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This thread was renamed from "Becomming a mech terran" |
Hello, I have recently switched to terran and will be posting replays in this thread just about playing mech on ladder. It is solely meant for fun and learning. I will also have a stream if you want to watch me live.
Current Rating as of Post - 1921 Diamond
http://www.xfire.com/live_video/thewarbler/
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +
[/spoiler]
I posted this separate from the stream post because This will also feature replays and discussion about meching as terran. Also making a replay section in this thread with all the spoilers to organize it is a bitch.
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Are you going to mech in every match up?
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You should change your name to MechKingPrime 
Btw the stream is really choppy
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Yes i am new at streaming I am just using procaster I really dont know what I am doing.
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I am starting a stream where i will make only immortals and voidrays. Do you want to play some games?
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On January 27 2011 09:10 GrassEater wrote:
I am starting a stream where i will make only immortals and voidrays. Do you want to play some games?
This post made me lol.
In all seriousness though, it's good to see at least some people willing to try mech.
It's not for me because of my BW background with zerg, but I want to see it evolve in the metagame at least. Then we can get some bio/mech fake openings like oov was pulling off left and right back in the good old days.....
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On January 27 2011 09:24 Boundless wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 09:10 GrassEater wrote:
I am starting a stream where i will make only immortals and voidrays. Do you want to play some games? This post made me lol. In all seriousness though, it's good to see at least some people willing to try mech. It's not for me because of my BW background with zerg, but I want to see it evolve in the metagame at least. Then we can get some bio/mech fake openings like oov was pulling off left and right back in the good old days.....
I for one have been playing a lot of mech lately, only going for bio when I feel that the oponent made too many mistakes at the beginning, so I can finish him off fast.
But I don`t think that evolve is the right word for it. This style of play simply does not suit most players, either for the units being too slow or for being much harder to execute properly, as it requires macroing skills AND smooth transitions so that you don`t die to timming atacks.
And yeah, I`m looking forward to see some of your replays.
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Looking forward to the replays. I've been playing a lot of mech lately and have been looking forward to seeing how others do it.
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Updated with replays. Enjoy
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Watched your stream, nice job killing the zerg with hellions, but you seem to get steamrolled by toss...
A few tips if you dont mind
You are using way too much of your OC energy on Orbitalsupply.
Against toss, you would want more thor heavy composition since they shred practically any unit toss has in their arsenal(immortals too, so they cant kill your tanks).
Take a longer route if you dont want to get caught in a bad position (the TvP match on Meta)
Once you are starting to get maxed, make loads of production facilities(since your playing mech, make like 10 more factories or so)
Spend your excess minerals on extra CC or OC, if possible just make PFs in every possible location 
Also a nice tip for your BO: If you make an extractor(gas on 12/13) before making a barracks, you will have enough gas to immideatly start building a factory as soon as the barracks finishes building.
GL with your future matches, mech play seems very solid imo!
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GL HF man, watch out for the zealots
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On January 27 2011 09:31 Autunno wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 09:24 Boundless wrote:On January 27 2011 09:10 GrassEater wrote:
I am starting a stream where i will make only immortals and voidrays. Do you want to play some games? This post made me lol. In all seriousness though, it's good to see at least some people willing to try mech. It's not for me because of my BW background with zerg, but I want to see it evolve in the metagame at least. Then we can get some bio/mech fake openings like oov was pulling off left and right back in the good old days..... I for one have been playing a lot of mech lately, only going for bio when I feel that the oponent made too many mistakes at the beginning, so I can finish him off fast. But I don`t think that evolve is the right word for it. This style of play simply does not suit most players, either for the units being too slow or for being much harder to execute properly, as it requires macroing skills AND smooth transitions so that you don`t die to timming atacks. And yeah, I`m looking forward to see some of your replays.
No, it's definitely the right word. Right now the TvP and TvZ metagame has pretty much reduced to MMM and marine medivac tank, respectively. Sure, people try to mech on the ladder, but the world's top players simply don't do it.
The metagame for T right now has really stagnated, and I've been saying this for quite a while. I see threads all over the place like MrBitter's Zerg tutorials, the gosucoaching podcasts where they talk almost exclusively about zerg play, and other things that point to the zerg metagame evolving and updating itself to deal with the latest things that P and T are throwing around.
For crying out loud, after MKP made it to the gsl finals on pure cheese and 2rax, the top foreign and Korean zergs spent entire days finding the optimum response to it..... Together. I don't see any T conferences on how to play against phoenix/colossus or good timings to hit against a fast zerg third with early baneling speed.
Every T thread on TL that I see (with the exception of this one) is full of whiners that moan about P lategame and mutas being overpowered. Ridiculous stuff.
The metagame needs to go somewhere, or we'll be seeing 2rax scv allins forever. I dont think we want that, do we?
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On January 27 2011 08:08 justindab0mb wrote:You should change your name to MechKingPrime Btw the stream is really choppy
awesome name lolz ^^
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lol. I would if I was a fan of prime but EG is my team :D
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About to start streaming. !
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I enjoyed watching your stream! That last game against the toss where you moved out and he caught you was ugly  .Totally digging the Mech play though keep it up!
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I could never go full mech, gotta be mobile with my failed MKP impersonation of Bioball and medivacs and get rolled by banes.
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Good luck man. I try to mech as often as I can but it's sufficiently frustrating against Protoss to make me question it.
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How can you punish a playher taking all bases on all map? Helliosn cant kill cannons.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
You can still kill a lot of probes before the Hellions die. The problem with opening with mech is that you are pretty vulnerable to early attacks. I do believe that the only solution to late game tvp is mech though. The only question is, how do you transition safely to it in mid/late game.
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On January 28 2011 03:11 Ponyo wrote:
I could never go full mech, gotta be mobile with my failed MKP impersonation of Bioball and medivacs and get rolled by banes.
Living the dream =P
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Wow. I'm a mech Terran too. I thought I was the only one .
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On January 28 2011 03:47 infinity21 wrote:
You can still kill a lot of probes before the Hellions die. The problem with opening with mech is that you are pretty vulnerable to early attacks. I do believe that the only solution to late game tvp is mech though. The only question is, how do you transition safely to it in mid/late game.
What I've been thinking (but not really doing) is slowly suiciding 5-10 marines at a time and replacing those with tanks and thors. With mech you can't really suicide your whole army and instantly remax like Zerg does.
However, I still don't really think your tank count can get high enough that way to deal with a maxed protoss army, which everyone knows is amazingly strong.
Maybe some kind of tank/thor/ghost/banshee/raven army. PDD's, EMP's, 250mm cannon.... That's a lot of gas though, you'll need at least 6-8 geysers to support that.
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I have a easy time with a protoss army USUALLY. If its like end game 200/200 I can most of the time roll it. I have a really weird compostion. Maruder/Ghost/ALOT OF TANKS/ Vikings and turrents to see dts.
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On January 28 2011 02:45 Sc2Atom wrote:I enjoyed watching your stream! That last game against the toss where you moved out and he caught you was ugly .Totally digging the Mech play though keep it up!
wasn't me! GG's warb I like the mech style tho so def keep fine tuning this with me!
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Updated replays section with protoss and zerg replays. ENJOY
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United States7483 Posts
No, it's definitely the right word. Right now the TvP and TvZ metagame has pretty much reduced to MMM and marine medivac tank, respectively. Sure, people try to mech on the ladder, but the world's top players simply don't do it.
Tell that to Jinro.
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On January 28 2011 05:11 Whitewing wrote
Tell that to Jinro.
YES! Sort of who I designed my opening after.
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On January 28 2011 03:25 Hider wrote:
How can you punish a playher taking all bases on all map? Helliosn cant kill cannons.
You take all the other bases on the map. Don't let him get a good contain on you.
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Hey man just saw your last TvZ and i have some advice: If you dont scout an expansion cut marines to make a tech lab. Swap the factory and rax.
Make a bunker and a siege tank with siege mode.bring scvs to repair.
Take your expansion and prepare a marine/marauder/tank push.
Or since your trying pure mech make a thor/banshee/tank push.
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I find it hard to deal with the standard 6:30 and 8 minute protoss timing pushes if you got mech, and these seem to be the popular builds on the ladder.
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Thanks for the advice on TvZ those roach all-ins kill!
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On January 28 2011 06:49 murkk wrote:
I find it hard to deal with the standard 6:30 and 8 minute protoss timing pushes if you got mech, and these see to be the popular builds on the ladder.
I was having the same problem. I open 2 Rax so I can have enough marines and 1 Tank by the time 4 gate hits. Then I move to more Mech Heavy
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TvP wise i open 12rax 13 extractor. Reactor on barracks get 100 as to build fact then pull scvs off gas to get a CC next
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On January 28 2011 03:47 infinity21 wrote:
You can still kill a lot of probes before the Hellions die. The problem with opening with mech is that you are pretty vulnerable to early attacks. I do believe that the only solution to late game tvp is mech though. The only question is, how do you transition safely to it in mid/late game.
u can build first some marine and then make the transition to mech, i have a build that is a transition from marine tank to fullmech, and it's work
Bo:
10(and start the 11 scv) make supply
12 rax
13(and start the 14 scv) make second rax
15 make OC
18-20 make two rafinery(if u make them at 18 stop marine production for a sec)
(never stop scv for marines stop production at 12, they are enough to deal with rushers, if u want make one bunker too)
make two factory when u reached 200 gas
when factory are completed make 2 tech lab and two tank(than start OC you are about at 7:00 minute)
make other 2 tank
then make other two fact(pump some hellion from them) with your first 200 gas, and establish your OC
from here you can make full mech...
don't forget to take 2exp at 15 max(13-14 is better)
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I watched 2-3 matches of yours today when you streamed. I must admit I expected something much different. I play both zerg/terran about 50/50 now adays and I hate tanks, being on either end. I've never liked that style of play. When you said you were a mech terran, I was hoping for a mainly tank/thor/helion build with a dash vikings or bio added in to deal with air. Unfrotunently in these games all you did was pump tank viking all game. I can't watch your replays cause of my location atm but is that how you play all the matches. I feel like the protoss could have just gone phoenix/chargelot to beaten you easily, (mass tank pick up is devistating to tank lines).
While can anyone think of a decent build to go mara/hel/thor/vik combo. I want to defeat ling/muta without going tank marine but not losing to mass roach switch. I feel with good viking micro 10 vikings or so could keep muta's at bay, stab retreat to thors since they clump up when fighting vikings. I've tried a few builds but I have trouble at the begining of getting units to stop rushesroach/banelings rushes without getting the tanks or heavy bio at start and I'm not to interested in doing 2 rax scv push into expo or anything liek that, note I want the build to transition into 2v2/3v3 player play hence cheesy openings like that are pointless.
Anyways let me know if you do anything other than tank viking against toss or zerg.
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I was having the same problem. I open 2 Rax so I can have enough marines and 1 Tank by the time 4 gate hits. Then I move to more Mech Heavy
Going two rax and putting a bunker down while making your factory works well against the timing push, but really isn't a mech play IMHO. Instead of putting factory down, it's almost always better to just spend that gas on stim upgrade and get another rax.
I think this is really where I just go BLAH with mech - you just have so much more shit with 3 rax by the 8 minute mark. So you start doing your mech build thinking great things, and then to survive you end up with a bio build that you will later transition into a mech build. And then you realize you're just doing the standard marine / tank / viking build.
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Well I got a major amount of vikings those games were cause i needed them. Tanks can handle ground quite easily. People say thors are good in TvP but I think just having more tanks is better. I do need to include hellions into my build I know that one.
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Going flew blown mech of tank hellion thor vikings is ridiculously GAS HEAVY. So you need biological units you really do. If we had Goliaths instead of like thors it would be so much better. I would trade Thor's for Goliath's anyday but I don't want to put this in a sc2 vs bw discussion.
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On January 28 2011 08:30 TheWarbler wrote:
Going flew blown mech of tank hellion thor vikings is ridiculously GAS HEAVY. So you need biological units you really do. If we had Goliaths instead of like thors it would be so much better. I would trade Thor's for Goliath's anyday but I don't want to put this in a sc2 vs bw discussion.
Yep, you need early gas and early expand to pull of true mech build.
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Then it is to hard to stay alive. I have done 16 CC builds but it is very hard to stay alive before the 9min mark when you can really get ur T2.5 in action
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Streaming right now come enjoy if you like !
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I'm glad more people are meching again. After I re-learned bio+viking TvP, the last 2 weeks I decided to bite the bullet and re-learn the mech style that I wrote a guide for ages ago, but more brood war style with a heavier emphasis on hellions, and it's working pretty damn well so far.
In beta, I mostly did mass tank with a few hellions every now and then, and vikings. But that was when tanks did their brood war damage so you could play brood war mass tank style and max out with almost all tanks + some vikings for air + ghosts.
Now though, a heavier hellion mech vs P definitely is viable. Lots of tanks + hellions, with reactored vikings for collosus/voids, and as the game goes on, adding in ghosts.
