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Hello there =)
I am right now playing in Platinum, and have changed from Zerg to Random.
Now as I have played Zerg pretty long, I really like FE Openings. When I get Terran, I usually try a 1 Rax FE, and as I like Thors very much, I will get some Factories and pump em out 
I usually play with like 4 Barracks, 1 reactor, 3 tech lab, and 1 Fact for the Thors. In TvZ and TvP it works pretty well, but in TvT I usually lose to Siege Tank/Viking/Marine. I know, I could just play the same unit composition, but I dont really like Siege Tanks.
So here I have a replay, first off Id love everything you can tell me to improve my Terran, and secondly some advice what to play against Siege Tank/Viking/Marine, which beats me in this game (some drops involved too).
Hope you can help me =)
TheLast
Rep : http://www.mediafire.com/?3p2osuhqd2tzff8
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Watch the GSL MKP versus NaDa. I think you'll like what he does.
+ Show Spoiler +Mass Marines and Drops. Abuse Mobility
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I hate to break it to you but I think if you are on equal econ standing with your opponent, you pretty much have to go tank/viking in TvT or you will probably lose out, since there's no way MMM or thors can beat a critical mass of tanks. you might be able to win w/ some banshee/ viking mix if you can abuse their mobility relative to tanks and selectively engage his army to waste his scans, but I think your own tank/viking army is the de facto response. this is pretty much just like PvP where mid-late game becomes war of the worlds between colossi
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I for the longest time refused to use tanks myself... Now I have been forced to comply because I was getting stomped, what I do is Push out with 2 or 3 tanks, marines and a Viking. I try contain them to their natural and start to expand and move to other units I favor, like Thors and Banshees, and also some drops.
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simple bio vs mech play. Bio is much more mobile. Control the map (this may mean getting lots of vikings to hold the skies or getting viking clumps into thor range). Then do drops around the base to force the tanks to move.
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On January 21 2011 03:15 GinDo wrote:Watch the GSL MKP versus NaDa. I think you'll like what he does. + Show Spoiler +Mass Marines and Drops. Abuse Mobility
This is also how i like to play my TvT. The problem being it requires good macro and micro to really use it effectively.
Multiple drops, stutter stepping
Continueing to make units
Scouting where he is keeping his army.
Not overstimming.
People favor tank play because it feels a lot more "stable"
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if u dont like tvt, u can just go for a strong 3rax build that hits before cloaked banshees can be out. as a random player, tvt should only pop up every 9th game u play, so it shouldnt be too bad to take the easy way out.
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Recently, I saw a lot of pure mech play in TvT.
What it gives you is this:
- chance to end game immidiately with successful blue flam hellion harras
- hellions + 1-2 sieged tanks at ur main bassicly eliminate danger of drops (this is how you deal with mobility issues), since they eat marines
- thors are very good vs vikings and you dont need to fight for air dominance
- You go for mech upgrades only, which means, that later in the game you will be nearly always more cost efficient
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If there are seige tanks a couple of banshees if micro welled can easily take out a bunch of them and discourage them form massing more seige tanks. Then you can push with MMM and thors
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On January 21 2011 04:50 treehumper880 wrote:
If there are seige tanks a couple of banshees if micro welled can easily take out a bunch of them and discourage them form massing more seige tanks. Then you can push with MMM and thors
Yes, but this only works sometimes as a surprise strike since you can easily invest into cloaked banshees and run into raven or 1-2 well placed turrets and then you are behind immidiately.
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On January 21 2011 03:18 Mystgun wrote:
I hate to break it to you but I think if you are on equal econ standing with your opponent, you pretty much have to go tank/viking in TvT or you will probably lose out, since there's no way MMM or thors can beat a critical mass of tanks. you might be able to win w/ some banshee/ viking mix if you can abuse their mobility relative to tanks and selectively engage his army to waste his scans, but I think your own tank/viking army is the de facto response. this is pretty much just like PvP where mid-late game becomes war of the worlds between colossi
Tank/Viking loses to Bio/Tank hardcore at equal economy. It's an outdated strat except for really early pushes.
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On January 21 2011 03:15 GinDo wrote:Watch the GSL MKP versus NaDa. I think you'll like what he does. + Show Spoiler +Mass Marines and Drops. Abuse Mobility
While it is a good example of the 2 strats, these games aren't really good examples of how the 2 play against eachother. Both players managed to avoid large scale fights, where Nada would have won out with tanks. They both exchanged bases twice in this series, and if you notice on Shakuras Plateau (sp?), MKP ended up trying to go banshee instead of MM after they wiped out eachothers bases.
The straight MMM play in TvT would require much more proactive drop play. You cannot win large scale battles using MMM vs tanks.
