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An Appeal To The Community - Page 7

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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gregnog
Profile Joined December 2010
United States289 Posts
January 30 2011 06:06 GMT
#121
Great post man. As someone who used to come here during the beta of SC2, I just don't see any point really now. This forum is cluttered with absolute garbage, barely any meaningful threads or posts. Endless posts of scrubs spouting out 1 sentence with a "as a matter of fact" tone.
gregnog
Profile Joined December 2010
United States289 Posts
January 30 2011 06:17 GMT
#122
On January 24 2011 19:49 KawasakiJ wrote:
LOL at stressing abt posting quality on a ''game'' forum.

I agree that peeps neeed to post replays…but as for the rest... I disagree

Every1 can give advice, all advice comes from something that either worked for them, they saw / read abt…bottom line is…they trying to help and get enjoyment from putting their 2 cents on the internet…is this not like 90% of posts here?

If you want to isolate high diamond / masters / higher grade english & comprehension.…why not just request a section be made for them? Call it the ''no noob strat section for serious gamers who play and write good only''.

We can ALL learn from a bronze player….it just requires more chewing on what advice he gives…and a bronze player can drink in advice from everyone….hence ALL should have absolute freedom to post.
If anything….we need to be grateful that any1 even posts a reply.

This is a good idea!
Show nested quote +
Edit: To the solution I agree with some post above. It would be totally amazing if you could connect your TL Account to your battlenet account, so that in The line of your name your Ligue and Rate is written. (Best would be if one could use the hidden elo system but w/e)
Last edit: 2011-01-23 20:33:19


Sorry to say, but your post is very painful to read. Your mentality is the exact cancer that they are mentioning. Do not get so defensive, accept that your opinion is not special. Would you walk into a surgeons office and start giving advice? Your taking the freedom a little too seriously, if a low bronze wants to just chit chat it up about something in the game, he can go to a different section of the forum. This post is specifically about the STRATEGY section, apparently you did not understand that.
S.O.L.I.D.
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States792 Posts
January 30 2011 21:05 GMT
#123
On January 29 2011 14:06 MementoMori wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 16:29 mlbrandow wrote:
On January 19 2011 15:59 imBLIND wrote:
I agree. Threads get totally shitted on and I spend days looking for arguments under a pile of crap posts. There doesn't need to be segregation of posters, forums, or posts because that will just make this site an elitist clique. All we need is a system where the good posts stick out from the bad posts.


That's what this forum should be.

The most knowledgeable players should be the ones discussing most of the time.

One of the best forums from WoW strategizing and theorycrafting is elitistjerks.com's forum, and it's even in the name.

No one will argue though that that forum is home to the most knowledgeable and enlightening discussion related to WoW strategy.


I agree. I can't wrap my brain around how it would be bad for anyone to have a separate forum for masters league or even just for pros. That it will be an elitist website? Look I'm all for everybody sharing their opinions, and there's plenty of places on this site to do it. Wouldn't everybody like to be able to browse through some forum posts from pros only on strategy discussions? I know I would. Sure have a strategy forum for all the non pros and life will continue as normal there, exactly as it does here. But are you going to click on the forum where you can't post and listen to the pros talk or load up a forum similar to this one. Of course you're going to click on the pro one. Elitist? Maybe. Exponentially more valuable? Definitely



I certainly agree that allowing the leading minds of the Starcraft community put their heads together without being annoyed by bad posts is a good idea.

But I don't think a cutoff based on rank is a good idea. I used to play competitive Smash, and on the biggest Smash site there was a system called the Back Room, where top players and smart people could post and discuss things at the highest level. Now, on this site things were hidden, but it could still work with users being able to see and not post. On that site, people were let in in one of two ways. Either they were immediately deemed to be good enough based on accomplishments and posts, or they applied, showing their posts and accomplishments and then being reviewed by the people in charge of the back room. I think something like this could work. Top players could be let in immediately, and then people a few steps down from that who could display their good posts and some accomplishments in applications could be let in as well. That way, players with good ideas would be let in, whether or not their rating reflected that.

To sum it up, I think getting good players together to discuss would be good, but this shouldn't be based on ladder rank (for example Masters League only).

PhiGgoT
Profile Joined August 2004
Vietnam151 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-30 23:28:07
January 30 2011 23:23 GMT
#124
nvm im silly!
Shadrak
Profile Joined August 2010
United States490 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-01 21:51:55
February 01 2011 21:50 GMT
#125
On January 29 2011 14:06 MementoMori wrote:
I agree. I can't wrap my brain around how it would be bad for anyone to have a separate forum for masters league or even just for pros. That it will be an elitist website? Look I'm all for everybody sharing their opinions, and there's plenty of places on this site to do it. Wouldn't everybody like to be able to browse through some forum posts from pros only on strategy discussions? I know I would. Sure have a strategy forum for all the non pros and life will continue as normal there, exactly as it does here. But are you going to click on the forum where you can't post and listen to the pros talk or load up a forum similar to this one. Of course you're going to click on the pro one. Elitist? Maybe. Exponentially more valuable? Definitely


^^^This

Who wouldn't want to use a forum where they can't post but can read posts exclusively from players of higher rank than them? I think masters would be a good cuttoff, as an only pro board would likely be a little too quiet.