You do need marines for the entire early game, either off of a reactored barracks or 2 rax, but you eventually stop producing them for lots of hellions, or you can decide to keep constantly producing them off of a reactored barracks, at least for a while into mid-game. Then you don't need them after that, and you don't have to invest into stim/infantry upgrades.
I would keep playing mech! You can definitely mech TvT, in TvP a lot of new mech builds are popping up, as well as older ones from beta that are more refined, and TvZ mech is still viable, though I think in TvZ biomech with 3/3 bio + 3/0 tanks/thors is the standard and strongest possible play.
One thing I would advise if you are meching a lot in TvP - be careful when you build thors, if ever. You'll become really vulnerable to carrier switches if you make thors instead of vikings. And vs mass immortals...I don't think there's really a reason to get thors vs that. I do not really understand the thought process some players lately have had when they get 250 mm cannon/thors vs immortals.
Unless there is a critical mass of thors that can be reached that even demolishs gateway+immortals, if so then that is probably why.
Though, I can understand thors if they are massing phoenix or voids, or to beefen up a max ground vs ground army. In those cases, thors are awesome. But ghostmech is always better than adding in thors/250 vs mass immortals/templar imo.
And 2 vikings cost the same as 1 thor, the difference being if the protoss somehow stalls to carriers, an accumulated viking force can be there for carriers, whereas thors are terrible versus carriers, as well as hard to move around with your main army vs ground+carriers.
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On January 28 2011 08:39 TheWarbler wrote:
Then it is to hard to stay alive. I have done 16 CC builds but it is very hard to stay alive before the 9min mark when you can really get ur T2.5 in action
bunkers and tanks...planetary fortress on your expo if you think you need it.
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bunkers and tanks...planetary fortress on your expo if you think you need it.
Really? Your getting attacked by a 1base protoss at 8:30 with the standard 4 warpgate pressure, and you're going to have tanks, seige mode, marines, bunkers, engineering bay and a planetary fortress with two bases going?
Even if you managed somehow to get all that, he just warps 4 zealots into your main base and that's gg. You need something a bit more mobile than that.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On January 28 2011 07:43 Garmer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 03:47 infinity21 wrote:
You can still kill a lot of probes before the Hellions die. The problem with opening with mech is that you are pretty vulnerable to early attacks. I do believe that the only solution to late game tvp is mech though. The only question is, how do you transition safely to it in mid/late game. u can build first some marine and then make the transition to mech, i have a build that is a transition from marine tank to fullmech, and it's work Bo: 10(and start the 11 scv) make supply 12 rax 13(and start the 14 scv) make second rax 15 make OC 18-20 make two rafinery(if u make them at 18 stop marine production for a sec) (never stop scv for marines stop production at 12, they are enough to deal with rushers, if u want make one bunker too) make two factory when u reached 200 gas when factory are completed make 2 tech lab and two tank(than start OC you are about at 7:00 minute) make other 2 tank then make other two fact(pump some hellion from them) with your first 200 gas, and establish your OC from here you can make full mech... don't forget to take 2exp at 15 max(13-14 is better)
Is it just me or does this build sound ridiculously passive and low econ?
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Yes, thats how I felt also. But mech is quite passive unless it is TvT imo.
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You really need to understand hard counters, TvP Chargelots and immortals gg you if you are even slightly out of position, so just expand very slowly and smoothly making supply walls all the way to his base with turrets and sensor towers, this way you are always in position. Blueflame is ness, 2-1 or 3-2 is pretty ness and a few planetary fortress's along the main routes between your bases, say infront of hise base if you took position is very helpful.
Mech in some sense becomes very OP if used right.
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Streaming!!! come watch for MECH Vs ALL
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A little off topic (not really) but i went to the stream and an ad came up for the game "MechQuest" and it made me lol ^^
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what do you think... opening whit cloack banshee (tvz)
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Make sure with a mech build you get many tanks and be patient.
P. S. Check out my gamecasts at youtube.com/ggstarcaster
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A recent Day9 daily focused on mech play and highlights Jinro's mech play vs MC. You may find it helpful for this venture:
Day[9] Daily #247 - Newbie Tuesday: Jinro's TvP Mech
I enjoy seeing someone pick a strat and stick with it. Good luck. It's all about having fun!
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On January 28 2011 06:52 TheWarbler wrote:
Thanks for the advice on TvZ those roach all-ins kill!
No problem.
You might also want to make supply depot walls in your natural on the more open maps like xelnaga for your tanks to hide behind.
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On January 28 2011 16:13 heyyouyesyou wrote:
No problem.
You might also want to make supply depot walls in your natural on the more open maps like xelnaga for your tanks to hide behind.
Yes I started thinking the same thing.
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i don't even understand, why most people go for a crazy fast exp, before 5 min, under that time you are still saturating your main, i think it's silly to go fast with fe(at least for terran), best time for expand is 6-7 minute for terran, try it....
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On January 29 2011 01:12 Garmer wrote:
i don't even understand, why most people go for a crazy fast exp, before 5 min, under that time you are still saturating your main, i think it's silly to go fast with fe(at least for terran), best time for expand is 6-7 minute for terran, try it....
While that is true, you are disregarding the impact of having double the scv production from 5 to 7 minutes, and the effect of having an additional OC for two minutes.
It is not all about saturation.
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On January 29 2011 01:12 Garmer wrote:
i don't even understand, why most people go for a crazy fast exp, before 5 min, under that time you are still saturating your main, i think it's silly to go fast with fe(at least for terran), best time for expand is 6-7 minute for terran, try it....
getting a fast cc means twice the scv production and quicker critical mass of units.
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Dont forget how nice it is to take a 3rd gas to help with Tank and thor production.
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yeah, i know that is not only a matter of saturation, but you also can have more problem if your opponent make some kinda of rush(hidden proxy or something like that), i think vs toss is very risky...anyway, i'm not talking about delaying it too much, just 1-2 min
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Liked your game on shakuras. You can build more turrets around your bases with the excess minerals to stop possible void rays/ warp prism back stabs.
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On January 29 2011 01:47 Sapphire.lux wrote:Liked your game on shakuras. You can build more turrets around your bases with the excess minerals to stop possible void rays/ warp prism back stabs.
Yea, some games I've gotten so much excess minerals that I just throw down more barracks but I've started thinking that more turrets and planetary fortresses all over the place would be much better. If i scout a lot of void rays, I just pop down like 2-3 more starports once I'm on 3-4 bases.
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On January 28 2011 08:50 avilo wrote:
I'm glad more people are meching again. After I re-learned bio+viking TvP, the last 2 weeks I decided to bite the bullet and re-learn the mech style that I wrote a guide for ages ago, but more brood war style with a heavier emphasis on hellions, and it's working pretty damn well so far.
In beta, I mostly did mass tank with a few hellions every now and then, and vikings. But that was when tanks did their brood war damage so you could play brood war mass tank style and max out with almost all tanks + some vikings for air + ghosts.
Now though, a heavier hellion mech vs P definitely is viable. Lots of tanks + hellions, with reactored vikings for collosus/voids, and as the game goes on, adding in ghosts.
You do need marines for the entire early game, either off of a reactored barracks or 2 rax, but you eventually stop producing them for lots of hellions, or you can decide to keep constantly producing them off of a reactored barracks, at least for a while into mid-game. Then you don't need them after that, and you don't have to invest into stim/infantry upgrades.
I would keep playing mech! You can definitely mech TvT, in TvP a lot of new mech builds are popping up, as well as older ones from beta that are more refined, and TvZ mech is still viable, though I think in TvZ biomech with 3/3 bio + 3/0 tanks/thors is the standard and strongest possible play.
One thing I would advise if you are meching a lot in TvP - be careful when you build thors, if ever. You'll become really vulnerable to carrier switches if you make thors instead of vikings. And vs mass immortals...I don't think there's really a reason to get thors vs that. I do not really understand the thought process some players lately have had when they get 250 mm cannon/thors vs immortals.
Unless there is a critical mass of thors that can be reached that even demolishs gateway+immortals, if so then that is probably why.
Though, I can understand thors if they are massing phoenix or voids, or to beefen up a max ground vs ground army. In those cases, thors are awesome. But ghostmech is always better than adding in thors/250 vs mass immortals/templar imo.
And 2 vikings cost the same as 1 thor, the difference being if the protoss somehow stalls to carriers, an accumulated viking force can be there for carriers, whereas thors are terrible versus carriers, as well as hard to move around with your main army vs ground+carriers.
I must say this post made me happy. It makes me so excited to see people who did lots of meching back in the beta going back to it. Too much BW (if you can have too much that is) mech just has a special place in my heart.
Avilo I would love to watch you streaming some tvp mech play.
I think your right about the thor thing in any mu where I get thors its either SURPRISE I have a thor or 1-2 thors are built just to force the enemy air units into spreading out.
Void Rays or phonexes that come in too clumped up will spell disaster for the toss player That thor only has to get 1-2 volleys off to become way more cost effective then the 1viking and 1 tank that you could of built. (you lose 1 tank because the factory produces a thor instead and a viking since the thor costs more your reactored port can only produce 1 viking that cycle)
+ Show Spoiler +The one thing that confused me about that game is goddy had the awesome oppurtunity for some early pressure but he backs of without seeing anything and Im trying to figure out why... even watching it from his camera view I can't tell...
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@TheWarbler: Have you tried a 1-1-1 cloaked banshee expand into marine/thor/banshee?
Its a very powerful powerful unit composition that works well with each match up and cloaked banshees allow you to defend against roach allins/baneling busts, quick tank pushes, or 4gate allin.
It can contain a toss or terran but against zerg i would stick to 1gas and skip cloak as 200 minerals/gas is a large investment to be nulified by mutas.
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I am not a big fan of banshees in my play. Dose not fit my Defensive style. Also takes to much gas that can be put into tanks. I find tanks effective in any matchup.
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Hey m8 who play terran try to use SIEGE TANKS + HELLIONS agenst protoss and also afective agenst zerg... Mass up siege tanks and mass hellions...(mass meens 10 and more) you will devestate protoss or zerg (zerglings and beinglings) try this mecha strategy ... alos agenst zerg try build some thors as well (zerg can go on mutas.)
one more thing be cerfull if toss go air.... that is only cance to win agenst seige + hellions...but try this strategy its great...
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On January 29 2011 09:14 bole wrote:
Hey m8 who play terran try to use SIEGE TANKS + HELLIONS agenst protoss and also afective agenst zerg... Mass up siege tanks and mass hellions...(mass meens 10 and more) you will devestate protoss or zerg (zerglings and beinglings) try this mecha strategy ... alos agenst zerg try build some thors as well (zerg can go on mutas.)
one more thing be cerfull if toss go air.... that is only cance to win agenst seige + hellions...but try this strategy its great...
Actually if you go mainly siege tank + hellion you may be a little vunerable for mass blink stalkers, but I guess that b. stalkers are so rearely used against terran that it`s not much of a threat.
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On January 28 2011 02:31 Boundless wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 09:31 Autunno wrote:On January 27 2011 09:24 Boundless wrote:On January 27 2011 09:10 GrassEater wrote:
I am starting a stream where i will make only immortals and voidrays. Do you want to play some games? This post made me lol. In all seriousness though, it's good to see at least some people willing to try mech. It's not for me because of my BW background with zerg, but I want to see it evolve in the metagame at least. Then we can get some bio/mech fake openings like oov was pulling off left and right back in the good old days..... I for one have been playing a lot of mech lately, only going for bio when I feel that the oponent made too many mistakes at the beginning, so I can finish him off fast. But I don`t think that evolve is the right word for it. This style of play simply does not suit most players, either for the units being too slow or for being much harder to execute properly, as it requires macroing skills AND smooth transitions so that you don`t die to timming atacks. And yeah, I`m looking forward to see some of your replays. No, it's definitely the right word. Right now the TvP and TvZ metagame has pretty much reduced to MMM and marine medivac tank, respectively. Sure, people try to mech on the ladder, but the world's top players simply don't do it. The metagame for T right now has really stagnated, and I've been saying this for quite a while. I see threads all over the place like MrBitter's Zerg tutorials, the gosucoaching podcasts where they talk almost exclusively about zerg play, and other things that point to the zerg metagame evolving and updating itself to deal with the latest things that P and T are throwing around. For crying out loud, after MKP made it to the gsl finals on pure cheese and 2rax, the top foreign and Korean zergs spent entire days finding the optimum response to it..... Together. I don't see any T conferences on how to play against phoenix/colossus or good timings to hit against a fast zerg third with early baneling speed. Every T thread on TL that I see (with the exception of this one) is full of whiners that moan about P lategame and mutas being overpowered. Ridiculous stuff. The metagame needs to go somewhere, or we'll be seeing 2rax scv allins forever. I dont think we want that, do we?
I agree with you =). I simply meant that many terran players will not go for it, simply because it's harder to execute than getting lots of barracs and medivacs, and will keep whinning on how HT are OP.
I do believe tho that the high level scene may change soon, but not all players will go for it (players like MVP and MKP love the mobility too much to go for it).
