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Hi All,
A quick intro: I'm a 2500 Platinum Protoss with a little over 500 games under my belt since release so far, with about a further 150 during the beta.
My understanding of the Game, mechanics, strategy and match-up makeup is still improving but I'm tending to find my play style is more macro focussed - as such I tend to struggle against early timing pushes or in battles where I don’t have overwhelming superiority.
I'm getting better at understanding positioning and how to arrange an engagement to favour myself, but I'm also starting to Really feel those fights where I may have come out a lot better if I had been able to micro my units properly.
TL;DR: Can I get some advice from everyone on how exactly they perform "Scoot-n'-Shoot Micro"? I'm looking at the mechanics & technique involved so I can practise dealing with early pushes such as 4-gates or 2rax's where being able to kite units would help.
I've tried having my units (e.g. a few stalkers) selected, right-clicking where I want them to Start walking towards and then after a second or two, right-clicking on the Enemy unit chasing me, but I always get killed because I either can’t keep enough distance between myself or the Enemy, or he whittles me down because my technique appears to make the re-fire timing on the stalkers take forever, as such he has reinforcements running up the ramp before I've killed the units chasing me.
Any pointers would be really appreciated.
Thanks!
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A better option is to right click where you want your units to walk, and then hit S for Stop, which will cause them to fire at anything in range. Some people prefer using A-move instead of Stop, or Hold Position, but clicking on the individual unit takes more mouse movement and precision than you can probably afford. The short answer is, right click S right click S right click S. If you are fighting especially fast opponents, feel free to wait a little while before hitting S. You don't absolutely have to stop every time the attack 'recharges'.
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Move the ranged units to the location you want them to move, and then press 'S' to make them stop. This will make them attack any unit in range, immediately after, start moving again, press S when your stalkers can shoot once again, move, S, move, S...
This is the best way, you can also move and then A-move back to the enemy, but this requires more actions, more time, and overall, it's less kiting, more shooting.
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Move the ranged units to the location you want them to move, and then press 'S' to make them stop. This will make them attack any unit in range, immediately after, start moving again, press S when your stalkers can shoot once again, move, S, move, S...
This is the best way, you can also move and then A-move back to the enemy, but this requires more actions, more time, and overall, it's less kiting, more shooting.
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I get better results with hold position for some reason... so I would recommend rightclick->h, rightclick-h. You should practice it against a computer opponent (or in a unit tester) until you get comfortable with it. The optimal timings are different depending on what units you are microing with and against.
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On January 18 2011 05:05 ikarigendo wrote:
I get better results with hold position for some reason... so I would recommend rightclick->h, rightclick-h. You should practice it against a computer opponent (or in a unit tester) until you get comfortable with it. The optimal timings are different depending on what units you are microing with and against.
If you hold position, some units will stand still instead of walking a short distance back to shoot. If you 'stop' your units, they will run towards the enemy to shoot. With 'S' you should deal more damage.
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I am a drummer, and I like to do the motion in triplets. A, LEFT MOUSE, RIGHT MOUSE. Left pinky, right index, right middle. Trip-a-let, trip-a-let. Over and over. You can practice it wherever you go. Just imagine yourself pressing those buttons while watching tv. It's a habit after awhile, and no one has to know.
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Well, kiting with the stalker compared to the more better "scoot&shoot units" such as the marine and marauder is quite harder. This is due to the stalker having a delay before shooting.
Also, you don't right click on the unit when moving as if you miss, you'll get closer and be attacked. You want to move and press either hold or stop.
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I like a-moving a bit better because I can either do a general shot with clicking on the ground or a specific shot by clicking on the unit.
I didnt realize that stalkers had a delay. Although I have noticed that stalkers seem worse at it than marauders (and especially marines). It would be nice if blizzard reduced that a bit; should improve stalkers a bit but only for players who have the APM/multitaske to utilize it.
