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On December 20 2010 18:34 ChickenLips wrote:
Ok, i can save all you guys even contemplating this strategy.
1) Z can easily scout it and adapt his BO to his liking since you do not prevent Stargate scouting by air.
2) P CANNOT NEVER scout a Zs gameplan until his first phoenix is out (8:25).
3) Z goes for hydra/ling bust and hits at around 8:30-9:00 with 10 hydras, speed overlords and 20 lings. At this point Protoss has 3 cannons and 2 air units out (1 phoenix, 1 voidray)
instant loss every single time.
I have regularly beaten a practice partner with hydra busts when he went for 2 stargate openings and even crushed someone who did it to me on ladder. It's not viable, period.
To be safe against this kind of 2 base you have to put around 5-8 cannons at your front BLINDLY. Then Z comes 1 min later with OLs and drops all his shit into your main while you still have nothing more than a few stargate units and 8 cannons in your natural.
1. unless you are spawning in close air positions (in which case the build will work much more effictevely), zerg wont be able to scout you before its too late.
2. you scout earlygame and you can poke to see how zs defences are, not to mention how many bases he has at all times.
3. i actually agree with this, as long as you are referring to fe and then 2 stargate. i find that against z the best strategy is to get a stargate asap and you can have your first VR at around 5:30. aat this point zerg will have 1 or 2 queens (possibly three), and if you managed to keep his queen count down while keeping your vr alive youll soon reach a critical mass for them. the key in this is using your gateway units to snipe the queens and once they are dead use your vr to just kill everything zerg has. if you ever get to the point where you have more vrs than zerg has queens, victory is guaranteed unless hydras are added for support (which can be easily prevented by continual harass
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what the fuck this build is so ridicilously imbalanced ... if properly executed the zerg has no_fucking_chance to win = o
and they are thinking about removing fungal vs air ... wtf is going on, i don`t understand it
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On December 21 2010 14:38 nick00bot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2010 18:34 ChickenLips wrote:
Ok, i can save all you guys even contemplating this strategy.
1) Z can easily scout it and adapt his BO to his liking since you do not prevent Stargate scouting by air.
2) P CANNOT NEVER scout a Zs gameplan until his first phoenix is out (8:25).
3) Z goes for hydra/ling bust and hits at around 8:30-9:00 with 10 hydras, speed overlords and 20 lings. At this point Protoss has 3 cannons and 2 air units out (1 phoenix, 1 voidray)
instant loss every single time.
I have regularly beaten a practice partner with hydra busts when he went for 2 stargate openings and even crushed someone who did it to me on ladder. It's not viable, period.
To be safe against this kind of 2 base you have to put around 5-8 cannons at your front BLINDLY. Then Z comes 1 min later with OLs and drops all his shit into your main while you still have nothing more than a few stargate units and 8 cannons in your natural. 1. unless you are spawning in close air positions (in which case the build will work much more effictevely), zerg wont be able to scout you before its too late. 2. you scout earlygame and you can poke to see how zs defences are, not to mention how many bases he has at all times. 3. i actually agree with this, as long as you are referring to fe and then 2 stargate. i find that against z the best strategy is to get a stargate asap and you can have your first VR at around 5:30. aat this point zerg will have 1 or 2 queens (possibly three), and if you managed to keep his queen count down while keeping your vr alive youll soon reach a critical mass for them. the key in this is using your gateway units to snipe the queens and once they are dead use your vr to just kill everything zerg has. if you ever get to the point where you have more vrs than zerg has queens, victory is guaranteed unless hydras are added for support (which can be easily prevented by continual harass
How ? When u scout double stargate its about time when u have already 45-50 drones so it should be too late for hydra bust and you CAN afford canon spamming anyways so you defend with ease.
I don`t think hydra bust is an option unless u go for it before you know its dual stargate.