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i love how avilo had this internal crisis where his mech playstyle wasnt good and then just abandoned mech altogether, and then after the jinro games was like okay maybe mech is still good after all.
and to the other guy saying top terrans dont use mech in top tournaments... jinro isn't a top terran and GSL isn't a top tournament I suppose.
Seriously, jinro needs to learn2 plai and make more MMM amirite?
The key to mech is running around with hellions all game while building up tank numbers and expanding a lot. it's easy to force protoss into a defensive position all game, and then by the time they can attack they are walking into a wall of tanks + vikings.
For any protoss users struggling with beating mech, here's an idea.
This is a very specific situation, but if you open up with quick void rays (preferably 2 gate or 3 gate into stargate) you !FORCE! the meching terran to get a fast starport for vikings.
Now, any good terran will be able to defend your initial attack, BUT this is not where you win the game.
You win the game because he doesn't know if you're still making void rays or not, and has to constantly make vikings to be safe. This cut's into factory production CONSIDERABLY this early on in the game.
This means, you could make 2 void rays then just expand, and the terran will be contained spamming vikings. By the time he has a ground army to move out to his natural (depending on the map, obviously) you will be close to taking your third, or just massing up on whatever cheesy 2 base natural busting unit combo you feel like.
So in essence, an early seemingly all in stargate build is actually quite economic vs mech, as you end up getting your expansion up and running long before the terran, even though he builds it and has the OC sitting in his base for like 3 minutes. You'd at least end up even.
It's kind of like the fake double from sc:bw, you fake making a bunch of void rays, you poke with them, and then just expand and lol as the opponent is stuck in his base unable to move out.
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The issue as I see it is that EVERY game where a terran goes mech depends on a huge pickup where hellion harass kills dozens of probes. If that doesn't happen, terran is done. Mech isn't competitive unless you're already in a position of advantage. Siege tanks will simply get straight up beaten, as will thors. Now, if you do get such an advantage such as by good hellion harass, and you do manage to get your mech army up, it is highly survivable. You can win battles with few casualties and snowball the game in your favor.
So mech isn't useless. But it is definitely not a cost-competitive composition the way infantry is. Siege tanks and thors are strong, but for cost, for supply, and for all the strategic weaknesses such as immobility and weaknesses to air units, the factory's unit suite is just not as good as the barracks'.
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Out of all the replays I've watched of him, I don't think GOODY has ever won a game where he's gone for a pure mech style.
His macro is so bad (4 tanks queued all game long on every factory??) and his harrass is nonexistant. His decision making is also very questionable, in the replay you posted he built as if the opponent was going for a void ray rush but in reality the toss just went for a robo expand.. Obviously his scouting needs work as well.
I really like the guy for playing mech against good people, but damn. I wish he had about 100 more apm.
I also don't see why mech terran players make thors, ever, except maybe 1 or 2 just to soak up damage (this used to be better when you could have 2 thors being autorepaired to invincibility while your tanks destroyed everything, but this sadly got nerfed). I used to think it was good to take out immortals but there are better alternatives to cut their shields and then the tanks just demolish them.
The only situation where I would make thors (contrary to what avilo says - he's wrong) is against carriers. The tosses ground army is going to be sacrificed so you don't NEED the huge tank numbers to win outright, and more ground to air is very acceptable (and safe) along with the obvious mass vikings. The reason thors are good in this situation is because you already have 3+ factories with tech labs, and maybe not so many starports. Thors are also good at tanking interceptors while vikings blow holes in the carriers hull. It makes your army more flexible vs the wish-washy half ground half air combo of the protoss.
One thing I'm very scared of is that protosses will learn how to build and control motherships. A vortex on your tanks before you can snipe the mothership could leave your army defenseless. It reminds me of the lord of the rings - the two towers scene where aragorn is shouting for legolass to shoot down the orc with the torch before he can blow up the wall, but he isn't able to do it in time and the orc gets the vortex ... err I mean bomb off in time.
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On January 29 2011 18:10 ledarsi wrote:
The issue as I see it is that EVERY game where a terran goes mech depends on a huge pickup where hellion harass kills dozens of probes. If that doesn't happen, terran is done. Mech isn't competitive unless you're already in a position of advantage. Siege tanks will simply get straight up beaten, as will thors. Now, if you do get such an advantage such as by good hellion harass, and you do manage to get your mech army up, it is highly survivable. You can win battles with few casualties and snowball the game in your favor.
So mech isn't useless. But it is definitely not a cost-competitive composition the way infantry is. Siege tanks and thors are strong, but for cost, for supply, and for all the strategic weaknesses such as immobility and weaknesses to air units, the factory's unit suite is just not as good as the barracks'.
Not necessarily, the threat of hellions running around should be enough to keep the protoss at bay until he's pretty sure he wants to try and bust you.
The hellions are part of the strategy. That's like saying bio is only good because of the medivacs doing drops and healing everything...
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On January 29 2011 11:33 Autunno wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2011 09:14 bole wrote:
Hey m8 who play terran try to use SIEGE TANKS + HELLIONS agenst protoss and also afective agenst zerg... Mass up siege tanks and mass hellions...(mass meens 10 and more) you will devestate protoss or zerg (zerglings and beinglings) try this mecha strategy ... alos agenst zerg try build some thors as well (zerg can go on mutas.)
one more thing be cerfull if toss go air.... that is only cance to win agenst seige + hellions...but try this strategy its great... Actually if you go mainly siege tank + hellion you may be a little vunerable for mass blink stalkers, but I guess that b. stalkers are so rearely used against terran that it`s not much of a threat.
This post is infactual. Where is your reasoning or evidence or replays?
There is some merit, where if the protoss has a much better economy and can afford to send in "stalker bombs" blinking into your siege ball, or if he for some reason was able to destroy a chunk of your tanks and you aren't able to blow the stalkers all away before they can blink in and kill all your crap.
Why would blink stalkers be bad vs a strongly macrod tank/hellions force?
First of all, tanks destroy stalkers very easily, second of all, when they blink in they get automatically balled together. Guess what? Tanks and hellions both do very nice area of effect damage. You might do some cute damage from the tanks hitting each other, but your entire army is going to die very fast as well.
If you're interested in having tanks work against the terran, do zealot warp prism drops (in the tank line so they shoot each other, or in the mineral line so the tanks kill SCVS)
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On January 28 2011 08:30 TheWarbler wrote:
Going flew blown mech of tank hellion thor vikings is ridiculously GAS HEAVY. So you need biological units you really do. If we had Goliaths instead of like thors it would be so much better. I would trade Thor's for Goliath's anyday but I don't want to put this in a sc2 vs bw discussion.
In starcraft 2 goliaths are created from the barracks and cost 50 minerals. You can also make them from the starport but they cost 150/75. They also don't require an armory any more. Pretty sweet buff hmm?
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QQMonster: I agree the hellions are part of the strategy. However any strategy where you depend on a single lucky event is a weak strategy, no matter how much it works right now.
Against good players you will not get to sneak 5 blue flame hellions into his worker line and roast 20+ probes. There are tons of replays out there of mech terrans killing far more than that even with their hellion harass.
Even in the Jinro vs MC game on Lost Temple, + Show Spoiler +Jinro cleaned out MC's natural wholesale, and his massive tank line with bunkered marines crumpled almost completely when MC assaulted it.
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On January 29 2011 01:50 emidanRKO wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2011 01:47 Sapphire.lux wrote:Liked your game on shakuras. You can build more turrets around your bases with the excess minerals to stop possible void rays/ warp prism back stabs. Yea, some games I've gotten so much excess minerals that I just throw down more barracks but I've started thinking that more turrets and planetary fortresses all over the place would be much better. If i scout a lot of void rays, I just pop down like 2-3 more starports once I'm on 3-4 bases.
You could try making more reactor factories and slamming out hellions like crazy. Once' it's lategame you could have like 3 dropships as well as hellions doing runby's constantly.
Making strategically placed planetary's + turret lines cross map while meching is hilariously good. You just plant them down and put a siege line behind them and then the toss army auto targets the 1500 health building while getting BLOWN APART.
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On January 29 2011 19:32 Vezex wrote:
I've been going mech in tvz, but I'm basicly forced to 2 base allin.There is no getting a 3rd against a good zerg that is going to pick me apart with counter attacks.
Also because I am so dependent on getting critical mass, I can't effectively harass outside of early game with hellions
He gets 4 bases up and running then holds down his R key and wins once his t3 is out.
Or i roll over him and win easily/
I want mech to work, but counter attacking is so strong in this game and mech doesn't handle that well.
You're doing it wrong.
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On January 29 2011 18:39 ledarsi wrote:QQMonster: I agree the hellions are part of the strategy. However any strategy where you depend on a single lucky event is a weak strategy, no matter how much it works right now. Against good players you will not get to sneak 5 blue flame hellions into his worker line and roast 20+ probes. There are tons of replays out there of mech terrans killing far more than that even with their hellion harass. Even in the Jinro vs MC game on Lost Temple, + Show Spoiler +Jinro cleaned out MC's natural wholesale, and his massive tank line with bunkered marines crumpled almost completely when MC assaulted it.
Be careful not to confuse what looks like a lucky event with a well timed, well orchestrated, well planned tactic.
The fact that top GSL korean progamers are losing games to blue flame hellions should be evidence enough that they have a very strong place in the matchup.
Perhaps they are even *gasp* imbalanced? I think as this game develops you will hear people scream for nerfs to the blue flame upgrade. They are just such potent units.
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On January 29 2011 17:59 QQmonster wrote:
i love how avilo had this internal crisis where his mech playstyle wasnt good and then just abandoned mech altogether, and then after the jinro games was like okay maybe mech is still good after all.
and to the other guy saying top terrans dont use mech in top tournaments... jinro isn't a top terran and GSL isn't a top tournament I suppose.
Seriously, jinro needs to learn2 plai and make more MMM amirite?
The key to mech is running around with hellions all game while building up tank numbers and expanding a lot. it's easy to force protoss into a defensive position all game, and then by the time they can attack they are walking into a wall of tanks + vikings.
For any protoss users struggling with beating mech, here's an idea.
This is a very specific situation, but if you open up with quick void rays (preferably 2 rax or 3 rax stargate) you !FORCE! the meching terran to get a fast starport for vikings.
Now, any good terran will be able to defend your initial attack, BUT this is not where you win the game.
You win the game because he doesn't know if you're still making void rays or not, and has to constantly make vikings to be safe. This cut's into factory production CONSIDERABLY this early on in the game.
This means, you could make 2 void rays then just expand, and the terran will be contained spamming vikings. By the time he has a ground army to move out to his natural (depending on the map, obviously) you will be close to taking your third, or just massing up on whatever cheesy 2 base natural busting unit combo you feel like.
So in essence, an early seemingly all in stargate build is actually quite economic vs mech, as you end up getting your expansion up and running long before the terran, even though he builds it and has the OC sitting in his base for like 3 minutes. You'd at least end up even.
I haven't seen the jinro games. Every 2 weeks to a month I switch styles up between bio/mech to learn new things/refine things. Plus, sometimes, bio seems weak as hell, other times mech seems weak as hell, then other times it's the opposite and one or the other feels extremely strong.
It's good to learn both imo. Especially, cause some P suck against bio, other P suck against mech.
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I actually agree- I even play terran, I think that blue flame hellions are somewhat imbalanced. However, they are currently the only thing propping up mech and making it even remotely playable. If you nerf those hellions, you'd better buff those damn tanks. Significantly. Anyway, regarding your original point, I agree there are timing windows when hellion harass is going to be most effective, and good players hit them exactly. However it's somewhat ridiculous to say "OK, then you hellion harass, and you must kill at least 20 probes to be competitive with this mech build".... Really, if that's how it is you should be going marauder like everyone else, and just get some vikings to handle the colossi, or ghosts for high templar.
In a perfect world we would see a subtle bio nerf and some subtle but significant mech buffs. Marines and marauders just put tanks, and even thors, to shame.
Regarding bio, though, the correct response is to stiffen the counters not to nerf their effectiveness generally. Very subtly, such as making banelings' upgrades +2 (+3 light) instead of +2 (+2 light) so weapons 2 banelings kill unupgraded marines in 1 shot instead of 2, making combat shield very significant (without it even armor 3 marines die to weapons 3 banelings in 1 shot). Colossi and psi storm need no assistance. Maybe a very subtle marauder nerf.
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i think your underestimating the thor, in large number(8-10) they can take down even void ray easily, due to AOE damage, i think they are also good against carrier, this without considering that they benefit from ground upgrades, where viking not... and the final object should be Tank and Thor; T&T!
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On January 29 2011 20:10 ledarsi wrote:
I actually agree- I even play terran, I think that blue flame hellions are somewhat imbalanced. However, they are currently the only thing propping up mech and making it even remotely playable. If you nerf those hellions, you'd better buff those damn tanks. Significantly. Anyway, regarding your original point, I agree there are timing windows when hellion harass is going to be most effective, and good players hit them exactly. However it's somewhat ridiculous to say "OK, then you hellion harass, and you must kill at least 20 probes to be competitive with this mech build".... Really, if that's how it is you should be going marauder like everyone else, and just get some vikings to handle the colossi, or ghosts for high templar.