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On January 18 2011 05:08 VelRa_G wrote:
I am a drummer, and I like to do the motion in triplets. A, LEFT MOUSE, RIGHT MOUSE. Left pinky, right index, right middle. Trip-a-let, trip-a-let. Over and over. You can practice it wherever you go. Just imagine yourself pressing those buttons while watching tv. It's a habit after awhile, and no one has to know.
What is the left mouse for? Isn't it just rclick -> S, rclick -> S? Or A-move instead of S if the situation calls for it.
Wait. Is attack move right or left click. Wtf i have like a billion games played and cannot recall... wtf.
I guess it is just instinct now? Lol
EDIT: a-move is usually better, because any units not in range will keep walking to attack, which is especially useful for when you've just hotkeyed reinforcements and don't want them to stop walking to the engagement. Totally irritating when that happens
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I'm 2500 diamond and never actually thought to press "S" to get my guys to get my dudes to attack. I've been doing "move -> A + move" which is alot harder at least in theory, lol
<3 you team liquid
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i've seen some players misclick using a-move (attacking their own units or buildings), so occasionally i will patrol micro (replace a-move with p-move) xD
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P is way over on the wrong side though!
A move is way closer to all the other hotkeys -> easier?
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On January 18 2011 07:26 Turo wrote:
P is way over on the wrong side though!
A move is way closer to all the other hotkeys -> easier?
I think you can fiddle with the options somehow but if you just have big hands you can do it.
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On January 18 2011 04:58 Negative Zero wrote:
A better option is to right click where you want your units to walk, and then hit S for Stop, which will cause them to fire at anything in range. Some people prefer using A-move instead of Stop, or Hold Position, but clicking on the individual unit takes more mouse movement and precision than you can probably afford. The short answer is, right click S right click S right click S. If you are fighting especially fast opponents, feel free to wait a little while before hitting S. You don't absolutely have to stop every time the attack 'recharges'.
I had no idea. Thank you!
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I to had no idea that using 'S' worked just as well as A-move. This will make my bio micro a LOT cleaner thanks!
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I don't think it works "just" as well. When I do it with marines, I seem to notice a small lag between the time they stop and the time they shoot when I use the stop command compared that I don't see when I do an A-move.
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I am going to test this right now against some AI's and see what the difference is. Alright so all I did was start up a game against a hard ai protoss, get concussive shields, and 4 rax push and just micro around.
I found a-move to be slightly better for control as long as you do it in the right rhythm. Microing with S was simpler but sometimes not all units would attack, or run forward to attack. If you can do it I think right-click, a-move, right click is a better way to micro, just be careful not to target your own stuff! So if your microing in close quarters or inside your own base, the stop version would be best.
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The best scoot and shoot micro is the right click where you want to run to and then hit stop. However I prefer to use the rightclick to place, a-click to place, rightclick to place. If you are going to pick one I suggest you use the S version as you have a lower chance of accedentally friendly firing.
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Thanks for all the tips guys - now I just need to practice some of the different options and pick one that works well for me.
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I know there was an argument in some other thread that hold was better than stop because it didn't stop some animation but I really don't know myself. Anyways, with a-moving I tend to focus fire things when the battlefield gets messy (thereby overkilling) so i use the stop variant.
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On January 18 2011 06:58 Turo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2011 05:08 VelRa_G wrote:
I am a drummer, and I like to do the motion in triplets. A, LEFT MOUSE, RIGHT MOUSE. Left pinky, right index, right middle. Trip-a-let, trip-a-let. Over and over. You can practice it wherever you go. Just imagine yourself pressing those buttons while watching tv. It's a habit after awhile, and no one has to know. What is the left mouse for? Isn't it just rclick -> S, rclick -> S? Or A-move instead of S if the situation calls for it. Wait. Is attack move right or left click. Wtf i have like a billion games played and cannot recall... wtf.