I'm not going to be offended just because I can't post in it (2 high diamond accounts, but no masters yet ). I'm going to be happy that I know I'm getting advice from people who have managed to advance more than me.

Leave the regular strat forum in place of course. It will see pleanty of use. And if a topic gets a lot of attention on the "pro" board people of lower leagues can make their own thread where they discuss their thoughts on it.
fant0m
Profile Joined May 2010
964 Posts
February 04 2011 05:04 GMT
#126
On February 02 2011 06:50 Shadrak wrote:

Who wouldn't want to use a forum where they can't post but can read posts exclusively from players of higher rank than them? I think masters would be a good cuttoff, as an only pro board would likely be a little too quiet.


Definitely agree. I only come to this forum to look for stuff that's been PROVEN to work, that people who are really good at this game use.

I also come looking for build orders, for game plans. If there was a very small number of topics, one dedicated to each viable plan/BO, that would help a lot. As it is, most of the posts are "help me with PvZ", "Help me with Unit X", "Do you think Y is imba?", etc...

I'm a solid diamond player, but there's still a lot of timings, BOs, etc that I never needed to learn to get to where I am. It would be really helpful to have a place to go to read up on those sorts of things.
Greth
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Belgium318 Posts
February 04 2011 10:39 GMT
#127
Splitting the forum would be a last ditch effort to save a small fragment of posters. It would be the same as accepting defeat. This thread is not about that.
The suggestion would not only create a secluded area for good posters, but it would leave the other half of the forum a urine soaked kiddiepool. And that's the issue this thread is discussing. An attempt at educating the masses, not protecting the few.

If anything should be separated then it should be the 'help request' threads that spark most of the problems. If they are subject to strong regulations then maybe the attitude in those threads won't affect the other topics as much.
The basic assumption that the OP is ignorant about the subject is so strong that it automatically creates the environment we're trying to combat.
Take the perfect example of this in Travis' latest thread, a help thread coincidentally:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189683

If there was such a thing, it would be a textbook example.
I read the first pages of this thread, and basically only focused on what the OP was responding to and his conversation with Salv, which eventually solved the problem before Darkforce ended the issue completely. The rest, encouraged with the fact that Travis is 'of TL.net' were discussing completely besides the point, badgering on over points that had stopped mattering several pages ago.
I gave up on the thread after 7-8 because it was like being caught in an eternal loop seconds before the processor was about to give out.
At the time of writing the thread is still going on strongly, at page 36, I have no idea and no intention to find out what the hell they are still going on about.

What needs to happen? People need to confront other users when they are no longer contributing to a discussion. Not the moderators, they have enough work keeping the real tripe out. If you have something to contribute, do so, if you don't, someone else needs to tell you to back off. And if there is an issue with that - if someone can't accept backing off - then a moderator can step in.
http://youtube.com/grethsc
getdead3
Profile Joined April 2010
United States23 Posts
February 05 2011 22:06 GMT
#128
Unless TeamLiquid wants to patrol the boards like a site such as Elitist Jerks, then you are going to have the trolls. Its just like anything else, most people are trying to do the right thing, but you have a small group that wants to troll and screw up the forums.

In any event, you can skip over that poor post and move on the the "better" post.
Go big or go home
ChickenLips
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2912 Posts
February 06 2011 10:55 GMT
#129
On February 04 2011 19:39 Greth wrote:
Splitting the forum would be a last ditch effort to save a small fragment of posters. It would be the same as accepting defeat. This thread is not about that.
The suggestion would not only create a secluded area for good posters, but it would leave the other half of the forum a urine soaked kiddiepool. And that's the issue this thread is discussing. An attempt at educating the masses, not protecting the few.

If anything should be separated then it should be the 'help request' threads that spark most of the problems. If they are subject to strong regulations then maybe the attitude in those threads won't affect the other topics as much.
The basic assumption that the OP is ignorant about the subject is so strong that it automatically creates the environment we're trying to combat.
Take the perfect example of this in Travis' latest thread, a help thread coincidentally:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189683

If there was such a thing, it would be a textbook example.
I read the first pages of this thread, and basically only focused on what the OP was responding to and his conversation with Salv, which eventually solved the problem before Darkforce ended the issue completely. The rest, encouraged with the fact that Travis is 'of TL.net' were discussing completely besides the point, badgering on over points that had stopped mattering several pages ago.
I gave up on the thread after 7-8 because it was like being caught in an eternal loop seconds before the processor was about to give out.
At the time of writing the thread is still going on strongly, at page 36, I have no idea and no intention to find out what the hell they are still going on about.