In a perfect world we would see a subtle bio nerf and some subtle but significant mech buffs. Marines and marauders just put tanks, and even thors, to shame.
Regarding bio, though, the correct response is to stiffen the counters not to nerf their effectiveness generally. Very subtly, such as making banelings' upgrades +2 (+3 light) instead of +2 (+2 light) so weapons 2 banelings kill unupgraded marines in 1 shot instead of 2, making combat shield very significant (without it even armor 3 marines die to weapons 3 banelings in 1 shot). Colossi and psi storm need no assistance. Maybe a very subtle marauder nerf.
You really don't need to kill 20 probes. I mean, lets face it, you're bound to kill at least some probes it would unrealistic to say that no probes will die in a game that blue flame hellions are running around. Even assuming you don't, the main role of the hellions is to keep the toss army away from your base as you macro up a death ball, and to give you army composition information. That death ball is going to be a death ball no matter how many probes you kill.
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On January 29 2011 20:26 Garmer wrote:
i think your underestimating the thor, in large number(8-10) they can take down even void ray easily, due to AOE damage, i think they are also good against carrier, this without considering that they benefit from ground upgrades, where viking not... and the final object should be Tank and Thor; T&T!
vikings take up less food, can be produced faster, cost less, and are more mobile than thors which allows them to chase down the carriers.
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@QQmonster Have you ever seen a protoss end game army come up vs a GOOD mech terran army consisting of Tanks,Ghosts and if they have collosui or phenoixs Vikings. The Ball of what protoss is getting obliterated unless they cetch the mech terran in a terrible position but then again he wouldn't be very good would he. I think you should check out the last protoss game under TvP. it is very nice. I do agree that blueflame hellions can be used more as a mineral dump.
You have also said that warp prisim can really hurt mech. But with mech you gain giant extra minerals so you dumb that into turents. Also dont forget your +2 armor upgrade for buildings it really helps. Also a good mech would be able to get a sensor tower down Stops any drop and you can see where the enemy is moving.
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On January 28 2011 02:31 Boundless wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 09:31 Autunno wrote:On January 27 2011 09:24 Boundless wrote:On January 27 2011 09:10 GrassEater wrote:
I am starting a stream where i will make only immortals and voidrays. Do you want to play some games? This post made me lol. In all seriousness though, it's good to see at least some people willing to try mech. It's not for me because of my BW background with zerg, but I want to see it evolve in the metagame at least. Then we can get some bio/mech fake openings like oov was pulling off left and right back in the good old days..... I for one have been playing a lot of mech lately, only going for bio when I feel that the oponent made too many mistakes at the beginning, so I can finish him off fast. But I don`t think that evolve is the right word for it. This style of play simply does not suit most players, either for the units being too slow or for being much harder to execute properly, as it requires macroing skills AND smooth transitions so that you don`t die to timming atacks. And yeah, I`m looking forward to see some of your replays. No, it's definitely the right word. Right now the TvP and TvZ metagame has pretty much reduced to MMM and marine medivac tank, respectively. Sure, people try to mech on the ladder, but the world's top players simply don't do it. The metagame for T right now has really stagnated, and I've been saying this for quite a while. I see threads all over the place like MrBitter's Zerg tutorials, the gosucoaching podcasts where they talk almost exclusively about zerg play, and other things that point to the zerg metagame evolving and updating itself to deal with the latest things that P and T are throwing around. For crying out loud, after MKP made it to the gsl finals on pure cheese and 2rax, the top foreign and Korean zergs spent entire days finding the optimum response to it..... Together. I don't see any T conferences on how to play against phoenix/colossus or good timings to hit against a fast zerg third with early baneling speed. Every T thread on TL that I see (with the exception of this one) is full of whiners that moan about P lategame and mutas being overpowered. Ridiculous stuff. The metagame needs to go somewhere, or we'll be seeing 2rax scv allins forever. I dont think we want that, do we?
I'm getting more and more frustrated by posters like you and it's getting harder and harder not to pop a vain.
Exhibit 1: Jinro is one of the world's top players and he went Mech TvP and TvT in the RO8 and RO4 of GSL, the most prestigious and competetive SC2 tournament to date. Stating that the Terran and Protoss "metagame" had stagnated is just bullshit. There's plenty of people developing new strategies for all the races, you're just seeing the Zerg ones because you're probably a Zerg player yourself.
Saying that the "zerg metagame" is "evolving and updating itself to deal with the latest things that P and T are throwing around" is just a pure contradictory sentence which probably stems from your misunderstanding of the word "metagame".
Exhibit 2: Getting tired of the people saying MarineKingPrime is only succesful because of cheese and 2 Rax. It just proves you have no insight in how to play Terran and that you're most likely biased as a Zerg player. Everyone with 2 eyes and a brain can tell he's an incredibly talented player and that he doesn't deserve the crap he gets because you don't like his playstyle and the fact that he's Terran.
Exhibit 3: "I don't see any T conferences on how to play against phoenix/colossus or good timings to hit against a fast zerg third with early baneling speed."
Again, you're possibly missing these because you're a Zerg yourself and as such have no interest in searching for them. There's been plenty of discussion amongst Terrans on TL about how to deal with Phoenix/ Colossi, for instance:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=183807¤tpage=4
The second part of your sentence is just your misunderstanding of the TvZ matchup as it's the Zerg that plays passive and responsive, not the Terran. The whole idea of heavy rax play is that you don't get to take an easy expo, let alone a quick third.
Exhibit 4: "Every T thread on TL that I see (with the exception of this one) is full of whiners that moan about P lategame and mutas being overpowered. Ridiculous stuff."
Lol, wow. It's funny that you come into a constructive thread to whine about Terran players whining, it almost seems like ... you're the one whining? Your first post in this thread and you've already whined about the Terran metagame not evolving enough for your liking, MarineKingPrime beeing a cheesy skilless 2-Rax'er, Terrans not discussing enough strategies, not playing enough mech (even though they're having succes playing bio) and finally whining about Terran whining too much even though you've found no Terran whining in this thread. I can't help to find your statements ironic.
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The problem as I see it is the incredible number of probe kills that you frequently see in mech terran games, and then it's still a struggle for the terran to win using tanks even after getting such an enormous advantage. Seriously if you got anything like that many probe kills while going bio the game would be over almost immediately.
The single best example of this play that we have is the Jinro vs MC game on Lost Temple
+ Show Spoiler +Jinro, typical for blue flame hellion harass, drops 4 and kills a TON of probes. Then Protoss later counterpushes into his tank line when down by double digit probes and maybe 30 supply, and does FINE? True, MC's forces were totally annihilated. However he pushed Jinro back into his natural, with only 4 tanks surviving, and if you look at the supply counts, during the battle MC actually CLOSED THE SUPPLY GAP while pushing into a massive tank line. Something is amiss. Possibly a mistake in Jinro's play specific to that game, such as his marines weren't in the bunkers he made in front of his tanks, but still. MC should have been simply flattened by Jinro's titanic tank army.
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On January 29 2011 23:23 ledarsi wrote:The problem as I see it is the incredible number of probe kills that you frequently see in mech terran games, and then it's still a struggle for the terran to win using tanks even after getting such an enormous advantage. Seriously if you got anything like that many probe kills while going bio the game would be over almost immediately. The single best example of this play that we have is the Jinro vs MC game on Lost Temple + Show Spoiler +Jinro, typical for blue flame hellion harass, drops 4 and kills a TON of probes. Then Protoss later counterpushes into his tank line when down by double digit probes and maybe 30 supply, and does FINE? True, MC's forces were totally annihilated. However he pushed Jinro back into his natural, with only 4 tanks surviving, and if you look at the supply counts, during the battle MC actually CLOSED THE SUPPLY GAP while pushing into a massive tank line. Something is amiss. Possibly a mistake in Jinro's play specific to that game, such as his marines weren't in the bunkers he made in front of his tanks, but still. MC should have been simply flattened by Jinro's titanic tank army.
This guy hits the nail on the head. I saw protosses fucking it up so badly, but 2 minutes later they walked over the mech army.
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To me true gameplay is abouth Mecha unites from terrans...blizzard can balace game areound mecha unites and araound bio ball (to me bio ball isnt terran gameplay and its OP)..that is my opinion...
Now try hellions(they are great for harasment) + siege tanks +(sensor towers) ...they destroy protoss...also good agenst benglings zerglings (eaven bether then marines)
Only problem that i find out with seige tanks + helion mech strategy is agenst air unites...but you need to scan then and ofc if you see he go air you go anti air... (thors or svich to starport) and some marines for suport..
in this unite composition hellions and siege tanks you can ofc add some thors and litle groups of marines... but main army is hellions (12+) and siege tanks (+ sensor towers on map ) ..
try it it is great strategy ( pro ppl have problem as terran agenst zealots and imortalls but MASS HELLIONS DESTROY EM like nothing..) i see that terran bulld thors with 250 mm canons but zealots overun tham beffore they use them on imortalls...so hellions (with upgread of 24dps) devestate zealots and imortall shilds..
thx try this
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Just played around 5 games vs protoss in which i went bio and got flattened late game and everysingle one suggested that i try out mech as its "super good". After discussion more about what protoss does that counter mech every single one concluded its either attempt mech in a late game environment and possibly win or all in before they get storm or collossi.
Is it just me or does it seem quite depressing that protoss late game seems so dominant that even protoss dont know what beats them aside from not letting them get to the late game.
I am hoping to try and find a way of getting to mech safely while staying competative in a game, though it just seems like there is too much going against mech for it to work :S
Some low masters replays incoming after i work out a way of making mech work... hopefully ^^ any suggestions?
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Hi in this rep pro terran player go mech build..
http://sc2rep.net/replays/starcraft-2-replay-p-onecruncher-vs-t-fnaticfenix-xelnaga-caverns-01-27-2011
problem is when he get all his siege tanks he bulild some banshy ravens all caind of unites...simply he couldnt conter zealots and imortall shilld....
if he haved 12+ hellions insted of some unites there he would rape those imortalls and zealots...try it ppl belive me... i am toss player but i know the hellions will work on killing toss army easy !!!
zealots and imortallso pass to his siege tanks and after that tanks dont work...like it shoul.. you should build hellions and burn zealtos and imortalls shilld then siege tanks destroy bouth coloss and imortalls and stalkers...
thx for reading i truly whon help terran mech ppl
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On January 29 2011 18:35 QQmonster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2011 11:33 Autunno wrote:On January 29 2011 09:14 bole wrote:
Hey m8 who play terran try to use SIEGE TANKS + HELLIONS agenst protoss and also afective agenst zerg... Mass up siege tanks and mass hellions...(mass meens 10 and more) you will devestate protoss or zerg (zerglings and beinglings) try this mecha strategy ... alos agenst zerg try build some thors as well (zerg can go on mutas.)
one more thing be cerfull if toss go air.... that is only cance to win agenst seige + hellions...but try this strategy its great... Actually if you go mainly siege tank + hellion you may be a little vunerable for mass blink stalkers, but I guess that b. stalkers are so rearely used against terran that it`s not much of a threat. This post is infactual. Where is your reasoning or evidence or replays? There is some merit, where if the protoss has a much better economy and can afford to send in "stalker bombs" blinking into your siege ball, or if he for some reason was able to destroy a chunk of your tanks and you aren't able to blow the stalkers all away before they can blink in and kill all your crap. Why would blink stalkers be bad vs a strongly macrod tank/hellions force? First of all, tanks destroy stalkers very easily, second of all, when they blink in they get automatically balled together. Guess what? Tanks and hellions both do very nice area of effect damage. You might do some cute damage from the tanks hitting each other, but your entire army is going to die very fast as well. If you're interested in having tanks work against the terran, do zealot warp prism drops (in the tank line so they shoot each other, or in the mineral line so the tanks kill SCVS)
Stalkers may be good if the tanks are close together, but I agree with you that if that`s not the case, zealot drop is a better option (or even immortal flanking drop, genius did this against Rainbow and it was quite effective).
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hire is one more great rep when terran go mecha...
http://sc2rep.net/replays/starcraft-2-replay-mouzhasu-vs-escgoody-shakuras-plateau-01-29-2011-0
One more thing to note you need to upgread Hellion dps to 24 vs light...you can alweys have group of hellions if oponent do some caind of drops of something to difend from it...but you need to have upgread if you dont then you cant difend like it should...
also if you go to expend alweys put some siege tanks 2-3 and some hellions to diffend from drops(warp in...)
the main thing is that you need hellios to protect siege tanks from male unites.. and than tank work great..
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On January 30 2011 00:15 Zacsafus wrote:
Just played around 5 games vs protoss in which i went bio and got flattened late game and everysingle one suggested that i try out mech as its "super good". After discussion more about what protoss does that counter mech every single one concluded its either attempt mech in a late game environment and possibly win or all in before they get storm or collossi.
Is it just me or does it seem quite depressing that protoss late game seems so dominant that even protoss dont know what beats them aside from not letting them get to the late game.