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On December 21 2010 11:13 Skyro wrote:Here is the only recent replay I have: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/118692-1v1-protoss-zerg-scrap-stationMy stargate is a little bit late, but you can see the rough timing. My opponent is like a 2400-2500 rated zerg player, so mid-diamond. He has a weird reaction to my FE though, going for both spire and hydra den at the same time and not really focusing on his economy much. You can see I scout the spire but not the den with my suicide probe, so I spend some time pumping phoenix a bit before transitioning into robo tech. I pump out an initial void ray to deny any potential 3rd hatch but he didn't make a fast 3rd so it just became part of my army. Like I said I deviate a lot from the OP's unit composition as I only really make multiple voids if corruptors come into play. I've practiced many iterations of this FE into stargate opener and right now you seem to have to toss down 2 stargates in case of mutas, but with the patch with reduced phoenix build time I may be able to get away with 1 stargate but I will need to test it out.
ugh man, your first stargate unit finishes at 8:30. if its a little bit late, post one where you think youve executed it perfectly.
you make exactly 1 zealot with a completely tight walloff. how are you going to prevent roaches killing every single building with their +1 range?
If Z wanted he could have every single inch of your base scouted by OL as you make no units to prevent such scouting.
at 9:00 you have 3 stargate units done and 1 zealot. Please explain to me how you are holding off 10 hydras or can even begin to outnumber them?
I go for lair before ling speed which is a viable response to something like nexus first since it gives me really fast overseer scouting and most nexus first attacks dont happen before 9 to 10 min so im able to respond to those in time (burrow is a quick upgrade and completely shuts down 6gate)
Anways, you see 13 hydras on the way to his base at 8:50 with 6 more making. I am really interested in how you go from 1 zealot + 3 stargate units at 9:00 to defending 13 hydras on creep 30 seconds later.
You need something do defend such simple all-ins, even as P, if you go for such a greedy build. If you blindly make more defenses it weakens your play so much that it becomes bad vs. simple stuff like double expanding etc.
Anyways, I'm done with this discussion, I have better things to do than argue stupid P builds on the internet. Good day sir!
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-175488.jpg)
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On December 22 2010 00:03 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2010 11:13 Skyro wrote:Here is the only recent replay I have: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/118692-1v1-protoss-zerg-scrap-stationMy stargate is a little bit late, but you can see the rough timing. My opponent is like a 2400-2500 rated zerg player, so mid-diamond. He has a weird reaction to my FE though, going for both spire and hydra den at the same time and not really focusing on his economy much. You can see I scout the spire but not the den with my suicide probe, so I spend some time pumping phoenix a bit before transitioning into robo tech. I pump out an initial void ray to deny any potential 3rd hatch but he didn't make a fast 3rd so it just became part of my army. Like I said I deviate a lot from the OP's unit composition as I only really make multiple voids if corruptors come into play. I've practiced many iterations of this FE into stargate opener and right now you seem to have to toss down 2 stargates in case of mutas, but with the patch with reduced phoenix build time I may be able to get away with 1 stargate but I will need to test it out. ugh man, your first stargate unit finishes at 8:30. if its a little bit late, post one where you think youve executed it perfectly. you make exactly 1 zealot with a completely tight walloff. how are you going to prevent roaches killing every single building with their +1 range? If Z wanted he could have every single inch of your base scouted by OL as you make no units to prevent such scouting. at 9:00 you have 3 stargate units done and 1 zealot. Please explain to me how you are holding off 10 hydras or can even begin to outnumber them? I go for lair before ling speed which is a viable response to something like nexus first since it gives me really fast overseer scouting and most nexus first attacks dont happen before 9 to 10 min so im able to respond to those in time (burrow is a quick upgrade and completely shuts down 6gate) Anways, you see 13 hydras on the way to his base at 8:50 with 6 more making. I am really interested in how you go from 1 zealot + 3 stargate units at 9:00 to defending 13 hydras on creep 30 seconds later. You need something do defend such simple all-ins, even as P, if you go for such a greedy build. If you blindly make more defenses it weakens your play so much that it becomes bad vs. simple stuff like double expanding etc. Anyways, I'm done with this discussion, I have better things to do than argue stupid P builds on the internet. Good day sir!
First off your arguement makes absolutely no sense. It's like me seeing a replay you going mass roaches all game and say the protoss player should've went mass immortals. I can literally watch any replay and say if X player did this or made this he would've won beat that composition. Unfortunately games do not work that way.
For example you only note when my first stargate unit comes out. You don't question why it was a void ray (so obviously it takes longer to make)? Well let me explain so you can understand, it is because I scouted the spire earlier with my probe, no immediately threat of hydras. Thus I didn't need to do any additional scouting of his tech, I was more concerned with super early thirds. Hence the void ray. However he did not make an early 3rd, so I pull back.