What needs to happen? People need to confront other users when they are no longer contributing to a discussion. Not the moderators, they have enough work keeping the real tripe out. If you have something to contribute, do so, if you don't, someone else needs to tell you to back off. And if there is an issue with that - if someone can't accept backing off - then a moderator can step in.



I don't know if you are actually serious.

Do you really think anything will change when you tell people to scrutinize others that don't contribute? This issue cannot be solved by telling everyone to be a good boy and contribute to make the forums better. It just doesn't work.

You either have the strategy forums as is, 100% shit or you can create a safe haven for good players to exchange information with 98% of the player pool excluded (masters forum).

All this 'the posters need to think and work together to improve posting quality' serves nothing. This thread is essentially filled with bad posters complaining about bad posts. This forum is a lost cause and I can see why every respectable player has almost completely stopped posting.

The stance of the TL staff is quite laughable, ever since the release of SC2, the strategy forum has been shit, and still they haven't done anything. Stickying this thread is even more hilarious. Like that is gonna help.

But whatever, this is the internet, I don't know why I even got my hopes up.
❤Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ✿
Klogon
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
MURICA15980 Posts
February 07 2011 04:34 GMT
#130
I honestly believe over 60% of the people in the strategy forums should not be posting advice in the first place. Even things like "I'm a bad player, so don't take my word for it, but I do x y z" sometimes just creates clutter that makes finding legitimate discussion harder.

Post less, read more.
Greth
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Belgium318 Posts
February 07 2011 22:31 GMT
#131
On February 06 2011 19:55 ChickenLips wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 04 2011 19:39 Greth wrote:
Splitting the forum would be a last ditch effort to save a small fragment of posters. It would be the same as accepting defeat. This thread is not about that.
The suggestion would not only create a secluded area for good posters, but it would leave the other half of the forum a urine soaked kiddiepool. And that's the issue this thread is discussing. An attempt at educating the masses, not protecting the few.

If anything should be separated then it should be the 'help request' threads that spark most of the problems. If they are subject to strong regulations then maybe the attitude in those threads won't affect the other topics as much.
The basic assumption that the OP is ignorant about the subject is so strong that it automatically creates the environment we're trying to combat.
Take the perfect example of this in Travis' latest thread, a help thread coincidentally:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189683

If there was such a thing, it would be a textbook example.
I read the first pages of this thread, and basically only focused on what the OP was responding to and his conversation with Salv, which eventually solved the problem before Darkforce ended the issue completely. The rest, encouraged with the fact that Travis is 'of TL.net' were discussing completely besides the point, badgering on over points that had stopped mattering several pages ago.
I gave up on the thread after 7-8 because it was like being caught in an eternal loop seconds before the processor was about to give out.
At the time of writing the thread is still going on strongly, at page 36, I have no idea and no intention to find out what the hell they are still going on about.

What needs to happen? People need to confront other users when they are no longer contributing to a discussion. Not the moderators, they have enough work keeping the real tripe out. If you have something to contribute, do so, if you don't, someone else needs to tell you to back off. And if there is an issue with that - if someone can't accept backing off - then a moderator can step in.



I don't know if you are actually serious.

Do you really think anything will change when you tell people to scrutinize others that don't contribute? This issue cannot be solved by telling everyone to be a good boy and contribute to make the forums better. It just doesn't work.

You either have the strategy forums as is, 100% shit or you can create a safe haven for good players to exchange information with 98% of the player pool excluded (masters forum).

All this 'the posters need to think and work together to improve posting quality' serves nothing. This thread is essentially filled with bad posters complaining about bad posts. This forum is a lost cause and I can see why every respectable player has almost completely stopped posting.

The stance of the TL staff is quite laughable, ever since the release of SC2, the strategy forum has been shit, and still they haven't done anything. Stickying this thread is even more hilarious. Like that is gonna help.

But whatever, this is the internet, I don't know why I even got my hopes up.


I posted that reply because I was trying to find alternatives.
Just falling on your knees and throwing your hands up in defeat like your doing sure isn't going to help. A masters forum won't work, it's been discussed before that you can't guarantee the validity of a person's advice by what rank he has. Plus a system to validate accounts to post there is almost impossible to make, mods would have to individually select people to post there. Even if the idea had some merit, the technical side would be a soulcrusher to say the least.

