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This thread was renamed from "Becomming a mech terran" |
i really love mech play. in TvZ 2-3 factories lategame TvP sometimes more than 1 factory and in TvT about 4-5 factories lategame with 1/2 barracks :p
so mech play is definatly BEAST
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On January 30 2011 02:33 QQmonster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 02:06 Dente wrote:On January 30 2011 01:52 BKSandland wrote:On January 30 2011 01:27 Dente wrote:On January 30 2011 00:15 Zacsafus wrote:
Is it just me or does it seem quite depressing that protoss late game seems so dominant that even protoss dont know what beats them aside from not letting them get to the late game.
Its very depressing. Not a single protoss could give me advice what to do. Some tried and these were the best (lol): - drop more (while I am dropping the whole game, but they just defend with cannons and HT and some zealots while they make an unbeatable 200/200 army). - go mech (believe me guys, mech is great in the lower levels, but around 3k master it's just not good enough. It only works if your opponent is stupid enough to run into your bunkers or after a fail 4gate (*cough* mc vs jinro *cough*). Every toss knows that they are actually unbeatable, unless they fuck up very hard and if the terran is playing realy realy well (drops everywhere with alot of luck and alot of apm). An early allin or a mistake by the protoss (like a fail 4gate or a fail voidray bust) is the only way to win imo. Drops are great, but it's VERY lotto-style play. I really would like to see a replay where a terran wins @ lategame where the toss didn't fuck up very hard... It's also funny that protoss players still claim that terran is OP. I understand that early game is hard for protoss, but it's very even when you make use of proper forcefields. Sorry, but you shouldnt be allowed to post on these forums. Every post is about "uhh this is high level mech play, look how toss owns him herp derp" Yeah, talking about the quality of someone's post while your post is even worse. This is a mech discussion. The purpose of it is to DISCUSS. Discuss = both positive points and negative points. I'm explaining why mech is NOT viable. So many people are theorycrafting. Do I really have to post about "uhh mech is so great, it's so viable, look to jinro vs mc herp derp"? You didn't discuss anything, you just basically said mech wasn't viable when it clearly is.
And your evidence?
Replays, statistics, etc.?
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Heavy mech TvP and TvT is very viable I have some of my replays posted in the main post.
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On January 30 2011 07:05 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 02:33 QQmonster wrote:On January 30 2011 02:06 Dente wrote:On January 30 2011 01:52 BKSandland wrote:On January 30 2011 01:27 Dente wrote:On January 30 2011 00:15 Zacsafus wrote:
Is it just me or does it seem quite depressing that protoss late game seems so dominant that even protoss dont know what beats them aside from not letting them get to the late game.
Its very depressing. Not a single protoss could give me advice what to do. Some tried and these were the best (lol): - drop more (while I am dropping the whole game, but they just defend with cannons and HT and some zealots while they make an unbeatable 200/200 army). - go mech (believe me guys, mech is great in the lower levels, but around 3k master it's just not good enough. It only works if your opponent is stupid enough to run into your bunkers or after a fail 4gate (*cough* mc vs jinro *cough*). Every toss knows that they are actually unbeatable, unless they fuck up very hard and if the terran is playing realy realy well (drops everywhere with alot of luck and alot of apm). An early allin or a mistake by the protoss (like a fail 4gate or a fail voidray bust) is the only way to win imo. Drops are great, but it's VERY lotto-style play. I really would like to see a replay where a terran wins @ lategame where the toss didn't fuck up very hard... It's also funny that protoss players still claim that terran is OP. I understand that early game is hard for protoss, but it's very even when you make use of proper forcefields. Sorry, but you shouldnt be allowed to post on these forums. Every post is about "uhh this is high level mech play, look how toss owns him herp derp" Yeah, talking about the quality of someone's post while your post is even worse. This is a mech discussion. The purpose of it is to DISCUSS. Discuss = both positive points and negative points. I'm explaining why mech is NOT viable. So many people are theorycrafting. Do I really have to post about "uhh mech is so great, it's so viable, look to jinro vs mc herp derp"? You didn't discuss anything, you just basically said mech wasn't viable when it clearly is. And your evidence? Replays, statistics, etc.?
there are lots of replays available, stop being lazy and do a search. The most popular example is jinro vs MC in the GSL
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You guys are really starting to piss me off. I start the thread to dicuss about the style. But you turning this into a this will never work thing and that is not the point of the thread.