Attack move is A, left click. Move is right click. You want to attack-move *away* from the enemy (when in range), so that you can immediately right click in the same spot to make your units stop attacking and run away. If there *is* a performance difference between units under a Stop (or Hold) command and those on Attack, there's a fairly simple two- or three-key sequence for whichever option you believe is superior.
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I use S and H for different situations.
Hold position will keep ur units in that formation and S will spread them out more of a concave.
so i guess its the same as using a ball or concave. Ex) ill use hold position for stalkers vs lings for harder surround by the lings. roachs vs zealots(charge or not) = stop cause ill usally outup the other person early/mid game and roachs get +2 per attack up so more attacking=better.
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get a mate play on normal speed, then fast, then faster
get your units on a hotkey
run back, click attack move on the oppoments ranged unit (stalker/roach) and move back again, rinse and repeat untill all there ranged units are gone, then vs cc units just move back stop, move back stop rinse and repeat
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In PvP you really need to rightclick on your opponent's stalkers, at least in the 4 gate vs 4 gate micro-battles. Focus firing the weaker stalkers is incredible important, S will make all the units just shoot at random stuff. Of course you damn better not miss, because in this case the stalkers will just straight up move to the location without attacking at all.
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A while back someone posted a vid of a map that let you practice your shutter step micro. You control one marine that shoots a nexus while another marine shoots a high templar that moves and you can see the differences in dps (equal the better). This would be a good map for you to see whether you get better results with whatever technique you like better. I dont actually remember what the name of that map was, if anyone knows can they please share it?
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I prefer A-move over stop or hold, because otherwise units which are out of range don't get to attack. This is especially true with roaches, which have a long animation and a short range. This applies only if you want to stutter step into the enemy offensively.
On the retreat, stop or hold are probably better because the units farther away would otherwise turn around to get in range. I use A-move all the time anyway out of habit.
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On January 18 2011 10:43 X-Codes wrote:
I don't think it works "just" as well. When I do it with marines, I seem to notice a small lag between the time they stop and the time they shoot when I use the stop command compared that I don't see when I do an A-move.
I call speculation on this. Do you "seem to notice" it, or is it actually happening? I've heard people vaguely suggesting this before, but it doesn't sound like anyone has anything to back this up. IF it is indeed better to use a-move, then we need to know this, but if not, then people need to stop wasting keypresses on it. So which one is it?
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On January 18 2011 10:58 red_hq wrote:
The best scoot and shoot micro is the right click where you want to run to and then hit stop. However I prefer to use the rightclick to place, a-click to place, rightclick to place. If you are going to pick one I suggest you use the S version as you have a lower chance of accedentally friendly firing.
A - move, A - move, is the most efficient since it will make sure that all your units will attack the units you're kiting. Doing s-move, s-move to kite is less efficient and it's stupid to suggest someone to do that just because if you miss micro you can accidently attack one of your own building/units. Only time i would suggest someone to do S-move is with marines in early game against lings because lings are faster and marines have a very fast attack speed and also because using the s-move method would keep your marines clumped up.
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Right click and stop works perfectly for me. I'd advise trying that out, as well as what the others are recommending with the Attack Move + Right click and Right Click + H.
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i am confused, this 'scoot and shoot' thing is different from kiting?? move -> A + move or some people prefer S. probably the most basic micro if you ever play war3(we call it orb-walking) 
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Scoot and shoot micro is important for protoss in the early game. However, good forcefield micro is much more important. If you are having trouble with early pushes, it could be you are not using these well and that scoot and shoot is not really your problem. Without sentries, protoss gateway will get beaten by equal cost marauders and roaches. You might have simply been outmacroing your opponents up to now so you don't realise it.
When I got to platinum (now in diamond) I had to switch my style of play up to go much more sentry heavy early on. Sentries allow you to use good micro to even the odds vs terran and zerg units. They can:
1. Block ramps to delay pushes until you are ready for them
2. Hold the enemy at distance to exploit the stalkers long range
3. "Cage" your opponents in with zealots.