The messages given to other posters wouldn't have to be as obnoxious as your acting now. They can be something as simple as a general reminder, and they don't have to be the only thing in the post. If someone takes a stance that was already discussed, simply quote it to point that out before continuing with the rest of your post. If something has already been debunked, point it out with a quote or a spoiler and carry on with the thread.
If that provokes the poster you were replying to, good, then he can be reported and warned or removed altogether.

The big issue with so many forums and internet communities is that trolls and posts with no real content are tolerated as if they are a force of nature. As if normal communication is no longer possible. As if every post needs to have a TL:DR. And that something with three lines of text is considered a valid contribution. (Sorry Chill )
There is a means of dealing with this outside of outright isolation or removal of posters. It's creating an environment where proper discussion is promoted. Something most people probably don't even know exists.
I was quite an irritant back in my Mohaa and CoD1 days, but I learned on my clan and league forum to post like a human being. It won't work for everyone, but you'd be surprised how effective it can be.
Hell, it might even work for you!
http://youtube.com/grethsc
Fungal Growth
Profile Joined November 2010
United States434 Posts
February 13 2011 20:51 GMT
#132
I think you have two separate issues that have to remain separate...

The first is posters who detract from discussions about strategy by making things personal... They will insult the poster or the post without adding anything to the discussion. Insults/attacks very clearly should not be tolerated. It's very easy to spot these...is the post about starcraft strategy or is it about the poster and or post. Starcraft strategy should be countered with opposing points on starcraft strategy and not insults.

Then there is the subject of 'bad posts'. This is completely separate... A well meaning but perhaps naive player may post his say his strategy on say a mass carrier strategy. This should not be censored as long as he/she is civil and isn't insulting anybody. It need not turn into a waste either. Posters can post thoughtful counters to this which can give the thread value. A big mistake a mod can make is to just blindly start censoring posts because 'there are too many of them' or 'because they think that strategy is stupid'. This can be dangerously subjective and lead to mod bias and a disenfranchised community. Even high level players have contradictory positions over what strategies are best and the community should be afforded the same option to make honest mistakes.

The forum is kind of like a mini-economy... Each topic started is like a small business, and successful topics will survive with community support like real businesses. In a sense this is self-regulating without the need for top-down centralized deciding which topics are the best. If the community wants to exchange ideas on a pathetic strategy, they should be able to do so. If they want to be able discuss a 'duplicate topic' without having to search through many months of old topics using multiple keywords to find that 'original topic' (but apparently not so old they get accused of raising it from the dead), they should be able to do so. If people want to talk about what units are overpowered, they should be able to do so. The 'topic market place' will naturally correct issues like these...the exception being insults, parasite links and other ego trips that do not relate to SC strategy.
junemermaid
Profile Joined September 2006
United States981 Posts
February 15 2011 18:29 GMT
#133
On February 07 2011 13:34 Klogon wrote:
I honestly believe over 60% of the people in the strategy forums should not be posting advice in the first place. Even things like "I'm a bad player, so don't take my word for it, but I do x y z" sometimes just creates clutter that makes finding legitimate discussion harder.

Post less, read more.


Pretty much. I'll only contribute to a thread when I know what I'm talking about out of gaming experience. If more people took this stance, threads would be much less cluttered and readable.

If people do what the OP suggests, we're just going to have every post being 3 paragraph long in order to rationalize why their bad idea is good. People need to be less vocal.

Also, if you're having trouble filtering out what is reliable information and what is obviously not viable, then you probably shouldn't be posting in these forums in the first place.
the UMP says YER OUT
BlasiuS
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States2405 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-15 18:57:19
February 15 2011 18:56 GMT
#134
I'd like to point out that people posting strategy-related posts should be relying on replays more so than reasoning.

If you try to reason each of your points, then everyone just tries to argue why they're right and it just leads to giant back-and-forth wall-of-text arguments that keep getting bigger & bigger as each person tries to nitpick over each & every point that is made.

For example, look at this debate between me and another poster. We are arguing whether broodlords or ultras are the better 1st hive tech choice in ZvT:

1st my post, explaining the reasons why broodlords are better than ultras:
+ Show Spoiler +

On January 26 2011 06:41 BlasiuS wrote:
When I get hive, I almost always get broodlords over ultras, especially when terran is going marine/tank, for a few reasons:

1. broodlords tank way more cost-effectively than ultras, for quite a few reasons:
- they fly, ultras don't; as a result, broodlords aren't affected by tank fire at all.
- they have range 9, ultras are melee
- every time broodlords attack, broodlings are 'spawned' instantly in melee range, which means they don't have to travel to get into melee range (unlike ultras), and also means that broodlords/broodlings draw friendly tank fire more quickly & efficiently than ultras. Notice that when you attack a staggered siege tank line with ultras, terran goes and stims his marines and runs back, and when you attack a staggered siege tank line with broodlords, terran goes 'OH SHIT UN-SIEGE AND HAUL ASS NOW'
- broodlings are free and instant with every broodlord attack, ultras cost resources & time...A LOT of resources & time. Let me emphasize here, until terran gets vikings, broodlords are constantly reinforcing instantly and for free. I mention this because you talk about reinforcing...NO unit reinforces as efficiently as broodlords, it's not even close.
- tanks do bonus damage vs armored, ultras are armored, broodlings are not. You're actually lowering a marine/tank army's overall damage if you use broodlords over ultras.

