toss go air.... that is only cance to win agenst seige + hellions...but try this strategy its great... Actually if you go mainly siege tank + hellion you may be a little vunerable for mass blink stalkers, but I guess that b. stalkers are so rearely used against terran that it`s not much of a threat.
This post is infactual. Where is your reasoning or evidence or replays?
There is some merit, where if the protoss has a much better economy and can afford to send in "stalker bombs" blinking into your siege ball, or if he for some reason was able to destroy a chunk of your tanks and you aren't able to blow the stalkers all away before they can blink in and kill all your crap.
Why would blink stalkers be bad vs a strongly macrod tank/hellions force?
First of all, tanks destroy stalkers very easily, second of all, when they blink in they get automatically balled together. Guess what? Tanks and hellions both do very nice area of effect damage. You might do some cute damage from the tanks hitting each other, but your entire army is going to die very fast as well.
If you're interested in having tanks work against the terran, do zealot warp prism drops (in the tank line so they shoot each other, or in the mineral line so the tanks kill SCVS)
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On January 28 2011 08:30 TheWarbler wrote:
Going flew blown mech of tank hellion thor vikings is ridiculously GAS HEAVY. So you need biological units you really do. If we had Goliaths instead of like thors it would be so much better. I would trade Thor's for Goliath's anyday but I don't want to put this in a sc2 vs bw discussion.
In starcraft 2 goliaths are created from the barracks and cost 50 minerals. You can also make them from the starport but they cost 150/75. They also don't require an armory any more. Pretty sweet buff hmm?
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QQMonster: I agree the hellions are part of the strategy. However any strategy where you depend on a single lucky event is a weak strategy, no matter how much it works right now.
Against good players you will not get to sneak 5 blue flame hellions into his worker line and roast 20+ probes. There are tons of replays out there of mech terrans killing far more than that even with their hellion harass.
Even in the Jinro vs MC game on Lost Temple, + Show Spoiler +Jinro cleaned out MC's natural wholesale, and his massive tank line with bunkered marines crumpled almost completely when MC assaulted it.
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On January 29 2011 01:50 emidanRKO wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2011 01:47 Sapphire.lux wrote:Liked your game on shakuras. You can build more turrets around your bases with the excess minerals to stop possible void rays/ warp prism back stabs. Yea, some games I've gotten so much excess minerals that I just throw down more barracks but I've started thinking that more turrets and planetary fortresses all over the place would be much better. If i scout a lot of void rays, I just pop down like 2-3 more starports once I'm on 3-4 bases.
You could try making more reactor factories and slamming out hellions like crazy. Once' it's lategame you could have like 3 dropships as well as hellions doing runby's constantly.
Making strategically placed planetary's + turret lines cross map while meching is hilariously good. You just plant them down and put a siege line behind them and then the toss army auto targets the 1500 health building while getting BLOWN APART.
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On January 29 2011 19:32 Vezex wrote:
I've been going mech in tvz, but I'm basicly forced to 2 base allin.There is no getting a 3rd against a good zerg that is going to pick me apart with counter attacks.
Also because I am so dependent on getting critical mass, I can't effectively harass outside of early game with hellions
He gets 4 bases up and running then holds down his R key and wins once his t3 is out.
Or i roll over him and win easily/
I want mech to work, but counter attacking is so strong in this game and mech doesn't handle that well.
You're doing it wrong.
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On January 29 2011 18:39 ledarsi wrote:QQMonster: I agree the hellions are part of the strategy. However any strategy where you depend on a single lucky event is a weak strategy, no matter how much it works right now. Against good players you will not get to sneak 5 blue flame hellions into his worker line and roast 20+ probes. There are tons of replays out there of mech terrans killing far more than that even with their hellion harass. Even in the Jinro vs MC game on Lost Temple, + Show Spoiler +Jinro cleaned out MC's natural wholesale, and his massive tank line with bunkered marines crumpled almost completely when MC assaulted it.
Be careful not to confuse what looks like a lucky event with a well timed, well orchestrated, well planned tactic.
The fact that top GSL korean progamers are losing games to blue flame hellions should be evidence enough that they have a very strong place in the matchup.
Perhaps they are even *gasp* imbalanced? I think as this game develops you will hear people scream for nerfs to the blue flame upgrade. They are just such potent units.
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On January 29 2011 17:59 QQmonster wrote:
i love how avilo had this internal crisis where his mech playstyle wasnt good and then just abandoned mech altogether, and then after the jinro games was like okay maybe mech is still good after all.
and to the other guy saying top terrans dont use mech in top tournaments... jinro isn't a top terran and GSL isn't a top tournament I suppose.
