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This thread was renamed from "Becomming a mech terran" |
On January 28 2011 16:13 heyyouyesyou wrote:
No problem. You might also want to make supply depot walls in your natural on the more open maps like xelnaga for your tanks to hide behind.
Yes I started thinking the same thing.
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i don't even understand, why most people go for a crazy fast exp, before 5 min, under that time you are still saturating your main, i think it's silly to go fast with fe(at least for terran), best time for expand is 6-7 minute for terran, try it....
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On January 29 2011 01:12 Garmer wrote: i don't even understand, why most people go for a crazy fast exp, before 5 min, under that time you are still saturating your main, i think it's silly to go fast with fe(at least for terran), best time for expand is 6-7 minute for terran, try it....
While that is true, you are disregarding the impact of having double the scv production from 5 to 7 minutes, and the effect of having an additional OC for two minutes.
It is not all about saturation.
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On January 29 2011 01:12 Garmer wrote: i don't even understand, why most people go for a crazy fast exp, before 5 min, under that time you are still saturating your main, i think it's silly to go fast with fe(at least for terran), best time for expand is 6-7 minute for terran, try it....
getting a fast cc means twice the scv production and quicker critical mass of units.
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Dont forget how nice it is to take a 3rd gas to help with Tank and thor production.
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yeah, i know that is not only a matter of saturation, but you also can have more problem if your opponent make some kinda of rush(hidden proxy or something like that), i think vs toss is very risky...anyway, i'm not talking about delaying it too much, just 1-2 min
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Liked your game on shakuras. You can build more turrets around your bases with the excess minerals to stop possible void rays/ warp prism back stabs.
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On January 29 2011 01:47 Sapphire.lux wrote:Liked your game on shakuras. You can build more turrets around your bases with the excess minerals to stop possible void rays/ warp prism back stabs. Yea, some games I've gotten so much excess minerals that I just throw down more barracks but I've started thinking that more turrets and planetary fortresses all over the place would be much better. If i scout a lot of void rays, I just pop down like 2-3 more starports once I'm on 3-4 bases.
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On January 28 2011 08:50 avilo wrote: I'm glad more people are meching again. After I re-learned bio+viking TvP, the last 2 weeks I decided to bite the bullet and re-learn the mech style that I wrote a guide for ages ago, but more brood war style with a heavier emphasis on hellions, and it's working pretty damn well so far.
In beta, I mostly did mass tank with a few hellions every now and then, and vikings. But that was when tanks did their brood war damage so you could play brood war mass tank style and max out with almost all tanks + some vikings for air + ghosts.
Now though, a heavier hellion mech vs P definitely is viable. Lots of tanks + hellions, with reactored vikings for collosus/voids, and as the game goes on, adding in ghosts.
You do need marines for the entire early game, either off of a reactored barracks or 2 rax, but you eventually stop producing them for lots of hellions, or you can decide to keep constantly producing them off of a reactored barracks, at least for a while into mid-game. Then you don't need them after that, and you don't have to invest into stim/infantry upgrades.
I would keep playing mech! You can definitely mech TvT, in TvP a lot of new mech builds are popping up, as well as older ones from beta that are more refined, and TvZ mech is still viable, though I think in TvZ biomech with 3/3 bio + 3/0 tanks/thors is the standard and strongest possible play.
One thing I would advise if you are meching a lot in TvP - be careful when you build thors, if ever. You'll become really vulnerable to carrier switches if you make thors instead of vikings. And vs mass immortals...I don't think there's really a reason to get thors vs that. I do not really understand the thought process some players lately have had when they get 250 mm cannon/thors vs immortals.
Unless there is a critical mass of thors that can be reached that even demolishs gateway+immortals, if so then that is probably why.
Though, I can understand thors if they are massing phoenix or voids, or to beefen up a max ground vs ground army. In those cases, thors are awesome. But ghostmech is always better than adding in thors/250 vs mass immortals/templar imo.
And 2 vikings cost the same as 1 thor, the difference being if the protoss somehow stalls to carriers, an accumulated viking force can be there for carriers, whereas thors are terrible versus carriers, as well as hard to move around with your main army vs ground+carriers.
I must say this post made me happy. It makes me so excited to see people who did lots of meching back in the beta going back to it. Too much BW (if you can have too much that is) mech just has a special place in my heart. Avilo I would love to watch you streaming some tvp mech play.