2. ultras require upgrades to be effective, broodlords don't, however that leads to my next reason...

3. broodlords benefit from melee/carapace AND air upgrades, whereas ultras only benefit from melee/carapace upgrades. Thus, when you go muta/ling/bane mid-game, your upgrades match up, and as a result late-game broodlords actually synergize better with muta/ling/bane than ultras do.

The only drawback is that broodlords are more vulnerable to vikings, however if you are ahead in bases and don't throw away your muta ball in the mid-game, you can use your mutas to defend your broodlords.

My ideal late-game army against marine/tank is fully upgraded crackling/bane, my ball of mutas (anywhere from 15-30 mutas), and 4-6 broodlords, with level 2 air attack upgrade (once greater spire finishes, I can resume upgrading air armor as gas allows).

Now if terran starts to overproduce vikings to counter my broodlords, at that point I'll switch to ultralisks.



next someone broke down each & every point:
+ Show Spoiler +

On January 26 2011 08:26 Toxigen wrote:
Show nested quote +
tanks do bonus damage vs armored, ultras are armored, broodlings are not. You're actually lowering a marine/tank army's overall damage if you use broodlords over ultras

Actually, this is false. Tank damage is so high because of splash and almost nothing else. Their single target damage to armored targets in siege mode is actually less than their unsieged DPS. Ultralisks, when hit by tanks, are so large they absorb ALL splash. A tank shot hitting an ultralisk will result in 0 zergling or baneling deaths. A tank shot hitting a broodling will probably spill over onto zerglings and banelings.

Show nested quote +
ultras require upgrades to be effective, broodlords don't, however that leads to my next reason...

The downside is that broodlords are slower.

A greater spire takes 100 seconds to morph. An ultralisk cavern takes only 65 seconds. Granted, the upgrade does take 110 seconds to finish. However, if you start the upgrade once the cavern completes, that means that your first round of ultras will have the upgrade within 40 seconds after spawning.

If you add the build time of a corruptor to the time it takes to morph a broodlord, it's actually 4 seconds longer than the build time of an ultralisk (74 seconds). Something for your consideration:

Cavern+armor upgrade= 175 seconds (ultralisks are out by 135 seconds)
Greater spire+corruptor build time+morph time= 184 seconds

Ultralisks are also much less vulnerable to marines after the upgrade. A fully-upgraded ultralisk against a fully upgraded marine will only take 3 damage a shot.

Show nested quote +
broodlords benefit from melee/carapace AND air upgrades, whereas ultras only benefit from melee/carapace upgrades. Thus, when you go muta/ling/bane mid-game, your upgrades match up, and as a result late-game broodlords actually synergize better with muta/ling/bane than ultras do.

Broodlords don't synergize better, they just synergize. Ultralisks share all the same upgrades too. If you don't go mutalisk heavy, spending money on air upgrades isn't necessary, which offsets (imo) the cost of the ultralisk armor upgrade. Why spend 100/100 or more on air attack upgrades if you'll only build 8-12 mutalisks all game long?

Show nested quote +
The only drawback is that broodlords are more vulnerable to vikings, however if you are ahead in bases and don't throw away your muta ball in the mid-game, you can use your mutas to defend your broodlords.

This isn't always the case. Often, vikings are parked on top of thors next to tanks. A broodlord will take damage from vikings and if mutalisks intervene, they'll eat thor missile damage. Corruptors are a slightly better response, due to being armored and have 2 base armor. If he doesn't have any thors, then yes, you're correct... but can you really remember any times you've come up against a late-game Terran without thor support?

Personally, I think it might be better to give switching the tech a shot. Start with a couple ultralisks and then switch into broodlords to help unsiege tanks and then swarm in with a couple ultralisks to take shots while the ling/baneling cleans up. I still think the OP's use of ultralisks shows promise.



I felt his arguments were particularly weak, and didn't want tl readers to be misinformed, so I replied back (notice how big the wall-of-text arguments are getting):
+ Show Spoiler +

On January 27 2011 02:30 BlasiuS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 26 2011 08:26 Toxigen wrote:
tanks do bonus damage vs armored, ultras are armored, broodlings are not. You're actually lowering a marine/tank army's overall damage if you use broodlords over ultras

Actually, this is false. Tank damage is so high because of splash and almost nothing else. Their single target damage to armored targets in siege mode is actually less than their unsieged DPS. Ultralisks, when hit by tanks, are so large they absorb ALL splash. A tank shot hitting an ultralisk will result in 0 zergling or baneling deaths. A tank shot hitting a broodling will probably spill over onto zerglings and banelings.


