EPT[Q] ZVP how to "beat" stalker?
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Motat
315 Posts
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FearTHeFrO
United States204 Posts
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Dental Floss
United States1015 Posts
I feel like roaches do okay against roaches; not great, but if you have them beaten on upgrades it can be okay. If you mix in hydras you can have a very cost effective mix that will beat them. Of course over-committing to hydras can leave you vulnerable to colossus which are often mixed in with stalkers. | ||
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Silmakuoppaanikinko
799 Posts
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Zeon0
Austria2995 Posts
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Theston
Germany15 Posts
Ling/Roach or Ling/Hydra ist also fine. | ||
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Sm3agol
United States2055 Posts
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Motat
315 Posts
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Philip2110
Scotland798 Posts
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Makeone
Sweden24 Posts
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eth3n
718 Posts
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freetgy
1720 Posts
you just have to make them deal their dps to them i.e. upgrades roaches are great Hydras+ Meatshield easily pure Speedlings vs. Pure Stalkers even Mutalisks are good thanks to bounce. | ||
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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
Ling > Stalker Roach > Stalker Hydralisk > Stalker Ultralisk > Stalker Infestor > Stalker Infested Terran > Stalker (Yes, go cry) Mutalisk > Stalker (Okay, maybe pushing it but with sufficient micro Mutas seem to crush my stalkers) Broodlord > Stalker Take your pick. I'm no QQ'ing, though I might main Protoss, because while all of these beat Stalkers.... I still love my sex offending jacks of all trades. | ||
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TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
roachs actually fare BETTER then stalkers. why? because with each attack upgrade the roach gains two attack. and the stalker only gains 1. and the stalker needs TWO different sets of upgrades for armour (shield and base armour) so late game roachs DO infact shit on stalkers. sure they may no beat them 1v1. but its so close its negliable. and then theres the fact the roach costs a fuckton less then stalker. just because stalkers do extra damage to armoured does not mean an instant. " OH NOES ROACH IS ARMOURZEZEZ CANT BUILZZZ THEMMZ" | ||
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DuneBug
United States668 Posts
But you probably don't want to invest that much in hydras cuz eventually toss'll get something to counter them or lose, probably templar. And it pays to not assume your opponent is stupid. roaches are cost effective but once protoss gets blink you'll be in trouble since he'll be blinking his injured stalkers back, and he'll have the advantage until you can outmass or get burrow & speed. | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
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Erucious
Norway393 Posts
On January 09 2011 09:13 TyrantPotato wrote: first understand that as the game goes on and upgrades start rising. roachs actually fare BETTER then stalkers. why? because with each attack upgrade the roach gains two attack. and the stalker only gains 1. and the stalker needs TWO different sets of upgrades for armour (shield and base armour) so late game roachs DO infact shit on stalkers. sure they may no beat them 1v1. but its so close its negliable. and then theres the fact the roach costs a fuckton less then stalker. just because stalkers do extra damage to armoured does not mean an instant. " OH NOES ROACH IS ARMOURZEZEZ CANT BUILZZZ THEMMZ" is this upgrade thing true? Dont the stalker fire 2 shots? Doesnt the stalker get +2 to each attack upgrade? | ||
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Eminent Rising
United States174 Posts
On January 09 2011 09:17 Erucious wrote: is this upgrade thing true? Dont the stalker fire 2 shots? Doesnt the stalker get +2 to each attack upgrade? no stalkers fire 1 shot. it might be 2 visually but it counts as 1 hit. | ||
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5ahj4g
72 Posts
On January 09 2011 09:05 ShatterZer0 wrote: Name one zerg unit that can attack ground that DOESN'T destroy stalkers en masse. Every single one but drones and queens. (Queens is debatable with correct micro xP) Ling > Stalker Roach > Stalker Hydralisk > Stalker Ultralisk > Stalker Infestor > Stalker Infested Terran > Stalker (Yes, go cry) Mutalisk > Stalker (Okay, maybe pushing it but with sufficient micro Mutas seem to crush my stalkers) Broodlord > Stalker Take your pick. I'm no QQ'ing, though I might main Protoss, because while all of these beat Stalkers.... I still love my sex offending jacks of all trades. sad but true. stalkers alone are remarkably cost inefficient against almost everything. just make more of whatever you have upgrades for | ||
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chipmunkrage
Canada51 Posts
To answer the OP if the guy has mass stalkers as others have said, hydra/roach/ling works well. Speedling by itself works well if you can outnumber and surround the stalkers. | ||
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HardCorey
United States709 Posts
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JMDj
United States454 Posts
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ExO_
United States2316 Posts
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TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
