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On December 15 2010 17:21 netherDrake wrote:
Many (including myself) may also be in a state of panic and forget to un-queue those units.
Exact same situation happened to me before and cost me a game.
What is the more common way to lose? Not being able to build a key unit/structure within seconds, or not having enough units?
Also, when you are talking about "build" ... a build means you know exactly when to build what to get to a certain point, e.g. that term is only ever meaningful up until 80-100 food, if that. In this context of course you only queue if you know exactly that it's ok to queue there. The queuing two probes and then chronoboosting them is a good example.
I'm talking about later, when you have enough bases (do you really have a planned out in detail build after you have 3 bases?, maybe as zerg, but those don't queue anyway). At that time there is so much else to attend to, that freeing up time is essential. Because not noticing something on the minimap, miscontrolling etc. is much more likely to cost you the game than having ~600-1000 min in queues.
Because even if you have to build something in an emergency, I don't think there is anything in the game that costs more than 400 min. And when do you need an emergency battlecruiser or mothership or nexus? And with running 3 bases, and maybe 100-200 min in the bank, this simply can't happen, you will always have enough within 5 seconds.
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The only unit I que is probes if Im trying to saturate a 3rd or 4th + base and am engaging.
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wow, most people didn't even read first post
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On December 15 2010 17:50 VMattyV wrote:
wow, most people didn't even read first post
We read it, OP is just wrong.
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On December 15 2010 17:45 Syben wrote:
The only unit I que is probes if Im trying to saturate a 3rd or 4th + base and am engaging.
yeah same. I pretty much do this for worker units.
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I'd rather have too many resources and go 'oh crap!' and build some more unit producing structures or get some upgrades than just spamming the queue.
The 'oh crap!' bit is also very educational as you're less likely to do it again afterwards.
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The only time you should queue units is when you're toss and you have multiple Nexuses, and you're chronoing out probes.
This is because probes when chrono boosted come out in less than 10 seconds gametime, and you waste your chrono if those probes don't come out immediately. Even so, good players will only queue the probes when 2-3 seconds remain on the last one creating, or when they chrono their Nexus and go to attack, since in a close micro battle you may spend 15 seconds on the fight instead of back at home properly producing probes.
No other time, IMO, should you queue units, because it's just not worth it.
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I disagree. In the same motion that you push 4 SSS for scv's (assuming you bind your command centers to 4, press 5 AADAAD for your rax, 6 TT for your Facts, 7 BB for your starports, etc. This gets you into the habit of always thinking about weather or not stuff is producing.
If you que up stuff, you'll end up having your stuff done, coming back to it 30+ seconds after everything is done, and you've just wasted 2 production cycles, not to mention that if you have the money to que that much stuff up, you have the money to produce more structures and get allot more stuff out faster.
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On December 15 2010 17:36 imbecile wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 17:09 Morfildur wrote:
Money queued still counts to your available money, you don't actually spend it until the unit you paid for is really in production, until then it's just hidden money and doesn't contribute to "keeping your money low".
I'm speaking of low level play here. But yes, queued money is not actually converted into unites yet. It bought you attention and mental capacity to concentrate on map awareness and/or micro. Improve one thing at a time. And I'd say queuing is a small price to pay to concentrate on other aspects of the game. The only thing it really conflicts with later in the game is to decide when to add another producing structure vs. another unit. Upgrades/expansions are decisions based on general game situation, not on your bank account. And this conflict is not really a conflict either, because there is an optimal mathematical solution for it: 1 Barracks costs 3 marines + 1 marine worth of SCV mining time, e.g. 4 marines in minerals, and ~2 marines worth in time. Reactor is ~1 marine cheaper, depending on how you evaluate gas. Coincidentally this is queue size. So if your queue is always full, and your money is still high, and you want more of that stuff, it's time to add another barracks. I'd say once you hit a ceiling with that approach, you are good enough to improve on it. Because early game you shouldn't queue anyway, and the better you get, the later you can push that "start queuing" time.
I'm sorry, but this is just a very bad method of approaching this game imho. Sure this might net you wins, and you might raise in level on the ladder, slowly but sturdly, but you wont improve that fast, and generally you will hit a skillscieling alot faster. If you think that habbits dont die hard, then you're wrong  .
It is not important that you cant focus on your micro and your mapawarness initially, because what will net you wins once you get abit better with macro is pure macro. Everyone on lower levels plays cute plays, and you will eventually just walk all over everyone up to low diamond with just good macro. And once your macro is natural you will be able to focus on the little things as sweet micro tricks and position and ofc map awarness, which will eventually be what defines you as a good player compared to others.
It will, as I wrote before, open up a whole new world of possible strategies because strategy is simply -> Where can I put my money, and where can I spend it, and when? -> Over a long term plan.
You will improve so much faster if you focus on the right things from the begining and it will give you the edge over all cutsy players all up to and above 2k Diamond.
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On December 15 2010 17:03 imbecile wrote:
For the lower league players, I often think obeying the "queuing is bad" rule bites them more than does them good. Because not using your minerals is worse than having a full queue.
You couldn't be more right, for lower league players, queueing is to be expected and is OK. Eventually they learn anyways so I'm going to have to agree with OP on this one.
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100% agree with first post.
The rule 'keep making workers & units out of all buildings' is MUCH more important then 'don't que stuff up'.