How is a tank shot hitting a broodling going to do splash damage to zerglings & banelings? Broodlings spawn right next to their target in melee range; do you pull back your broodlings and group them with your other units? rofl, of course not. Tank shots hitting broodlings will only splash other broodlings (and tanks, and marines). Who cares if splash damage is hitting free units? Every point of damage that broodlings take, is wasted terran damage. I maintain that tanks will do less damage to your army overall if you're using broodlords over ultras.

Show nested quote +
On January 26 2011 08:26 Toxigen wrote:
ultras require upgrades to be effective, broodlords don't, however that leads to my next reason...

The downside is that broodlords are slower.

A greater spire takes 100 seconds to morph. An ultralisk cavern takes only 65 seconds. Granted, the upgrade does take 110 seconds to finish. However, if you start the upgrade once the cavern completes, that means that your first round of ultras will have the upgrade within 40 seconds after spawning.

If you add the build time of a corruptor to the time it takes to morph a broodlord, it's actually 4 seconds longer than the build time of an ultralisk (74 seconds). Something for your consideration:

Cavern+armor upgrade= 175 seconds (ultralisks are out by 135 seconds)
Greater spire+corruptor build time+morph time= 184 seconds


Your math is wrong. You can build your corruptors while the greater spire is building, so that they're ready to morph as soon as the greater spire completes. So actually it's just greater spire + morph time = 134, which makes them about even if you don't wait for the armor upgrade, and makes ultras significantly slower if you do.

Either way, that doesn't change the fact that ultras require upgrades to be effective, broodlords don't.

Show nested quote +
On January 26 2011 08:26 Toxigen wrote:
broodlords benefit from melee/carapace AND air upgrades, whereas ultras only benefit from melee/carapace upgrades. Thus, when you go muta/ling/bane mid-game, your upgrades match up, and as a result late-game broodlords actually synergize better with muta/ling/bane than ultras do.


Broodlords don't synergize better, they just synergize. Ultralisks share all the same upgrades too. If you don't go mutalisk heavy, spending money on air upgrades isn't necessary, which offsets (imo) the cost of the ultralisk armor upgrade. Why spend 100/100 or more on air attack upgrades if you'll only build 8-12 mutalisks all game long?


it's debatable, but I believe even without air upgrades, broodlords benefit more from melee/carapace upgrades than ultras do. So even if you don't get air upgrades, broodlords scale better.

besides, anything more than 10 mutas, and you should be getting level 1 air attack anyway.

Show nested quote +
On January 26 2011 08:26 Toxigen wrote:
The only drawback is that broodlords are more vulnerable to vikings, however if you are ahead in bases and don't throw away your muta ball in the mid-game, you can use your mutas to defend your broodlords.

This isn't always the case. Often, vikings are parked on top of thors next to tanks. A broodlord will take damage from vikings and if mutalisks intervene, they'll eat thor missile damage. Corruptors are a slightly better response, due to being armored and have 2 base armor. If he doesn't have any thors, then yes, you're correct... but can you really remember any times you've come up against a late-game Terran without thor support?


Uh, throwing away your mutas is a big mistake. You can always avoid such a mistake. So yes, it is always the case. Muta + a few corruptors can handle vikings long enough for your broodlords to do their damage.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, are you saying because of 1-3 thors on the field, that the drawbacks of broodlord outweigh the drawbacks of ultras? Let me remind you of some of the commonly-mentioned ultra drawbacks, NONE of which broodlords have:

-can't fly; very slow off creep
-requires at least 2-2 in melee/carapace to be cost-effective
-melee only
-too big, gets stuck on units and runs around dealing no damage.
-as a result of the above two, ultras are completely useless in a choke. This one deserves special mention, it means that unless you're fighting in an open area, ultras' effectiveness are severely reduced; broodlords don't have this problem at all.

Compared to the drawbacks of broodlords:

-slower than on-creep ultras
-vulnerable to vikings

These points have been made over and over again, by ladder & tournament players alike.

Another thing that favors broodlords: ultras don't force the terran to get a different unit, whereas brood lords force terran to get vikings, which are basically useful only for countering the brood lords.

Show nested quote +
On January 26 2011 08:26 Toxigen wrote:
Personally, I think it might be better to give switching the tech a shot. Start with a couple ultralisks and then switch into broodlords to help unsiege tanks and then swarm in with a couple ultralisks to take shots while the ling/baneling cleans up. I still think the OP's use of ultralisks shows promise.


ultras can certainly be useful, but never as good as broodlords as a first hive tech choice. There's a reason why zerg will almost always opt for broodlords over ultras when they get hive. Actually, there's many reasons, they've all been known for the longest time, I just reiterated them in my post to remind our readers. Because of all of those reasons, the advantages of choosing broodlords first greatly outweigh the advantages of choosing ultras first. But I do think that switching to ultras when terran starts getting a huge fleet of vikings is a good idea.