I am hoping to try and find a way of getting to mech safely while staying competative in a game, though it just seems like there is too much going against mech for it to work :S
Some low masters replays incoming after i work out a way of making mech work... hopefully ^^ any suggestions?
I think its party in fact because most opponents (PvT) don't stop using MMM and transition into something else. I don't think I've played a PvT where my opponent transitioned out of MMM so I don't rightly know what kind of composition beats the death ball.
Although, I would suspect mech/ghost would be pretty effective.
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On January 30 2011 00:15 Zacsafus wrote:
Is it just me or does it seem quite depressing that protoss late game seems so dominant that even protoss dont know what beats them aside from not letting them get to the late game.
Its very depressing. Not a single protoss could give me advice what to do. Some tried and these were the best (lol):
- drop more (while I am dropping the whole game, but they just defend with cannons and HT and some zealots while they make an unbeatable 200/200 army).
- go mech (believe me guys, mech is great in the lower levels, but around 3k master it's just not good enough. It only works if your opponent is stupid enough to run into your bunkers or after a fail 4gate (*cough* mc vs jinro *cough*).
Every toss knows that they are actually unbeatable, unless they fuck up very hard and if the terran is playing realy realy well (drops everywhere with alot of luck and alot of apm). An early allin or a mistake by the protoss (like a fail 4gate or a fail voidray bust) is the only way to win imo. Drops are great, but it's VERY lotto-style play.
I really would like to see a replay where a terran wins @ lategame where the toss didn't fuck up very hard... It's also funny that protoss players still claim that terran is OP. I understand that early game is hard for protoss, but it's very even when you make use of proper forcefields.
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On January 30 2011 01:27 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 00:15 Zacsafus wrote:
Is it just me or does it seem quite depressing that protoss late game seems so dominant that even protoss dont know what beats them aside from not letting them get to the late game.
Its very depressing. Not a single protoss could give me advice what to do. Some tried and these were the best (lol): - drop more (while I am dropping the whole game, but they just defend with cannons and HT and some zealots while they make an unbeatable 200/200 army). - go mech (believe me guys, mech is great in the lower levels, but around 3k master it's just not good enough. It only works if your opponent is stupid enough to run into your bunkers or after a fail 4gate (*cough* mc vs jinro *cough*). Every toss knows that they are actually unbeatable, unless they fuck up very hard and if the terran is playing realy realy well (drops everywhere with alot of luck and alot of apm). An early allin or a mistake by the protoss (like a fail 4gate or a fail voidray bust) is the only way to win imo. Drops are great, but it's VERY lotto-style play. I really would like to see a replay where a terran wins @ lategame where the toss didn't fuck up very hard... It's also funny that protoss players still claim that terran is OP. I understand that early game is hard for protoss, but it's very even when you make use of proper forcefields.
There should be a rule that forbids talking in absolutes when it concerns abstract concepts like "winnability" and "balance". I hate it when people say "It's unwinnable if race X doesn't screw up", whether it's a Zerg, a Terran or a Protoss ... it's just immensely annoying.
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On January 30 2011 01:27 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 00:15 Zacsafus wrote:
Is it just me or does it seem quite depressing that protoss late game seems so dominant that even protoss dont know what beats them aside from not letting them get to the late game.
Its very depressing. Not a single protoss could give me advice what to do. Some tried and these were the best (lol): - drop more (while I am dropping the whole game, but they just defend with cannons and HT and some zealots while they make an unbeatable 200/200 army). - go mech (believe me guys, mech is great in the lower levels, but around 3k master it's just not good enough. It only works if your opponent is stupid enough to run into your bunkers or after a fail 4gate (*cough* mc vs jinro *cough*). Every toss knows that they are actually unbeatable, unless they fuck up very hard and if the terran is playing realy realy well (drops everywhere with alot of luck and alot of apm). An early allin or a mistake by the protoss (like a fail 4gate or a fail voidray bust) is the only way to win imo. Drops are great, but it's VERY lotto-style play. I really would like to see a replay where a terran wins @ lategame where the toss didn't fuck up very hard... It's also funny that protoss players still claim that terran is OP. I understand that early game is hard for protoss, but it's very even when you make use of proper forcefields.
Sorry, but you shouldnt be allowed to post on these forums. Every post is about "uhh this is high level mech play, look how toss owns him herp derp"
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On January 30 2011 01:52 BKSandland wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 01:27 Dente wrote:On January 30 2011 00:15 Zacsafus wrote:
Is it just me or does it seem quite depressing that protoss late game seems so dominant that even protoss dont know what beats them aside from not letting them get to the late game.
Its very depressing. Not a single protoss could give me advice what to do. Some tried and these were the best (lol): - drop more (while I am dropping the whole game, but they just defend with cannons and HT and some zealots while they make an unbeatable 200/200 army). - go mech (believe me guys, mech is great in the lower levels, but around 3k master it's just not good enough. It only works if your opponent is stupid enough to run into your bunkers or after a fail 4gate (*cough* mc vs jinro *cough*). Every toss knows that they are actually unbeatable, unless they fuck up very hard and if the terran is playing realy realy well (drops everywhere with alot of luck and alot of apm). An early allin or a mistake by the protoss (like a fail 4gate or a fail voidray bust) is the only way to win imo. Drops are great, but it's VERY lotto-style play. I really would like to see a replay where a terran wins @ lategame where the toss didn't fuck up very hard... It's also funny that protoss players still claim that terran is OP. I understand that early game is hard for protoss, but it's very even when you make use of proper forcefields. Sorry, but you shouldnt be allowed to post on these forums. Every post is about "uhh this is high level mech play, look how toss owns him herp derp"
Yeah, talking about the quality of someone's post while your post is even worse. This is a mech discussion. The purpose of it is to DISCUSS. Discuss = both positive points and negative points. I'm explaining why mech is NOT viable. So many people are theorycrafting. Do I really have to post about "uhh mech is so great, it's so viable, look to jinro vs mc herp derp"?
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On January 29 2011 18:39 ledarsi wrote:QQMonster: I agree the hellions are part of the strategy. However any strategy where you depend on a single lucky event is a weak strategy, no matter how much it works right now. Against good players you will not get to sneak 5 blue flame hellions into his worker line and roast 20+ probes. There are tons of replays out there of mech terrans killing far more than that even with their hellion harass. Even in the Jinro vs MC game on Lost Temple, + Show Spoiler +Jinro cleaned out MC's natural wholesale, and his massive tank line with bunkered marines crumpled almost completely when MC assaulted it.
+ Show Spoiler +
Watch the game at the 13:40 mark this is the first time that MC and Jinro engage after Jinro's harrasment. Jinro manages to get what looked like about 15 probes via his hellions dunno its kind of a bad quality video. Right after the hellion drop Jinro does a ledge drop with 2 tanks 3 vikings and 6 marines that basically kill a geyser and stop MC from mining for a little bit. MC takes out that drop with relative ease. I would say that almost puts the net gain from Jinro's harrass almost back to 0. Then comes the epic battle at 13:40 MC pushes out while Jinro is still contructing bunkers and most of the marines die to collosus fire before the battle even starts the basis behind Jinro's defense looks like it is use bunkers to defend the marines from the collosus usr vikings to kill collosus using hellions to kill zealots and tanks to kill everything else and splash things on the ground. I think this fell apart because he pushed for the watch tower too fast is all. But this rumor of you need a lucky mass kill of probes is only partly true because the game is still even after the battle at 13:40 and as I said earlier his harrassment almost returned to 0 return because the units that he now could build due to his worker advantage basically just died with little resistance.
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On January 30 2011 02:06 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 01:52 BKSandland wrote:On January 30 2011 01:27 Dente wrote:On January 30 2011 00:15 Zacsafus wrote:
Is it just me or does it seem quite depressing that protoss late game seems so dominant that even protoss dont know what beats them aside from not letting them get to the late game.
Its very depressing. Not a single protoss could give me advice what to do. Some tried and these were the best (lol): - drop more (while I am dropping the whole game, but they just defend with cannons and HT and some zealots while they make an unbeatable 200/200 army). - go mech (believe me guys, mech is great in the lower levels, but around 3k master it's just not good enough. It only works if your opponent is stupid enough to run into your bunkers or after a fail 4gate (*cough* mc vs jinro *cough*). Every toss knows that they are actually unbeatable, unless they fuck up very hard and if the terran is playing realy realy well (drops everywhere with alot of luck and alot of apm). An early allin or a mistake by the protoss (like a fail 4gate or a fail voidray bust) is the only way to win imo. Drops are great, but it's VERY lotto-style play. I really would like to see a replay where a terran wins @ lategame where the toss didn't fuck up very hard... It's also funny that protoss players still claim that terran is OP. I understand that early game is hard for protoss, but it's very even when you make use of proper forcefields. Sorry, but you shouldnt be allowed to post on these forums. Every post is about "uhh this is high level mech play, look how toss owns him herp derp" Yeah, talking about the quality of someone's post while your post is even worse. This is a mech discussion. The purpose of it is to DISCUSS. Discuss = both positive points and negative points. I'm explaining why mech is NOT viable. So many people are theorycrafting. Do I really have to post about "uhh mech is so great, it's so viable, look to jinro vs mc herp derp"?
You didn't discuss anything, you just basically said mech wasn't viable when it clearly is.
Drops are NOT a lotto-style play, and if you think that, it just shows your misunderstanding of the purpose of doing drops. The goal is to keep his army in his base first and foremost allowing you safe powering up.
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On January 30 2011 02:33 QQmonster wrote:
You didn't discuss anything, you just basically said mech wasn't viable when it clearly is.
It's not.. Show me 1 high level replay where T beats a toss with mech. I meched for months...
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On January 27 2011 09:10 GrassEater wrote:
I am starting a stream where i will make only immortals and voidrays. Do you want to play some games?
I'm guessing that your least favorite units are hydras and marines?
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I have come across an interesting revelation, which is that while playing mech, you must stay on the maximum amount of "safe" bases, which is 2-3 depending on the map, and you MUST make the protoss max on gateway units. I doesn't matter if the protoss has 6 bases to your 2 or 3, if you max out on mech, and he maxes out on gateway units, you will probably win if you have sensor/xel naga tower control and position your army in time for the usually singular game ending battle.
The most viable way to beat mech is HT/Carrier, and to disallow the protoss from doing so, you simply don't attack him, but threaten to attack him. However, you because you cannot attack him, you, to some extent, cannot make ANY bio at all aside from the couple marines that you use in the beginning to hold of pressure.
Ways for the protoss to release supply are to suicide his army, blink stalkers, or warp prism harass.
Suiciding an army allows terran to win the game straight up because siege tanks roll everything. Blink stalkers are a somewhat easy to stop, and same with warp prism harass. Blink stalkers are stopped by the fact that you do not overexpand (2-3 base only), and warp prisms are stopped by mass turrets. The only thing that worries me is using recall from a mothership.
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I am mid diamond but My replay vs Engimoid on the thread starter replay section can help you. GIves you a solid opening.
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On January 30 2011 03:08 Blyadischa wrote:
The only thing that worries me is using recall from a mothership.
Sensor towers and vikings.
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I have been struggling TvZ even doing the hellion opening so I moved I theory crafted a build. Its gonna be 2rax FE, no pressure with the 2 rax. Take gases at right time to allow you to be at a even mineral count and gas count.
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On January 30 2011 04:18 TheWarbler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 03:08 Blyadischa wrote:
The only thing that worries me is using recall from a mothership. Sensor towers and vikings.
But you see, vikings are detrimental to the anti gateway force that you want to make, because you want the protoss to max out on gateway units, terran loses vs carriers/ht late game, so I proposed that to mech you must just not get anti air (except for turrets here and there for warp prisms) and focus on making protoss max on gateway units, and just roll over them.
Without vikings, then you can owned by motherships.
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Carrier HT? Your crazy if u let him do that. Even if hes on 3 base that is insanley gas heavy. Vikings will destory anyway. tanks are good vs HT tbh
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i really love mech play. in TvZ 2-3 factories lategame TvP sometimes more than 1 factory and in TvT about 4-5 factories lategame with 1/2 barracks :p
so mech play is definatly BEAST
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On January 30 2011 02:33 QQmonster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 02:06 Dente wrote:On January 30 2011 01:52 BKSandland wrote:On January 30 2011 01:27 Dente wrote:On January 30 2011 00:15 Zacsafus wrote:
Is it just me or does it seem quite depressing that protoss late game seems so dominant that even protoss dont know what beats them aside from not letting them get to the late game.