Seriously, jinro needs to learn2 plai and make more MMM amirite?
The key to mech is running around with hellions all game while building up tank numbers and expanding a lot. it's easy to force protoss into a defensive position all game, and then by the time they can attack they are walking into a wall of tanks + vikings.
For any protoss users struggling with beating mech, here's an idea.
This is a very specific situation, but if you open up with quick void rays (preferably 2 rax or 3 rax stargate) you !FORCE! the meching terran to get a fast starport for vikings.
Now, any good terran will be able to defend your initial attack, BUT this is not where you win the game.
You win the game because he doesn't know if you're still making void rays or not, and has to constantly make vikings to be safe. This cut's into factory production CONSIDERABLY this early on in the game.
This means, you could make 2 void rays then just expand, and the terran will be contained spamming vikings. By the time he has a ground army to move out to his natural (depending on the map, obviously) you will be close to taking your third, or just massing up on whatever cheesy 2 base natural busting unit combo you feel like.
So in essence, an early seemingly all in stargate build is actually quite economic vs mech, as you end up getting your expansion up and running long before the terran, even though he builds it and has the OC sitting in his base for like 3 minutes. You'd at least end up even.
I haven't seen the jinro games. Every 2 weeks to a month I switch styles up between bio/mech to learn new things/refine things. Plus, sometimes, bio seems weak as hell, other times mech seems weak as hell, then other times it's the opposite and one or the other feels extremely strong.
It's good to learn both imo. Especially, cause some P suck against bio, other P suck against mech.
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I actually agree- I even play terran, I think that blue flame hellions are somewhat imbalanced. However, they are currently the only thing propping up mech and making it even remotely playable. If you nerf those hellions, you'd better buff those damn tanks. Significantly. Anyway, regarding your original point, I agree there are timing windows when hellion harass is going to be most effective, and good players hit them exactly. However it's somewhat ridiculous to say "OK, then you hellion harass, and you must kill at least 20 probes to be competitive with this mech build".... Really, if that's how it is you should be going marauder like everyone else, and just get some vikings to handle the colossi, or ghosts for high templar.
In a perfect world we would see a subtle bio nerf and some subtle but significant mech buffs. Marines and marauders just put tanks, and even thors, to shame.
Regarding bio, though, the correct response is to stiffen the counters not to nerf their effectiveness generally. Very subtly, such as making banelings' upgrades +2 (+3 light) instead of +2 (+2 light) so weapons 2 banelings kill unupgraded marines in 1 shot instead of 2, making combat shield very significant (without it even armor 3 marines die to weapons 3 banelings in 1 shot). Colossi and psi storm need no assistance. Maybe a very subtle marauder nerf.
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i think your underestimating the thor, in large number(8-10) they can take down even void ray easily, due to AOE damage, i think they are also good against carrier, this without considering that they benefit from ground upgrades, where viking not... and the final object should be Tank and Thor; T&T!
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On January 29 2011 20:10 ledarsi wrote:
I actually agree- I even play terran, I think that blue flame hellions are somewhat imbalanced. However, they are currently the only thing propping up mech and making it even remotely playable. If you nerf those hellions, you'd better buff those damn tanks. Significantly. Anyway, regarding your original point, I agree there are timing windows when hellion harass is going to be most effective, and good players hit them exactly. However it's somewhat ridiculous to say "OK, then you hellion harass, and you must kill at least 20 probes to be competitive with this mech build".... Really, if that's how it is you should be going marauder like everyone else, and just get some vikings to handle the colossi, or ghosts for high templar.
In a perfect world we would see a subtle bio nerf and some subtle but significant mech buffs. Marines and marauders just put tanks, and even thors, to shame.
Regarding bio, though, the correct response is to stiffen the counters not to nerf their effectiveness generally. Very subtly, such as making banelings' upgrades +2 (+3 light) instead of +2 (+2 light) so weapons 2 banelings kill unupgraded marines in 1 shot instead of 2, making combat shield very significant (without it even armor 3 marines die to weapons 3 banelings in 1 shot). Colossi and psi storm need no assistance. Maybe a very subtle marauder nerf.
You really don't need to kill 20 probes. I mean, lets face it, you're bound to kill at least some probes it would unrealistic to say that no probes will die in a game that blue flame hellions are running around. Even assuming you don't, the main role of the hellions is to keep the toss army away from your base as you macro up a death ball, and to give you army composition information. That death ball is going to be a death ball no matter how many probes you kill.