That was quite a long post, but I wanted to address the each of the points that were made.



but of course this is the internet, we all have to get the last word in, so he reponds AGAIN to each & every one of my points. His post is now a horrifying grotesque wall-of-text monster:
+ Show Spoiler +

On January 27 2011 03:29 Toxigen wrote:
Show nested quote +
How is a tank shot hitting a broodling going to do splash damage to zerglings & banelings? Broodlings spawn right next to their target in melee range; do you pull back your broodlings and group them with your other units? rofl, of course not. Tank shots hitting broodlings will only splash other broodlings (and tanks, and marines). Who cares if splash damage is hitting free units? Every point of damage that broodlings take, is wasted terran damage. I maintain that tanks will do less damage to your army overall if you're using broodlords over ultras.

This is true if you're not engaging with the rest of your army.

However, once (if?) you actually engage, you're still getting splashed. 35+ damage splashed around a ball of lings (or targeting a broodling and splashing onto a ling trying to get in range) is way more damage (and DPS lost) overall than a 500 hit point ultralisk losing a 10% of his life.

The fact of the matter is, ultralisks help mitigate splash which is the number one (if not only) reason why Terrans even use siege tanks. Mitigating splash does more to keep your actual units alive than spawning "free" ones. That's my point.

Show nested quote +
Your math is wrong. You can build your corruptors while the greater spire is building, so that they're ready to morph as soon as the greater spire completes. So actually it's just greater spire + morph time = 134, which makes them about even if you don't wait for the armor upgrade, and makes ultras significantly slower if you do.

Okay, I'll concede this. However, it's still interesting to note that to make the times competitive, you'll have to spawn corruptors beforehand and they'll be useless supply until the other tech kicks in, which if you're going the ultralisk route, you could actually max on useful units, including ultralisks, while waiting for ultralisk armor tech to finish.

Either way, we're talking a negligible amount of supply and mere seconds, so I won't go into this any further.

Show nested quote +
Either way, that doesn't change the fact that ultras require upgrades to be effective, broodlords don't.

Every unit requires upgrades to be effective. Ultralisks require one 150/150 upgrade and no spire upgrades. Spire attack upgrades (remember your point about synergy earlier) require at LEAST 100/100. I don't see ultralisks requiring any more upgrades than broodlords do.

Show nested quote +
it's debatable, but I believe even without air upgrades, broodlords benefit more from melee/carapace upgrades than ultras do. So even if you don't get air upgrades, broodlords scale better.

I'm not sure what you mean by "benefit more," in this situation. If you're talking about broodlings, tanks 1 shot them, so armor doesn't really help them there. Attack definitely would, because there's more of them attacking and at a faster rate than the ultralisk. Then again, the ultralisk has splash and gets a lot of damage vs. armored from upgrades. I guess it's situational. I wouldn't agree broodlords scale better without more proof. Ultralisks do shrug off marine fire like nobody's business (at least when compared to zerglings). Marines are decent against low numbers of broodlords if they can get close enough.

Show nested quote +
besides, anything more than 10 mutas, and you should be getting level 1 air attack anyway.

I currently overdo it on mutalisks but feel like my army is far too flimsy for most of the mid-game. I'm starting to wonder if there's a better answer out there that provides a bit more security/stability. Eating one bad splash hit from a thor while harassing really hurts when your first line of defense is mutalisks.

Show nested quote +
Uh, throwing away your mutas is a big mistake. You can always avoid such a mistake. So yes, it is always the case. Muta + a few corruptors can handle vikings long enough for your broodlords to do their damage.

I never advised throwing away mutalisks. You've still not explained how I'm magically able to hit and run engage these vikings within range of thor AA without losing mutalisks. That was my point. Mutalisk range is too short. To get into range of the vikings, you'll eat thor missiles. You'll lose more than the Terran.

Show nested quote +
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, are you saying because of 1-3 thors on the field, that the drawbacks of broodlord outweigh the drawbacks of ultras?

Actually, this would be the opposite of the point you're construing that I'm making. I'm saying that:
1. You shouldn't use ultralisks as a re-max unit.
2. You should transition to ultralisks without throwing away your army to re-max.
3. Opening ultralisks as hive-tech and then switching to corruptors/BL hasn't been explored, and maybe it should be.
4. You don't need to have an army comprised of all ultralisks for ultralisks to be effective -- in fact, more than 3 probably hurts more than helps.
5. Saying that mutalisks can protect your broodlords from vikings is unrealistic if the Terran has thors supporting the vikings. You'll lose the broodlords and maybe mutalisks (again, please don't somehow misinterpret this as me advocating through mutalisks away [?]).