Its very depressing. Not a single protoss could give me advice what to do. Some tried and these were the best (lol): - drop more (while I am dropping the whole game, but they just defend with cannons and HT and some zealots while they make an unbeatable 200/200 army). - go mech (believe me guys, mech is great in the lower levels, but around 3k master it's just not good enough. It only works if your opponent is stupid enough to run into your bunkers or after a fail 4gate (*cough* mc vs jinro *cough*). Every toss knows that they are actually unbeatable, unless they fuck up very hard and if the terran is playing realy realy well (drops everywhere with alot of luck and alot of apm). An early allin or a mistake by the protoss (like a fail 4gate or a fail voidray bust) is the only way to win imo. Drops are great, but it's VERY lotto-style play. I really would like to see a replay where a terran wins @ lategame where the toss didn't fuck up very hard... It's also funny that protoss players still claim that terran is OP. I understand that early game is hard for protoss, but it's very even when you make use of proper forcefields. Sorry, but you shouldnt be allowed to post on these forums. Every post is about "uhh this is high level mech play, look how toss owns him herp derp" Yeah, talking about the quality of someone's post while your post is even worse. This is a mech discussion. The purpose of it is to DISCUSS. Discuss = both positive points and negative points. I'm explaining why mech is NOT viable. So many people are theorycrafting. Do I really have to post about "uhh mech is so great, it's so viable, look to jinro vs mc herp derp"? You didn't discuss anything, you just basically said mech wasn't viable when it clearly is.
And your evidence?
Replays, statistics, etc.?
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Heavy mech TvP and TvT is very viable I have some of my replays posted in the main post.
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On January 30 2011 07:05 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 02:33 QQmonster wrote:On January 30 2011 02:06 Dente wrote:On January 30 2011 01:52 BKSandland wrote:On January 30 2011 01:27 Dente wrote:On January 30 2011 00:15 Zacsafus wrote:
Is it just me or does it seem quite depressing that protoss late game seems so dominant that even protoss dont know what beats them aside from not letting them get to the late game.
Its very depressing. Not a single protoss could give me advice what to do. Some tried and these were the best (lol): - drop more (while I am dropping the whole game, but they just defend with cannons and HT and some zealots while they make an unbeatable 200/200 army). - go mech (believe me guys, mech is great in the lower levels, but around 3k master it's just not good enough. It only works if your opponent is stupid enough to run into your bunkers or after a fail 4gate (*cough* mc vs jinro *cough*). Every toss knows that they are actually unbeatable, unless they fuck up very hard and if the terran is playing realy realy well (drops everywhere with alot of luck and alot of apm). An early allin or a mistake by the protoss (like a fail 4gate or a fail voidray bust) is the only way to win imo. Drops are great, but it's VERY lotto-style play. I really would like to see a replay where a terran wins @ lategame where the toss didn't fuck up very hard... It's also funny that protoss players still claim that terran is OP. I understand that early game is hard for protoss, but it's very even when you make use of proper forcefields. Sorry, but you shouldnt be allowed to post on these forums. Every post is about "uhh this is high level mech play, look how toss owns him herp derp" Yeah, talking about the quality of someone's post while your post is even worse. This is a mech discussion. The purpose of it is to DISCUSS. Discuss = both positive points and negative points. I'm explaining why mech is NOT viable. So many people are theorycrafting. Do I really have to post about "uhh mech is so great, it's so viable, look to jinro vs mc herp derp"? You didn't discuss anything, you just basically said mech wasn't viable when it clearly is. And your evidence? Replays, statistics, etc.?
there are lots of replays available, stop being lazy and do a search. The most popular example is jinro vs MC in the GSL
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You guys are really starting to piss me off. I start the thread to dicuss about the style. But you turning this into a this will never work thing and that is not the point of the thread.
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On January 30 2011 07:40 TheWarbler wrote:
You guys are really starting to piss me off. I start the thread to dicuss about the style. But you turning this into a this will never work thing and that is not the point of the thread.
Dont let them get you down man i think your thread is great and that mech has the possiblility of becoming a much more refined play style, stick to it and see where it goes.
Also im trying to get more tanks into my play but this cuts down on antiair so ive been trying out a sc bw slow push style with turrets and depot walls. Ill get some replays for you once i get down the gameflow and feel more comfortable with my pushing/positioning.
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Just PM me the replays and I will throw them into the thread.
I no1 will ever get me down mech is amazing.!
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good luck. the current meta is such a highly aggressive game that if you can manage to negate that and come out ahead, mech can certainly become the future.
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Can do.
@Terranist: I agree the first step to playing a defensive style is to survive. 3Gate Robo with immortals and 3gate stargate with voidrays are going to be the hardest to stop.
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As a new Terran I'm looking for a play style that is viable in all 3 match ups...so I can focus on improving my mechanics moreso than my unit comp and decision making. Unfortunately I don't care much for MMM play.
Playing mech has been fun so far! But the biggest problem I've run into is that I never know how many factories I should make. Yes I can calculate the # of factories I can afford to continuously produce from very easily. However I've found that I often want extra production capacity because it takes so long for mech to remax. I feel this is the main thing holding me back in TvZ and TvT. TvP hasnt been too big of a problem because the only thing they can remax quickly with are gateway units, which get absolutely destroyed by my mech. How many "extra" factories do you make? And if none, how do you deal with 300 food pushes? (other than the obvious harass more, don't let the opponent get there)
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On January 30 2011 04:27 Blyadischa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 04:18 TheWarbler wrote:On January 30 2011 03:08 Blyadischa wrote:
The only thing that worries me is using recall from a mothership. Sensor towers and vikings. But you see, vikings are detrimental to the anti gateway force that you want to make, because you want the protoss to max out on gateway units, terran loses vs carriers/ht late game, so I proposed that to mech you must just not get anti air (except for turrets here and there for warp prisms) and focus on making protoss max on gateway units, and just roll over them. Without vikings, then you can owned by motherships.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but you're assuming too much... Why would the protoss ever stick to gateway units when teching is in large part what beats mech? Turrets won't protect you from colossi or any serious stargate play. You want a ton of turrets, yes, but that's mostly to suppliment your vikings, deny observers and deter drops and DTs.
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Huge props to the warbler for seriously taking a crack at trying to work terran mech out systematically. I really want to play mech as a style, however it increasingly feels like even with a large harassment advantage from hellions it's an uphill battle.
At the moment mech is very strong once two things are true. Firstly, if your army will actually beat the enemy army. This is where mech is supposed to be most powerful, as it trades away mobility and strategic flexibility for raw power. Mech's issue is that it feels like it's not strong enough for all the advantages it trades away, and you actually need to do a lot of damage to the enemy economy to make this first condition happen. Also the sheer number of tanks needed for a critical mass is so large it precludes holding more than one, at most two locations in any way.
The second condition is when you can be defensive, and still win. There are a few ways to go about doing this, such as setting up a hard contain outside the enemy natural and taking many bases around the map, or being a passive macro player and simply out-macroing your opponent while they cannot hurt you. This should be the reason why mech is hard, since you have to play in an unshakably stable manner in order to make mech work. The enemy should be forced to drop you, to harass you, to chew on you a bite at a time since they can't just bumrush you or they will be crushed.
The problem is that this second condition is somewhat meaningless if game-equivalent supply of mech can actually just be overrun and destroyed outright (mech armies will be smaller somewhat). I've done it with marine marauder, protoss and zerg can do it with their low tech units. It is depressing to do, and equally depressing to have done to you. For all their weaknesses tanks deserve more straight up combat power. It shouldn't be an option to straight up assault a well entrenched tank line. In the Jinro vs MC game, + Show Spoiler +MC showed it can actually work out alright for the protoss even if he's already far behind.
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I go mech every MU as T I mean pure mech no infantry at all
Mech works really good vs Zerg
Mech vs Terran is if man this is the hardest MU to mech imo but its still strong, but it seems like a small MMM drop can cause huge dgm cause how slow tanks are, but still good
mech vs Protoss is my favorite I personally like going Tank/Hellion/Viking heavy vs colo/gw units I add Thors if needed in certain things like carriers/vr with a mix of vikings of course
Mech does work imo it's just harder to execute properly right now, but nothing stronger to harrase with blue flame hellions 2 one shot all workers
BTW 3 gate robo or Star is easy to stop basically this is my build order
Same build order as 1-1-1
2 rines
Fact
add reactor
2 rines + hellion
exp around 28ish
Scout with Hellion most of the time you will be able to scout properly with a Hellion
Basically if they go exp no need for bunker if they going for 1 base play just mass rine from that 1 rax while pumping tanks make 2 bunkers + turret you will be able to hold 3 gate star / or robo builds placing your tanks properly matters a lot
that 3rd 50 energy if you scout with Hellion just use it for a Mule
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Thank you ledarsi I really think mech can be as strong as it is in BW with the right play. I am gonna be using it in the Zeek tourney in 9min so wish me luck haha.
I play a defensive style of mech. It fits me well and allows my macro to win the game for me.
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On January 30 2011 07:25 QQmonster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 07:05 Fruscainte wrote:On January 30 2011 02:33 QQmonster wrote:On January 30 2011 02:06 Dente wrote:On January 30 2011 01:52 BKSandland wrote:On January 30 2011 01:27 Dente wrote:On January 30 2011 00:15 Zacsafus wrote:
Is it just me or does it seem quite depressing that protoss late game seems so dominant that even protoss dont know what beats them aside from not letting them get to the late game.
Its very depressing. Not a single protoss could give me advice what to do. Some tried and these were the best (lol): - drop more (while I am dropping the whole game, but they just defend with cannons and HT and some zealots while they make an unbeatable 200/200 army). - go mech (believe me guys, mech is great in the lower levels, but around 3k master it's just not good enough. It only works if your opponent is stupid enough to run into your bunkers or after a fail 4gate (*cough* mc vs jinro *cough*). Every toss knows that they are actually unbeatable, unless they fuck up very hard and if the terran is playing realy realy well (drops everywhere with alot of luck and alot of apm). An early allin or a mistake by the protoss (like a fail 4gate or a fail voidray bust) is the only way to win imo. Drops are great, but it's VERY lotto-style play. I really would like to see a replay where a terran wins @ lategame where the toss didn't fuck up very hard... It's also funny that protoss players still claim that terran is OP. I understand that early game is hard for protoss, but it's very even when you make use of proper forcefields. Sorry, but you shouldnt be allowed to post on these forums. Every post is about "uhh this is high level mech play, look how toss owns him herp derp" Yeah, talking about the quality of someone's post while your post is even worse. This is a mech discussion. The purpose of it is to DISCUSS. Discuss = both positive points and negative points. I'm explaining why mech is NOT viable. So many people are theorycrafting. Do I really have to post about "uhh mech is so great, it's so viable, look to jinro vs mc herp derp"? You didn't discuss anything, you just basically said mech wasn't viable when it clearly is. And your evidence? Replays, statistics, etc.? there are lots of replays available, stop being lazy and do a search. The most popular example is jinro vs MC in the GSL
First, there are not a lot of replays available of top level mech play.
Also, stop mentioning Jinro vs MC because thats not enough evidence. Also you could read
On January 30 2011 01:27 Dente wrote:
- go mech (believe me guys, mech is great in the lower levels, but around 3k master it's just not good enough. It only works if your opponent is stupid enough to run into your bunkers or after a fail 4gate (*cough* mc vs jinro *cough*).
Thats the only reason Jinro won. MC did'nt play nearly as good as Jinro did and made a ton of mistakes.
Why don't you do some research and give us some replays?
(im talking about many (because u said lots) of replays at very high lvl)
Because i can give u a replay of Goody, who is an extremely talented player that has been doing Mech since ever getting raped by Naniwa
I think Bio Mech has much more future in TvP. Mainly MarineTank.
Even tho marines are extremely fragile lategame vs Protoss. They can be massproduced and act as supports for the tanks.
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I don't care what haters say, Mech is viable in TvP. Yeah MC didn't play exactly how he should have vs Mech or whatnot I don't care the simple fact it beat him is enough to prove it to me because winning at all in sc2 involves you doing X strategy and your opponent not reacting correctly to it or you doing X strategy and your opponent doing Y strategy and yours comes out on top.
Guess what nobody plays perfectly NOBODY. Flash still has idle SCVs in BW ffs. Yeah sc2 is a bit dumbed down but still nobody plays perfectly.
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On January 30 2011 11:09 Reptilia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 07:25 QQmonster wrote:On January 30 2011 07:05 Fruscainte wrote:On January 30 2011 02:33 QQmonster wrote:On January 30 2011 02:06 Dente wrote:On January 30 2011 01:52 BKSandland wrote:On January 30 2011 01:27 Dente wrote:On January 30 2011 00:15 Zacsafus wrote:
Is it just me or does it seem quite depressing that protoss late game seems so dominant that even protoss dont know what beats them aside from not letting them get to the late game.
