EPTbleh its not the best fix but something needs to be done
An Appeal To The Community - Page 2
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love.less
United Kingdom293 Posts
bleh its not the best fix but something needs to be done | ||
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zzdd
United States484 Posts
I think people are expecting a definitve example where something works everytime when the circumstances are much more important. Strengths and weaknesses should be more important than how many times you can win using it. There really isn't a solution to this as players will focus on "Will this win me games" instead of "What would this work well/poorly against." | ||
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Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
On January 17 2011 01:48 ZerG~LegenD wrote: 2) It allows other people to make shorter counter arguments as they only need to point out where you failed instead of providing the counter argument to all possible arguments backing your statement. I can't believe how many times I've intended to write a response to some post I disagree with, only to realize that I don't have time to give a proper, fair treatment of the post in question. Let's hope people start giving more detailed posts - because then if people are wrong (or if you think someone is wrong, more correctly) you can disagree with them succinctly. People are always going to be wrong or misguided on the strategy forum. As it is now, though, it's difficult to tell people why (or, again to be fair, why you THINK that they are wrong). | ||
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Mercury-
Great Britain804 Posts
On January 17 2011 03:29 Moja wrote: Except then you lose the high quality contributions that a select few lower skilled players have made (generally these players are mid diamond). Magic box technique. Sockfolding (mineral mining technique that was patched out by blizzard). Kcdc's 1 gate FE. Iechoic's hellion drop build. The 2 Thor push build posted by evoli. Antisocialmunky's marine raven build (popularizing marine trading for larva even before Marine King showcased his impresive splitting micro). Griffith's 4OC build (which still has a lot of untapped potential at the highest level). etc. etc. Yes there's a lot of crap to sift through but you can still find those rare gems. Sometimes it takes someone below the pro level to break out of dogmatic thinking and offer stuff that can really change the metagame. I do agree with OP that posts should be backed at the very least by sound reasoning. High level replays should always be provided when possible, but sometimes there are new concepts that haven't made their way to the pro scene yet. + Show Spoiler + most recent example: terran going mech vs protoss. I even personally argued against it, and tested it in practice games with the proponents to show that a speedray transition completely dominates mech. But with flux vanes removed, Jinro showed that it's at least conceivably viable on some maps by going 2-0 vs MC... Time will tell if it's actually solid or whether it's just a brief phase that can win on the surprise factor, but at the very least it shows that people need to be less dogmatic in their approach to strategies. iechoic was very high rated when he posted his strat (and I think still is) and generally the rest of the people you mentioned are either solid masters or close to it, also I think the 2 Thor Push was shown by Janook's replays. | ||
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KaiserW
United States87 Posts
The SC2 branch would do good just to take a look at the Brood War forum. Thats how it should be, and which is what made teamliquid.net the name it is today. EDIT: The rest of my post is not really part of the original topic. I will post this somewhere else. + Show Spoiler + I realize that teamliquid.net has been around for 9 years, and you have grown into the largest Starcraft community on the Net; so you're quite obviously doing something right. I have only been a part of this community for about a month and a half, and have 30 posts. Many people will take this information, and put my opinion/advice off as invaluable and less worthy. (I just used myself as a quick example; I'm not part of the argument) I find this wrong, because of the following: Two different people. One person has a post count in the hundreds, but he may have accumulated the majority with posts in threads talking about how cute your cats are. Or meaningless, effortless posts, such as "-NuKeD-" 20+ times over several pages of a thread(from the same person.) {These are extreme examples.} Something that has nothing to do with discussing the game and its intricacies; is my point. The other person may not be very active beyond the game/strategy forums, where the discussion is about things unrelated to gameplay. This person may carefully consider their strategy posts, and may delete his seemingly well thought out argument, which was ready to post, when he considers another angle. I have seen many quality, well thought out posts/thread by people with a low post count. This is a idea I have been toying with(nothing original obviously):This is just my opinion and I would like to hear some criticism on this, as I can see this having been discussed already. I have been thinking about the point system that is in use on many sites on the internet, as I'm sure many of you are familiar with, where you could 'like' or +1 a post if one finds it is a quality post. These points would add up for each poster, and be an identifier of the quality of their posts; in addition to displaying their post count. Maybe have two different point pools: One for Strategy/Game posts. One for Social posts. Arguments I can see against this: #1: This could be unnecessary, as the quality of their post will be judged after reading that post, on a individual basis. #2: Misinformed forum dwellers could +1 a post that is well written and may seem like solid advice, but is truly not. Counter Arguments for Argument #2: If this system were implemented, that would be a less common scenario; there would be more benefit than loss, IMO. Please point out any faults in my post. Thank you. | ||
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falstag
United States55 Posts
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danielsan
Romania399 Posts
That clearly missing along with further sustaining the behavior listed above will lead to some other flawed conclusions based on actions, even worse than the current "cause it worked for me". It will be cause it worked for Jinro vs Idra in match X, disconsidering any prior decisions or mistakes and just focusing on the fact. | ||
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ZerG~LegenD
Sweden1179 Posts
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S.O.L.I.D.
