EPT[G] Speedray PvZ - Page 2
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unaliased
United States83 Posts
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Boysarn
Sweden77 Posts
However I can see the potential in this build if they allow it to go to lategame, very deadly indeed. Curious tho how it would do vs hydra ling/infestor, my tech choice if I was to come up against it (or I would probably aim for a early bust). Glhf | ||
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xs101
Romania86 Posts
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Douillos
France3195 Posts
On December 07 2010 18:25 eth3n wrote: seems like it... it makes VRs incredibly less useful for harass (and easier to fungal) and will prevent P from letting the VRs stray too far from his base at all before reaching critical mass, allowing much easier 2 base contain (which is what OP mentions as the most annoying weakness of this strat anyway). I mean at least thats what comes to mind... IMO voids are useless for harass, phenix's just give much more of a hard time... VR for me has to be incorporated for maximum efficiency... | ||
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kyarisan
United States347 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
The actual proper counter to this strat is simply mass corruptors. Corruptors ARE slightly cost effective against voidrays with the use of corruption (and having equal armor upgrades to voidray attack upgrades) and are actually even easier to mass then corruptors. They are also fast enough to deal with voidray harass and also deal with the colossi. Hydra, corruptors, with roach or ling as mineral outlet can beat a voidray colossus combo quite well. As zerg the proper counter to this is simply to get fast lair skipping ling speed(which is the best option against a forge FE anyways except for a garanteed bust) and then getting super quick hydra with perhaps 1 extra queen to defend against the first 2 voids. Then zerg can push or threaten to push while getting a third. IF you went 2 stargate voidrays it's actually quite difficult to stop a hydra push especially if they threaten overlord drop as well. I actually think that zealot/templar/voidray is a better combo then voidray/colossi. Voidray colossi is easier to start early on but can simply be countered by hydra/corruptor especially as zerg has a less gas heavy army so has a much more efficient economy. By using zealots+templar instead of colossi you are actually reintroducing minerals as a effective resource AND you get to use your super fast forge and council to get quick upgrades. 1-1 chargelots do great against hydra as well (+1 attack lets zealots 5 shot a hydra instead of 6 shot and +1 armor is good to survive a bit longer). Adding in templar then helps vs the critical hydra/roach masses (when zealots start to bump in to eachother). Either way I think speedrays are actually a bit OP lategame vs zerg now (as it's near impossible to defend and they are great main army units as well) and taking team games into consideration it's a fine choice they actually removed the tech. I do think they could have lowered the fleet beacon cost as well though since that's even more useless now and it would definately be nice to see carriers/motherships a bit more instead of being used as a mere insult unit. After the patch mass voidray will die out in favor of phoenix harass imo. Phoenixes are slightly better at harass vs a good player imo (lower damage potential but much faster) and they are also slightly better to hold off hydra. The nail in the coffin for this strategy though is that phoenix will be building much faster soon so phoenix harass will probably be possible from 1 stargate whereas voidray balls definately need 2. Also fungal change is probably being reverted, but i don't think it matters as much for air harass strategies without fungal hitting air these kind of strategies would simply be OP with the state of hydra's. (hydra's need a buff). | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
The only ways I know to beat it are muta/ling or all-inning... Its a very solid build. | ||
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xs101
Romania86 Posts
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
Didn't like the blind 15 Nex Forge FE on Xel'Naga Caverns though, you didn't have any unit out until 6:40 lol. You got lucky that the Zerg just took a third base and droned, because he could have run pretty much any attacking unit into your mineral lines and you'd be dead  | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
It is very clear that gas is the restrictive resource in the build so using gateways and zealots as a mineral dump helps so you can push out a bit earlier. I also build the an initial robo when resources allow after the 2 stargates just for an observer to stop creep spread and allow for a quicker colossi transition when I scout/suspect hydras. Early robo also helps in securing your 3rd with a warp prism on island expos which is possible on LT and Scrap Station, two maps which I like to use this build on. It's also safe to expand on the map with the shared expo between backdoor rocks (forgot map name) if the rocks on the other side hasn't been knocked down. | ||
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Shifft
Canada1085 Posts
On December 08 2010 02:46 Skyro wrote: I also build the an initial robo when resources allow after the 2 stargates just for an observer to stop creep spread and allow for a quicker colossi transition when I scout/suspect hydras. I've been actually going 1 robo 1 stargate after expanding lately and it's been working great. The Phoenix response is a bit slow because you need time to add the second stargate, but next patch that shouldn't be a problem. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On December 07 2010 22:34 Markwerf wrote: Yes this strategy is very nice but only good on maps with a easy forge FE, which are LT (not close spawn), shakuras and jungle. Meta cross spawn and scrap station are also somewhat possible, on other maps this is just suicide. The actual proper counter to this strat is simply mass corruptors. Corruptors ARE slightly cost effective against voidrays with the use of corruption (and having equal armor upgrades to voidray attack upgrades) and are actually even easier to mass then corruptors. They are also fast enough to deal with voidray harass and also deal with the colossi. Hydra, corruptors, with roach or ling as mineral outlet can beat a voidray colossus combo quite well. As zerg the proper counter to this is simply to get fast lair skipping ling speed(which is the best option against a forge FE anyways except for a garanteed bust) and then getting super quick hydra with perhaps 1 extra queen to defend against the first 2 voids. Then zerg can push or threaten to push while getting a third. IF you went 2 stargate voidrays it's actually quite difficult to stop a hydra push especially if they threaten overlord drop as well. I actually think that zealot/templar/voidray is a better combo then voidray/colossi. Voidray colossi is easier to start early on but can simply be countered by hydra/corruptor especially as zerg has a less gas heavy army so has a much more efficient economy. By using zealots+templar instead of colossi you are actually reintroducing minerals as a effective resource AND you get to use your super fast forge and council to get quick upgrades. 1-1 chargelots do great against hydra as well (+1 attack lets zealots 5 shot a hydra instead of 6 shot and +1 armor is good to survive a bit longer). Adding in templar then helps vs the critical hydra/roach masses (when zealots start to bump in to eachother). Either way I think speedrays are actually a bit OP lategame vs zerg now (as it's near impossible to defend and they are great main army units as well) and taking team games into consideration it's a fine choice they actually removed the tech. I do think they could have lowered the fleet beacon cost as well though since that's even more useless now and it would definately be nice to see carriers/motherships a bit more instead of being used as a mere insult unit. After the patch mass voidray will die out in favor of phoenix harass imo. Phoenixes are slightly better at harass vs a good player imo (lower damage potential but much faster) and they are also slightly better to hold off hydra. The nail in the coffin for this strategy though is that phoenix will be building much faster soon so phoenix harass will probably be possible from 1 stargate whereas voidray balls definately need 2. Also fungal change is probably being reverted, but i don't think it matters as much for air harass strategies without fungal hitting air these kind of strategies would simply be OP with the state of hydra's. (hydra's need a buff). I think you're missing a key concept of this build, which is the fact that you don't need to be aggressive at all with this build. Your goal is to get to 200/200, not to win with some mid-game colossus/void ray combo. That's why the correct mineral dump are cannons, not zealots. Zealot/templar/void is a good aggressive mid-game combo, but cannon/colossus/void is a much better defensive combo for securing expos and turtling to 200/200. Likewise, because of those cannons, I don't know if I agree with you that mass corruptors are the best answer to this. If you're going to challenge the void ball with corruptors, you'll need to invest a LOT in corruptors, which don't do very well against cannons. And if your hydras don't have roach backup, they die pretty quickly to colossus. You could say that hydra/roach/corruptor works, and it does, but that's pretty standard.... And again, phoenixes are not going to replace void rays after the patch because this is a late game strategy - whether you're harassing with phoenix or void rays at the beginning of the game has little effect on this build. | ||
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dOpa
United States166 Posts
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On December 08 2010 08:03 dOpa wrote: it's a really strong strat and you don't want to make gateway units that just get slaughtered by hydras(waste of money). but the biggest reason you don't want to make gw units is because it eats into your supply and makes your VR collosi deathball weaker by having less collosi/VR when you max out What? That's completely wrong. Voids get slaughtered much faster than stalkers do vs hydra. You're actually saving money here. And this build isn't one where you max to 200/200 off of only 2 bases. You're going to have 3-5 bases by then, and you'll have enough income to easily replace stalkers with voids as you're getting to 200/200. You can even sac them if you want, it shouldn't matter. If you don't make gateway units, it should be for other reasons, such as: you want to maintain air superiority if they go the spire muta/corruptor route, or you want a stronger harass force/more deadly backstab threat to keep Zergs in their base. | ||
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dOpa
United States166 Posts
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
If you understand that your income is pretty high with this build, why should having stalkers in your army be a big deal? Just sac them and replace with voids when you get close to 200/200. You're not going to have that many left by late game anyway. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
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dOpa
United States166 Posts
i'm 2500+ diamond and get paired against 2700+ zergs, so up to you to believe me or not | ||
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Shifft
Canada1085 Posts
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/113683-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis I think opening 1 stargate 1 robo after your expansion like this is super flexible and can pretty much deal with anything the zerg tries if you scout appropriately. In this replay you don't really see hallucination use because the zerg tries to roach bust right around when it finishes, but normally right when that finishes researching you can find out exactly what the zerg is doing and respond appropriately (add a second stargate for spire, tech colossus immediately for hydras). Basically you don't ever have to attack, because once your upgraded stalker+colossus+void ray death ball is finished you can kill entire maxed zerg armies twice over. | ||
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`Zapdos
United States935 Posts
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