Its very depressing. Not a single protoss could give me advice what to do. Some tried and these were the best (lol): - drop more (while I am dropping the whole game, but they just defend with cannons and HT and some zealots while they make an unbeatable 200/200 army). - go mech (believe me guys, mech is great in the lower levels, but around 3k master it's just not good enough. It only works if your opponent is stupid enough to run into your bunkers or after a fail 4gate (*cough* mc vs jinro *cough*). Every toss knows that they are actually unbeatable, unless they fuck up very hard and if the terran is playing realy realy well (drops everywhere with alot of luck and alot of apm). An early allin or a mistake by the protoss (like a fail 4gate or a fail voidray bust) is the only way to win imo. Drops are great, but it's VERY lotto-style play. I really would like to see a replay where a terran wins @ lategame where the toss didn't fuck up very hard... It's also funny that protoss players still claim that terran is OP. I understand that early game is hard for protoss, but it's very even when you make use of proper forcefields. Sorry, but you shouldnt be allowed to post on these forums. Every post is about "uhh this is high level mech play, look how toss owns him herp derp" Yeah, talking about the quality of someone's post while your post is even worse. This is a mech discussion. The purpose of it is to DISCUSS. Discuss = both positive points and negative points. I'm explaining why mech is NOT viable. So many people are theorycrafting. Do I really have to post about "uhh mech is so great, it's so viable, look to jinro vs mc herp derp"? You didn't discuss anything, you just basically said mech wasn't viable when it clearly is. And your evidence? Replays, statistics, etc.? there are lots of replays available, stop being lazy and do a search. The most popular example is jinro vs MC in the GSL First, there are not a lot of replays available of top level mech play. Also, stop mentioning Jinro vs MC because thats not enough evidence. Also you could read Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 01:27 Dente wrote:
- go mech (believe me guys, mech is great in the lower levels, but around 3k master it's just not good enough. It only works if your opponent is stupid enough to run into your bunkers or after a fail 4gate (*cough* mc vs jinro *cough*).
Thats the only reason Jinro won. MC did'nt play nearly as good as Jinro did and made a ton of mistakes. Why don't you do some research and give us some replays? (im talking about many (because u said lots) of replays at very high lvl) Because i can give u a replay of Goody, who is an extremely talented player that has been doing Mech since ever getting raped by Naniwa I think Bio Mech has much more future in TvP. Mainly MarineTank. Even tho marines are extremely fragile lategame vs Protoss. They can be massproduced and act as supports for the tanks.
Bio Mech I'd say is weaker than just Bio or just Mech because it's more costly plus you have the weaknesses of both without having all the strengths.
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I agree. Bio mech is stronger in TvZ then opening right into mech.
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On January 30 2011 11:21 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 11:09 Reptilia wrote:On January 30 2011 07:25 QQmonster wrote:On January 30 2011 07:05 Fruscainte wrote:On January 30 2011 02:33 QQmonster wrote:On January 30 2011 02:06 Dente wrote:On January 30 2011 01:52 BKSandland wrote:On January 30 2011 01:27 Dente wrote:On January 30 2011 00:15 Zacsafus wrote:
Is it just me or does it seem quite depressing that protoss late game seems so dominant that even protoss dont know what beats them aside from not letting them get to the late game.
Its very depressing. Not a single protoss could give me advice what to do. Some tried and these were the best (lol): - drop more (while I am dropping the whole game, but they just defend with cannons and HT and some zealots while they make an unbeatable 200/200 army). - go mech (believe me guys, mech is great in the lower levels, but around 3k master it's just not good enough. It only works if your opponent is stupid enough to run into your bunkers or after a fail 4gate (*cough* mc vs jinro *cough*). Every toss knows that they are actually unbeatable, unless they fuck up very hard and if the terran is playing realy realy well (drops everywhere with alot of luck and alot of apm). An early allin or a mistake by the protoss (like a fail 4gate or a fail voidray bust) is the only way to win imo. Drops are great, but it's VERY lotto-style play. I really would like to see a replay where a terran wins @ lategame where the toss didn't fuck up very hard... It's also funny that protoss players still claim that terran is OP. I understand that early game is hard for protoss, but it's very even when you make use of proper forcefields. Sorry, but you shouldnt be allowed to post on these forums. Every post is about "uhh this is high level mech play, look how toss owns him herp derp" Yeah, talking about the quality of someone's post while your post is even worse. This is a mech discussion. The purpose of it is to DISCUSS. Discuss = both positive points and negative points. I'm explaining why mech is NOT viable. So many people are theorycrafting. Do I really have to post about "uhh mech is so great, it's so viable, look to jinro vs mc herp derp"? You didn't discuss anything, you just basically said mech wasn't viable when it clearly is. And your evidence? Replays, statistics, etc.? there are lots of replays available, stop being lazy and do a search. The most popular example is jinro vs MC in the GSL First, there are not a lot of replays available of top level mech play. Also, stop mentioning Jinro vs MC because thats not enough evidence. Also you could read On January 30 2011 01:27 Dente wrote:
- go mech (believe me guys, mech is great in the lower levels, but around 3k master it's just not good enough. It only works if your opponent is stupid enough to run into your bunkers or after a fail 4gate (*cough* mc vs jinro *cough*).
Thats the only reason Jinro won. MC did'nt play nearly as good as Jinro did and made a ton of mistakes. Why don't you do some research and give us some replays? (im talking about many (because u said lots) of replays at very high lvl) Because i can give u a replay of Goody, who is an extremely talented player that has been doing Mech since ever getting raped by Naniwa I think Bio Mech has much more future in TvP. Mainly MarineTank. Even tho marines are extremely fragile lategame vs Protoss. They can be massproduced and act as supports for the tanks. Bio Mech I'd say is weaker than just Bio or just Mech because it's more costly plus you have the weaknesses of both without having all the strengths.
true, besides being able to outrange his army/cannons in a contain situation, biomech doesnt have significantly more firepower than pure bio, but all the bio severly suffers from the immobility that comes with tank play and also thors if u decide to go thor/bio.
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On January 30 2011 11:17 Raiznhell wrote:
I don't care what haters say, Mech is viable in TvP at the lower levels where protoss players do not know how to destroy it.
I edited your post so it is a true one. And I'm not a mech hater. I'm a bio hater. I hate it that I have to use the boring MMM every time again and again. I tried to make mech work so hard. I played mech for months. I tried every combination (thor, tank, hellion, viking), I tried even pure thor, which worked great against tosses who didn't know how to beat it. I beated 3k+ masters with mech who reacted wrong. Some even said that mech is OP. The good tosses adviced me to stop meching. A top 100 protoss once said "if you go mech I just know 100% that I will win".
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On January 30 2011 19:00 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 11:17 Raiznhell wrote:
I don't care what haters say, Mech is viable in TvP at the lower levels where protoss players do not know how to destroy it. I edited your post so it is a true one. And I'm not a mech hater. I'm a bio hater. I hate it that I have to use the boring MMM every time again and again. I tried to make mech work so hard. I played mech for months. I tried every combination (thor, tank, hellion, viking), I tried even pure thor, which worked great against tosses who didn't know how to beat it. I beated 3k+ masters with mech who reacted wrong. Some even said that mech is OP. The good tosses adviced me to stop meching. A top 100 protoss once said "if you go mech I just know 100% that I will win".
and he was wrong.....
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Awesome initiative. As a zerg player I've been finding myself drawn to the mech style of play because I think the macro style is much better suited for my style than the bio all-ins or w/e that we've seen so much in the past. Definately gonna start messing around with terran as my off-race and also check out ur replays (the 1st link u posted on TvZ isn't working btw) and try and catch ur stream, however the time difference from europe might make that hard.
Anyway, just wanna encourage u to keep it up and thank you for this.
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No problem man, I'm just glad I can actually help some people.
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Your first TvZ replay link has oilers] in the middle of the link.
I downloaded the majority. I've been playing Mech but haven't been able to stop a Z from just mass expanding. This should be useful to watch.
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I just started using 2rax fe and moving into Reactor Hellions Stim marines tank and thors. Its been working well. Try push out before he takes his third or right when he dose it
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Yea remember that trying to get more tanks in my mech by slow pushing with turrets instead of thors/vikings as my anitair?
Protoss destroy that.
They see you massing tanks they either dt drop mass void rays/phenoix/immortals and they use the void rays range to keep you from making supply depots and such. So you do need thors and vikings to fight toss
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I don't see any reason to pure mech, I don't think it will ever be as good as biomech. Maybe in lategame TvZ on a small map. But on those maps you usually open some bio play anyway.
Hellions harrass is way too easy to shut down in any matchup, and T gets destroyed lategame TvZ and TvP. You need to do damage with hellions, and chances are big you won't. Biomech will make life easier for you 
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Mech is way under used, just make sure you have medivacs to give you a huge boost in mobility, plus mech drops can take out key buildings very fast. Also you will need to have scvs around your army at all time.
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How do you deal with mass expanding Zergs when playing mech? I always have problems with putting pressure on my opponent.
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The downside to mech is it lacks strong anti-air. Thors are good but only against light air units. This is a disadvantage that Brood War mech did not share thanks to Goliaths. Mixing Vikings into the mix may well work but they are expensive and relatively fragile and will cut into your tank count.
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I use mech as well but the weak anti-air is an obvious downside. Carriers beat mech, VR beats mech, broodlords and mutalisks beat mech. I think mech needs a strong anti-air unit like the classic goliath with high range and damage, hope the expansion gives mech the goliath (I mean they're in campaign although they dont seem that strong in campaign). Ghosts and marines are a good supplement though.
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I don't really understand why most players don't think enough about the combination of playstyles. Terrans mostly have Bio and Mech, so why not combine them effectively?
At the moment i'm having a lot of fun and success in upper Diamond/lower Master with Marine/Thor/Medivac Stim Timing Pushes from 2 bases, mostly against Protoss, though not really being a Terran player.
Against Zerg i like to add some more Marauders to the mix, as they're better against Baneling or Roach.
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In TvZ I open 2rax fe. Once i get about 7-8 Marines I put some pressure on forceing the zerg to use larva on lings and not drones. Then I drop 2 factories in base 1 reactor 1 tech. Also drop another barracks and add reactor and tech lab to other barracks. Then mech a make with marines tank and hellions while I take my third.
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ye if you go pure mecha its problem AA ...agenst zerg you can pull out some thors but you also need at leest one starport for vikings...to conter brodlords...
when you go pure mecha one of best things is hellions harasment but you can build group of 6 .7 heliions and burn all workers.. of oponent...
one more thing you can build sensor tovers and misle turets wholl over map for case of oponent have some air unites..
sensor tower are great becous it give you a vision where you can see everything (what hepens on map) i dont see plenty ppl using them but they are great if you go mecha build...
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On January 30 2011 07:40 TheWarbler wrote:
You guys are really starting to piss me off. I start the thread to dicuss about the style. But you turning this into a this will never work thing and that is not the point of the thread.
lol dude this happened to me too in my Mech Replay thread XD
So many people are just non-believers.
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On January 30 2011 19:00 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 11:17 Raiznhell wrote:
I don't care what haters say, Mech is viable in TvP at the lower levels where protoss players do not know how to destroy it. I edited your post so it is a true one. And I'm not a mech hater. I'm a bio hater. I hate it that I have to use the boring MMM every time again and again. I tried to make mech work so hard. I played mech for months. I tried every combination (thor, tank, hellion, viking), I tried even pure thor, which worked great against tosses who didn't know how to beat it. I beated 3k+ masters with mech who reacted wrong. Some even said that mech is OP. The good tosses adviced me to stop meching. A top 100 protoss once said "if you go mech I just know 100% that I will win".
So your saying the Top Koreans don't know how to destroy it? Because Jinro said he was using Mech in his ladders against the top 200 Koreans and was coming out victorious more often than not.
You say things like it's as simple as just mass expanding and getting this and that unit but I'm pretty sure if it's that simple for you to think up a countermeasure that wins 100% I'm pretty sure a top korean pro could to.
Even if it was in-game and he scouted with his observer a bunch of tanks, the top korean pro is not gunna be like OMG I've never seen this before what ever shall I do!!??
1) because Mech is not a new strategy it's been around since beginning of beta.
2) Mech is immobile giving him plenty of time to whip out his auto-win counter measure you seem to think exists.
Just because you lose a lot with Mech doesn't mean it's a bad strategy maybe you should be posting reps and asking for help instead of saying it's impossible. All the proof I've seen of it not working from you is Goody and Strelock vs Nani but Nani is really friggin good and better than those players and he just outplays them in all aspects.
If the maps were bigger which they will be THEN Mech will probably not be viable at all however I'm sure once the maps get bigger there's gunna be more patches as I doubt anyone would disagree that Zerg would be damn unstoppable on huge maps what with everything being balanced so that Zerg can withstand rushes on small maps and mass expand. Blizzard would be out of their minds not to buff Factory units once the bigger maps are out.
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I've been watching some BW nowadays, it is really much more fun to watch because of longer maps..Hope GSL gets better with bigger maps.
Anyway, from what I can see from BW games, tanks are protected by vulture spider mines from zealots, while dragoons are dealt by tanks. What can protect tanks in SC2 from zealots? I'm thinking helions, but even though they deal great damage to zealots, they die like flies before doing anything. I have thought Auto Turrets, but they don't seem to deal enough damage to fend off zealots in that way.
Perhaps a pack of Marauders with Concussive Shells to slow down the units in front line and demolish Stalkers should be the best option. Or Thors in front of Tanks. Thors can take quite a beating.
There is also the problem of Blink Stalkers, but for that I think Raven PDDs with energy upgrade should be good, but in any case you need to reposition your tanks when they blink on top of you, which is really a not good situation for the tanks.
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I have a serious idea of a mech build against toss. Typically you will end up with lots of tanks/vikings for this matchup mixing in bio/helion/thors to try and buy time for your tanks and vikings.