I think your right about the thor thing in any mu where I get thors its either SURPRISE I have a thor or 1-2 thors are built just to force the enemy air units into spreading out.
Void Rays or phonexes that come in too clumped up will spell disaster for the toss player That thor only has to get 1-2 volleys off to become way more cost effective then the 1viking and 1 tank that you could of built. (you lose 1 tank because the factory produces a thor instead and a viking since the thor costs more your reactored port can only produce 1 viking that cycle)
+ Show Spoiler +The one thing that confused me about that game is goddy had the awesome oppurtunity for some early pressure but he backs of without seeing anything and Im trying to figure out why... even watching it from his camera view I can't tell...
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@TheWarbler: Have you tried a 1-1-1 cloaked banshee expand into marine/thor/banshee? Its a very powerful powerful unit composition that works well with each match up and cloaked banshees allow you to defend against roach allins/baneling busts, quick tank pushes, or 4gate allin. It can contain a toss or terran but against zerg i would stick to 1gas and skip cloak as 200 minerals/gas is a large investment to be nulified by mutas.
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I am not a big fan of banshees in my play. Dose not fit my Defensive style. Also takes to much gas that can be put into tanks. I find tanks effective in any matchup.
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Hey m8 who play terran try to use SIEGE TANKS + HELLIONS agenst protoss and also afective agenst zerg... Mass up siege tanks and mass hellions...(mass meens 10 and more) you will devestate protoss or zerg (zerglings and beinglings) try this mecha strategy ... alos agenst zerg try build some thors as well (zerg can go on mutas.)
one more thing be cerfull if toss go air.... that is only cance to win agenst seige + hellions...but try this strategy its great...
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On January 29 2011 09:14 bole wrote: Hey m8 who play terran try to use SIEGE TANKS + HELLIONS agenst protoss and also afective agenst zerg... Mass up siege tanks and mass hellions...(mass meens 10 and more) you will devestate protoss or zerg (zerglings and beinglings) try this mecha strategy ... alos agenst zerg try build some thors as well (zerg can go on mutas.)
one more thing be cerfull if toss go air.... that is only cance to win agenst seige + hellions...but try this strategy its great...
Actually if you go mainly siege tank + hellion you may be a little vunerable for mass blink stalkers, but I guess that b. stalkers are so rearely used against terran that it`s not much of a threat.
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On January 28 2011 02:31 Boundless wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 09:31 Autunno wrote:On January 27 2011 09:24 Boundless wrote:On January 27 2011 09:10 GrassEater wrote: I am starting a stream where i will make only immortals and voidrays. Do you want to play some games? This post made me lol. In all seriousness though, it's good to see at least some people willing to try mech. It's not for me because of my BW background with zerg, but I want to see it evolve in the metagame at least. Then we can get some bio/mech fake openings like oov was pulling off left and right back in the good old days..... I for one have been playing a lot of mech lately, only going for bio when I feel that the oponent made too many mistakes at the beginning, so I can finish him off fast. But I don`t think that evolve is the right word for it. This style of play simply does not suit most players, either for the units being too slow or for being much harder to execute properly, as it requires macroing skills AND smooth transitions so that you don`t die to timming atacks. And yeah, I`m looking forward to see some of your replays. No, it's definitely the right word. Right now the TvP and TvZ metagame has pretty much reduced to MMM and marine medivac tank, respectively. Sure, people try to mech on the ladder, but the world's top players simply don't do it. The metagame for T right now has really stagnated, and I've been saying this for quite a while. I see threads all over the place like MrBitter's Zerg tutorials, the gosucoaching podcasts where they talk almost exclusively about zerg play, and other things that point to the zerg metagame evolving and updating itself to deal with the latest things that P and T are throwing around. For crying out loud, after MKP made it to the gsl finals on pure cheese and 2rax, the top foreign and Korean zergs spent entire days finding the optimum response to it..... Together. I don't see any T conferences on how to play against phoenix/colossus or good timings to hit against a fast zerg third with early baneling speed. Every T thread on TL that I see (with the exception of this one) is full of whiners that moan about P lategame and mutas being overpowered. Ridiculous stuff. The metagame needs to go somewhere, or we'll be seeing 2rax scv allins forever. I dont think we want that, do we?