Trying to master those three uses and squeezing enough of them out without delaying tech was what got me from plat to diamond. For good forcefield control watch HuK who is insanely good them. Forcefield + skill = OP :-)
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right click + s is a good way however sometimes you will want to focus fire certain units so i suggest practice with focus fire scoot and shoot to. it is harder but also better and needed sometimes, eg you have 3 stalkers he has 2 stalkers 2 zealots if you get rid of his stalkers first you can scoot and shoot the zealots all day long, if you focus the zealots with right click s you could lose 1 and a half stalkers from his stalker fire and thus lose the battle
dont look for the easyiest way but rather the most effective as everything with practice ends up easy 
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On January 18 2011 19:02 kor0na wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2011 10:43 X-Codes wrote:
I don't think it works "just" as well. When I do it with marines, I seem to notice a small lag between the time they stop and the time they shoot when I use the stop command compared that I don't see when I do an A-move. I call speculation on this. Do you "seem to notice" it, or is it actually happening? I've heard people vaguely suggesting this before, but it doesn't sound like anyone has anything to back this up. IF it is indeed better to use a-move, then we need to know this, but if not, then people need to stop wasting keypresses on it. So which one is it?
I've noticed the same thing when it comes to Marines, meaning there being a short lag period. Don't have any way right now to test this as I'm at work, but I look at it in terms of the code/ai processed in order to do this
1. Using A+Left-click, Right-click: Assuming a right click was used first, Player then performs A+Left-click, and the AI immediately tells the marines to find a target and fire.
2. Using Right-click, Stop: Assuming a right click was used first, Player then performs a "Stop" function, and then the AI kicks in. I'm no programmer, but I would guess the AI script behind a Stop function would first tell the marines to stop moving (which does have it's own animation btw), and then tell the marines to attack any targets that approach.
I know it doesn't seem like much, but the extra steps built into #2 could, and possibly should, create a brief lag in the time it takes to attack. All I can say from experience is, there have been times in which I was chasing a probe out of my base or running down some straggler units of my opponents army, and when using the #2 method above I fell behind with my marines and didn't get the kills. It only took that happening a few times before I began trying the #1 method above, with much better results. I still suck at getting the timing down just right, but I believe that once I become very proficient with the method, it will consistently yield better results.
If I have time this evening I'll test this and post a replay or something.
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On January 18 2011 18:52 FinestHour wrote:
A while back someone posted a vid of a map that let you practice your shutter step micro. You control one marine that shoots a nexus while another marine shoots a high templar that moves and you can see the differences in dps (equal the better). This would be a good map for you to see whether you get better results with whatever technique you like better. I dont actually remember what the name of that map was, if anyone knows can they please share it?
Good shout... TL search is my friend! 
It was QXC who did it - take a look here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=125866
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A, left click, right click... A, left click, right click... A, left click, right click...... ect when moving towards the enemy / when chasing
S, right click... S, right click... S, right click... ect when running away.
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A-move toward enemy, S-move away. If you like to look at your base while moving your army toward a xel naga tower or something you should always A-move. Same with Scouting patterns. Shift will walk by stuff and you can loose all your units to a couple of idle banlings. A-move ftw
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No need to debate or get too complicated here. Just do what method works for you.
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Two things:
First, I want to make it clear, since there are some discrepancies with a-move. After selecting your units and telling them to move away, when you tell them to attack move, the place you attack move isn't in the direction of your enemies, it's away from your enemies. i.e. you tell your army to move backwards to point A (which is in the opposite direction of your enemies), and then you attack move, exactly where point A is. You are telling your units to attack move, backwards. There is no mouse movement involved. What happens is that the enemy units are still within the acquisition range of your units, even if you attack move backwards (e.x. your units will fire at the enemy infront of you even though you told them to attack move backwards, since they will attack anything close enough, while attack moving).