I've defended roach pushes countless times with that wall-off. The only vulnerability is the cornor of one building, which can fit 2 roaches positioned perfectly. My first void will be out to defend vs any 2-base roach play before he can take down my wall. Void Rays are the same speed as non-upgraded roaches off creep. Once my first void ray pops all your roaches at my base are essentially dead.
And obviously I would react differently if I saw an all-in. Most all-ins are when the zerg player reacts to my FE by 1-basing. But did you not see me scout the spire. I know the muta timing. So I made phoenixes. Then my phoenixes scout hydra, so I make transition into colossi. I don't know about you but I don't do the exact same build order 15 mins into the game.
I could obviously also make a stalker if I wanted to prevent OL scouting. I saw no real need since he didn't scout but moreso the fact I already scouted the spire. If I scout the spire I know I pretty much have the game in the bag.
And I have no freaking idea how your hydras will be on creep while attacking my base. You think I will let you make a creep highway straight to my base with OLs or something when I have phoenixes on the field? And you act as though my phoenixes will not delay hydras by killing drones, queens or picking off stray hydras. If you actually read what I said about which maps I used this build on, you would realize that the rush distance is enormous for all the maps (LT, Shakuras, Jungle, Scrap) outside of close positions on LT, which I don't FE on obviously. The rush distance on LT is actually not great, but the build is still doable because the natural choke is so easy to defend with cannons and sentries.
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This is a 2300 diamond who claims to auto win against an opening created in the TSL house, used by tester and guineapig. Let that sink in.
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Actually.. What could zergs do about this? Mass mutas in response, or mass hydras like the players did. Or just be crazy agressive. Interesting... I'll have to test it out later.
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On December 22 2010 01:41 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 00:03 ChickenLips wrote:On December 21 2010 11:13 Skyro wrote:Here is the only recent replay I have: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/118692-1v1-protoss-zerg-scrap-stationMy stargate is a little bit late, but you can see the rough timing. My opponent is like a 2400-2500 rated zerg player, so mid-diamond. He has a weird reaction to my FE though, going for both spire and hydra den at the same time and not really focusing on his economy much. You can see I scout the spire but not the den with my suicide probe, so I spend some time pumping phoenix a bit before transitioning into robo tech. I pump out an initial void ray to deny any potential 3rd hatch but he didn't make a fast 3rd so it just became part of my army. Like I said I deviate a lot from the OP's unit composition as I only really make multiple voids if corruptors come into play. I've practiced many iterations of this FE into stargate opener and right now you seem to have to toss down 2 stargates in case of mutas, but with the patch with reduced phoenix build time I may be able to get away with 1 stargate but I will need to test it out. ugh man, your first stargate unit finishes at 8:30. if its a little bit late, post one where you think youve executed it perfectly. you make exactly 1 zealot with a completely tight walloff. how are you going to prevent roaches killing every single building with their +1 range? If Z wanted he could have every single inch of your base scouted by OL as you make no units to prevent such scouting. at 9:00 you have 3 stargate units done and 1 zealot. Please explain to me how you are holding off 10 hydras or can even begin to outnumber them? I go for lair before ling speed which is a viable response to something like nexus first since it gives me really fast overseer scouting and most nexus first attacks dont happen before 9 to 10 min so im able to respond to those in time (burrow is a quick upgrade and completely shuts down 6gate) Anways, you see 13 hydras on the way to his base at 8:50 with 6 more making. I am really interested in how you go from 1 zealot + 3 stargate units at 9:00 to defending 13 hydras on creep 30 seconds later. You need something do defend such simple all-ins, even as P, if you go for such a greedy build. If you blindly make more defenses it weakens your play so much that it becomes bad vs. simple stuff like double expanding etc. Anyways, I'm done with this discussion, I have better things to do than argue stupid P builds on the internet. Good day sir! First off your arguement makes absolutely no sense. It's like me seeing a replay you going mass roaches all game and say the protoss player should've went mass immortals. I can literally watch any replay and say if X player did this or made this he would've won beat that composition. Unfortunately games do not work that way. For example you only note when my first stargate unit comes out. You don't