I agree with you =). I simply meant that many terran players will not go for it, simply because it's harder to execute than getting lots of barracs and medivacs, and will keep whinning on how HT are OP.
I do believe tho that the high level scene may change soon, but not all players will go for it (players like MVP and MKP love the mobility too much to go for it).
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i love how avilo had this internal crisis where his mech playstyle wasnt good and then just abandoned mech altogether, and then after the jinro games was like okay maybe mech is still good after all.
and to the other guy saying top terrans dont use mech in top tournaments... jinro isn't a top terran and GSL isn't a top tournament I suppose.
Seriously, jinro needs to learn2 plai and make more MMM amirite?
The key to mech is running around with hellions all game while building up tank numbers and expanding a lot. it's easy to force protoss into a defensive position all game, and then by the time they can attack they are walking into a wall of tanks + vikings.
For any protoss users struggling with beating mech, here's an idea.
This is a very specific situation, but if you open up with quick void rays (preferably 2 gate or 3 gate into stargate) you !FORCE! the meching terran to get a fast starport for vikings.
Now, any good terran will be able to defend your initial attack, BUT this is not where you win the game.
You win the game because he doesn't know if you're still making void rays or not, and has to constantly make vikings to be safe. This cut's into factory production CONSIDERABLY this early on in the game.
This means, you could make 2 void rays then just expand, and the terran will be contained spamming vikings. By the time he has a ground army to move out to his natural (depending on the map, obviously) you will be close to taking your third, or just massing up on whatever cheesy 2 base natural busting unit combo you feel like.
So in essence, an early seemingly all in stargate build is actually quite economic vs mech, as you end up getting your expansion up and running long before the terran, even though he builds it and has the OC sitting in his base for like 3 minutes. You'd at least end up even.
It's kind of like the fake double from sc:bw, you fake making a bunch of void rays, you poke with them, and then just expand and lol as the opponent is stuck in his base unable to move out.
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The issue as I see it is that EVERY game where a terran goes mech depends on a huge pickup where hellion harass kills dozens of probes. If that doesn't happen, terran is done. Mech isn't competitive unless you're already in a position of advantage. Siege tanks will simply get straight up beaten, as will thors. Now, if you do get such an advantage such as by good hellion harass, and you do manage to get your mech army up, it is highly survivable. You can win battles with few casualties and snowball the game in your favor.
So mech isn't useless. But it is definitely not a cost-competitive composition the way infantry is. Siege tanks and thors are strong, but for cost, for supply, and for all the strategic weaknesses such as immobility and weaknesses to air units, the factory's unit suite is just not as good as the barracks'.
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Out of all the replays I've watched of him, I don't think GOODY has ever won a game where he's gone for a pure mech style.
His macro is so bad (4 tanks queued all game long on every factory??) and his harrass is nonexistant. His decision making is also very questionable, in the replay you posted he built as if the opponent was going for a void ray rush but in reality the toss just went for a robo expand.. Obviously his scouting needs work as well.
I really like the guy for playing mech against good people, but damn. I wish he had about 100 more apm.
I also don't see why mech terran players make thors, ever, except maybe 1 or 2 just to soak up damage (this used to be better when you could have 2 thors being autorepaired to invincibility while your tanks destroyed everything, but this sadly got nerfed). I used to think it was good to take out immortals but there are better alternatives to cut their shields and then the tanks just demolish them.
The only situation where I would make thors (contrary to what avilo says - he's wrong) is against carriers. The tosses ground army is going to be sacrificed so you don't NEED the huge tank numbers to win outright, and more ground to air is very acceptable (and safe) along with the obvious mass vikings. The reason thors are good in this situation is because you already have 3+ factories with tech labs, and maybe not so many starports. Thors are also good at tanking interceptors while vikings blow holes in the carriers hull. It makes your army more flexible vs the wish-washy half ground half air combo of the protoss.
One thing I'm very scared of is that protosses will learn how to build and control motherships. A vortex on your tanks before you can snipe the mothership could leave your army defenseless. It reminds me of the lord of the rings - the two towers scene where aragorn is shouting for legolass to shoot down the orc with the torch before he can blow up the wall, but he isn't able to do it in time and the orc gets the vortex ... err I mean bomb off in time.
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