On January 09 2011 09:17 Erucious wrote: is this upgrade thing true? Dont the stalker fire 2 shots? Doesnt the stalker get +2 to each attack upgrade? nope just the one. so with 3 attack upgrades. roaches do 22 damage. stalkers 17(against armoured) sure stalkers attack just slightly faster. but since roaches cost 50 minerals and 25 gas less. id rather be on the roaches side | ||
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Tandinel
66 Posts
you can also go roach/hydra or roach/ling with infestors | ||
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ExO_
United States2316 Posts
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eth3n
718 Posts
hydra = 12 base damage; +1/per level; attack speed = .83 stalker = 10 base damage (+4 armored); +1/per level; attack speed = 1.44 In in-game seconds: hydra with level 2 ranged = 14 damage x .83 seconds = 16.86 dps stalker with level 2 attack = 12 damage x 1.44 seconds = 8.33 dps (stalker with level 2 attack = 17 x 1.44 seconds = 11.8 dps) (roach with level 2 ranged = 20 damage x 2 seconds = 10dps) | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On January 09 2011 08:41 Motat wrote: As zerg how do you beat stalkers when they are in big numbers. I know lings are really good against them early game, but once they get into a big ball lings are shit. How can I "counter" them? On an open field lings are greatly cost-effective against stalkers EVEN in a big ball (350 lings will beat 50 stalkers). Remember, one stalker costs 7 lings ... the hard thing to do as zerg (when using lings against stalkers) is to have enough larvae. When you get constantly pressured, its really easy to mess up larva injection. If you manage to get 1 upgrade ahead of your opponent then lings become even more amazing. | ||
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Twaxter
Canada190 Posts
If your going muta/ling you don't need to transition completely though, hydra/ling isn't too much of a counter, just get infestors, and make sure you surround with your lings and then attack with muta's, the muta's will get roasted 1:1 stalker, but you should have a macro advantage. Ultras/Brood lords both work, as they are gateway units and our hive tech units counter them. Its really your choice, Ultra's are easier to transition into than brood lords but if you already have a spire, brood lords seem fine. I really depends though on positioning, and how well you macro. Flanking with zerglings, makes them go into a position they don't want to, and lets you roach hydra kill some free stuff. | ||
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Celadan
Norway471 Posts
now my formula is simple: surround with some speedlings and deal the damage with roaches. In the bigger numbers where surround might not be possible i suggest hydra/roach/infestor as your composition. but i think having superior macro will always be the best "counter". i always go mutaling even if its mass blink stalker im up against, and win most of my ZvP's. (doesent work on the tiny maps tho due to the low econ) | ||
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PorkyPlague797
United States31 Posts
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us.insurgency
United States330 Posts
On January 09 2011 08:46 Zeon0 wrote: pure hydra sucks almost always, at least u should add lings as meatshield Have you played the game? Hydras eat stalkers alive. They are soo good till the toss gets to tier 3. | ||
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metroid composite
Canada231 Posts
On January 09 2011 10:06 eth3n wrote: hydra with level 2 ranged = 14 damage x .83 seconds = 16.86 dps stalker with level 2 attack = 12 damage x 1.44 seconds = 8.33 dps ...and Stalkers have twice the HP and more defence, so they actually win that 1v1. Honestly, if anything I feel like a stat comparison between Hydras and Stalkers makes Hydras look bad. Stalkers (barely) win the 1v1 even though their bonus damage is to armoured. Stalkers are faster. Stalkers are lower tech. Stalkers upgrade to Blink while Hydras upgrade to the range Stalkers have by default. On the Hydra side, they cost 25 less minerals. Oh, and I've heard them argued as better for their light armour. (I'm torn on that one: Marauders are nasty and they kill armour, but Banelings are also nasty and they kill light). | ||
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
On January 09 2011 08:44 Dental Floss wrote: The easy answer is ultralisks I highly doubt that. | ||
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Bleb
Croatia278 Posts
On January 09 2011 10:06 eth3n wrote: (stalker with level 2 attack = 17 x 1.44 seconds = 11.8 dps) (roach with level 2 ranged = 20 damage x 2 seconds = 10dps) stalker with +2 upgrades have vs light : 12 dmg / 1.44 s = 8.33 dps vs armored 16 dmg / 1.44 s = 11.11 dps @OP are you talking about 1 base protoss or 2 base protoss? did you early expand? do you have roach warren? too little info... general rule would be : scout - notice he's going for push - cut drones if needed - make units... lots of units... any units... put down spine crawlers if map allows it | ||
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Kpyolysis32
553 Posts
On January 09 2011 10:37 metroid composite wrote: ...and Stalkers have twice the HP and more defence, so they actually win that 1v1. Honestly, if anything I feel like a stat comparison between Hydras and Stalkers makes Hydras look bad. Stalkers (barely) win the 1v1 even though their bonus damage is to armoured. Stalkers are faster. Stalkers are lower tech. Stalkers upgrade to Blink while Hydras upgrade to the range Stalkers have by default. On the Hydra side, they cost 25 less minerals. Oh, and I've heard them argued as better for their light armour. (I'm torn on that one: Marauders are nasty and they kill armour, but Banelings are also nasty and they kill light). Stalkers also scale worse with armor upgrades, because half of their HP is shields. The reasons Hydras eat Stalkers even though they're so close in cost-effectiveness versus one another are 1) Hydras benefit hugely from having any tank in front of them (Lings or Roaches) and 2) Zerg typically has a little higher income than Toss and has more efficiently priced unit production facilities, so Protoss units have to be more cost effective to compensate. | ||