question why it was a void ray (so obviously it takes longer to make)? Well let me explain so you can understand, it is because I scouted the spire earlier with my probe, no immediately threat of hydras. Thus I didn't need to do any additional scouting of his tech, I was more concerned with super early thirds. Hence the void ray. However he did not make an early 3rd, so I pull back. I've defended roach pushes countless times with that wall-off. The only vulnerability is the cornor of one building, which can fit 2 roaches positioned perfectly. My first void will be out to defend vs any 2-base roach play before he can take down my wall. Void Rays are the same speed as non-upgraded roaches off creep. Once my first void ray pops all your roaches at my base are essentially dead. And obviously I would react differently if I saw an all-in. Most all-ins are when the zerg player reacts to my FE by 1-basing. But did you not see me scout the spire. I know the muta timing. So I made phoenixes. Then my phoenixes scout hydra, so I make transition into colossi. I don't know about you but I don't do the exact same build order 15 mins into the game. I could obviously also make a stalker if I wanted to prevent OL scouting. I saw no real need since he didn't scout but moreso the fact I already scouted the spire. If I scout the spire I know I pretty much have the game in the bag. And I have no freaking idea how your hydras will be on creep while attacking my base. You think I will let you make a creep highway straight to my base with OLs or something when I have phoenixes on the field? And you act as though my phoenixes will not delay hydras by killing drones, queens or picking off stray hydras. If you actually read what I said about which maps I used this build on, you would realize that the rush distance is enormous for all the maps (LT, Shakuras, Jungle, Scrap) outside of close positions on LT, which I don't FE on obviously. The rush distance on LT is actually not great, but the build is still doable because the natural choke is so easy to defend with cannons and sentries.
Your post shows that you
1. have not watched the replay
2. dont understand Z timings
3. dont understand how quickly Z can build up if left unharassed
glhf with your strategy though, i hope you have as much success as you can before people start insta-winning against it.
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On December 22 2010 02:13 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 01:41 Skyro wrote:On December 22 2010 00:03 ChickenLips wrote:On December 21 2010 11:13 Skyro wrote:Here is the only recent replay I have: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/118692-1v1-protoss-zerg-scrap-stationMy stargate is a little bit late, but you can see the rough timing. My opponent is like a 2400-2500 rated zerg player, so mid-diamond. He has a weird reaction to my FE though, going for both spire and hydra den at the same time and not really focusing on his economy much. You can see I scout the spire but not the den with my suicide probe, so I spend some time pumping phoenix a bit before transitioning into robo tech. I pump out an initial void ray to deny any potential 3rd hatch but he didn't make a fast 3rd so it just became part of my army. Like I said I deviate a lot from the OP's unit composition as I only really make multiple voids if corruptors come into play. I've practiced many iterations of this FE into stargate opener and right now you seem to have to toss down 2 stargates in case of mutas, but with the patch with reduced phoenix build time I may be able to get away with 1 stargate but I will need to test it out. ugh man, your first stargate unit finishes at 8:30. if its a little bit late, post one where you think youve executed it perfectly. you make exactly 1 zealot with a completely tight walloff. how are you going to prevent roaches killing every single building with their +1 range? If Z wanted he could have every single inch of your base scouted by OL as you make no units to prevent such scouting. at 9:00 you have 3 stargate units done and 1 zealot. Please explain to me how you are holding off 10 hydras or can even begin to outnumber them? I go for lair before ling speed which is a viable response to something like nexus first since it gives me really fast overseer scouting and most nexus first attacks dont happen before 9 to 10 min so im able to respond to those in time (burrow is a quick upgrade and completely shuts down 6gate) Anways, you see 13 hydras on the way to his base at 8:50 with 6 more making. I am really interested in how you go from 1 zealot + 3 stargate units at 9:00 to defending 13 hydras on creep 30 seconds later. You need something do defend such simple all-ins, even as P, if you go for such a greedy build. If you blindly make more defenses it weakens your play so much that it becomes bad vs. simple stuff like double expanding etc. Anyways, I'm done with this discussion, I have better things to do than argue stupid P builds on the internet. Good day sir! First off your arguement makes absolutely no sense. It's like me seeing a replay you going mass roaches all game and say the