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This thread was renamed from "Becomming a mech terran" |
On January 30 2011 19:00 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 11:17 Raiznhell wrote:
I don't care what haters say, Mech is viable in TvP at the lower levels where protoss players do not know how to destroy it. I edited your post so it is a true one. And I'm not a mech hater. I'm a bio hater. I hate it that I have to use the boring MMM every time again and again. I tried to make mech work so hard. I played mech for months. I tried every combination (thor, tank, hellion, viking), I tried even pure thor, which worked great against tosses who didn't know how to beat it. I beated 3k+ masters with mech who reacted wrong. Some even said that mech is OP. The good tosses adviced me to stop meching. A top 100 protoss once said "if you go mech I just know 100% that I will win".
and he was wrong.....
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Awesome initiative. As a zerg player I've been finding myself drawn to the mech style of play because I think the macro style is much better suited for my style than the bio all-ins or w/e that we've seen so much in the past. Definately gonna start messing around with terran as my off-race and also check out ur replays (the 1st link u posted on TvZ isn't working btw) and try and catch ur stream, however the time difference from europe might make that hard.
Anyway, just wanna encourage u to keep it up and thank you for this.
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No problem man, I'm just glad I can actually help some people.
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Your first TvZ replay link has oilers] in the middle of the link.
I downloaded the majority. I've been playing Mech but haven't been able to stop a Z from just mass expanding. This should be useful to watch.
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I just started using 2rax fe and moving into Reactor Hellions Stim marines tank and thors. Its been working well. Try push out before he takes his third or right when he dose it
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Yea remember that trying to get more tanks in my mech by slow pushing with turrets instead of thors/vikings as my anitair?
Protoss destroy that.
They see you massing tanks they either dt drop mass void rays/phenoix/immortals and they use the void rays range to keep you from making supply depots and such. So you do need thors and vikings to fight toss 
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I don't see any reason to pure mech, I don't think it will ever be as good as biomech. Maybe in lategame TvZ on a small map. But on those maps you usually open some bio play anyway.
Hellions harrass is way too easy to shut down in any matchup, and T gets destroyed lategame TvZ and TvP. You need to do damage with hellions, and chances are big you won't. Biomech will make life easier for you 
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Mech is way under used, just make sure you have medivacs to give you a huge boost in mobility, plus mech drops can take out key buildings very fast. Also you will need to have scvs around your army at all time.
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How do you deal with mass expanding Zergs when playing mech? I always have problems with putting pressure on my opponent.
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The downside to mech is it lacks strong anti-air. Thors are good but only against light air units. This is a disadvantage that Brood War mech did not share thanks to Goliaths. Mixing Vikings into the mix may well work but they are expensive and relatively fragile and will cut into your tank count.
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I use mech as well but the weak anti-air is an obvious downside. Carriers beat mech, VR beats mech, broodlords and mutalisks beat mech. I think mech needs a strong anti-air unit like the classic goliath with high range and damage, hope the expansion gives mech the goliath (I mean they're in campaign although they dont seem that strong in campaign). Ghosts and marines are a good supplement though.
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I don't really understand why most players don't think enough about the combination of playstyles. Terrans mostly have Bio and Mech, so why not combine them effectively?
At the moment i'm having a lot of fun and success in upper Diamond/lower Master with Marine/Thor/Medivac Stim Timing Pushes from 2 bases, mostly against Protoss, though not really being a Terran player.
Against Zerg i like to add some more Marauders to the mix, as they're better against Baneling or Roach.
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In TvZ I open 2rax fe. Once i get about 7-8 Marines I put some pressure on forceing the zerg to use larva on lings and not drones. Then I drop 2 factories in base 1 reactor 1 tech. Also drop another barracks and add reactor and tech lab to other barracks. Then mech a make with marines tank and hellions while I take my third.
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ye if you go pure mecha its problem AA ...agenst zerg you can pull out some thors but you also need at leest one starport for vikings...to conter brodlords...
when you go pure mecha one of best things is hellions harasment but you can build group of 6 .7 heliions and burn all workers.. of oponent...
one more thing you can build sensor tovers and misle turets wholl over map for case of oponent have some air unites..
sensor tower are great becous it give you a vision where you can see everything (what hepens on map) i dont see plenty ppl using them but they are great if you go mecha build...
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On January 30 2011 07:40 TheWarbler wrote:
You guys are really starting to piss me off. I start the thread to dicuss about the style. But you turning this into a this will never work thing and that is not the point of the thread.
lol dude this happened to me too in my Mech Replay thread XD
So many people are just non-believers.