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If you can keep Viking counts even and discourage aggression until the late game, you can win against Tank/Viking easily with BC/Viking, provided your Viking count is at least even to his (you'll make up the difference with Yamato Cannon). A lot of Terrans over-commit on Tanks, and a force of ~12-16 Vikings and 6 BCs will be pretty impossible to come back from. For this, you'll want to start with some Tanks to get him into the Tank/Viking war mindset, so he does not move out early, and then go with 3 Starports on preferably 3 bases (the 3rd is for gas, you have more than enough minerals from 2), 1 just doing nothing but pumping Vikings (and never stop), and make BCs from the 2 whenever you can.
Back when I was Plat, super early Banshee harass was pretty hard for most to deal with, so if you rush for cloaked Banshee (ie. gas before rax, fact immediately at 100 gas, 2nd gas, get tech lab on fact while building port, start a banshee and cloak immediately after flipping the two), you can win outright, as most Terrans rush for Tanks, and don't have an Engineering Bay by the time the Banshee arrives. Just play it safe with your Banshee until he's out of Scans.
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You guys need to learn transitions... You'll lose all of your games against anyone decent if you straight up rush siege tech... Mostly because if the other terran plays properly he'll have a small MM ball ready to snipe your marines and tanks.
Really you should start off with 2 rax pressure with marauders and transition into expanding and getting tanks. Not only do marauders wreck marines if the marines are in small numbers but Stim + conc shell wins every time especially with kiting. Once you've killed of his tanks if he rushed tanks then you can just go kill him. Or contain him. If he ever pulls his scvs just run away stim + kite and if they ever catch up just retreat. You'll be very far ahead. Because really the only way for a terran to defend early Marauder stim + conc is to get loads of bunkers and marauders or tanks himself. Test it out against another terran, you'll find not running towards tanks usually helps you mass critical tanks later.
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On January 21 2011 03:15 GinDo wrote:Watch the GSL MKP versus NaDa. I think you'll like what he does. + Show Spoiler +Mass Marines and Drops. Abuse Mobility
Actually those games proved why not only MarineKing is a gimmick player whose style will be solved and he will disappear but also why this style is absolutely inferior in TvT.
If you play TvT without tanks and try to abuse mobility you are putting the game in your opponents hands. You can only be aggressive if your opponent leaves an opening for you to do so. What is worse is that you are actually incapable of dealing with your opponents army so you always end up having to go for a base race if the tanking terran moves out.
Always ending up in base trade situations is generally a sign that you have a flawed strategy.
+ Show Spoiler +Marineking prime should actually have lost both of the games where he went for the base trade with his weaker army, the only reason he won was becaues NaDa messed up. The moral of those games is that you can't win TvT with a mobile MMM force unless you either all-in early or hope that the opponent throws the game away.
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Right now in my TvT I've been doing a 4 helion drop without blueflame and transition into banshee thor marine. I use the banshees just to keep tank count low such as killing any out lying tanks flanking his army to snipe tanks when he tries to engage sniping tech labs etc. with the thors i use them to absorb tank damage and to quickly snipe them early in the battle when they are dead send the marines forward to kill his MM support. Also it is good to get armor upgrades for the thor so it doesnt get focused down so easily. After you win a couple of engagements and can keep his tank count low enough you can just a move him. Also try to keep as many thors alive as possible.
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On January 21 2011 04:57 Mercury- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 03:18 Mystgun wrote:
I hate to break it to you but I think if you are on equal econ standing with your opponent, you pretty much have to go tank/viking in TvT or you will probably lose out, since there's no way MMM or thors can beat a critical mass of tanks. you might be able to win w/ some banshee/ viking mix if you can abuse their mobility relative to tanks and selectively engage his army to waste his scans, but I think your own tank/viking army is the de facto response. this is pretty much just like PvP where mid-late game becomes war of the worlds between colossi Tank/Viking loses to Bio/Tank hardcore at equal economy. It's an outdated strat except for really early pushes.
Sorry for my ambiguity, but I thought it was implied that tank/viking would have at least marines mixed into it since you will certainly have leftover minerals to spend. You are right in that bio/tank composition will beat viking/tank/marine outright but if a terran player has a huge lead in viking count they would the opponent will almost certainly get some banshees to trash your tanks while their own tanks give support fire against marines.
Some clutch drops will certainly give you an edge in any MU, not just tank/viking, but since you are playing a mirror match where mass tanks w/ marine support can counter most ground and vikings can take care of air, you are forced to play this viking/tank wars if one player transitions into that build.
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mech is the best choice here, if u go with rines i just mass tanks and win easily (5 fact from 2 base), drop marine do no work if the opponent spam turrets(with all the minerals you can spam them easily).
Just go tanks, hellions and thors(from 5-facts, 2 base)then add 1 fact with tech lab and one with reactor, for every additional expo....(expand fast every 5 min)
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b a boss like mkp...abuse mobility and thus hit and run
if tanks are not in siege mode, u can easily overrun their army. abuse drops and b ahead in base count. also b proactive and engage the enemy with skirmishes, hit and run and drops.
