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I'm 800 diamond
This was a strange game. I successfully defended a marine-scv all in with banelings which we see so often after GSL, then I droned up, made a 200 / 200 army and pushed.
But my push was retarded.. I put banelings and roaches in overlords and made a doom drop, but it just failed because the terran killed stuff just as they landed. Then it just went downwards.
It's not really necessary to watch the replay to help me, but I'm just at a loss at how to attack a terran base. If I wait him to leave his base he'll simply turtle to 200/200 and faceroll me, that I know.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/110477-1v1-terran-zerg-jungle-basin
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Tech to broods.. or get a nydus and wait until they leave there base.
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On November 30 2010 03:10 B34ST wrote:
Tech to broods.. or get a nydus and wait until they leave there base.
For endgame army 've thought of broodlords + hydralisk to assault a turtle terran. Hydras suck against tanks and most things, but I think their weakness is nullified by having broodlords.
Say he attacks with vikings, just pull blords back and shoo them away with hydras while the rest of his army is busy with the broodlings, especially affecting his tanks which he has to unsiege.
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~420 Bronze League Dude here, but isnt ZvT all about staying one expo ahead of Terran, and harassing with bangling drops on the mineral lines? Teching up to Broodlords or Ultras, and rofl stomping their bio-ball or mech based army?
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I'm not so much better than you lol, believe me. Maybe I just undervalue broodlords yes
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On November 30 2010 03:16 Sabin010 wrote:
~420 Bronze League Dude here, but isnt ZvT all about staying one expo ahead of Terran, and harassing with bangling drops on the mineral lines? Teching up to Broodlords or Ultras, and rofl stomping their bio-ball or mech based army?
you think it's that easy bud? tough to stay one expo ahead when I kill it everytime you make it..
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Expand like a mofo and tech to BL's/Ultras.
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As a T player I will tell you in many circumstances attacking a wall of siege tanks and such isn't the best idea. If Terran is turtling, take the map. But, you will need broodlords or ultras to kill a 200/200 army. If he attacks your expo and you know it's going down, try and hurt his economy too or else he will be too far ahead and you can't come back
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Just expand.... You can remake your army like instantly with enough larva/money. Just keep throwing army's at him. Or yeah just tech to BL's. whatever. A terran that turtles will never win against a zerg that knows what to do. It's just so bad.
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I'll just have to figure out what to do, hehe
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You don't attack a turtle at all.
All you do is contain him within his base and natural (will be difficult to prevent Terran from getting the natural with Siege Tanks) and then expand yourself like crazy.
That way, he will be on max 2 bases which will run out eventually and you'll have so much income that you can build a 200/200 army ten times over and he will only have the single 200/200 army.
Get hundreds of larvae at all your Hatcheries so that even if you lose the first 200/200 vs 200/200 battle, you can bring out another 200 before he can even march to your base.
Let him turtle and force him to come to you and demolish him when he does.
Just make sure he doesn't break out and takes any expansions, but a turtler will rarely do that and still be defined a turtler.
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You don't have to figure out what to do. If hes sitting on 2bases, take the map, tech to ultras/broods, make sure you get upgrades and then stockpile larva, when he pushes out with his 200/200 army it should be nearly a wash, terran 200/200 army does NOT crush 200/200 of ultras/broods ESP on an open field and make a new 200 army with all your stockpiled larva, GG.
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Thanks, Im gonna try to expand more and not be afraid of losses
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don't have time to watch replay (I am at work)
but in my opinion, the best way to 'attack' at turtling terran on 2 bases is to take all the other expansions on the map except for his most obvious choice for his third, and deny that expansion with everything you got.
eventually he'll run out of minerals and move out of his base...and when that happens you can afford to trade armies because you have better prod/econ than him.
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If a terran is turtling with the intention of eventually making a push with a 200/200 army, you may not want to attack, just expand as mentioned above and prepare the correct army composition
If the guy is being a douche by turtling in a base jam packed full of seige tanks and missle turrets and thors, with no intention of ever pushing out, the game is over and you just need to prove it.
You MUST get brood lords in this case. Ultras will not do. there is really no other good way to assault masses of siege tanks supported by marines and missile turrets on high ground.
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I often send in a few mutas to snipe their tanks, then your ground army has a better chance
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Never attack a turtle Terran. Expand to every avaliable base and get all upgrades/tech structures.