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Robellicose
England245 Posts
Stalkers are terrible units late game. The main reason protoss like myself still keep them around is because sentries are even worse ground based anti-air. if you build the same amount (cost wise) of speedlings as the toss has stalkers, you will crush them. When I'm using a stalker heavy army, my biggest fear is the zerg getting a sneaky force of lings behind me and flanking my stalkers. If that happens, they can't escape and they get munched. As a toss player I'd suggest flanking as one of the best ways to eliminate the threat of stalkers, as if they're forced into a straight up, non-moving fight they are very substandard units. | ||
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Madslash
United States23 Posts
On January 09 2011 10:37 metroid composite wrote: ...and Stalkers have twice the HP and more defence, so they actually win that 1v1. Honestly, if anything I feel like a stat comparison between Hydras and Stalkers makes Hydras look bad. Stalkers (barely) win the 1v1 even though their bonus damage is to armoured. Stalkers are faster. Stalkers are lower tech. Stalkers upgrade to Blink while Hydras upgrade to the range Stalkers have by default. On the Hydra side, they cost 25 less minerals. Oh, and I've heard them argued as better for their light armour. (I'm torn on that one: Marauders are nasty and they kill armour, but Banelings are also nasty and they kill light). Hydras vs stalkers in a straight up fight may be close, but it's so easy to just get some lings/roaches to soak up the damage while your hydras sit back and rip the stalkers apart. | ||
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Duban
United States548 Posts
Hydras vs stalkers in a straight up fight may be close, but it's so easy to just get some lings/roaches to soak up the damage while your hydras sit back and rip the stalkers apart. All these numbers are forgetting one thing. Protoss have some of the most powerful force multipliers in the game. Sentries are the greatest force multiplier in the early game. Colossi and HTs wreck rows of Zerg and terran units in the late game. Protoss zealot/stalker may be weak in a straight fight, but that's only because sentries increase the effectiveness of their army so much. Tl;DR: Stalkers are fine because of protoss' powerful supporting units. | ||
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TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
On January 09 2011 12:03 Duban wrote: All these numbers are forgetting one thing. Protoss have some of the most powerful force multipliers in the game. Sentries are the greatest force multiplier in the early game. Colossi and HTs wreck rows of Zerg and terran units in the late game. Protoss zealot/stalker may be weak in a straight fight, but that's only because sentries increase the effectiveness of their army so much. the thread is about stalkers. do not derail the thread by introducing collosus and hts. | ||
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Duban
United States548 Posts
On January 09 2011 12:05 TyrantPotato wrote: the thread is about stalkers. do not derail the thread by introducing collosus and hts. Why? Sentries,at the very least, are critical to discussing the balance of the stalker. They are a force multiplier that increases the effectiveness of the stalker greatly. Force fields to disrupt the enemy force and guardian shield to take advantage of their already high shields. | ||
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Silmakuoppaanikinko
799 Posts
On January 09 2011 08:47 Theston wrote: How would these roaches tank if hydras have the same range as stalkers?Roach/Hydra is much better against Stalkers than pure Hydras. Roaches are there for tanking the damage. Ling/Roach or Ling/Hydra ist also fine. You just focus down the hydras first, and then you're left only with roaches which stalkers fair much better against. With zealot I get this idea, they are melee, but stalkers have the same range as hydras, there is nothing that stops you from focussing them down first. | ||
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TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
On January 09 2011 12:07 Duban wrote: Why? Sentries,at the very least, are critical to discussing the balance of the stalker. They are a force multiplier that increases the effectiveness of the stalker greatly. read the op. not a word of sentries collosus opr hts are mentioned. i agree they should be discussed as they are almost always seen with stalker armys. however the op didn't do a good job of his opening post. and since there is no replay and with the little information given. we have to assume that he played against a low level player who just massed stalkers. if he posts some replays. COUGH COUGH POST REPLAYS!!!!!!!!! then we can discuss the inclusion of sentrys into the picture | ||
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SCdinner
Canada516 Posts
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Madslash
United States23 Posts
On January 09 2011 12:08 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: How would these roaches tank if hydras have the same range as stalkers? You just focus down the hydras first, and then you're left only with roaches which stalkers fair much better against. With zealot I get this idea, they are melee, but stalkers have the same range as hydras, there is nothing that stops you from focussing them down first. If the roaches or lings are closer then they hydras - which they will be due to their range -, then the stalkers will attack the roaches/lings first. Most players don't have the apm required to target each stalker without wasting tons of shots from the stalkers on an already dead hydra. | ||