Are these really drawbacks?
Show nested quote +
-can't fly; very slow off creep

Fair enough -- ultralisks can't fly. But they're the same speed as speed banelings off creep. Would you disqualify the use of banelings against Terran by virtue of their speed? Why the double standard against ultralisks?

Show nested quote +
-requires at least 2-2 in melee/carapace to be cost-effective

So does the rest of your ling/bling army. You should have these upgrades anyway. This isn't a drawback.

These are actual drawbacks (as opposed to saying that "ultralisks can't fly," while most of the rest of your army can't either). They can be lessened by simply making less of them:
Show nested quote +
-melee only
-too big, gets stuck on units and runs around dealing no damage.
-as a result of the above two, ultras are completely useless in a choke. This one deserves special mention, it means that unless you're fighting in an open area, ultras' effectiveness are severely reduced; broodlords don't have this problem at all.


Show nested quote +
Compared to the drawbacks of broodlords:

-slower than on-creep ultras
-vulnerable to vikings

They're also slower than off-creep ultralisks. In fact, off-creep ultralisks are TWICE AS FAST. Off-creep.

Show nested quote +
Another thing that favors broodlords: ultras don't force the terran to get a different unit, whereas brood lords force terran to get vikings, which are basically useful only for countering the brood lords.

This might be true. The current thinking is: BLs force vikings, Z switches to ultralisks, vikings are useless. However, going ultralisks first means he's not going to have the vikings for a BL switch later, perhaps improving the effectiveness of those BLs. How come the logic doesn't work both ways? It just seems like blind BL bias.

Show nested quote +
ultras can certainly be useful, but never as good as broodlords as a first hive tech choice. There's a reason why zerg will almost always opt for broodlords over ultras when they get hive. Actually, there's many reasons, they've all been known for the longest time, I just reiterated them in my post to remind our readers. Because of all of those reasons, the advantages of choosing broodlords first greatly outweigh the advantages of choosing ultras first. But I do think that switching to ultras when terran starts getting a huge fleet of vikings is a good idea.

I think the one of the points of the OP is that ultralisks are a shitty standalone unit, yet that's how everybody uses them (a re-max after broodlords of like 10 ultralisks). I think he's arguing for using ultralisks like how people use broodlords, which I honestly rarely (never?) see: 3-4 total as a supplement to your current army. Nobody would suggest that you sacrifice an army and re-max with broodlords. They're easy to kill unsupported and they take too long. Yet people do it with ultralisks even though ultralisks are similar in both regards?

Show nested quote +
That was quite a long post, but I wanted to address the each of the points that were made.

I appreciate it.




I'm fairly confident if I hadn't suggested taking this to PM, that it would have gone on forever, each of us arguing just for the sake of arguing.

Btw I did continue the argument via PM, and of course I didn't get a response. I should have provided some replays though. Although I get the feeling that even if I did, it wouldn't have settled anything =/

The same thing started to crop up in this thread, regarding whether hydras are a viable way of holding off initial 2-base phoenix harass in the mid-game. I didn't even bother to keep up the argument very long, it became apparent that he wasn't going to accept that they are viable, and I wasn't going to accept that they aren't viable (of course not, I have seen numerous top replays of zergs using hydras to fend off phoenix until corruptors are out). Although I haven't really seen any high-level replays of protoss continuing making phoenix past the initial 4-5 harass, so this argument will have to remain in the realm of theorycraft for now.

So don't make the same mistake I did TL, if you argue strategy with reasoning, make sure to provide replays, if not tournament replays, then at least mid- or high-masters replays.
next week on Everybody Loves HypnoToad:
RAWCUT
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom27 Posts
February 17 2011 10:12 GMT
#135
There's a few ways I'd suggest of making the cream rise to the top.

Voting system. Good comments and or threads get voted up. Bad comments/threads get voted down.

You could also link this vote system to the profile system. People who post quality have higher rank. Higher the rank the more 'trust worthy' the profile making the comments would be.

Not sure if my comments are of any use. I've been a reader of this forum for a long time but was never really brave enough to comment for the reason of this topic... seems a bit aggressive here.
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Shrewmy
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia199 Posts
February 17 2011 11:41 GMT
#136
I think too much focus is put on rankings to be honest.

People act like the fact they're a 2200 Diamond or something truly means they're a skilled player, when in reality they could just be four gating or cannon rushing each time.
RAWCUT
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom27 Posts
February 17 2011 13:06 GMT
#137
I wasn't suggesting ladder rankings as a guide... I mean forum rankings based upon how good your writing / input is.
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