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On January 29 2011 20:26 Garmer wrote:
i think your underestimating the thor, in large number(8-10) they can take down even void ray easily, due to AOE damage, i think they are also good against carrier, this without considering that they benefit from ground upgrades, where viking not... and the final object should be Tank and Thor; T&T!
vikings take up less food, can be produced faster, cost less, and are more mobile than thors which allows them to chase down the carriers.
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@QQmonster Have you ever seen a protoss end game army come up vs a GOOD mech terran army consisting of Tanks,Ghosts and if they have collosui or phenoixs Vikings. The Ball of what protoss is getting obliterated unless they cetch the mech terran in a terrible position but then again he wouldn't be very good would he. I think you should check out the last protoss game under TvP. it is very nice. I do agree that blueflame hellions can be used more as a mineral dump.
You have also said that warp prisim can really hurt mech. But with mech you gain giant extra minerals so you dumb that into turents. Also dont forget your +2 armor upgrade for buildings it really helps. Also a good mech would be able to get a sensor tower down Stops any drop and you can see where the enemy is moving.
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On January 28 2011 02:31 Boundless wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 09:31 Autunno wrote:On January 27 2011 09:24 Boundless wrote:On January 27 2011 09:10 GrassEater wrote:
I am starting a stream where i will make only immortals and voidrays. Do you want to play some games? This post made me lol. In all seriousness though, it's good to see at least some people willing to try mech. It's not for me because of my BW background with zerg, but I want to see it evolve in the metagame at least. Then we can get some bio/mech fake openings like oov was pulling off left and right back in the good old days..... I for one have been playing a lot of mech lately, only going for bio when I feel that the oponent made too many mistakes at the beginning, so I can finish him off fast. But I don`t think that evolve is the right word for it. This style of play simply does not suit most players, either for the units being too slow or for being much harder to execute properly, as it requires macroing skills AND smooth transitions so that you don`t die to timming atacks. And yeah, I`m looking forward to see some of your replays. No, it's definitely the right word. Right now the TvP and TvZ metagame has pretty much reduced to MMM and marine medivac tank, respectively. Sure, people try to mech on the ladder, but the world's top players simply don't do it. The metagame for T right now has really stagnated, and I've been saying this for quite a while. I see threads all over the place like MrBitter's Zerg tutorials, the gosucoaching podcasts where they talk almost exclusively about zerg play, and other things that point to the zerg metagame evolving and updating itself to deal with the latest things that P and T are throwing around. For crying out loud, after MKP made it to the gsl finals on pure cheese and 2rax, the top foreign and Korean zergs spent entire days finding the optimum response to it..... Together. I don't see any T conferences on how to play against phoenix/colossus or good timings to hit against a fast zerg third with early baneling speed. Every T thread on TL that I see (with the exception of this one) is full of whiners that moan about P lategame and mutas being overpowered. Ridiculous stuff. The metagame needs to go somewhere, or we'll be seeing 2rax scv allins forever. I dont think we want that, do we?
I'm getting more and more frustrated by posters like you and it's getting harder and harder not to pop a vain.
Exhibit 1: Jinro is one of the world's top players and he went Mech TvP and TvT in the RO8 and RO4 of GSL, the most prestigious and competetive SC2 tournament to date. Stating that the Terran and Protoss "metagame" had stagnated is just bullshit. There's plenty of people developing new strategies for all the races, you're just seeing the Zerg ones because you're probably a Zerg player yourself.
Saying that the "zerg metagame" is "evolving and updating itself to deal with the latest things that P and T are throwing around" is just a pure contradictory sentence which probably stems from your misunderstanding of the word "metagame".
Exhibit 2: Getting tired of the people saying MarineKingPrime is only succesful because of cheese and 2 Rax. It just proves you have no insight in how to play Terran and that you're most likely biased as a Zerg player. Everyone with 2 eyes and a brain can tell he's an incredibly talented player and that he doesn't deserve the crap he gets because you don't like his playstyle and the fact that he's Terran.
Exhibit 3: "I don't see any T conferences on how to play against phoenix/colossus or good timings to hit against a fast zerg third with early baneling speed."
Again, you're possibly missing these because you're a Zerg yourself and as such have no interest in searching for them. There's been plenty of discussion amongst Terrans on TL about how to deal with Phoenix/ Colossi, for instance:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=183807¤tpage=4
The second part of your sentence is just your misunderstanding of the TvZ matchup as it's the Zerg that plays passive and responsive, not the Terran. The whole idea of heavy rax play is that you don't get to take an easy expo, let alone a quick third.