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I've been playing mech tvt since ages ago, many others are known for it too like goody obv. You can tvt without siege tanks of course...but like mentioned already, it ends up in a lot of games where the tank/marine/marauder player is moving out, and you backstab their base and go for a base trade.
If you really do a lot of suicide drops over and over, it can work, but imo it's pretty gimmick compared to solid mech play, or marine/marauder/tank/medivac play.
Mech tvt has always been very strong, it's just so few people do it because they like fast paced marine marauder medivac drop games, and also for some reason or another with the influx of all the new players in SC2, everyone forgot one of the most basic brood war tvt fundamentals - turret rings.
Turret rings are what allow you to mech in tvt, tvz, and even tvp because a turret ring allows you to focus your main army to move out on the map without worry of a drop backstab, a mass void backstab, or a mass muta backstab.
Tbh, I think the reason most Terrans forgot about using turret rings is because they prefer the aggressive aggro drop style gimmick styles. It feels very good to land a bunch of maraudders and marines and start killing shit, rather than a more methodical defensive sc1 tank based play. To each their own though.
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I haven't tried it yet, but I've been mulling over an idea, because I hate tank/viking vs tank/viking too.
What if you go marauder/viking with a very small compliment of ghosts? He'll set up his big tank line, you call a nuke on it, and one of three things happen:
1) He scans your ghost, and kills it, which sucks.
2) He sees the nuke dot, and unsieges to flee, at which point you stim, charge in with the rauders, cancel the nuke, and own his tanks
3) He doesn't see the nuke dot and loses all his stuff; you win.
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On January 21 2011 06:31 Millitron wrote:
I haven't tried it yet, but I've been mulling over an idea, because I hate tank/viking vs tank/viking too.
What if you go marauder/viking with a very small compliment of ghosts? He'll set up his big tank line, you call a nuke on it, and one of three things happen:
1) He scans your ghost, and kills it, which sucks.
2) He sees the nuke dot, and unsieges to flee, at which point you stim, charge in with the rauders, cancel the nuke, and own his tanks
3) He doesn't see the nuke dot and loses all his stuff; you win.
option 1) is the most likely one against any competent opponent. additionally, marines own marauders. if u dont build any tanks, u need to mix in marines of ur own into the marauders or his marines will destroy you. in particular as his tanks will always get one round of volleys off on ur force. also why even fight for air supremacy when u dont have any units which use it?
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I have tried massing marauders, with stim and upgrades and you MIGHT break through if you play it smart and catch him of guard, other than that I don't know banshees?
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On January 21 2011 06:34 Black Gun wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 06:31 Millitron wrote:
I haven't tried it yet, but I've been mulling over an idea, because I hate tank/viking vs tank/viking too.
What if you go marauder/viking with a very small compliment of ghosts? He'll set up his big tank line, you call a nuke on it, and one of three things happen:
1) He scans your ghost, and kills it, which sucks.
2) He sees the nuke dot, and unsieges to flee, at which point you stim, charge in with the rauders, cancel the nuke, and own his tanks
3) He doesn't see the nuke dot and loses all his stuff; you win. option 1) is the most likely one against any competent opponent. additionally, marines own marauders. if u dont build any tanks, u need to mix in marines of ur own into the marauders or his marines will destroy you. in particular as his tanks will always get one round of volleys off on ur force. also why even fight for air supremacy when u dont have any units which use it?
I wouldn't really fight too hard for air supremacy, except to protect against banshees, or maybe to help cover any medivacs I might decide to make.
Also, you can do some hilarious things like call down multiple nukes, so basically he can't catch them all. Call one on his SCV's, call one on his tanks. He now is much more likely to miss one, especially if you can call them quick enough that he only gets the "Nuclear Launch Detected" warning once.
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really depends on the map, on something like lost temple, you might wanna always gl ST, but on a more versatile Jungle basin or scrap, you can go pure mm with viking medivac, capitalizing upon stim dps and stuff.
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It's not that TvT is completely non-viable without Tanks, but a Tank/Viking composition is very dominating in the mid-game, which is when most TvTs will be decided. If the other player rushes for the late-game and the Tank/Viking player does not push out quick enough, he'll lose to BC/Viking or Viking/Banshee or some such.
Alternatively, Bio hits faster than Tank/Viking, but because weak very quickly, so you can always try two-pronged bio drop. It's not gimmicky just because it has a faster timing window and loses effectiveness quicker than Tank/Viking. Some people enjoy ending the game fast with strong micro/timing, which is as big a part of a game as macro. However, you have to rely on Stim, Medivacs, and Marauders for this, and you cannot hit while the Tanks are sieged, unless there's only 1-2.