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On January 30 2011 19:00 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 11:17 Raiznhell wrote:
I don't care what haters say, Mech is viable in TvP at the lower levels where protoss players do not know how to destroy it. I edited your post so it is a true one. And I'm not a mech hater. I'm a bio hater. I hate it that I have to use the boring MMM every time again and again. I tried to make mech work so hard. I played mech for months. I tried every combination (thor, tank, hellion, viking), I tried even pure thor, which worked great against tosses who didn't know how to beat it. I beated 3k+ masters with mech who reacted wrong. Some even said that mech is OP. The good tosses adviced me to stop meching. A top 100 protoss once said "if you go mech I just know 100% that I will win".
So your saying the Top Koreans don't know how to destroy it? Because Jinro said he was using Mech in his ladders against the top 200 Koreans and was coming out victorious more often than not.
You say things like it's as simple as just mass expanding and getting this and that unit but I'm pretty sure if it's that simple for you to think up a countermeasure that wins 100% I'm pretty sure a top korean pro could to.
Even if it was in-game and he scouted with his observer a bunch of tanks, the top korean pro is not gunna be like OMG I've never seen this before what ever shall I do!!??
1) because Mech is not a new strategy it's been around since beginning of beta.
2) Mech is immobile giving him plenty of time to whip out his auto-win counter measure you seem to think exists.
Just because you lose a lot with Mech doesn't mean it's a bad strategy maybe you should be posting reps and asking for help instead of saying it's impossible. All the proof I've seen of it not working from you is Goody and Strelock vs Nani but Nani is really friggin good and better than those players and he just outplays them in all aspects.
If the maps were bigger which they will be THEN Mech will probably not be viable at all however I'm sure once the maps get bigger there's gunna be more patches as I doubt anyone would disagree that Zerg would be damn unstoppable on huge maps what with everything being balanced so that Zerg can withstand rushes on small maps and mass expand. Blizzard would be out of their minds not to buff Factory units once the bigger maps are out.
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I've been watching some BW nowadays, it is really much more fun to watch because of longer maps..Hope GSL gets better with bigger maps.
Anyway, from what I can see from BW games, tanks are protected by vulture spider mines from zealots, while dragoons are dealt by tanks. What can protect tanks in SC2 from zealots? I'm thinking helions, but even though they deal great damage to zealots, they die like flies before doing anything. I have thought Auto Turrets, but they don't seem to deal enough damage to fend off zealots in that way.
Perhaps a pack of Marauders with Concussive Shells to slow down the units in front line and demolish Stalkers should be the best option. Or Thors in front of Tanks. Thors can take quite a beating.
There is also the problem of Blink Stalkers, but for that I think Raven PDDs with energy upgrade should be good, but in any case you need to reposition your tanks when they blink on top of you, which is really a not good situation for the tanks.
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I have a serious idea of a mech build against toss. Typically you will end up with lots of tanks/vikings for this matchup mixing in bio/helion/thors to try and buy time for your tanks and vikings.
I propose an idea for the situation where u are 2-3 bases and toss is roughly the same. We all know mech has more mins and to little gas, hence bio and helion in the mix. Why not when you plan to move out with ur 15 tanks or whatever you lead with 2 floating rax. The idea is you land the rax to form a new choke, maybe block off a direction, maybe to decrease the approach side. If you can get 2 rax infront then chargelots are way less effective. If they decide to go around, it takes quite a while with immortals. Realize 2 rax are only 300 mins, meaning if this new choke lets you kill 3 extra zealots, or 2 stalkers, or 1 immortal, they have basically paid for themselves.
With your viking range you should be able to stop them poking at the rax with VR's or collosi without having stalkers get shelled. Tanks left alone are very dangerous, if this strat can allow 1 extra salvo from all 15 tanks, they have more than paid for themselves. It seems very effective for sieging up an expansion. I would even purpose this idea for zerg, but alas creep is op XD.
I hope to get some feedback on this idea, or have some people try it out in customs or something. I myself alreadyhave a hard time macro/micro'n my army and I typically go Thors/helion/bio myself. Good or bad let me know what you think, it doesn't seem like it could hurt you in any situation.
Edit* obviously this strat would have considerably different effectiveness based on map. and note if it works you could cut out some tank buffers like marines or helions for more tanks or vikings.
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Raiznhell you make a good point. While generally speaking I feel tanks are gimp, you make a good point that I do think they are possibly overpowered on a map like, say, Steppes of War. The current map pool is a huge factor. At the moment all the maps, with a few exceptions, are relatively small and with short rush distances so tanks may be balanced as they are currently considering the map pool as a whole. Once maps get bigger they will need a buff badly, but then many things will also need to change as the map pool experiences significant changes.
The issue is that on the larger maps tanks suck (as do thors to a less serious extent), and mech should be a macro style which is BEST on large maps with many bases. This may be a source of terran's late game troubles against zerg and protoss, as tiny maps don't become macro games as often, and then selection bias causes this possibility to be ignored.
However I feel the game should be map-agnostic in its balance. Blizzard seems to disagree, or they are getting around to it and will patch as maps are added until the map pool is so large and diverse that eventually the game is balanced on all (reasonable) possible maps.
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EPT