protoss player should've went mass immortals. I can literally watch any replay and say if X player did this or made this he would've won beat that composition. Unfortunately games do not work that way. For example you only note when my first stargate unit comes out. You don't question why it was a void ray (so obviously it takes longer to make)? Well let me explain so you can understand, it is because I scouted the spire earlier with my probe, no immediately threat of hydras. Thus I didn't need to do any additional scouting of his tech, I was more concerned with super early thirds. Hence the void ray. However he did not make an early 3rd, so I pull back. I've defended roach pushes countless times with that wall-off. The only vulnerability is the cornor of one building, which can fit 2 roaches positioned perfectly. My first void will be out to defend vs any 2-base roach play before he can take down my wall. Void Rays are the same speed as non-upgraded roaches off creep. Once my first void ray pops all your roaches at my base are essentially dead. And obviously I would react differently if I saw an all-in. Most all-ins are when the zerg player reacts to my FE by 1-basing. But did you not see me scout the spire. I know the muta timing. So I made phoenixes. Then my phoenixes scout hydra, so I make transition into colossi. I don't know about you but I don't do the exact same build order 15 mins into the game. I could obviously also make a stalker if I wanted to prevent OL scouting. I saw no real need since he didn't scout but moreso the fact I already scouted the spire. If I scout the spire I know I pretty much have the game in the bag. And I have no freaking idea how your hydras will be on creep while attacking my base. You think I will let you make a creep highway straight to my base with OLs or something when I have phoenixes on the field? And you act as though my phoenixes will not delay hydras by killing drones, queens or picking off stray hydras. If you actually read what I said about which maps I used this build on, you would realize that the rush distance is enormous for all the maps (LT, Shakuras, Jungle, Scrap) outside of close positions on LT, which I don't FE on obviously. The rush distance on LT is actually not great, but the build is still doable because the natural choke is so easy to defend with cannons and sentries. Your post shows that you 1. have not watched the replay 2. dont understand Z timings 3. dont understand how quickly Z can build up if left unharassed glhf with your strategy though, i hope you have as much success as you can before people start insta-winning against it.
1) You are questioning if I don't know what happened in my own replay? ok bud
2) Yes I don't know the timing of mutas when I spot the spire is ~9-10 mins. Yes I don't know hydras will be delayed when I spot his small muta army. Yes I don't know 2 base roach will be at my door ~7-8 mins depending on map, around the time my first void pops out and I own all your roaches. Yes I don't know the vulnerable spots in my wall-off, even though I spelled out exactly where they were in my post above.
3) What you don't seem to understand is how quickly a P can build if left unharassed. Protoss can easily keep up macro-wise via CB on equal bases.
And yes the strategy is fun and at least at my (and your) level there is nobody insta-winning vs me. Oh and btw there are actually quite a few pro replays of protoss players going FE into double stargate. It's actually starting to become a pretty popular opener after FE, but you wouldn't know that since you don't need to worry about it, you just hit your insta-win button.
edit: I just got back and watched your replay. Seems you are testing fast tech hydra vs fast tech HT, so ok (I agree with you fast tech HT isn't really viable). I don't see how this tells much considering he is testing something completely different (he doesn't even use his stargate for anything to scout half-assed, he could've just used hallucination), but some things to note:
-Your practice partner's initial FE is fine, but I hope in a real game he would scout with a probe to check army composition ~7 mins in (this is where you will decide to pump a void or phoenix initially).
-You actually did not make any lings to stop a scouting which I assume isn't what you do in a real game because that would be ridiculous. You also did not research ling speed. I somehow doubt you do this in a real game either. These are things that, you know, would delay your hydras.
-Also you do cut drones completely once your den so if he holds w/ cannons, he will be ahead.
-Your practice partner only made 2 cannons to simply to strictly test fast HT vs fast hydra, because 2 cannons cannot even hold a 2 base roach rush (you can get a void out in time, but they will do significant damage to you if you don't have at least 3+ cannons). If you go through my past posts I have stated time and time again that yes, if they fast tech hydras you need to make quite a few cannons but that it is still scoutable/defendable and you don't have to make them blind. Just know the timings and scout with a probe and then initial phoenix if necessary.