United States792 Posts
Anyway, I think that people with "bad" opinions with no support, etc., are going to post those regardless of whether or not they're straight up wrong or not. People in general don't like to admit they're wrong or realize that they're not the authority on the issue in question, even if someone else posts something 10 times more educated and with more evidence, etc. It's really the mindset that needs to change. Accept that you're not always going to be correct. Don't post in a thread to raise post count, post because you know about the subject and want to share your knowledge with other members of the community. Think before you post: "will someone reading this be positively impacted by what I'm posting?" If the answer to that question is no, you probably shouldn't be posting this. I think we're all at fault for this, hell I know I am, but looking at our own posting habits definitely is a step in the right direction. While the majority of people are going to skip this thread and ignore it, this is certainly a good first step on the path to a better Strategy Discussion forum. | ||
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Equalizer
Canada115 Posts
Unsupported comments on strategy would quickly gather dislikes and at some point could be collapsed and not fully displayed. This would help deal with the issue of bad comments derailing threads. Also such a system could help make moderators' jobs easier as a person with a lot of disliked comments would be a good candidate for a warning/temp ban. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Anyway, I think people on these forums should try to back up their theorycrafting with replays. I remember when I was talking about Phoenix play last patch, I got a lot of derailers who would simply refuse to acknowledge phoenixes as a solution to muta+ling play. I provided about a dozen replays, and the postings mysteriously stopped (lol). Although, one guy did continue to put up unsupported excuses and theorycrafting about why phoenixes/my opponents are garbage. More replays. Less unsupported theorycrafting. Not to say theorycrafting is bad, but it's kinda pointless to open a thread and see so many people spouting crap without actually providing evidence for what they claim. | ||
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Iamyournoob
Germany595 Posts
 Before SC2 came out, I played WC3 and Dota. Do I have to say more? Well, going through the forums and posting in threads somehow always ended up in insults, flames and balance discussions - especially in WC3. So when SC2 was released I discovered this site and it is such an improvement to what I have experienced so far in terms of forum quality. The SC:BW community was probably smaller than that of WC3 and I assume that the players were older on average and thus more mature. Now as SC2 has been released, the SC:BW community and that of WC3 (and all other strategy games) merge and become one. Furhtermore, SC2 got great ratings and lots of people who'd never touched an RTS-game may have joined the community. So the SC2 community is probably younger and not as mature as the old SC:BW community. Now, I may start speculating at this point and I don't want offend anyone, as already said, but sometimes it seems to me that the SC:BW community is a bit elitist. SC:BW achieved a balance, no other RTS game ever did. SC:BW developped to such a perfection that it has been so succesful for over 10 years. So I understand why Starcraft players kinda looked down on other RTS games, because they were easier to play, because they were not as deep as SC1 and because the community was full of flaming and trolling kids. But now those people come together and those who are used to the SC:BW standard will have to live with it. So, even though I may agree with the OP, I don't think that separating "bad posters" from "good posters" will help at all. I actually find it very anti-democratic. Everyone should be allowed to express his or her opinion and if a post is crappy then ignore it or tell the poster. After all, we, who come to this forum, want to have fun and learn more about the game. There might be people who should put a little more thought into what they say, but hey: give them a chance to improve their post quality. I was given it to and I believe that I kinda grew into this community and changed my ways of forums-behaviour. I understand all the frustration, but really what do you want: A small, exclusive club where only the "good players" (who are automatically mature, smart and mannered" are in? Or do you want a big community that spreads esports and represents the importance of esports? I want the latter. Yeah, there are more things to get upset about, but in the end: It really ain't that bad. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On January 17 2011 06:21 Equalizer wrote: Has a "like/dislike" system on the comment level been considered? Unsupported comments on strategy would quickly gather dislikes and at some point could be collapsed and not fully displayed. This would help deal with the issue of bad comments derailing threads. Also such a system could help make moderators' jobs easier as a person with a lot of disliked comments would be a good candidate for a warning/temp ban. Perhaps incentives as well: people who make good posts in the strategy forums can get a special icon? | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On January 17 2011 01:48 ZerG~LegenD wrote: The Solution The world is infested with an illusion of self importance. Children are taught to stand up for their rights, to fight for their beliefs, to never admit defeat, to always seek the last word and to take up their god-granted space. This is so true, and I've been getting increasingly frustrated with the way that people are taught to be opinionated about issues without knowledge about them. I remember in a science class in high school, we learned about something (let's just say it was global warming) by reading a few articles. At the end of this, we were asked to take a position on the issue and debate one side. Why were we taking a position on something that none of us knew anything about? If you're a not an expert, you shouldn't be discussing the merits of global warming. That day, we were all taught a little bit that it's okay to be opinionated with almost no knowledge on the topic. If I ever teach, I'm going to give kids materials on global warming, and then ask them to take a side. When they take a side, I'm going to tell them they just embarassed themselves, they don't know anything, and they should never take a side on any issue if they have 5 minutes experience with the topic. It would be a good life lesson. | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On January 17 2011 02:36 [Eternal]Phoenix wrote: Magic box technique. can be posted in general forum Sockfolding (mineral mining technique that was patched out by blizzard). can be posted in general forum Kcdc's 1 gate FE. kcdc is in masters Iechoic's hellion drop build. iechoic is in masters, the build is still dreadful imo The 2 Thor push build posted by evoli. build+replay was by janook also in masters league Antisocialmunky's marine raven build he isnt at masters level and the raven part of the strategy is pretty terrible, as can be seen by 0 pros doing that build, if the forums were seperated im sure discussion of this concept (without the specific build) wouldve cropped in the masters forum, im sure Griffith's 4OC build (which still has a lot of untapped potential at the highest level). etc. etc. i dont know much about this build, i doubt it has the potential you mentionAs you see, almost all of the notable strategy threads of the past wouldve seen discussion by masters level players and had much more concise and higher level progressments. F.e. the kcdc FE thread (which is a great thread) was _incredibly_ washed down by idiots saying ..lol.. 3rax will beat this. and then other people saying (although in a more intellectual manner, no it wont, here are some replays(most of them were absolute garbage, even those by 'notable' players, but still)) that it holds. Funnily enough I was one of the few people (I think actually the only one) that posted lengthily replies supported by replays of abusive rax plays that even gave top players (like socke) trouble to defend off 1 base. I was ignored, maybe because the people defending the build had no counter arguments or replays, maybe because it was already the 500 th post and they had already experienced such a swell of negative feedback that they didnt feel inclined to defend it against well-formulated feedback. no matter how you look at it, cutting down the bad players expressing their opinions regarding specific strategies has almost no negative effects and can only help the development of one such thread. We don't have membership problems on these forums, most people wash down the quality/quantity of a strategy thread and make it extremely inconvenient for higher-level players to take the time to formulate a response amongst the vast stupidity that surrounds them. I'm a relatively solid player compared to most (i was top 400 on EU when i still laddered) and even though I've enjoyed expressing my opinion freely and frequently on the forums in the past, more and more i find myself typing out a few lines and then deleting them in frustration at the glance of all the bad advice that was already given. I can only imagine how it must feel for someone that is actually quite certain, and has a huge time investment, regarding the topics on these forums, when faced with this flood of misinformation. Don't get me wrong, I don't think I'm a good player (even though im masters league lol), infact I am uncertain about the majority of strategies I hear & talk about every day, but in my mind I cannot imagine how one could hope to accomplish a decent discussion when inviting those in the lower leagues (platinum and below). Yesterday I heard HasuObs and Socke co-commentating in the HomeStoryCup and it was fucking amazing. Never before have I heard (mind you I follow almost every tournament) 2 top of the line players actually discussing strategy before. It was so awesome, pure quality and they knew what they were talking about. If I had one wish it would be only pros discussing strategy on these forums and all of us sub top 200 players just marvelling at the pure OMGsogood such a discussion would entail. But unfortunately such a thing won't ever happen and I have to set my hopes for maybe experiencing something similiar when the TL staff starts doing something about the quality of the strategy forum discussion. I feel this is purely an issue of moderation. Most people are stupid, let's face it, 90% of us are anywhere between 12 and 24 years old and play videogames, one can't expect such a part of the population to be overly considerate or intelligent. With the - compared to other forums on the internet - rather strict moderation on the forums the TL staff has managed to make it a little less shitty of a ride. Unfortuntely most of the posts are still not up to the rules & standards of these forums and the only way to prevent them from