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5ahj4g
72 Posts
tl;dr horrible op | ||
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AndAgain
United States2621 Posts
I always lose horribly whenever I make a lot of stalkers. | ||
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Kpyolysis32
553 Posts
On January 09 2011 12:07 Duban wrote: Why? Sentries,at the very least, are critical to discussing the balance of the stalker. They are a force multiplier that increases the effectiveness of the stalker greatly. Force fields to disrupt the enemy force and guardian shield to take advantage of their already high shields. We're not discussing "the balance of Stalkers." You can't even have balance for a single unit. The OP wanted to know about how to deal with mass Stalker, so we're talking about what units deal with purely them well. If you do want to go there, though.. "Force multiplier" is not a thing. That's not a term we in StarCraft use, and it shouldn't become one. It just doesn't make sense. It's not like there's some number of sentries that you get where all of your stalkers are suddenly doubly as effective. They, as well as HTs and Collossi, do have good synergy with units that can protect them. This is true. But please, never say "force multiplier" again, because it's stupid and obfuscates your meaning. Also, your reasoning for why these units are good with more durable units is pretty poor. Collossi and HTs are good with units that protect them because they are fragile, but do a lot of damage very quickly, and at a considerable range, so these bulky units can prevent opposing units from killing them. Sentries are similar, except instead of being strong because they deal a lot of damage, they're strong because they prevent a lot by limiting your opponent's ability to kite and form concaves, and by using guardian shield. "guardian shield to take advantage of their already high shields" also makes no sense; Guardian shield is better with a unit like the Zealot who has high HP, because then it can stack with their base armor. | ||
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Kpyolysis32
553 Posts
On January 09 2011 12:20 5ahj4g wrote: I think shit like this is a good example of why discussing unit counters is silly - you can't just talk about one unit and ignore everything else. this isn't like the fastest maps in bw where everyone picks a unit and makes 6526552993 of it tl;dr horrible op If he's having trouble with mass Stalkers and not any well-crafted unit composition, it's perfectly reasonable for him to ask about how to deal with purely them. It's actually his opponents who are ignoring everything else, and thus them who are being 'silly' | ||
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Darthturtle
United States718 Posts
Stalkers are really fucking fast. Even mass speedlings have a hard time getting a surround off against a large enough ball that's microing well. Add in blink and stalkers can pay for themselves five times over in the amount of damage they can do and units they can kite. Fungal basically takes all that away from that immediately. Combine their low fire rate with subpar damage, and they simply die against almost anything in a straight up fight. | ||
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Silmakuoppaanikinko
799 Posts
On January 09 2011 12:20 Madslash wrote: Ah, okay, fair point, I suppose my case assumed perfect play, which players don't really do no.If the roaches or lings are closer then they hydras - which they will be due to their range -, then the stalkers will attack the roaches/lings first. Most players don't have the apm required to target each stalker without wasting tons of shots from the stalkers on an already dead hydra. | ||
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Geovu
Estonia1344 Posts
They are also hard-countered by upgrades. Any upgrades at all means that stalkers are half as or less effective. On January 09 2011 12:42 Darthturtle wrote: Against any brand of stalker, be it normal or blink, Infestor/ling works wonders. Stalkers are really fucking fast. LOL A ZERG USER SAYING 2.95 IS FAST. Dude let me tell you the only time I notice the stalker's 'speed' is when they get in front of my zealots to die to lings, roaches or marauders. Anything really. They can't even outrun slow lings on creep, and between stim and conc shells they are anything but fast, unless once again you compare them to other Toss units. Also I am pretty sure that you cannot get a practical number of infestors out quick enough to stop any kind of mass stalker play. | ||
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eth3n
718 Posts
On January 09 2011 08:47 Theston wrote: there is nothing that stops you from focussing them down first. You are so much better off auto-attacking than focusing with stalkers its not even funny stalkers overkill horribly and have huge recharge, gl with that | ||
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AirbladeOrange
United States2574 Posts
On January 09 2011 12:27 Kpyolysis32 wrote: If he's having trouble with mass Stalkers and not any well-crafted unit composition, it's perfectly reasonable for him to ask about how to deal with purely them. It's actually his opponents who are ignoring everything else, and thus them who are being 'silly' I agree with 5ahj4g. First off, the OP used the term counter (even though it was in quotation marks). It is not usually the unit that gives people trouble, but how that unit is used and under what circumstances. Asking for help against a Protoss that uses a lot of stalkers is so general that a useful discussion will probably not take place. Some replays of losing to stalkers would help and then we could see why these stalkers are giving him trouble. | ||
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