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On January 30 2011 07:40 TheWarbler wrote:
You guys are really starting to piss me off. I start the thread to dicuss about the style. But you turning this into a this will never work thing and that is not the point of the thread.
Dont let them get you down man i think your thread is great and that mech has the possiblility of becoming a much more refined play style, stick to it and see where it goes.
Also im trying to get more tanks into my play but this cuts down on antiair so ive been trying out a sc bw slow push style with turrets and depot walls. Ill get some replays for you once i get down the gameflow and feel more comfortable with my pushing/positioning.
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Just PM me the replays and I will throw them into the thread.
I no1 will ever get me down mech is amazing.!
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good luck. the current meta is such a highly aggressive game that if you can manage to negate that and come out ahead, mech can certainly become the future.
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Can do.
@Terranist: I agree the first step to playing a defensive style is to survive. 3Gate Robo with immortals and 3gate stargate with voidrays are going to be the hardest to stop.
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As a new Terran I'm looking for a play style that is viable in all 3 match ups...so I can focus on improving my mechanics moreso than my unit comp and decision making. Unfortunately I don't care much for MMM play.
Playing mech has been fun so far! But the biggest problem I've run into is that I never know how many factories I should make. Yes I can calculate the # of factories I can afford to continuously produce from very easily. However I've found that I often want extra production capacity because it takes so long for mech to remax. I feel this is the main thing holding me back in TvZ and TvT. TvP hasnt been too big of a problem because the only thing they can remax quickly with are gateway units, which get absolutely destroyed by my mech. How many "extra" factories do you make? And if none, how do you deal with 300 food pushes? (other than the obvious harass more, don't let the opponent get there)
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On January 30 2011 04:27 Blyadischa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 04:18 TheWarbler wrote:On January 30 2011 03:08 Blyadischa wrote:
The only thing that worries me is using recall from a mothership. Sensor towers and vikings. But you see, vikings are detrimental to the anti gateway force that you want to make, because you want the protoss to max out on gateway units, terran loses vs carriers/ht late game, so I proposed that to mech you must just not get anti air (except for turrets here and there for warp prisms) and focus on making protoss max on gateway units, and just roll over them. Without vikings, then you can owned by motherships.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but you're assuming too much... Why would the protoss ever stick to gateway units when teching is in large part what beats mech? Turrets won't protect you from colossi or any serious stargate play. You want a ton of turrets, yes, but that's mostly to suppliment your vikings, deny observers and deter drops and DTs.
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Huge props to the warbler for seriously taking a crack at trying to work terran mech out systematically. I really want to play mech as a style, however it increasingly feels like even with a large harassment advantage from hellions it's an uphill battle.
At the moment mech is very strong once two things are true. Firstly, if your army will actually beat the enemy army. This is where mech is supposed to be most powerful, as it trades away mobility and strategic flexibility for raw power. Mech's issue is that it feels like it's not strong enough for all the advantages it trades away, and you actually need to do a lot of damage to the enemy economy to make this first condition happen. Also the sheer number of tanks needed for a critical mass is so large it precludes holding more than one, at most two locations in any way.
The second condition is when you can be defensive, and still win. There are a few ways to go about doing this, such as setting up a hard contain outside the enemy natural and taking many bases around the map, or being a passive macro player and simply out-macroing your opponent while they cannot hurt you. This should be the reason why mech is hard, since you have to play in an unshakably stable manner in order to make mech work. The enemy should be forced to drop you, to harass you, to chew on you a bite at a time since they can't just bumrush you or they will be crushed.
The problem is that this second condition is somewhat meaningless if game-equivalent supply of mech can actually just be overrun and destroyed outright (mech armies will be smaller somewhat). I've done it with marine marauder, protoss and zerg can do it with their low tech units. It is depressing to do, and equally depressing to have done to you. For all their weaknesses tanks deserve more straight up combat power. It shouldn't be an option to straight up assault a well entrenched tank line. In the Jinro vs MC game, + Show Spoiler +MC showed it can actually work out alright for the protoss even if he's already far behind.