Second, there are some pro and cons of different variations.
If you have a large army and do the "right click(move), a (attack), left click (target point for attack-move)" AKA attack move version of kiting, then what may happen in the units farthest away from your enemy who are attack moving may not engage, since you're telling them to attack move away from the enemy, and they don't happen to be close enough to engage.
This can be used in retreat maneuvers. In many cases of battle, you'll realize you won't win, and you have a few options.
1. Full retreat: tell your units to {move} back to your base.
This is when you retreat, and then have to macro up a second army immediately.
2. Microed retreat: tell your units to {move} back to your base, but add micro to try to get more
units alive. Used when you're trying to save the last two collosi particularly, for instance.
3. Fight to the death: don't micro, let units fight until they die. Used to maximize damage, and/or if retreat is not an option (e.x. running zealots from hellions).
4. Etc.: tell unit to go in as deep as they can, to get scouting info before they die. Tell unit to use up remaining energy on w/e, just trying to make the best of the unit.
Within Microed retreat. Some things you can do are. Split your units into small groups, and tell them to go in different directions, so the farther the enemy chases one group of units, the farther they are from the rest of them. You can also have the most important units, run, while the more replaceable ones fight.
Similarly, when using a-move micro. In that scenario where if you have a big enough army, and a-move away from the enemy, only a certain amount of the units engage. If you're retreating, but being chased by a powerful army, that is capable of destroying everything, and also capable of chasing down a very large portion of your army (infestors?, zerglings?, charge zeals/stalkers?, stim/concussive?), then this a-move movement is pretty much the only thing you can do, to save your units.
TL:DR
When being chased by a big army, instead of a normal retreat, you attack-move retreat to your base, the units in the front of your army (closest to your enemy) will acquire target of your enemy's units, and start attacking. The units in the back of your army, will also attack move, but are far enough away from the enemy units that they attack move to your base, as if retreating.
This effectively splits your army into two groups: the half that's retreating, and the half that is attacking. Rather than cutting your army in half, manually through a selection box (or multiple boxes, if you're engaged at an angle), this quick and easy micro does a lot of magic. The group that's fighting, attacks your enemy and automatically drags their ai while the units not attacking safely retreat, with your opponent's units automatically attacking the units you left behind.
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Ya it seems like there is a small delay when you use 'S' as opposed to using a-move where there doesn't seem to be any delay at all, anyone else feel me on this? or maybe I'm just imagining it dunno
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2500 diamond Protoss player who hasn't had to use anything other than A-move?
And I've heard that Terran was the most noob friendly... lol just kidding
Ignore everything here about using A-move or the stop command.
Terran player here, which means I can't get away with not doing it.
To stutter step use the hold position command so there isn't a delay. Once they hold position they will attack any nearby enemies. Then move them back. It's really simple and useful. It's just a matter of practice and timing.
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On January 19 2011 09:30 kawazu wrote:
2500 diamond Protoss player who hasn't had to use anything other than A-move?
And I've heard that Terran was the most noob friendly... lol just kidding
Ignore everything here about using A-move or the stop command.
Terran player here, which means I can't get away with not doing it.
To stutter step use the hold position command so there isn't a delay. Once they hold position they will attack any nearby enemies. Then move them back. It's really simple and useful. It's just a matter of practice and timing.
Why would you not use A-move? It actually works a little better then hold in most situations, it just takes an extra action.
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On January 19 2011 09:59 dmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2011 09:30 kawazu wrote:
2500 diamond Protoss player who hasn't had to use anything other than A-move?
And I've heard that Terran was the most noob friendly... lol just kidding
Ignore everything here about using A-move or the stop command.
Terran player here, which means I can't get away with not doing it.
To stutter step use the hold position command so there isn't a delay. Once they hold position they will attack any nearby enemies. Then move them back. It's really simple and useful. It's just a matter of practice and timing. Why would you not use A-move? It actually works a little better then hold in most situations, it just takes an extra action.