posting is by a)punching them in the balls until they drop dead b)restricting their ability to post by either 1)bans or 2)specific forum restrictions. a) seems to be rather ressource-intensive and inefficient, b1) is done to great effect and it flabbergasts me that b2) is never used beyond stopping regular users to access the mod forums. As such, I strongly hope for sub-strategy forum to be created where at least SOME of the bad posters are weeded out. It's not a matter of people not seeing the good posts, it's a matter of good posts not coming to existence because of all the shit that surrounds their future-self. Unfortunately, the TL staff (which is largely free-time based so there is almost 0 pressure) is so extremely slow with decisions(theyve been working on the new -good poster gets highlighted- system for months(years?) now and we havent seen anything), that I doubt any discussion regarding this topic will bring much merit. The good posters will agree and wallow in self-pity further reducing the amount of good posts they make, the bad posters will not change (why would they, according to them they are not to blame) and the TL staff will maybe agree, maybe disagree, but most important of all, they wont change anything in the near future. | ||
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On January 17 2011 05:07 PatouPower wrote: Sadly this would not work. I have seen crappy posts by people who come from the master league, and excellent posts from people who come from the bronze league. You can't classify players simply by their ladder level. I don't think there are magical ways to prevent bad posts and punish bad posters. We can hope they will go away with time because they are obviously not that into Starcraft than the ones willing to discuss the game and thinking before posting, or you can ban them 1 by 1 (wich seems kind of arbitrary though). The point isn't to divide the forums into "here bronze players, go make bad posts together" and "good players go enlighten one another with amazing posts by yourselves;" the point is to make it easier for people to find advice that pertains to them. There are good and bad posts in the micro stakes forums on 2p2, and there are good and bad posts in the high stakes forums on 2p2. But, the advice given in the high stakes forums are totally worthless (and potentially harmful) to people at micro stakes. Do I really need to know about range merging when I don't hardly even know what a range is? Of course not. Learning a bunch of difficult techniques for marginal situations isn't useful for a relatively weak player, they need more general advice. I'm sure most people on these forums who are high diamond already either don't read/post anything or have to filter out thread titles like "Mutas are overrated" or "how do I beat mutas" or "how do I beat terran," which are clearly by lower diamond or lower league players who need general advice for macroing and unit composition. Since I already know different ways to deal with mutas, and the real issue for me is "how do I deal with mutas in this very specific situation?" this thread is going to rarely ever contain information I don't already know. Similarly, I doubt that threads about super new trends in various matchups is really all that helpful to someone in gold. Sure, maybe they find it interesting or want to try new things, but is it really going to help them improve to learn that if they scout 14 gas 13 pool versus 14 pool no gas versus 15 hatch to lay down either forge then cannon or forge then nexus then cannon or nexus first? These things are so marginal compared to the huge mistakes these players really should be focusing on. Furthermore, I doubt that most people who are in high diamond even know how to help a gold player improve. A high gold player probably knows more about the mindset and mistakes that a low gold player is making, and can help them improve, just like how someone play .10/.25 can help a .02/.05 player in poker better than tom dwan probably can. Subdivided forums would benefit all skill levels of players. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
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NearPerfection
232 Posts
Unfortunately atm if youre that good and not on a pro team no one knows who you are so you find yourself drawn into an argument with someone of a fraction of your skill, or worse disciplined by a mod for not providing enough back information (assumed). Time posting and arguing is better spent training for these players anyway. | ||
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Toxiferous
United States388 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On January 17 2011 21:07 iEchoic wrote: Subdivided forums would be awesome, but we really need to wait for grandmaster league. Master's league is basically just the new Diamond - I personally know some really terrible master league players. It's not really a good qualification. That said, the administrative work in setting that up and keeping it running would most likely make it unfeasible. Masters is still better than diamond, even if it's just a new tier it's still what the old top diamond was. That being said, a person can be high or play well but if they don't understand that their own experiences are merely part of the answer instead of THE answer then they still are bad posters. It really just comes down to the understanding that what we perceive as fact isn't always fact thus we have to discuss things with the possibility of these facts being wrong. | ||
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