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I go mech every MU as T I mean pure mech no infantry at all
Mech works really good vs Zerg
Mech vs Terran is if man this is the hardest MU to mech imo but its still strong, but it seems like a small MMM drop can cause huge dgm cause how slow tanks are, but still good
mech vs Protoss is my favorite I personally like going Tank/Hellion/Viking heavy vs colo/gw units I add Thors if needed in certain things like carriers/vr with a mix of vikings of course
Mech does work imo it's just harder to execute properly right now, but nothing stronger to harrase with blue flame hellions 2 one shot all workers
BTW 3 gate robo or Star is easy to stop basically this is my build order
Same build order as 1-1-1
2 rines
Fact
add reactor
2 rines + hellion
exp around 28ish
Scout with Hellion most of the time you will be able to scout properly with a Hellion
Basically if they go exp no need for bunker if they going for 1 base play just mass rine from that 1 rax while pumping tanks make 2 bunkers + turret you will be able to hold 3 gate star / or robo builds placing your tanks properly matters a lot
that 3rd 50 energy if you scout with Hellion just use it for a Mule
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Thank you ledarsi I really think mech can be as strong as it is in BW with the right play. I am gonna be using it in the Zeek tourney in 9min so wish me luck haha.
I play a defensive style of mech. It fits me well and allows my macro to win the game for me.
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On January 30 2011 07:25 QQmonster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 07:05 Fruscainte wrote:On January 30 2011 02:33 QQmonster wrote:On January 30 2011 02:06 Dente wrote:On January 30 2011 01:52 BKSandland wrote:On January 30 2011 01:27 Dente wrote:On January 30 2011 00:15 Zacsafus wrote:
Is it just me or does it seem quite depressing that protoss late game seems so dominant that even protoss dont know what beats them aside from not letting them get to the late game.
Its very depressing. Not a single protoss could give me advice what to do. Some tried and these were the best (lol): - drop more (while I am dropping the whole game, but they just defend with cannons and HT and some zealots while they make an unbeatable 200/200 army). - go mech (believe me guys, mech is great in the lower levels, but around 3k master it's just not good enough. It only works if your opponent is stupid enough to run into your bunkers or after a fail 4gate (*cough* mc vs jinro *cough*). Every toss knows that they are actually unbeatable, unless they fuck up very hard and if the terran is playing realy realy well (drops everywhere with alot of luck and alot of apm). An early allin or a mistake by the protoss (like a fail 4gate or a fail voidray bust) is the only way to win imo. Drops are great, but it's VERY lotto-style play. I really would like to see a replay where a terran wins @ lategame where the toss didn't fuck up very hard... It's also funny that protoss players still claim that terran is OP. I understand that early game is hard for protoss, but it's very even when you make use of proper forcefields. Sorry, but you shouldnt be allowed to post on these forums. Every post is about "uhh this is high level mech play, look how toss owns him herp derp" Yeah, talking about the quality of someone's post while your post is even worse. This is a mech discussion. The purpose of it is to DISCUSS. Discuss = both positive points and negative points. I'm explaining why mech is NOT viable. So many people are theorycrafting. Do I really have to post about "uhh mech is so great, it's so viable, look to jinro vs mc herp derp"? You didn't discuss anything, you just basically said mech wasn't viable when it clearly is. And your evidence? Replays, statistics, etc.? there are lots of replays available, stop being lazy and do a search. The most popular example is jinro vs MC in the GSL
First, there are not a lot of replays available of top level mech play.
Also, stop mentioning Jinro vs MC because thats not enough evidence. Also you could read
On January 30 2011 01:27 Dente wrote:
- go mech (believe me guys, mech is great in the lower levels, but around 3k master it's just not good enough. It only works if your opponent is stupid enough to run into your bunkers or after a fail 4gate (*cough* mc vs jinro *cough*).
Thats the only reason Jinro won. MC did'nt play nearly as good as Jinro did and made a ton of mistakes.