Try doing A-move to stutter step stimmed marines and get back to me.
I used to try to do it with attack move a long time ago. It's really easy to get bogged down in that micro and you have no real benefit if you are stutter stepping properly.
Units with hold position will fire at anything in range instantly just like attack moves. The only difference between using hold and attack move is that your units will move to get into range. That movement is almost always going to be counter productive because the whole point of stutter stepping is to try and maintain distance between you and your enemies.
If you get good at gauging the attack range of your units you, you don't have to worry about your units moving into position to fire because they are already there.
Therefore using hold position is better because it has less micro requirements and does the exact same thing.
Using attack move would probably work fine for units with a slower attack animation like stalkers or hellions, but you would have to have much better micro than I do to use it well and I'm not sure there are real benefits.
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^ sometimes you want to stutter step when moving toward the enemy or chasing.
In this situation a move is better
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On January 19 2011 14:58 THE_oldy wrote:
^ sometimes you want to stutter step when moving toward the enemy or chasing.
In this situation a move is better
If I understand you correctly, at that point you don't need to do anything. They do it on their own if you just a-move behind them, so I wouldn't really call that case "studder stepping" because i think of that as the micro technique.
Also there is a point to not using a-move to follow people. If you have a big enough group of units you have to worry about the front row of units firing at max range while the majority of your units sit there twitching.
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Sooo much good advice in this thread. TY TL!!! I've always used a-move, even with marines. Gonna try the h-key now ^^.
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On January 19 2011 16:59 kawazu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2011 14:58 THE_oldy wrote:
^ sometimes you want to stutter step when moving toward the enemy or chasing.
In this situation a move is better If I understand you correctly, at that point you don't need to do anything. They do it on their own if you just a-move behind them, so I wouldn't really call that case "studder stepping" because i think of that as the micro technique. Also there is a point to not using a-move to follow people. If you have a big enough group of units you have to worry about the front row of units firing at max range while the majority of your units sit there twitching.
Nope there is a point to do this actually. When following carriers with marines for example you want them to avoid the arc so they can switch direction more easily. Stuttering them causes them to keep teh clump formation. Try it and see.
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the hold position move suffer from the same delay as the stop move, which is HIGHLY effective in large numbers or in-unfavored situation (eg : your stalker vs a marauder) move + a-move guarantee you that your units will shoot asap.
Also, by delaying a bit the a-move after the right click, you can position the slower unit or the unit with shorter range in a range to shoot. As a protoss, i definitely prefer to right click + a-move because it'll get my army in a ball, or get a good concave if the enemy don't move while fighting.
The a-move kitting is also better because the unit out of range will keep moving, and either if you retreat or chase an enemy, you want the unit out of range either run away faster (and don't get slowed by concussive for exemple), or catch up with the enemy running away faster while unit in range stop to shoot at their targets. The hold-move will make all the unit out of range completely useless because they won't even try to get into range, whereas the stop move will let a few units out of shoot range move into fight if they are in kind of a "aggro-zone".
Also when chasing an enemy, your mouse pointer is near the enemy units, with the a-move, you can easily transform the "chase and random shoot at unit" to a "chase and focus low-hp units" if you manage to click with accuracy. If you manage to click on a low hp unit, you'll have all the benefit of your "in-range" army, and if you miss it, you'll anyway shoot everything into range. Such accuracy isn't do-able with hold and stop (you definitely prefer see your stalker shooting at marauder instead of marines, don't you?).
This is all the reason I chose to a-move almost in all case (except if you got muta, you'll prefer to use the hold position for spreading out and trigger the magic box trick)
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I like it how your TL:DR version is longer than the actual first part of the post
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A Move is better if you can do it correctly. In most cases. Thats pretty much what most premier Terrans say. In general it comes down to what feels right.
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EPT