Essentially your build is optimized to get hydras out ASAP. I understand that was the purpose of your testing. I hope you don't really believe you can extrapolate that into a real game scenario, where you will actually have to make lings and decide on things like ling speed and/or roach warren before lair or not. See if I were you, I could've just said that build is insta-loss vs 6-gate, but I know things can play out different in a real game. A protoss' build order is wide open after he FE's, and I was simply pointing out that a double stargate opener after FE is a very solid opener. If you react correctly to fast hydras you come about even (depends on a ton of factors here obviously) going into the late game, which I think most agree favors the protoss player. But not only that, but stargate opener completely shuts down all other common zerg responses HARD if played correctly (void stops early 3rds and roaches, phoenix shut down muta).
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On December 22 2010 02:13 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 01:41 Skyro wrote:On December 22 2010 00:03 ChickenLips wrote:On December 21 2010 11:13 Skyro wrote:Here is the only recent replay I have: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/118692-1v1-protoss-zerg-scrap-stationMy stargate is a little bit late, but you can see the rough timing. My opponent is like a 2400-2500 rated zerg player, so mid-diamond. He has a weird reaction to my FE though, going for both spire and hydra den at the same time and not really focusing on his economy much. You can see I scout the spire but not the den with my suicide probe, so I spend some time pumping phoenix a bit before transitioning into robo tech. I pump out an initial void ray to deny any potential 3rd hatch but he didn't make a fast 3rd so it just became part of my army. Like I said I deviate a lot from the OP's unit composition as I only really make multiple voids if corruptors come into play. I've practiced many iterations of this FE into stargate opener and right now you seem to have to toss down 2 stargates in case of mutas, but with the patch with reduced phoenix build time I may be able to get away with 1 stargate but I will need to test it out. ugh man, your first stargate unit finishes at 8:30. if its a little bit late, post one where you think youve executed it perfectly. you make exactly 1 zealot with a completely tight walloff. how are you going to prevent roaches killing every single building with their +1 range? If Z wanted he could have every single inch of your base scouted by OL as you make no units to prevent such scouting. at 9:00 you have 3 stargate units done and 1 zealot. Please explain to me how you are holding off 10 hydras or can even begin to outnumber them? I go for lair before ling speed which is a viable response to something like nexus first since it gives me really fast overseer scouting and most nexus first attacks dont happen before 9 to 10 min so im able to respond to those in time (burrow is a quick upgrade and completely shuts down 6gate) Anways, you see 13 hydras on the way to his base at 8:50 with 6 more making. I am really interested in how you go from 1 zealot + 3 stargate units at 9:00 to defending 13 hydras on creep 30 seconds later. You need something do defend such simple all-ins, even as P, if you go for such a greedy build. If you blindly make more defenses it weakens your play so much that it becomes bad vs. simple stuff like double expanding etc. Anyways, I'm done with this discussion, I have better things to do than argue stupid P builds on the internet. Good day sir! First off your arguement makes absolutely no sense. It's like me seeing a replay you going mass roaches all game and say the protoss player should've went mass immortals. I can literally watch any replay and say if X player did this or made this he would've won beat that composition. Unfortunately games do not work that way. For example you only note when my first stargate unit comes out. You don't question why it was a void ray (so obviously it takes longer to make)? Well let me explain so you can understand, it is because I scouted the spire earlier with my probe, no immediately threat of hydras. Thus I didn't need to do any additional scouting of his tech, I was more concerned with super early thirds. Hence the void ray. However he did not make an early 3rd, so I pull back. I've defended roach pushes countless times with that wall-off. The only vulnerability is the cornor of one building, which can fit 2 roaches positioned perfectly. My first void will be out to defend vs any 2-base roach play before he can take down my wall. Void Rays are the same speed as non-upgraded roaches off creep. Once my first void ray pops all your roaches at my base are essentially dead. And obviously I would react differently if I saw an all-in. Most all-ins are when the zerg player reacts to my FE by 1-basing. But did you not see me scout the spire. I know the muta timing. So I made phoenixes. Then my phoenixes scout hydra, so I make transition into colossi. I don't know about you but I don't do the exact same build order 15 mins into the game. I could obviously also make a stalker if I wanted to prevent OL scouting. I saw no real need since he didn't scout but moreso the fact I already scouted the spire. If I scout the spire I know I pretty much have the game in the bag. And I have no freaking idea how your hydras will be on creep while attacking my base. You think I will let you make a creep highway straight to my base with OLs or something when I have phoenixes on the field? And you act as though my phoenixes will not delay hydras by killing drones, queens or picking off stray hydras. If you actually read what I said about which maps I used this build on, you would realize that the rush distance is enormous for all the maps (LT, Shakuras, Jungle, Scrap) outside of close positions on LT, which I don't FE on obviously. The rush distance on LT is actually not great, but the build is still doable because the natural choke is so easy to defend with cannons and sentries. Your post shows that you 1. have not watched the replay 2. dont understand Z timings 3. dont understand how quickly Z can build up if left unharassed glhf with your strategy though, i hope you have as much success as you can before people start insta-winning against it.