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Totally aggree. You have to know your weaknesess and cut corners accordingly. Whether its queing up when u know u cant handle lategame production or adding extra turrets when u know your mariners are usually out of position.
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On December 15 2010 18:15 Kyuki wrote:
...
It is not important that you cant focus on your micro and your mapawarness initially, because what will net you wins once you get abit better with macro is pure macro. Everyone on lower levels plays cute plays, and you will eventually just walk all over everyone up to low diamond with just good macro. And once your macro is natural you will be able to focus on the little things as sweet micro tricks and position and ofc map awarness, which will eventually be what defines you as a good player compared to others.
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That's the point. Especially because low level play is a lot of cutesy play, you need to be very aware of what is happening, because you will lose to it so often. And since you are talking about high level play, even Idra is bitten by it quite often. Yes, he is a supreme macro player, but Rain is in the final ...
How many unit producing structures you need per base is pretty much figured out. Once you know that, you just need to get that, which is pretty much an isolated and conscious one time decision.
I'm always for finding a "once and for all" solution to a problem, than to always scramble to keep it in check.
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The problem is if you're a new player and reading this, take this into your gameplay, learn to do things this way, you might get up to gold/platinum, but then you'll finally find you don't have enough stuff, and won't be able to identify why you don't have the money.
*spoiler alert*
It's the quing units you learned when you started. You're dumping money into something that won't make for awhile to keep your money low when you could/should have identified that time where your money started pooling as the time to add production buildings. When you finally start facing people with decent macro, you're going to ahve a HELL of a time figuring out this is your problem, and worse yet fixing it.
Don't fall into this trap. Spend the time to learn it right, it will yield better results in the long run, and won't take that long to learn. Take some losses, and just focus on never missing SCV's, it may seem silly to lose with a shitton of SCV's and few actual defenses, but that 5 SSS every 20 or so seconds just becomes ingrained in your head. Then make sure you're producing out of your rax's, etc. Before long you'll have more shit than your opponent knows how to deal with (untill you hit players who also know how to do this, and that's when the really cool play starts.
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I agree with Sil. I'm a Silver league player, and I generally have these rules when queuing:
If attacking, queue up 2 probes at a Nexus instead of 1
If on 2 bases, queue up 2 probes.
If on 3+ bases, queue up a bunch.
Never queue up military units.
I need to work on my first and second rules.
Of course, the exception is if a unit is like, 2-3 seconds from finishing, since I have imperfect timing. I'm also Protoss, so the only units I could queue up are tech units.
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On December 15 2010 18:35 imbecile wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 18:15 Kyuki wrote:
...
It is not important that you cant focus on your micro and your mapawarness initially, because what will net you wins once you get abit better with macro is pure macro. Everyone on lower levels plays cute plays, and you will eventually just walk all over everyone up to low diamond with just good macro. And once your macro is natural you will be able to focus on the little things as sweet micro tricks and position and ofc map awarness, which will eventually be what defines you as a good player compared to others.
...
That's the point. Especially because low level play is a lot of cutesy play, you need to be very aware of what is happening, because you will lose to it so often. And since you are talking about high level play, even Idra is bitten by it quite often. Yes, he is a supreme macro player, but Rain is in the final ... How many unit producing structures you need per base is pretty much figured out. Once you know that, you just need to get that, which is pretty much an isolated and conscious one time decision. I'm always for finding a "once and for all" solution to a problem, than to always scramble to keep it in check.
You're reading what I'm typing but you dont try to understand it it seems.
So what if you loose to cutsey play? Why would you care that you loose at all when you're in bronze level? It's the perfect place to learn how to get the basics down right.
Learn to play and stomp bronze->low diamond and have a good backbone to improve at higher levels where you need to be more aware and have better micro to distinguise yourself from other, better, players.
You say that structures per base etc is "figured out". This just does not matter, because regardless of how you do things you will not end up with a optimized base or second base because you do macro like shit and focus on your cutsey play. You will never be able to develop new strats yourself because all you follow is a order that you think is the right one and try to follow it blindly.
The issues will rarely be though that you don't know how your base/bases SHOULD look like, but rather how you actually go to how it looks like. A top player might get there a good 3 mins before a random scrub, but it might look similar. This difference will result in a major food and tech lead and we all know what that means.
I'm not saying you can't play the game like you point out, it's all fine and dandy and if you like that go ahead, but you will not improve within a longterm perspective. I'm gonna assume that anyone who is somewhat interested in climbing the ladders also want to improve at the game. If you don't then this discussion actually is pointless though.
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The rule to keep your money low is there for you to have the biggest possible economy and army size at any given point in time. If you queue your units, you are basically behind in army/economy size by the amount of money invested in the queued units. It means that even on one base, if you have 3 barracks with a full queue, you will have an army that could have been 12 units stronger if you didn't queue. Giving advice like that is plain bad - you are saying that low level players are bad anyway, so they may as well keep making basic mistakes and not worry about it.
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Imo, Queueing a few units for most players out there is imo ok. I'd rather see a player with 3 in queue than seeing him missing two seconds of build time every time he's going back to his rax.
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depends on what's beeing queue'd too.
probe/marine, maybe.
thor/bc ?? wow.
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You're not keeping your money low if you queue.
You're just keeping the number in the top of your screen low.
The point of keeping your actual money low is to maximize the value (in units, structures and tech) you have on the field.
Queued units do not contribute to the value because they don't exist yet and won't exist for some time (depending on queue length).
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EPT