Exhibit 4: "Every T thread on TL that I see (with the exception of this one) is full of whiners that moan about P lategame and mutas being overpowered. Ridiculous stuff."
Lol, wow. It's funny that you come into a constructive thread to whine about Terran players whining, it almost seems like ... you're the one whining? Your first post in this thread and you've already whined about the Terran metagame not evolving enough for your liking, MarineKingPrime beeing a cheesy skilless 2-Rax'er, Terrans not discussing enough strategies, not playing enough mech (even though they're having succes playing bio) and finally whining about Terran whining too much even though you've found no Terran whining in this thread. I can't help to find your statements ironic.
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The problem as I see it is the incredible number of probe kills that you frequently see in mech terran games, and then it's still a struggle for the terran to win using tanks even after getting such an enormous advantage. Seriously if you got anything like that many probe kills while going bio the game would be over almost immediately.
The single best example of this play that we have is the Jinro vs MC game on Lost Temple
+ Show Spoiler +Jinro, typical for blue flame hellion harass, drops 4 and kills a TON of probes. Then Protoss later counterpushes into his tank line when down by double digit probes and maybe 30 supply, and does FINE? True, MC's forces were totally annihilated. However he pushed Jinro back into his natural, with only 4 tanks surviving, and if you look at the supply counts, during the battle MC actually CLOSED THE SUPPLY GAP while pushing into a massive tank line. Something is amiss. Possibly a mistake in Jinro's play specific to that game, such as his marines weren't in the bunkers he made in front of his tanks, but still. MC should have been simply flattened by Jinro's titanic tank army.
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On January 29 2011 23:23 ledarsi wrote:The problem as I see it is the incredible number of probe kills that you frequently see in mech terran games, and then it's still a struggle for the terran to win using tanks even after getting such an enormous advantage. Seriously if you got anything like that many probe kills while going bio the game would be over almost immediately. The single best example of this play that we have is the Jinro vs MC game on Lost Temple + Show Spoiler +Jinro, typical for blue flame hellion harass, drops 4 and kills a TON of probes. Then Protoss later counterpushes into his tank line when down by double digit probes and maybe 30 supply, and does FINE? True, MC's forces were totally annihilated. However he pushed Jinro back into his natural, with only 4 tanks surviving, and if you look at the supply counts, during the battle MC actually CLOSED THE SUPPLY GAP while pushing into a massive tank line. Something is amiss. Possibly a mistake in Jinro's play specific to that game, such as his marines weren't in the bunkers he made in front of his tanks, but still. MC should have been simply flattened by Jinro's titanic tank army.
This guy hits the nail on the head. I saw protosses fucking it up so badly, but 2 minutes later they walked over the mech army.
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To me true gameplay is abouth Mecha unites from terrans...blizzard can balace game areound mecha unites and araound bio ball (to me bio ball isnt terran gameplay and its OP)..that is my opinion...
Now try hellions(they are great for harasment) + siege tanks +(sensor towers) ...they destroy protoss...also good agenst benglings zerglings (eaven bether then marines)
Only problem that i find out with seige tanks + helion mech strategy is agenst air unites...but you need to scan then and ofc if you see he go air you go anti air... (thors or svich to starport) and some marines for suport..
in this unite composition hellions and siege tanks you can ofc add some thors and litle groups of marines... but main army is hellions (12+) and siege tanks (+ sensor towers on map ) ..
try it it is great strategy ( pro ppl have problem as terran agenst zealots and imortalls but MASS HELLIONS DESTROY EM like nothing..) i see that terran bulld thors with 250 mm canons but zealots overun tham beffore they use them on imortalls...so hellions (with upgread of 24dps) devestate zealots and imortall shilds..
thx try this
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Just played around 5 games vs protoss in which i went bio and got flattened late game and everysingle one suggested that i try out mech as its "super good". After discussion more about what protoss does that counter mech every single one concluded its either attempt mech in a late game environment and possibly win or all in before they get storm or collossi.
Is it just me or does it seem quite depressing that protoss late game seems so dominant that even protoss dont know what beats them aside from not letting them get to the late game.
I am hoping to try and find a way of getting to mech safely while staying competative in a game, though it just seems like there is too much going against mech for it to work :S
Some low masters replays incoming after i work out a way of making mech work... hopefully ^^ any suggestions?
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EPT