Post a replay of your autowins vs that practice partner, I would like to see that because for now - I don`t fucking believe you.
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In my experience doing this build.. many corruptors with some ground forces mixed in shut it down pretty easily.
Am I wrong?
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aaaand how exactly do you keep your Collosous alive when theres nothing to block lings form surrounding? They die awefully(should I say awesomely?) fast when that happens.
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Why are you posting this? The only similarity Kiwikaki's strategy has to the one presented in the OP is that they both have Voidrays...
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I cannot anyone to use such a lame strat^^ Voidrays are just the pure essence of evilness. It's like "Oh I cant win a normal game...I should cheese my way up...!"
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without reading full post - I can testify that col/stalker/void/zealot army absolutely melted roach/hydra/corruptor when someone used it against me - I believe its a powerful combination if you have a chance to pull it off
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On December 22 2010 20:08 Igaryu85 wrote:
I cannot anyone to use such a lame strat^^ Voidrays are just the pure essence of evilness. It's like "Oh I cant win a normal game...I should cheese my way up...!"
I hope this is a joke. If not, you need to rethink what cheese is. Teching up to speedrays and collossus while taking three bases is not cheese. If harassing with rays is cheese, so is muta harass. So what do you want , toss to go templar or collassus every game against zerg?
I tried this last night (am only gold) and it was so much fun to play. The opponent even got a nydus worm in my base and after I fended it off abd I was still able to win. I wish i could have seen the look on his face when I attacked with 10 rays, 6 collassus and 2 carriers.
In short thanks for posting. I have to reread the OP to get more nuances.
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Can you rate my play? Didn't have a specific buildorder as this just came into my mind "hey let's try that speedrays build posted in TL for the lulz."
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-175700.jpg)
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Hey there! Just wanted to add my approval to this thread in general. I saw this go up in the Strategy Forum originally and - don't judge me! - kinda discounted it as a fad.
I saw GuineaPig's games and while I was impressed with them, up until two days ago I much preferred MC's Void Ray build. It's a similar concept (first VR denies scouts, Phoenix into base to see how he reacts) but it's a 1-gate Stargate --> 3-gate Stargate expo and after the Colossus tech-switch the Stargate goes largely unused unless Mutas come into play.
On Monday I was in a bit of a rut - Zergs at a ~2.6k level seemed to have learnt how to Roach/Hydra push me in the window between the expo and the Colossus transition and I was always playing on the back foot, so I gave this a go. By-and-large I followed Kiwi's build and skipped Colossi, using Sentries to minimise Hydra DPS against Voids and Hallucination instead of an early Phoenix to scout the response; I feel like the 3-gate Sentry expo allows you to rely on Voids a lot more and reduce the windows in which your tech-switches and expansions can be punished by eg. Roach/Hydra.
The long and short of it is that 2-Stargate Voids with a heavy Sentry count and light Zealot/Stalker is a 2-base army I feel cannot be denied a third at some point and if you delayed his third with Gateway mix/early Voids then you're in a ridiculously strong position until Infestors come out. Sadly although I've played a good few games with this now I don't feel like I've played the strategy to its fullest yet (slow on upgrades and forgetting cannons) so I'll hold off on posting any replays.
Very, very impressed. Excellent writeup of a solid, logical gameplan. Thanks very much! 
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the only way to beat mass speed rays is fully upgraded hydras. but the problem is with the colossi that the toss player adds. Only chance to win is breaking his early forge expand cus when he gets his death ball, there is no chance in hell with any unit composition to beat the protoss even if you have 8 bases to 3.
nerf this bullshit or buff zerg anti air.
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EPT