@avilo: Can you go into a bit more detail about "turret ring"?
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On January 21 2011 06:44 Scare_Crow wrote:
It's not that TvT is completely non-viable without Tanks, but a Tank/Viking composition is very dominating in the mid-game, which is when most TvTs will be decided. If the other player rushes for the late-game and the Tank/Viking player does not push out quick enough, he'll lose to BC/Viking or Viking/Banshee or some such.
Alternatively, Bio hits faster than Tank/Viking, but because weak very quickly, so you can always try two-pronged bio drop. It's not gimmicky just because it has a faster timing window and loses effectiveness quicker than Tank/Viking. Some people enjoy ending the game fast with strong micro/timing, which is as big a part of a game as macro. However, you have to rely on Stim, Medivacs, and Marauders for this, and you cannot hit while the Tanks are sieged, unless there's only 1-2.
@avilo: Can you go into a bit more detail about "turret ring"?
its pretty self explanatory. build 20 or 30 turrets in a ring around the edges of your base.
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The thor is a valid replacement for the tank. I just like running over tank lines b/c that was one of my more favorite things to do in BW.
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On January 21 2011 06:46 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 06:44 Scare_Crow wrote:
It's not that TvT is completely non-viable without Tanks, but a Tank/Viking composition is very dominating in the mid-game, which is when most TvTs will be decided. If the other player rushes for the late-game and the Tank/Viking player does not push out quick enough, he'll lose to BC/Viking or Viking/Banshee or some such.
Alternatively, Bio hits faster than Tank/Viking, but because weak very quickly, so you can always try two-pronged bio drop. It's not gimmicky just because it has a faster timing window and loses effectiveness quicker than Tank/Viking. Some people enjoy ending the game fast with strong micro/timing, which is as big a part of a game as macro. However, you have to rely on Stim, Medivacs, and Marauders for this, and you cannot hit while the Tanks are sieged, unless there's only 1-2.
@avilo: Can you go into a bit more detail about "turret ring"? its pretty self explanatory. build 20 or 30 turrets in a ring around the edges of your base.
Ah, I had some kind of turret formation in mind that allows some strange optimal form of mutual covering fire. But yes, huge amounts of Turrets blanketing the map is pretty useful when you have nothing to do with your minerals after the 3rd or 4th base.
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On January 21 2011 08:39 Scare_Crow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 06:46 rauk wrote:On January 21 2011 06:44 Scare_Crow wrote:
It's not that TvT is completely non-viable without Tanks, but a Tank/Viking composition is very dominating in the mid-game, which is when most TvTs will be decided. If the other player rushes for the late-game and the Tank/Viking player does not push out quick enough, he'll lose to BC/Viking or Viking/Banshee or some such.
Alternatively, Bio hits faster than Tank/Viking, but because weak very quickly, so you can always try two-pronged bio drop. It's not gimmicky just because it has a faster timing window and loses effectiveness quicker than Tank/Viking. Some people enjoy ending the game fast with strong micro/timing, which is as big a part of a game as macro. However, you have to rely on Stim, Medivacs, and Marauders for this, and you cannot hit while the Tanks are sieged, unless there's only 1-2.
@avilo: Can you go into a bit more detail about "turret ring"? its pretty self explanatory. build 20 or 30 turrets in a ring around the edges of your base. Ah, I had some kind of turret formation in mind that allows some strange optimal form of mutual covering fire. But yes, huge amounts of Turrets blanketing the map is pretty useful when you have nothing to do with your minerals after the 3rd or 4th base.
Well, you want the turrets at a distance that two can fire at once usually, and also the hi sec auto tracing upgrade is good mid-game and when drops are around.
Early game if you're starting a turret ring, you want a few as possible covering the most ground, but then later you want to add more turrets in between those so drops cannot get through at all, as well a sensor tower.
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United States10253 Posts
shees are very good to snipe tanks... though your investment will need to pay off. however, you if can stop tank production enough, your mmm and thors can do serious damage to the weak marines and vikings. tanks are pretty much what allows the marines to do damage by shelling and then rines pick off what's left.
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What I've been doing was a 1 Rax FE with a late Reaper (Tech Lab right after first Marine) into 3 Rax. I continuously make a Marine heavy army. You need to take map control in order to deny any contain. Usually if the opponent scouts it, he will go for an early push. You can use that to your advantage and snipe the Tank and kill the rest of his army. There is a small timing window where he has his Tank and a few Marines. You can then transition into a 2 Fac or 3 Starport (2 Reactor and 1 Tech Lab). Map control is key in the game.
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Ok thank you all for your great suggestions =)
I understand that map control is very important if you dont go Siege Tank. Im gonna try some stuff I read here .
Btw are there any comments on the replay I submited ? Just want to know how bad my Terran is 
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EPT