I propose an idea for the situation where u are 2-3 bases and toss is roughly the same. We all know mech has more mins and to little gas, hence bio and helion in the mix. Why not when you plan to move out with ur 15 tanks or whatever you lead with 2 floating rax. The idea is you land the rax to form a new choke, maybe block off a direction, maybe to decrease the approach side. If you can get 2 rax infront then chargelots are way less effective. If they decide to go around, it takes quite a while with immortals. Realize 2 rax are only 300 mins, meaning if this new choke lets you kill 3 extra zealots, or 2 stalkers, or 1 immortal, they have basically paid for themselves.
With your viking range you should be able to stop them poking at the rax with VR's or collosi without having stalkers get shelled. Tanks left alone are very dangerous, if this strat can allow 1 extra salvo from all 15 tanks, they have more than paid for themselves. It seems very effective for sieging up an expansion. I would even purpose this idea for zerg, but alas creep is op XD.
I hope to get some feedback on this idea, or have some people try it out in customs or something. I myself alreadyhave a hard time macro/micro'n my army and I typically go Thors/helion/bio myself. Good or bad let me know what you think, it doesn't seem like it could hurt you in any situation.
Edit* obviously this strat would have considerably different effectiveness based on map. and note if it works you could cut out some tank buffers like marines or helions for more tanks or vikings.
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Raiznhell you make a good point. While generally speaking I feel tanks are gimp, you make a good point that I do think they are possibly overpowered on a map like, say, Steppes of War. The current map pool is a huge factor. At the moment all the maps, with a few exceptions, are relatively small and with short rush distances so tanks may be balanced as they are currently considering the map pool as a whole. Once maps get bigger they will need a buff badly, but then many things will also need to change as the map pool experiences significant changes.
The issue is that on the larger maps tanks suck (as do thors to a less serious extent), and mech should be a macro style which is BEST on large maps with many bases. This may be a source of terran's late game troubles against zerg and protoss, as tiny maps don't become macro games as often, and then selection bias causes this possibility to be ignored.
However I feel the game should be map-agnostic in its balance. Blizzard seems to disagree, or they are getting around to it and will patch as maps are added until the map pool is so large and diverse that eventually the game is balanced on all (reasonable) possible maps.
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Hey ppl i finaly get something on my mind how terran mecha will be incredibly good...
250mm canons from thor unite (could shot air unites) that would be great buff for mech terran build... also nobady use canons agenst ground unites... so what you think ?
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Cannons are used fairly effectively vs Protoss robotics units.
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Check out hyperdub vs TLO at gomtv.net for a decent TvT mech strategy.
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There was a post a while back about the PvT 2 thor push with vehicle armor 1 and strike cannons. Open with a gas before rax, reactored barracks, quick factory, pump marines and get the armory instantly when the factory finishes. Start the first thor when the armory finishes and get the vehicle armor upgrade. Get the strike cannon upgrade when you can afford it while producing marines and thors. Push out when you have 2 thors and all the sauce, bring 6-10 scv's and whatever marines you have. It's pretty hard for a protoss to stop.
This push comes out at about 8:30, by which time it's impossible for protoss to have a large number of immortals, and if they only have a couple then strike cannon takes them out right away and the repaired thors clean up all the gateway units. The marines add a lot of damage, and also make it a lot more difficult for zealots to kill the scv's repairing the thors. If the stalkers or sentries target fire the thors they are wasting their time.
I think this sort of thor timing push has a lot more potential than any sort of tank nonsense.
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I think your stream cut out. If you're still playing we can't see it... not that you'll probably read this before you're done. I only post because it suddenly died in mid-game.
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My mech is definably being featured on the Day9 daily.
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On February 01 2011 12:28 TheWarbler wrote:
My mech is definably being featured on the Day9 daily.
Your on the Day9 daily. Your mech is more of a BioMech though. Something ive been advocating but nobody listens.
Marines Tanks with air support.
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Well my opponent was not very good. I dident even upgrade stim. Usually by the end of the game I just have Tanks Vikings ghosts and maybe some thors or hellions.
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[QUOTE]On February 01 2011 12:38 TheWarbler wrote:
Well my opponent was not very good. I dident even upgrade stim. Usually by the end of the game I just have Tanks Vikings ghosts and maybe some thors or hellions.[/QUOTE
Since your here i have a suggestion.
Suggestion: Get Ustream/Justin, whater your using o stream is laggy and poor quality.
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I dont know how to set that up.
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Cool i cant wait for the daily.
Also check out TLO vs Hyperdub for a neat TvT mech build.
http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens1/vod/1114
Rough BO:
10Depot
12Rax
13Gas
15OC
2Marines
Factory
2Marines
Hellion
Tech Lab on rax
Armory
Reaper
Hellion
Swap rax and fact
Scout with the Rax
Thor
+1 Mech Attack
CC
Ebay
Siege Mode
2Thor
Turrets for cloaked banshee if they come.
3Tank
PUSH!!!
Try to set up a contain.
Addon 2factories once your natural is up (1Tech, 1Reactor).
Addon 2starports (1tech, 1Reactor).
Hellion/Thor/Tank/Viking/Banshee army composition.
Never stop getting Attack upgrades from armory.
Take a 3rd.
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On January 31 2011 16:57 Dhalphir wrote:
The downside to mech is it lacks strong anti-air. Thors are good but only against light air units. This is a disadvantage that Brood War mech did not share thanks to Goliaths. Mixing Vikings into the mix may well work but they are expensive and relatively fragile and will cut into your tank count.
You are only partially correct mutas are considered a small unit and goliaths did explosive damage meaning they did 50% damage with their AA attack against small targets. IMO the only reason they could fight mutas decently well was their range and high attack rate.
So its not that thors do only good damage vs light that is the problem its more so the gas cost that is the problem. Meaning that vs zerg you suffer vs massmuta baneling compositions. Which leads me the normal biomech composition of tank/marine.
Versus protoss you say that vikings hurt your tank count which is true. However building a couple early on does not hurt much they prevent you from dieing to the Surprise toss air. And if they go mass immortal then you won't have to build any more vikings and you can use them in conjunction with your hellions for harass. 10 supply of vikings won't hurt your amassment of tanks and hellions. So you will still be able to stand toe to toe with the toss's ground army but if you see them putting their supply into air or collosus then you can sacrafice supply into vikings without worry as the toss will have less ground troops too.
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Having played TheWarbler in that game, I can say what it's like to play against a meching terran.
I felt like I could expand anywhere on the map, but I didn't want to try to break the front. I went phoenix/void ray because I basically knew I would lose the ground battle once I saw how many tanks he was getting, and I thought it would be a good way to harass, but he had a ton of missile turrets around his bases. I took my third expansion before (I think) and felt way ahead, but I took my gold later so I ended up being behind. I tried my best to deny expansions but when I took my own, Warbler moved up his unstoppable tank ball and denied it easily. Again, missile turrets (and good building placement) prevented me from harassing, and I suddenly felt way behind. He also had a ton of vikings which along with turrets and some marines shut down my air pretty hard.
Also I played TheWarbler previously and killed him with air because he didn't get vikings. Vikings:GOOD!!! Don't worry about your tank count, since the difference between 20 tanks and 25 tanks is nil when you could have 20 tanks and 6-8 vikings.
So how it feels for a protoss to play a meching terran: Frustrating, misleading, feeling like I could beat it, absolutely cannot engage his army on the ground. So, yeah. The makings of a good strategy. Good luck!
EDIT: Also, denying my scout was CRUCIAL. I didn't bother going heavy robo because I knew immortals would still die like anything else, so I only had one observer out at a time, and Warbler was really good about scanning that and killing it, fast. I often didn't know where his army was or how big it was (really really big).
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Enig I would love to play u again cause you are a wicked sick protoss. A refined 4gate/2gate robo can be hard to deal with.
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Thanks, Warbler. I just hit diamond division rank 1 (2900) today on a huge win streak ^^ so I'm feeling pretty good about my play right now. My code is 513; add me, we'll play.
If I were to go up again I'd put more early pressure on, expand earlier, and get way more phoenixes to take air superiority, with voids only after the viking count was down. Also more aggressive harass. I've broken a few terrans who only put up one bunker just by rallying my first units to his base while I expanded.
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My stream will be down until I can figure this new xsplit program out so the quality is much better.
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I dont get how they say zerg is super hard compared to terran. As zerg all you need to do is make banelings and keep up spawn larva and you beat terran bio easy. I used to play zerg I know.
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On February 04 2011 09:45 TheWarbler wrote:
I dont get how they say zerg is super hard compared to terran. As zerg all you need to do is make banelings and keep up spawn larva and you beat terran bio easy. I used to play zerg I know.
Make banelings and beat bio, bio mech, mech...I hate those things.
Does is happen to you with mech to trade armies of thors+a few marines/ tanks/ hellions with baneling/ speedling muta? I feel like when i have enough tanks/ thors/ hellions to move out Zerg already has the map.
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Is your stream still down I haven't seen it online recently...?
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On February 04 2011 09:50 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 09:45 TheWarbler wrote:
I dont get how they say zerg is super hard compared to terran. As zerg all you need to do is make banelings and keep up spawn larva and you beat terran bio easy. I used to play zerg I know. Make banelings and beat bio, bio mech, mech...I hate those things. Does is happen to you with mech to trade armies of thors+a few marines/ tanks/ hellions with baneling/ speedling muta? I feel like when i have enough tanks/ thors/ hellions to move out Zerg already has the map.
The difficulty i have with using mech vs zerg is the creep allowing them to see your army the instant you move out... plus with the maneuverability of ling/bling/muta its just so hard to keep all of your mech ball protected at once :S
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Ive been meching in every TvZ/P matchup for awhile now. Currently 2.2k Masters. Here are my thoughts atm against z.
Against Z, you need a single raven at least before pushing. Incase they go burrow roaches (cant/dont want to really spam scans) and also get rid of those annoying maphax o i mean creep tumours. So against ling/bling/muta you really need to use the scan to see where they are. So it gives you an idea of how to position your tanks.
Usually the mech composition will be hellion/tank/thor and then later vikings incase they go broodlords which some do by gimping on their ground forces during mid game. Ive noticed that by adding maybe 10~12 vikings for a big death ball push, against Z comps like roach/hydra/ling, roach/infestor (anything without BLs) etc those vikings can be used to kill off OLs during the battle since those are always clumped up at the Z nat. Maybe supply block the Z for a short while. If your ground army dies, it buys you time to rebuild, if you barely win the battle then you can atleast take out one base.
Ive thought about getting more ravens with HSM since those would take out BLs and any Z air shenanigans but its too way too gas heavy (maybe on 4 bases might be worth trying instead of getting vikings).
Also id like to mention, just like the OP had emphasized.. HARASS is the key to all mech play. You gotta spam every harass possible from the T arsenal. Im talking hellion raids, cloaked banshees, tank cliff drops and if they mass spines get nukes (this ive yet to try since those Z players who adapted my mech style get 4 spines per base for obvious reasons). This is a must every game, and not just once, gotta do it the entire time. So basically even during the death ball push, sending 4 hellions to Z 4th base or 3rd is a good idea.
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What's the accepted definition of mech? Just something out from the factory? Minus hellions? When people talk mech they seem to use the term lightly. Most often it has a lot of air units (vikings, ravens?) and, bio (marines). The term mech feels like "not pure bio (MMM[V])" right now.
While this (MTV) might be an obvious way to beat the opponent and reacting to what they make in that game, it's not what I thought mech meant. I understand having support units thrown in here and there, but not more than a few (5? 10?) of those and *I* am not comfortable calling it mech.
When I read all 10 pages of this thread, I was under the assumption people we going to explore hardcore/pure mech (or if there is a better term, do let me know). Just hellions, tanks, thors. Explore that to its fullest. It's clear air is a weakness, but unless its carriers and perhaps BCs, I've seen/used higher thor counts decimate void rays and brood lords. And with constant scouting, you can jump the opponent when he is transitioning to these units because its a bump and not a smooth transition for thine enemy.
I still do appreciate this thread and the OP's efforts to move away from pure bio, but if its just that, perhaps mech isnt the right term. I guess its been around long in its current state (I'm not a BW player either, did it start way back then?), so perhaps we need to start using "pure mech" to mean "mech" and have "mech" mean "mechport" 
Edit: Forgot to mention that I've observed that other people were only comfortable calling this "biomech". I guess I've just expanded their discomfort in this post.
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^ I've always felt "mech" to mean any unit that can be repaired by an SCV, rather than healed by medivacs. Though I agree that a distinction should be made, especially when it comes to starport units.
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I've always liked Banshees as a good complement to Thors in TvP and TvZ. I don't really use them as harrassment as much as I probably should but they're high dps, mobile, and do well against the immortals and roaches people like to use against Thor-centric armies. I think you still want cloak so you can escape the mutas and stalkers if your thor ball gets eaten. I'm not sure that you want Banshees if you're getting a lot of tanks but if you are going for a more mobile composition they give you some balance, reach, and more harrassment potential.
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EPT