Then you can do what ever the fuck you want with him, make him your bitch =3
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Yep. If someone turtles, expand. If someone expands, attack. If someone attacks, turtle.  Nice basic principles of RTS.
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LOL that drop is so fail :p
Like the others said, stockpile larva, wait for terran to move out and then kill his army while he is on the move. You may lose your army, but he will retreat or try to attack with a damaged army at which point your new army will overwhelm him.
Also Jungle basin should be avoided if possible as zerg.
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On November 30 2010 04:04 Holgerius wrote:Yep. If someone turtles, expand. If someone expands, attack. If someone attacks, turtle. Nice basic principles of RTS.
The problem is, on ladder a lot zergs have stopped getting mutalisks, now they can't mass expand, because marine drops/banshees kill their shit.
References:
- http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens3/vod/1408
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There are two thing to think here...
How he turttle...
He will but thors... turrents... and Vikings... And will try to make battle Cruises to win the game... a Smart one will make Ghosts... To nuke...
come from the front door...
Is suicide...
You only can do if you got a Macro (macro = Production and some things else... Research about that...) 10 times better...
But you can win a fair battle...
"Pretend"...
How to do that... Simulates a big and nasty attack...
Remember in his base... he have constructions... and that will make he be slow... moving armies...
Came in front door whit Brood and Hidras.. its fine... But Attack Whit that still risk... Valkrians atak much far than hydras... If he got a good micro (per unit actions... research that...)... You will lose all!!!
So dont Go!
He can be pacient... and still on turttle..
A bad thing to you... but... if you simulate very well a attack... Using the fog to he calculate the total army you have in his front door... Dont forget the range of radar... But a Mass of 10 appear in his radar... Of ZERLINGS! And he will thing you have alot more...
make mutas... where he cant see... whit radar behind... mutas are fast...so rush whit mutas... try to kill the first line of torrents... and raze his SVC'S.... But dont Lose your mutas... When he goes... Whit valkirians... Run.... and Drops... Bombs... and ultras are good... But drenal zerlings are fine...
If he go outo of base whit than... FIGHT... Mutas are good against valkirians in good number...
So What he will need to do?
Lose his back in Base or?! try to move his army...
Remember that...
No terran i know... make his command whit guns... So zerlings will be fine...
Whe he moves his army...
Rush Whit your broods... and use yours... 10 zerlings... Rushing his front door... And calculate the damage... if that is low .... its because he make a very deep mistake...
Rush whit half your Hydras...
And remember... The turttle defend is dammed to fall...
You need to control the game... All comments here have a point....
so never stop production... when some thing go bad... you need to make changes.... Like... a Great back defence whit battle cruises... so then... Mutas are faster... divide and conquer...
whit 2 armyes... left and right of his base...
dont get close of his battle cruise... make he thing you are weaker... This will make him make a mistake some time...
but... If i realy can say something for you...
Whit Zerg... Dont let then came to late game... early you rock!
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The way to attack a turtling terran is to not attack him, as everyone else has said. Just get a contain up, take every base on the map. Tech to everything. Get every upgrade. 200/200 with 10k in the bank and 200 larvae waiting. Then just hammer one spot with broods/ultras/banes/roaches/whatever until he quits. The key is avoiding mass tank fire though. He will run out of vikings/marines/rauders/etc because they don't tank(lol) that well compared to their damage output. While 10 sieged tanks in a bunch can crap on 200 banelings and lose almost nothing.
Heck just going mass mutas for a couple 200/200 cycles will pretty much wreck him unless he has lots of thors too.
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In general, don't do a drop within direct attacking range of the enemy unless you have a reason (say, dropping banelings in the middle of bio balls or dropping roaches within siege tank range - they're all pretty obvious). Looking at this replay, you could have tried to drop at the expansion instead and you'd have easily killed his workers and orbital command. T usually cannot defend two places at once, so make sure to scout before you attack and strike where the defenses are weaker.
Also, make sure to inject larvae into all your hatcheries before you engage with any 200/200 army. This will allow you to rebuild quickly.
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On November 30 2010 04:13 Nyx wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 04:04 Holgerius wrote:Yep. If someone turtles, expand. If someone expands, attack. If someone attacks, turtle. Nice basic principles of RTS. The problem is, on ladder a lot zergs have stopped getting mutalisks, now they can't mass expand, because marine drops/banshees kill their shit. References: - http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens3/vod/1408
An Infestor and a few lings at each expo as well as a little map awareness should be able to atleast stall for time before your main army comes to clean up the harass. If you're fast enough you may even be able to fungle and Infested Terran dropships before they get a chance to unload.