Why don't you do some research and give us some replays?
(im talking about many (because u said lots) of replays at very high lvl)
Because i can give u a replay of Goody, who is an extremely talented player that has been doing Mech since ever getting raped by Naniwa
I think Bio Mech has much more future in TvP. Mainly MarineTank.
Even tho marines are extremely fragile lategame vs Protoss. They can be massproduced and act as supports for the tanks.
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I don't care what haters say, Mech is viable in TvP. Yeah MC didn't play exactly how he should have vs Mech or whatnot I don't care the simple fact it beat him is enough to prove it to me because winning at all in sc2 involves you doing X strategy and your opponent not reacting correctly to it or you doing X strategy and your opponent doing Y strategy and yours comes out on top.
Guess what nobody plays perfectly NOBODY. Flash still has idle SCVs in BW ffs. Yeah sc2 is a bit dumbed down but still nobody plays perfectly.
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On January 30 2011 11:09 Reptilia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 07:25 QQmonster wrote:On January 30 2011 07:05 Fruscainte wrote:On January 30 2011 02:33 QQmonster wrote:On January 30 2011 02:06 Dente wrote:On January 30 2011 01:52 BKSandland wrote:On January 30 2011 01:27 Dente wrote:On January 30 2011 00:15 Zacsafus wrote:
Is it just me or does it seem quite depressing that protoss late game seems so dominant that even protoss dont know what beats them aside from not letting them get to the late game.
Its very depressing. Not a single protoss could give me advice what to do. Some tried and these were the best (lol): - drop more (while I am dropping the whole game, but they just defend with cannons and HT and some zealots while they make an unbeatable 200/200 army). - go mech (believe me guys, mech is great in the lower levels, but around 3k master it's just not good enough. It only works if your opponent is stupid enough to run into your bunkers or after a fail 4gate (*cough* mc vs jinro *cough*). Every toss knows that they are actually unbeatable, unless they fuck up very hard and if the terran is playing realy realy well (drops everywhere with alot of luck and alot of apm). An early allin or a mistake by the protoss (like a fail 4gate or a fail voidray bust) is the only way to win imo. Drops are great, but it's VERY lotto-style play. I really would like to see a replay where a terran wins @ lategame where the toss didn't fuck up very hard... It's also funny that protoss players still claim that terran is OP. I understand that early game is hard for protoss, but it's very even when you make use of proper forcefields. Sorry, but you shouldnt be allowed to post on these forums. Every post is about "uhh this is high level mech play, look how toss owns him herp derp" Yeah, talking about the quality of someone's post while your post is even worse. This is a mech discussion. The purpose of it is to DISCUSS. Discuss = both positive points and negative points. I'm explaining why mech is NOT viable. So many people are theorycrafting. Do I really have to post about "uhh mech is so great, it's so viable, look to jinro vs mc herp derp"? You didn't discuss anything, you just basically said mech wasn't viable when it clearly is. And your evidence? Replays, statistics, etc.? there are lots of replays available, stop being lazy and do a search. The most popular example is jinro vs MC in the GSL First, there are not a lot of replays available of top level mech play. Also, stop mentioning Jinro vs MC because thats not enough evidence. Also you could read Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 01:27 Dente wrote:
- go mech (believe me guys, mech is great in the lower levels, but around 3k master it's just not good enough. It only works if your opponent is stupid enough to run into your bunkers or after a fail 4gate (*cough* mc vs jinro *cough*).
Thats the only reason Jinro won. MC did'nt play nearly as good as Jinro did and made a ton of mistakes. Why don't you do some research and give us some replays? (im talking about many (because u said lots) of replays at very high lvl) Because i can give u a replay of Goody, who is an extremely talented player that has been doing Mech since ever getting raped by Naniwa I think Bio Mech has much more future in TvP. Mainly MarineTank. Even tho marines are extremely fragile lategame vs Protoss. They can be massproduced and act as supports for the tanks.
Bio Mech I'd say is weaker than just Bio or just Mech because it's more costly plus you have the weaknesses of both without having all the strengths.