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When a T is turtelling, you just want to focus in expanding, whithout allowing him to do so.
Then, use mutas or drops to pick off stray units or unprotected SCV's or buildings, taking care not to lose too many units yourself.
He will be forced to rebuild his lost units while starving in one base, and he will die slowly ^^
You can just get it done faster by throwing your armies at him, because if you have map control and a very stong economy (lots of expos), you'll just have SO much production capacity that he simply can't win against all those Zerg terrific waves 
GLHF^^
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From the Terran point of view it's the worst feeling when you've been staying Terran Turtling two base and scout with a Viking to find that zerg is on 5+ saturated bases with creep up to your doorstep.
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I think I heard IdrA in the state of the game podcast say it best. A lot of posters here are saying the same thing.
-----------------------------------------------------------Never Attack---------------------------------------------------------------
Just focus on macro and denying expansions. Get upgrades, tech, drone. Spread your overlords, and scout for tech every couple of minutes. Defend drops and pick of any stray units. Poke and prod, use drops if you wish, but never commit. Tanks are most easily dealt with when they're on the move
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Turtle terran is nearly impossible to break with out brood lords as I'm sure most people know specially with repair on planatery's you can't really attack into fortified expo's even with like 15 roaches and they have a planatary only lol. The thing I try to do is when you hit 200/200 you stack minerals and get your tech and upgrades in order for the eventual army dump into mass tech switch. You want to press there front some to get them at there 3rd or out front of there base then you have to try and hit production facilities. As your supply starts dropping you have to get your ultras or broods up as your roach/ling/bling dies so that you will be ready for the big counter that is surely going to come. You should have a huge advantage at this point because you should be about maxed on hi tier units as well as have taken out there ability mass units as quick if your drop worked. When they get there 3rd it's sorta good and bad because it will allow to drop or run to there main but you have to have the larva and minerals to reproduce as fast as they die. The idea is simple but I admit it is rather hard to do many times.
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Thanks all, as day9 says: when in doubt, make more drones
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Urgh, i hate turtlers! but yeah pretty much what a couple other guys said.I normally take every single single base avaliable and just run them dry and use ur superior minerals to get him. although Your macro might suffer a bit down the road.
Also, one game I played with a turtler i left one base left for him to take but i was watching it with an obs, and as soon as he landed there i came in with massive army and destroyed him and he gg'ed
xD
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Mass expand -> tech up like crazy -> get 200/200 BL's and/or ultras and win
Notice how I don't say to attack him? DON'T attack a turlting terran.... just expand/drone like crazy until you get a huge 200/200 teir 3 army so you can demolish him.. he will be on 1 base compared to your 5+ bases
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On November 30 2010 05:16 Zorkmid wrote:I think I heard IdrA in the state of the game podcast say it best. A lot of posters here are saying the same thing. -----------------------------------------------------------Never Attack---------------------------------------------------------------
Just focus on macro and denying expansions. Get upgrades, tech, drone. Spread your overlords, and scout for tech every couple of minutes. Defend drops and pick of any stray units. Poke and prod, use drops if you wish, but never commit. Tanks are most easily dealt with when they're on the move
This, in a nutshell.
Not being able to end the game in such situations can be frustrating, but you shouldn't allow these situations to lose you games due to impatience.
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watch the recent gsl3 ret vs thebestfou game. for mech terran, mass roach and tech to broods while taking every base. for bio noobs, blings and infestors. trade armies whenever you can and abuse ur mobility to not allow him to leave base.
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Didnt watch your replay, but in general the counter to a hardcore turtle is to expand all over the map. You'll have a huge income advantage that you can use to tech up to something better than baneling/roach.
Also, when your maxed against a turtle, dont forget UPGRADES. Almost any 3 - 3 zerg army will roflstomp almost any terran army.
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Hey guys, met some turtle terran/protoss and I simply expanded over the whole map, made broodlords and facerolled. ^^
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When any race turtles it is essentially giving up map control. All you need to do is take as many expands as possible and just drone up and tech up, by the time he moves out even if you just manage to hold off just remember the amount of bases you're on compared to him, he will also be close to mined out if not already so the important thing to do is keep the economical advantage you get when he turtles, if you are maxed out and he hasn't pushed then you can get upgrades and try some harass. If you are constantly scouting for bases he will not be able to expand and then you win the game.
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EPT