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I agree. Bio mech is stronger in TvZ then opening right into mech.
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On January 30 2011 11:21 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 11:09 Reptilia wrote:On January 30 2011 07:25 QQmonster wrote:On January 30 2011 07:05 Fruscainte wrote:On January 30 2011 02:33 QQmonster wrote:On January 30 2011 02:06 Dente wrote:On January 30 2011 01:52 BKSandland wrote:On January 30 2011 01:27 Dente wrote:On January 30 2011 00:15 Zacsafus wrote:
Is it just me or does it seem quite depressing that protoss late game seems so dominant that even protoss dont know what beats them aside from not letting them get to the late game.
Its very depressing. Not a single protoss could give me advice what to do. Some tried and these were the best (lol): - drop more (while I am dropping the whole game, but they just defend with cannons and HT and some zealots while they make an unbeatable 200/200 army). - go mech (believe me guys, mech is great in the lower levels, but around 3k master it's just not good enough. It only works if your opponent is stupid enough to run into your bunkers or after a fail 4gate (*cough* mc vs jinro *cough*). Every toss knows that they are actually unbeatable, unless they fuck up very hard and if the terran is playing realy realy well (drops everywhere with alot of luck and alot of apm). An early allin or a mistake by the protoss (like a fail 4gate or a fail voidray bust) is the only way to win imo. Drops are great, but it's VERY lotto-style play. I really would like to see a replay where a terran wins @ lategame where the toss didn't fuck up very hard... It's also funny that protoss players still claim that terran is OP. I understand that early game is hard for protoss, but it's very even when you make use of proper forcefields. Sorry, but you shouldnt be allowed to post on these forums. Every post is about "uhh this is high level mech play, look how toss owns him herp derp" Yeah, talking about the quality of someone's post while your post is even worse. This is a mech discussion. The purpose of it is to DISCUSS. Discuss = both positive points and negative points. I'm explaining why mech is NOT viable. So many people are theorycrafting. Do I really have to post about "uhh mech is so great, it's so viable, look to jinro vs mc herp derp"? You didn't discuss anything, you just basically said mech wasn't viable when it clearly is. And your evidence? Replays, statistics, etc.? there are lots of replays available, stop being lazy and do a search. The most popular example is jinro vs MC in the GSL First, there are not a lot of replays available of top level mech play. Also, stop mentioning Jinro vs MC because thats not enough evidence. Also you could read On January 30 2011 01:27 Dente wrote:
- go mech (believe me guys, mech is great in the lower levels, but around 3k master it's just not good enough. It only works if your opponent is stupid enough to run into your bunkers or after a fail 4gate (*cough* mc vs jinro *cough*).
Thats the only reason Jinro won. MC did'nt play nearly as good as Jinro did and made a ton of mistakes. Why don't you do some research and give us some replays? (im talking about many (because u said lots) of replays at very high lvl) Because i can give u a replay of Goody, who is an extremely talented player that has been doing Mech since ever getting raped by Naniwa I think Bio Mech has much more future in TvP. Mainly MarineTank. Even tho marines are extremely fragile lategame vs Protoss. They can be massproduced and act as supports for the tanks. Bio Mech I'd say is weaker than just Bio or just Mech because it's more costly plus you have the weaknesses of both without having all the strengths.
true, besides being able to outrange his army/cannons in a contain situation, biomech doesnt have significantly more firepower than pure bio, but all the bio severly suffers from the immobility that comes with tank play and also thors if u decide to go thor/bio.
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On January 30 2011 11:17 Raiznhell wrote:
I don't care what haters say, Mech is viable in TvP at the lower levels where protoss players do not know how to destroy it.
I edited your post so it is a true one. And I'm not a mech hater. I'm a bio hater. I hate it that I have to use the boring MMM every time again and again. I tried to make mech work so hard. I played mech for months. I tried every combination (thor, tank, hellion, viking), I tried even pure thor, which worked great against tosses who didn't know how to beat it. I beated 3k+ masters with mech who reacted wrong. Some even said that mech is OP. The good tosses adviced me to stop meching. A top 100 protoss once said "if you go mech I just know 100% that I will win".
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EPT
